Deseret News | Shame on LDS Church

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Readers' forum: Shame on LDS Church

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SP--Hateful Utahns | 2:06 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

RE: Ken | 3:25 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

"I wish the hateful Californias who have posted here would mind there own business and leave the church alone."

Lol. It really should read...

I wish the hateful Utahns who have donated money to support Prop 8 would mind there own business and leave California alone.

SP--Liberty & Justice For All | 2:10 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

RE: Utah on my mind | 2:29 p.m. Oct. 11, 2008

You said, "People, Utah was founded by LDS Church. If you don't like it, leave. Simple as that."

Well, this country was founded on protection from government and church and ...with liberty and justice for all.

If you don't like it, leave. Simple as that.

Keiji | 2:20 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I'm glad that even in a political world where it is not politically correct, that the church stands strongly for it's beliefs.

Comments continue below

Good choice | 3:51 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I am very glad you left Utah and moved to a wicked state. You should feel right at home.

What does Arnold say? | 4:09 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

"I believe strongly in the law that we have right now in California which respects domestic partnership rights and I think that that's a very good law. I believe in equal rights absolutely and in protecting that."
- California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger

Perhaps, BUT | 8:06 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Governor Schwarzenegger OPPOSES Proposition 8 and has publicly said so.

Anonymous | 9:13 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

California Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger opposes Proposition 8.

April 11, Governor Schwarzenegger was asked by Log Cabin Republican resident Patrick Sammon about Proposition 8, Schwarzenegger said "I will always be there to fight against that."

A month later, Schwarzenegger hailed the idea of marriage equality as a boon for the California economy. ï¿½You know, Iï¿½m wishing everyone good luck with their marriages and I hope that Californiaï¿½s economy is booming because everyone is going to come here and get married.ï¿½

Southern CAL Porter Rockwell | 9:16 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Hello Christina, if you saw the vice presidential debates, I guess you will be leaving the United States of America since both candidates do not support gay marriage.

Anonymous | 9:19 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Another California Republican leader opposing Proposition 8 is Ward Connerly. ï¿½For anyone to say that this is an issue for people who are gay and that this isnï¿½t about civil rights is sadly mistaken,ï¿½ Connerly said. ï¿½If you really believe in freedom and limited government, to be intellectually consistent and honest you have to oppose efforts of the majority to impose their will on people.ï¿½

Ward Connerly, who is African American, moved to California in the 1950s because at the time, it was the only State where he could marry his wife, who is white.

Re: The Duece | 10:13 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I think the Duece's post last night is what this is all about and I'd like to see a response from you on the left side of this argument.

You promised this would not happen and it already has. You complain about the LDS "shoving our religion down your throats." I am not aware of this ever happening. One who is not interested in our message merely needs to say, "no thanks."

On the other hand, you want to force us by law to accept your beliefs.

It will be a cold day when I'd let my 5-year old attend the wedding of two women. In fact, it would have to happen over my dead body.

Mike B. | 11:18 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Equality and rights are not interchangeable nor are they plug-in words that can be used to explain something like marriage. Marriage was instituted by our Heavenly Father. Read the Bible and see what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. They allowed and accepted a lifestyle that was unnatural and against the commandments. Gays have the right to choose whether or not to follow our Heavenly Father's commandments or not. We all have challenges in this life to overcome. Some of us choose using our agency give to us by God to submit to our basic instincts and give away their opportunity to return to our Heavenly Father and enjoy Eternal Life. Marriage is constituted by go for procreation, not recreation. We should all love each other as Jesus Christ loved all of mankind. Do not ask for something that is wrong and immoral because society has accepted and now seems to embrace. Does homosexual activity hurt societies? We only have to look to History and see which civilizations have fallen and are now nothing more than words written in the History books or the bible.

Southern Utah | 11:21 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

I would be ashamed if the LDS church said nothing. I believe that marriage is between a man and woman. This does not stop me from loving my siblings who choose to be in gay relationships. I love and respect them dearly, and I would hope they would do the same in respects to my personal beliefs.

Anonymous | 11:43 a.m. Oct. 12, 2008

The next Presiendt of the US, Barak Obama opposes California Proposition 8.

In April,2008 Sen. Obama wrote to the Alice B. Tokals Democratic Club in California that he supported extending "fully equal rights and benefits to same-sex couples under both state and federal law. . .And that is why I oppose the divisive and discriminatory efforts to amend the California Constitution, and similar efforts to amend the U.S. Constitution or those of other states."

