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Readers' forum: Shame on LDS Church
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Point Of View | 8:43 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Christina,
I can appreciate that moral relativism is a hot fad right now. Unfortunately, some of us have had personal experiences with homosexuals that make it pretty clear that homosexuality is simply another form of sexual addiction, and that the whole gay rights movement is simply a desperate attempt to legitimize that addiction.
By all means, continue deluding yourself into thinking it's all about love and caring. That's exactly what they want you to think. It makes it sound so just and innocent, doesn't it?
You're not a free-thinker just because you think you're opinions aren't influenced by religion. It just means you've chosen a different lemming herd to fall in with.
I can appreciate that moral relativism is a hot fad right now. Unfortunately, some of us have had personal experiences with homosexuals that make it pretty clear that homosexuality is simply another form of sexual addiction, and that the whole gay rights movement is simply a desperate attempt to legitimize that addiction.
By all means, continue deluding yourself into thinking it's all about love and caring. That's exactly what they want you to think. It makes it sound so just and innocent, doesn't it?
You're not a free-thinker just because you think you're opinions aren't influenced by religion. It just means you've chosen a different lemming herd to fall in with.
Brandt | 9:30 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
In case you hadn't noticed, the LDS chuch didn't write the laws of the
land. The millions of non-LDS Americans did. If you want to go to the source of
the 'shame', look at the vast majority of Americans who agree that
homosexual relations do not qualify as a marriage. This church, like most other
Christian and other churches, teaches that homosexual relations are immoral and
sinful. You will not be truly happy as long as you are in that kind of
relationship. You'll understand that one day, and I hope it's sooner
than later. If you really want to be happy, to have a relationship that will
bring you true joy, read what the prophets and apostles, ancient and modern,
have written and said on the topic and follow them.
Comments continue below
Ok let's just have people talk | 9:47 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
If there are truly people that want to "marry" pets or trees they will
have to take their issues up separately, but we are talking TWO PEOPLE. This is
the issue folks.
Old Coach | 9:53 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I appreciate all the thought in this but one fact remains which has not been
looked at. The LDS Church is bound to honor and sustain the law. Should the laws
of the land put into law something that any religion cannot accept there is a
hopeless dilemma. I have not seen anywhere that this church will not allow the
gay community to do what it wants. On the other hand this law will try to force
a Church to accept what it cannot. It could become against the law to not accept
any gay marriage which most churches cannot. What then? Now where is the shame?
And who is not allowing who their rights? Shame on anyone who does that! The
very thing this lady complains about as far as rights go is forced upon OTHER
people who have rights too.
Matt | 9:57 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
You say you are glad you left Utah but you still take the time to write letters
to Deseret News. That makes a lot of sense. Please stay in California while we
enjoy the slopes!
Civil, Moral, Devine | 10:18 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
It doesn't matter what religion you practise in this debate on
gay-marriage. If you believe a church is just a civil organization for people
to get together on Sunday and feel good, then you will say there is no place for
churches to intervene in this matter.
If you believe in a church that claims it is the moral "high ground" to protect a long standing institution that benefits society, then you may believe gay marriage is wrong, but you still may think is it pushy for churches to get in the way of legal issues.
If you believe in a church that is devinely appointed to relate to man the will of God, then there is no court, organization, or individual who can or should stand in your way to defend your beliefs that God had declared truth and mankind should abide by it for his own good.
If you believe in a church that claims it is the moral "high ground" to protect a long standing institution that benefits society, then you may believe gay marriage is wrong, but you still may think is it pushy for churches to get in the way of legal issues.
If you believe in a church that is devinely appointed to relate to man the will of God, then there is no court, organization, or individual who can or should stand in your way to defend your beliefs that God had declared truth and mankind should abide by it for his own good.
;0) | 10:34 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Peace! We not ones to judge there will be a day when it comes.
wsr | 10:45 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To answer "Please explain": take a look at what's going on in
California: not only has the state's supreme court turned over the majority
vote of the people who voted convincingly to keep the homosexual agenda out of
schools, they have helped support changes in laws that not only allow the
teaching of homosexuality as a normal lifestyle, it will become mandatory in all
public school levels.
Try to find out when your 1st grader is going to be subjected to a class on why it's OK to have two "mommies" or two "daddies" and you won't be able to find out. In fact, you may be subject to violating some statue that will land you in a class to get your mind right.
Not to mention that there are legal decisions requiring schools to allow either sex to use whichever rest room they feel most aligned. Boys in girls bathrooms and vice verse-it's about to become law.
So, the bottom line is this: loss of freedom and protection of basic fundamental rights, plus the spread of a practice which the vast majority of people throughout the entire world's history find to be disturbing and reprehensible.
Try to find out when your 1st grader is going to be subjected to a class on why it's OK to have two "mommies" or two "daddies" and you won't be able to find out. In fact, you may be subject to violating some statue that will land you in a class to get your mind right.
Not to mention that there are legal decisions requiring schools to allow either sex to use whichever rest room they feel most aligned. Boys in girls bathrooms and vice verse-it's about to become law.
So, the bottom line is this: loss of freedom and protection of basic fundamental rights, plus the spread of a practice which the vast majority of people throughout the entire world's history find to be disturbing and reprehensible.
Anonymous | 10:53 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"If there are truly people that want to "marry" pets or trees
they will have to take their issues up separately, but we are talking TWO
PEOPLE. This is the issue folks."
Civil marriage is a CONTRACT that must be signed by two consenting ADULTS. Why is that so hard to understand? Trees cannot sign nor can my dog nor can a child legally sign a contract. PLEASE, people. Keep this rational.
Civil marriage is a CONTRACT that must be signed by two consenting ADULTS. Why is that so hard to understand? Trees cannot sign nor can my dog nor can a child legally sign a contract. PLEASE, people. Keep this rational.
WELL SAID! | 10:53 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Re: Today's Connecticut Supreme Court ruling
"Interpreting our state constitutional provisions in accordance with firmly established equal protection principles leads inevitably to the conclusion that gay persons are entitled to marry the otherwise qualified same sex partner of their choice," Justice Richard N. Palmer wrote.
"To decide otherwise would require us to apply one set of constitutional principles to gay persons and another to all others," wrote Palmer.
THANK GOD FOR THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM THAT PROTECTS US ALL!
"Interpreting our state constitutional provisions in accordance with firmly established equal protection principles leads inevitably to the conclusion that gay persons are entitled to marry the otherwise qualified same sex partner of their choice," Justice Richard N. Palmer wrote.
"To decide otherwise would require us to apply one set of constitutional principles to gay persons and another to all others," wrote Palmer.
THANK GOD FOR THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM THAT PROTECTS US ALL!
For Christina V. Larsen | 11:11 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Christina -
While I respect your passion to fight for your beliefs, and particularly your courage to shed your faceless anonymity by signing your name to your opinion, it is clear that though wisdom and truth may be staring someone in the face so blatantly that they'd have to close their eyes not to see it, I refute your claim that the LDS church deserves scorn for supporting the passage of California's Proposition 8.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made it abundantly clear that passing Propositon 8 is not about hurting homosexuals, but rather about protecting the one true bastion of strength that any great nation depends upon; the family.
If you refuse to see that the practice of homosexual behavior in any form or fashion is immoral and destructive, after so many clear and logical arguments have been laid out in these Deseret News posts for months now, I cannot help you.
Jesus Christ has repeatedly warned in the scriptures and from prophets both ancient and modern that evil must be shunned because it leads to sorrow and ultimately, spiritual death, meaning, the eternal separation of our souls from God.
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
While I respect your passion to fight for your beliefs, and particularly your courage to shed your faceless anonymity by signing your name to your opinion, it is clear that though wisdom and truth may be staring someone in the face so blatantly that they'd have to close their eyes not to see it, I refute your claim that the LDS church deserves scorn for supporting the passage of California's Proposition 8.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made it abundantly clear that passing Propositon 8 is not about hurting homosexuals, but rather about protecting the one true bastion of strength that any great nation depends upon; the family.
If you refuse to see that the practice of homosexual behavior in any form or fashion is immoral and destructive, after so many clear and logical arguments have been laid out in these Deseret News posts for months now, I cannot help you.
Jesus Christ has repeatedly warned in the scriptures and from prophets both ancient and modern that evil must be shunned because it leads to sorrow and ultimately, spiritual death, meaning, the eternal separation of our souls from God.
Dan Maloy
Enid, OK
re: Thomas Bell | 11:12 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Yes, by all means, let's go back to traditional marriage where the union
was arranged by the parents with no input from the actual partners what-so-ever,
where the bride was treated as property and couldn't leave her husband no
matter how much he beat her.
re: Civil, Moral, Devine | 11:18 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The claim that allowing gay marriage is an "assault on traditional
families" is complete nonsense. Show me ONE heterosexual couple that will
divorce from allowing gay marriage?
If you do NOT believe that a church is appointed by God, that church should have no power over their actions. That's what the whole first amendment thing is all about. You can't dictate your beliefs to people who do not belong to your religion.
If you do NOT believe that a church is appointed by God, that church should have no power over their actions. That's what the whole first amendment thing is all about. You can't dictate your beliefs to people who do not belong to your religion.
Truth Justice & the American Way | 11:24 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Praise God and the Supreme Courts of Massachusetts, California and now
Connecticut
buckeye | 11:26 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Marriage is a contract with the state.
Sexual orientation does not take away the right to enter into such a contract with the state. We would have to change state constitutions to allow for discrimination based on sexual orientation to make it legal. Some states controlled by some churches would gladly to that. Utah is one of those states. Mormons there believe that they live in a theocracy. They don't.
Sexual orientation does not take away the right to enter into such a contract with the state. We would have to change state constitutions to allow for discrimination based on sexual orientation to make it legal. Some states controlled by some churches would gladly to that. Utah is one of those states. Mormons there believe that they live in a theocracy. They don't.
re: The Bible? | 11:37 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"I keep asking the question and in 250+ comments, no one has answered it.
What about the 12 passages in the OT and NT (that an amateur like me can find)
that state that homosexuality is a sin?"
They are seen as the superstitions of primitive bronze-age goat herders who didn't have true ethical systems to help them figure out real morality.
The Book of Leviticus should be renamed "101 reasons to kill your neighbor (and his goat)." The Bible says picking up sticks on the Sabbath is punishable by stoning. The Bible clearly shows God doesn't care about collateral damage as God repeatedly punishes entire civilizations for the "sins" of one man (example: the 10 plagues of Egypt).
The Biblical "God" is so horrific its absurd that people continue to point to the Bible as a source of "morality". This was the same "reasoning" that led to inquisitions, witch-hunts and countless other atrocities. Does anyone realize Hitler quoted the Bible in Mein Kampf to justify the Holocaust?
They are seen as the superstitions of primitive bronze-age goat herders who didn't have true ethical systems to help them figure out real morality.
The Book of Leviticus should be renamed "101 reasons to kill your neighbor (and his goat)." The Bible says picking up sticks on the Sabbath is punishable by stoning. The Bible clearly shows God doesn't care about collateral damage as God repeatedly punishes entire civilizations for the "sins" of one man (example: the 10 plagues of Egypt).
The Biblical "God" is so horrific its absurd that people continue to point to the Bible as a source of "morality". This was the same "reasoning" that led to inquisitions, witch-hunts and countless other atrocities. Does anyone realize Hitler quoted the Bible in Mein Kampf to justify the Holocaust?
nathandt | 11:52 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To Nature vs. Nurture: You say what matters is that we control our behavior,
and I agree. But why is it important to control certain things, like a short
temper, like a disposition to lie, cheat, or kill?
Why do we seek to control these things? Because they harm others, they take away others property, others rights, and others ability to choose.
Yet by banning same-sex marriage, we directly take away these very rights that we struggle to preserve.
The Plan of Salvation relies on the concept that we must allow people to choose to live they way they wish. They cannot be forced to come unto the Lord.
Why do we seek to control these things? Because they harm others, they take away others property, others rights, and others ability to choose.
Yet by banning same-sex marriage, we directly take away these very rights that we struggle to preserve.
The Plan of Salvation relies on the concept that we must allow people to choose to live they way they wish. They cannot be forced to come unto the Lord.
To GusTalwynd | 11:54 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Gus are you having a little trouble sticking to the point? How hilarious you
criticize Palen for "cherry picking" when you have the audacity to
dump your spew in the middle of a debate that has NOTHING to do with whatever
point you attempted to make.
Bundy | 11:55 a.m. Oct. 10, 2008
As far as the government is concerned marriage has nothing to do with love. It
is about providing rights in incentives to promote a legal arrangement that
benefits society. You don't get these extra rights for free. Shame on you
for chastising my church when you either don't understand the issue or
blatantly mischaracterize it in order to villify your opposition.
nathandt | 12:05 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To Dan Maloy: Please indicate how failing to pass Proposition 8 will make
families anywhere less strong. Please describe how it will destroy
anyone's heterosexual marriage. I have never had these questions
answered.
Please indicate why two adults, engaged in a consenting, informed romantic relationship is immoral or destructive, regardless of the genders of the adults involved.
I am not talking about pedophilia. I am not talking about promiscuous gay men that may contribute to the spread of Sexual Transmitted Disease. I am not talking about those addicted to pornography.
I am talking about loving, consenting adults. Please describe why this is dangerous. Thanks.
Please indicate why two adults, engaged in a consenting, informed romantic relationship is immoral or destructive, regardless of the genders of the adults involved.
I am not talking about pedophilia. I am not talking about promiscuous gay men that may contribute to the spread of Sexual Transmitted Disease. I am not talking about those addicted to pornography.
I am talking about loving, consenting adults. Please describe why this is dangerous. Thanks.
re: Civil, Moral, Devine | 12:08 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"It doesn't matter what religion you practise in this debate on
gay-marriage."
Yes it does as, believe it or not, there ARE religions out there that don't see homosexuality as this horrible evil you think it is. Some of them are even Christian sects that have decided that Biblical verses against homosexuality are merely a product of the irrational, superstitious, primitive time they were written, just like Biblical laws against making clothes from two kinds of threads, that a bat is a bird, insects have four legs or that a whale is a fish.
Yes it does as, believe it or not, there ARE religions out there that don't see homosexuality as this horrible evil you think it is. Some of them are even Christian sects that have decided that Biblical verses against homosexuality are merely a product of the irrational, superstitious, primitive time they were written, just like Biblical laws against making clothes from two kinds of threads, that a bat is a bird, insects have four legs or that a whale is a fish.
re Dan Maloy | 12:15 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has made it abundantly
clear that passing Propositon 8 is not about hurting homosexuals, but rather
about protecting the one true bastion of strength that any great nation depends
upon; the family."
And the church is clearly WRONG on that point. Allowing Gay marriage does NOTHING to "traditional families"
"If you refuse to see that the practice of homosexual behavior in any form or fashion is immoral and destructive, after so many clear and logical arguments have been laid out in these Deseret News posts for months now, I cannot help you."
There has not been one single logical argument posted from the anti-gay marriage side. "I believe" and "the church/Bible says so" are NOT logical arguments.
And the church is clearly WRONG on that point. Allowing Gay marriage does NOTHING to "traditional families"
"If you refuse to see that the practice of homosexual behavior in any form or fashion is immoral and destructive, after so many clear and logical arguments have been laid out in these Deseret News posts for months now, I cannot help you."
There has not been one single logical argument posted from the anti-gay marriage side. "I believe" and "the church/Bible says so" are NOT logical arguments.
Chris | 12:24 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Laguna Beach is a nice place; I live in Utah but I wish I lived on the beach.
I hope someday to get down that way. I picture heaven being like Laguna Beach.
You are courageous to share your opinion on the matter. Hopefully someday we
can all agree on the matter and in the mean time treat others with respect. In
my opinion, The New Testament is the best book on earth concerning the reality
of the battle between the flesh and the spirit and I am LDS. We all should read
the New Testament more.
it is what it is... | 12:28 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
LET IT BE!
Georgia in Napa | 12:29 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To Justice | 2:18 p.m. Oct. 9, 2008
Where can a person go to find the text of the California Supreme Court Decision?
I appreciate the rational way you presented the real issue. It makes sense.
You said "According to the California Supreme Court, this issue is the same issue that blacks faced during the civil rights movement circa 1960's. Segregationists claimed that keeping blacks separate from whites, but providing "equal" facilities, was not a violation of the US Constitution "equal protection". After several decades of obvious and blatant discrimination carried out in the name of this "separate but equal" lie, the US Supreme Court ruled that separate is unavoidably UNequal.
Based on that precedent, the California Supreme Court did their job and ruled that Proposition 22, passed by Californians in 2000, violated the same principles by trying to create a "separate but equal" marriage status for gays. Just as it placed blacks in a second-class status as citizens, the "separate but equal" lie is now trying to do the same thing to gays.
That does help. I need to learn more before I vote.
Where can a person go to find the text of the California Supreme Court Decision?
I appreciate the rational way you presented the real issue. It makes sense.
You said "According to the California Supreme Court, this issue is the same issue that blacks faced during the civil rights movement circa 1960's. Segregationists claimed that keeping blacks separate from whites, but providing "equal" facilities, was not a violation of the US Constitution "equal protection". After several decades of obvious and blatant discrimination carried out in the name of this "separate but equal" lie, the US Supreme Court ruled that separate is unavoidably UNequal.
Based on that precedent, the California Supreme Court did their job and ruled that Proposition 22, passed by Californians in 2000, violated the same principles by trying to create a "separate but equal" marriage status for gays. Just as it placed blacks in a second-class status as citizens, the "separate but equal" lie is now trying to do the same thing to gays.
That does help. I need to learn more before I vote.
A former Californian | 12:32 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Why does it hurt my family to have gay people marry? Simple. I don't think
anyone REALLY wants their kids to grow up to be gay. It would be a hard life for
them and for the parents to watch them go through. When society accepts gay
marriage, it's sending a message to my kids that it's OK to choose
being gay when you're at a confused stage of life and you aren't sure
what you want or you think the opposite sex isn't working out for you. I
don't want people sending that message to my kids and confusing them about
who they really are and what choices could make them happy in their future.
Eternal Perspective | 12:37 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Marriage, or sealing by those who have authority from God, religious - not
governmental, is God's design for eternal procreation.
Procreation happens between beings of opposite sex.
God's design for sex to be pleasurable and bonding (when fidelity is practiced) encourages relationships to be long lasting to help in the rearing of the children born in that relationship (remember I am refering to eternal not temporal relationships, so adoption is not a consideration here). Homosexuality is a function of an imperfect physical body - pheremones not attaching to the proper receptors. In the case of its natural occurance, homosexuality causes sexual attraction between same sex individuals. Physical imperfections are temporal not eternal. In some cases Homosexuality is arrived at through mental conditioning (environmental factors) and not through natural (born into a person) physical abnormalities. In either case it is contrary to the purposes of reproduction temporal or eternal. Religion does have a place in encouraging people to be in a position of eternal happiness and increase. Homosexual marriage does not provide for that eternal perspective.
Procreation happens between beings of opposite sex.
God's design for sex to be pleasurable and bonding (when fidelity is practiced) encourages relationships to be long lasting to help in the rearing of the children born in that relationship (remember I am refering to eternal not temporal relationships, so adoption is not a consideration here). Homosexuality is a function of an imperfect physical body - pheremones not attaching to the proper receptors. In the case of its natural occurance, homosexuality causes sexual attraction between same sex individuals. Physical imperfections are temporal not eternal. In some cases Homosexuality is arrived at through mental conditioning (environmental factors) and not through natural (born into a person) physical abnormalities. In either case it is contrary to the purposes of reproduction temporal or eternal. Religion does have a place in encouraging people to be in a position of eternal happiness and increase. Homosexual marriage does not provide for that eternal perspective.
Question | 12:45 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
What if "society" started to agree that it was ok to murder. I would
expect a church to fight tooth and nail for something that is fundamental in its
teachings. No one has to agree with what that church believes, but they have
the right to talk to anyone they want to in regards to a certain position. We
call that freedom of speech. No one can take that right away.
who someone should love | 12:58 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The fight is not about whether or not someone has a right to choose who they
love.
Marriage is an institution that is the foundation of society. Trying to pretend that this issue is simply about the freedom to love who you're attracted to is blind to the facts.
Read the literature and research that's out there in the field of sociology. And I'm not talking about research done in Utah. The evidence from around the world is overwhelming that the influence of a mother and father in a committed loving relationship provides the best foundation for raising healthy, responsible, contributing children.
The Church has a moral responsibility to protect an institution that they believe is sanctioned by God for the good of all mankind. You may disagree with that teaching, but you can hardly fault an organization with those beliefs for standing up for them.
Marriage is an institution that is the foundation of society. Trying to pretend that this issue is simply about the freedom to love who you're attracted to is blind to the facts.
Read the literature and research that's out there in the field of sociology. And I'm not talking about research done in Utah. The evidence from around the world is overwhelming that the influence of a mother and father in a committed loving relationship provides the best foundation for raising healthy, responsible, contributing children.
The Church has a moral responsibility to protect an institution that they believe is sanctioned by God for the good of all mankind. You may disagree with that teaching, but you can hardly fault an organization with those beliefs for standing up for them.
To: Re: The Bible | 1:01 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Well, at least someone finally tried to answer the question.
Obviously, if you do not believe in the Bible or in God, I can see how you have arrived at your conclusions.
You mention ethics, and frankly, I don't know how we can have ethics without God. What we've come down to is, "if it feels right, it must be right." And I don't buy that.
But thank you for helping me make my point. Clearly, if someone DOES read and accept the Bible, I really don't see how he/she can wonder why a church would be opposed to gay marriage.
Obviously, if you do not believe in the Bible or in God, I can see how you have arrived at your conclusions.
You mention ethics, and frankly, I don't know how we can have ethics without God. What we've come down to is, "if it feels right, it must be right." And I don't buy that.
But thank you for helping me make my point. Clearly, if someone DOES read and accept the Bible, I really don't see how he/she can wonder why a church would be opposed to gay marriage.
Your religion | 1:51 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
and some others will never agree that homosexuality is not a "sin" and
that it is something to "overcome". It is by most in the LDS church
the same way alchoholism is and that is: "Love the sinner not the
sin". You do not understand that many homosexuals do not consider
themselves "broken". With this in mind we can probably agree to
disagree. But going further than that you are eventually going to have to agree
to disagree with the government. The government in many countries have
separated this issue from them and religion and so will the United States have
to. You cannot discriminate against a minority and whether you admit it or not,
you are.
Stay out of ... | 1:55 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
I keep reading, "stay out of my bedroom."
To that I say, "stay out of my school room." Stop teaching my kids that being gay is not a sin and is natural.
"Stay out of my place of worship." I think it is crystal clear how God feels about homosexuality. If you do not agree, that's your right. But stop trying to gag my church against our own conscience.
"Stay out of my wallet." Stop trying to use more of my tax money to fight AIDS, 69% percent of the cases are caused by male to male relations. (And that IS a fact, and you can look it up).
To that I say, "stay out of my school room." Stop teaching my kids that being gay is not a sin and is natural.
"Stay out of my place of worship." I think it is crystal clear how God feels about homosexuality. If you do not agree, that's your right. But stop trying to gag my church against our own conscience.
"Stay out of my wallet." Stop trying to use more of my tax money to fight AIDS, 69% percent of the cases are caused by male to male relations. (And that IS a fact, and you can look it up).
Jerry | 2:04 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
When God gave Adam and Eve (a man and a woman) the commandment to replenish the
earth he wanted them to have children. That is the primary reason for
marriage and I don't believe a relationship between two people of the same
gender would be able to accomplish this primary function. I can think of no
reason why two people of the same gender should be allowed by law to have a
relationship that God and Civil Laws give to a man and a woman. I will forever
raise my voice against such a relationship however, no one listens to me because
I am just an average person who obeys the laws of God and the Laws of the Land.
Boise/Pam | 2:11 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
You can rationalize til the cows come home. Gay marriage is immoral. What part
of the Bible don't you understand.
Loved or Not Loved? | 2:51 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
God gave Christ to the world because of love. His gospel was a gospel of love
and forgiveness. He went about doing good, healing the sick and the afflicted.
But yet, the man who showed us how to show true love was crucified because he
spoke the unpopular truth.
If you think Christ would teach tolerance to Gay Marriage you'd be wrong. He would speak out against it just as he does any other sin just as he did in times of old. And Christ would be hated for his teachings now just as he was hated in times past.
But let me say this. Sin is sin in God's eyes. He does not allow it. Sin plagues us all and only Christ can redeem us. His call is the same to all: "Come unto me and deny yourself of all ungodliness."
If you think Christ would teach tolerance to Gay Marriage you'd be wrong. He would speak out against it just as he does any other sin just as he did in times of old. And Christ would be hated for his teachings now just as he was hated in times past.
But let me say this. Sin is sin in God's eyes. He does not allow it. Sin plagues us all and only Christ can redeem us. His call is the same to all: "Come unto me and deny yourself of all ungodliness."
Nuff Said | 3:10 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
With logic and intellects like that, I can see why some of you remain Mormon. I
just wish you would stay in your little world and quit trying to push your
nonsense on the rest of us here in California.
DREX | 3:17 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
On the contrary, Ms. Larsen--the LDS church should be praised for having the
courage and conviction to stand up for what is right. The type of attitude on
display here is exactly the same as saying in 1860, "Shame on Lincoln for
desiring to take someone's 'property' from them! After all, they
bought and paid for their slaves! It is their right to keep them!" The
LDS church believes today as Lincoln did so many years ago--no one can "say
that people have a right to do wrong." I say, "HURRAY for the LDS
Church!"
to Georgia in Napa | 3:19 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"Where can a person go to find the text of the California Supreme Court
Decision?"
"Marriage" is a right in the State of California. Some relevant excerpts from the CA Supreme Court decision:
���
���"One of the core elements of the right to establish an officially recognized family that is embodied in the California constitutional right to marry is a couple�s right to have their family relationship accorded dignity and respect equal to that accorded other officially recognized families, and assigning a different designation for the family relationship of same-sex couples while reserving the historic designation of �marriage� exclusively for opposite-sex couples poses at least a serious risk of denying the family relationship of same-sex couples such equal dignity and respect."
���
���"...permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite-sex couples of any rights and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage..."
���
��-cont-
"Marriage" is a right in the State of California. Some relevant excerpts from the CA Supreme Court decision:
���
���"One of the core elements of the right to establish an officially recognized family that is embodied in the California constitutional right to marry is a couple�s right to have their family relationship accorded dignity and respect equal to that accorded other officially recognized families, and assigning a different designation for the family relationship of same-sex couples while reserving the historic designation of �marriage� exclusively for opposite-sex couples poses at least a serious risk of denying the family relationship of same-sex couples such equal dignity and respect."
���
���"...permitting same-sex couples access to the designation of marriage will not deprive opposite-sex couples of any rights and will not alter the legal framework of the institution of marriage..."
���
��-cont-
Bear Rug | 3:25 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
The LDS Church has never told us who we could or could not love. There are men
that I love . . . as good, good friends, and mentors. There are women that I
love, that aren't my wife. The distinction is NEVER made between love and
sexuality. While I love men, that does not mean that I want to have sex with
them. The same for women that I love. Christ loved men . . . He loved his
apostles, He loved sinners. That love had nothing to do with physical
expression.
The big problem that I see with the gay community, is that when I see photographs of their behaviour at a gay-pride celebration, I don't see ANY love evident. All I see is debauchery, sexual deviancy, and filth. The other thing I see is that sexual intercourse, while it brings a husband and wife together, emotionally and spiritually, it's primary function is to propagate the species. Even according to Darwin and the theory of Evolution, homosexuals are wrong. Their behaviour is self-limiting in an evolutionary sense, because they are not passing their genes onto their offspring. When I say "their offspring," I mean THEIR OFFSPRING!
The big problem that I see with the gay community, is that when I see photographs of their behaviour at a gay-pride celebration, I don't see ANY love evident. All I see is debauchery, sexual deviancy, and filth. The other thing I see is that sexual intercourse, while it brings a husband and wife together, emotionally and spiritually, it's primary function is to propagate the species. Even according to Darwin and the theory of Evolution, homosexuals are wrong. Their behaviour is self-limiting in an evolutionary sense, because they are not passing their genes onto their offspring. When I say "their offspring," I mean THEIR OFFSPRING!
i'm | 3:27 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
addicted to jello
re Question at 12:45 | 3:30 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
That's QUITE a stretch to equate legalizing Murder with a Gay Couple being
allowed to civilly marry. Amazing reading the fears and conclusions people here
are jumping to.
nathandt | 3:40 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To A former Californian: You say that if society accepts homosexuality, then
your children will be confused about what is right and wrong, and you do not
like that.
I was just wondering how you deal with the fact that society accepts the sale of alcohol as normal? Are you constantly having to bat bottles of whiskey out of your children's hands?
My guess is that you do what most parents do: You educate them yourself on what you believe to be right and wrong.
If you try to shield your children from the world, you will fail. And when they do realize the reality of this earth, they will only be unprepared to face what they find.
I was just wondering how you deal with the fact that society accepts the sale of alcohol as normal? Are you constantly having to bat bottles of whiskey out of your children's hands?
My guess is that you do what most parents do: You educate them yourself on what you believe to be right and wrong.
If you try to shield your children from the world, you will fail. And when they do realize the reality of this earth, they will only be unprepared to face what they find.
Irony | 3:41 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Re: Jerry
News flash...Adam and Eve lived together...
News flash...Adam and Eve lived together...
John Pack Lambert | 3:46 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Contrary to what was stated earlier marriage is not limited to two adults.
Every state allows marriages to be entered by minors and several states allow in cetrain situations for minors to marry without the consent of their parents.
Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. I do not want to see genderless marriage taugth in the schools, and that will happen if proposition 8 does not pass.
Vote yes on eight
Every state allows marriages to be entered by minors and several states allow in cetrain situations for minors to marry without the consent of their parents.
Marriage is a union between a man and a woman. I do not want to see genderless marriage taugth in the schools, and that will happen if proposition 8 does not pass.
Vote yes on eight
Irony II | 3:49 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Re: Dan Malloy
Ny neighbors are gay....does that mean I'm going to become Gay?
My other neighbor is Mormon...does that mean I'm going to become Morman also.
Looks like I'm going to become a Gay Mormon...just because Gays are allowed to marry and because Mormons are allowed to procelyte...
As Spock would say... "Illogiical"
Ny neighbors are gay....does that mean I'm going to become Gay?
My other neighbor is Mormon...does that mean I'm going to become Morman also.
Looks like I'm going to become a Gay Mormon...just because Gays are allowed to marry and because Mormons are allowed to procelyte...
As Spock would say... "Illogiical"
YBU | 3:50 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
"The big problem that I see with the gay community, is that when I see
photographs of their behaviour at a gay-pride celebration, I don't see ANY
love evident. All I see is debauchery, sexual deviancy, and filth."
That is the same thing I see at Marti Gras. And yet we allow heterosexuals to marry anyway.
I promise you there are many gay couples that have spent years together and love to be able to make their union legal.
"The other thing I see is that sexual intercourse, while it brings a husband and wife together, emotionally and spiritually, it's primary function is to propagate the species."
So, anyone couple that has married and is not going to have children, whether by choice or by some physical handicap, should not be able to marry either? Just because we cannot have children "naturally" does not mean that we cannot marry unless you are going to start having different rules for some Americans and other rules for those you deem worthy. That is about the most un-American idea that I have heard.
That is the same thing I see at Marti Gras. And yet we allow heterosexuals to marry anyway.
I promise you there are many gay couples that have spent years together and love to be able to make their union legal.
"The other thing I see is that sexual intercourse, while it brings a husband and wife together, emotionally and spiritually, it's primary function is to propagate the species."
So, anyone couple that has married and is not going to have children, whether by choice or by some physical handicap, should not be able to marry either? Just because we cannot have children "naturally" does not mean that we cannot marry unless you are going to start having different rules for some Americans and other rules for those you deem worthy. That is about the most un-American idea that I have heard.
nathandt | 3:52 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To Eternal Perspective, Jerry, Boise/Pam, Loved or Not Loved?, and others: You
may believe that God has a Plan for all of Us. You may believe that
homosexuality is an abomination. But you and I do not have the right to sit in
the Lord's Judgment Seat and take away the Free Agency of others.
We must allow our brothers and sisters to live their lives and make decisions that they deem fit for them.
The church's role is to try to bring them to come to the flock. Voluntarily. Of their own free will.
Beyond this, this particular Proposition is a secular issue. Not all citizens are Mormon. Not all Christians have the same interpretation of the Bible.
Some sects believe these marriages to be right and good, and we, in turn, have stated: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
We must allow our brothers and sisters to live their lives and make decisions that they deem fit for them.
The church's role is to try to bring them to come to the flock. Voluntarily. Of their own free will.
Beyond this, this particular Proposition is a secular issue. Not all citizens are Mormon. Not all Christians have the same interpretation of the Bible.
Some sects believe these marriages to be right and good, and we, in turn, have stated: We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
Irony III | 3:58 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
Re: All you Christina haters...
Obviously all of you are LDS...
Have you read the hate in your responces?
You sure you're not from the KKK???
Examples of someone who's church I would want to join, YOU ARE NOT!!!
Obviously all of you are LDS...
Have you read the hate in your responces?
You sure you're not from the KKK???
Examples of someone who's church I would want to join, YOU ARE NOT!!!
nathandt | 4:00 p.m. Oct. 10, 2008
To John Pack Lambert: There are things taught in schools all the time that are
not congruent with LDS beliefs or standards.
As stated above in my response to "A former Californian", the more you try to shield your children from these realities, the more curiosity you will instill in them regarding them and the more damage you will do.
Your children will find out about these things one day in any case, and it is your job as a parent to let them know your beliefs on the matter, and why you believe them.
As stated above in my response to "A former Californian", the more you try to shield your children from these realities, the more curiosity you will instill in them regarding them and the more damage you will do.
Your children will find out about these things one day in any case, and it is your job as a parent to let them know your beliefs on the matter, and why you believe them.
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