David | 12:51 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

While Obama claims to opposes Proposition 8, he has many times stated that he opposes gay marriage. Yes, he supports "fully equal rights and benefits" but homosexuals already have that with civil unions, which Obama does support. I would find it hysterically amusing if it were not so pathetically sad that so few Democrats actually know what Obama is saying. Again, Obama believes in Civil Unions, but opposes gay marriage. While he pretends to oppose Prop 8 using words that states he opposes it, he doesn't go far enough. Again, he states that he wants homosexuals to have "equal right and benefits" but that is accomplished by what he stated he agreed with and that is the Civil Union only. He is no different in his beliefs than John McCain....you only have been duped by Obama rhetoric.

Larry | 12:52 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Hate and even more hate. This is based on hate. Hate and religion...hummm? They go together so well.

Prop 8 people Put Money In Mouth | 1:09 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Look, it's pretty obvious that you people who supports prop 8 are going to lose and going to be sore losers.

We'll hear of foul play, armaggedon and what not will happen, the beginning of the end will come upon the world and all the other petty and sore losers tend to behave.

So, why don't all of you prop 8 people help the LDS church by putting money where your mouth is and sell your house, max out your credit cards, and then open more, leave your jobs and go door to door, get your mother, father, grandparents to withdraw money from their retirement accounts, by lots of TV and newspaper ads, and help the world with getting rid of gays once and for all.

Please, don't just talk about, if you really believe in this, put your money into, and I mean not a dollar, by sacrifice your entire finances, including your kid's college funds.

God forbids, your kids will go to college with married gays, amongst, surely that's the end of the world.

Go ahead, unless you've done anything that I mentioned, you're just hypocrites who are all talk, no action.

MONEY IN YOUR MOUTH, PLEASE!

Anonymous | 1:31 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

It's funny how many people refer to the Bible as a defense for bigotry and prejudice. The Bible shouldn't be used for public policy. Government is secular; they rely on the Constitution and the rule of law. Mormons can rely on the Bible and Book of Mormon for their policies, but they shouldn't try and force those policies and beliefs on those who disagree. Using the Bible for public policy is an interesting idea considering the wide array of contradictions found in the book. The Bible condones slavery, polygamy, violence....yeah, let's use the Bible to help us make laws.

Anonymous | 2:30 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Obama may oppose same sex marriages, but he also opposes state and federal constitutional bans on them. In the Senate he voted against the proposed federal anti-gay-marriage amendment. He also opposes California's Proposition 8.

To: Prop 8 People, 1:09PM | 2:44 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

You know, your rant against those that don't believe homosexual "marriage" is wise reveals what the practice of homosexuality has made you....

bitter.

There's no shame here | 3:24 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

The Church of Jesus Christ of latter-Day Saints has defined marriage between a man and a woman as ordained of God and the family as essential to his plan.

"...we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and modern prophets."

ï¿½We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of societyï¿½

ï¿½The Family: A Proclamation to the World -1995ï¿½

When same sex marriage is accepted by society it will inevitably bring about disintegration of the family unit as defined by God.

To anonymous | 4:57 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Obama claims that he opposes gay marriage, yet opposes the amendment opposing gay marriage makes him:
A. Wishy-washy, and explains why he holds the record for not voting "for" or "against" anything, but instead "present." He seems incapable of decision instead spouting popular rhetoric signifying nothing. If that isn't reason enough not to vote for him, I don't know what is a good enough reason.

or

B. A liar

So which is it?

I oppose bottled water but I also oppose doing anything to stop water from being bottled.

Do Obama's conflicting words surprise me? No, they are typical since again, he holds the record in voting present rather than to make a real decision.

Hate? | 5:45 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

The word "hate" gets thrown around pretty loosely on here (example, "Larry," see above).

Hate is a pretty strong word. I don't think it pertains to not agreeing with someone or taking an opposing viewpoint.

Hate is burning down people's houses, trying to kill them, doing everything possible to destroy someone.

Just because I decline my young son's request for approval for something I don't agree with doesn't mean I hate him.

Believe me, if I "hated" you, you'd know it!

Anonymous | 5:56 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

A church blaming the disintegration of its families on gay couples who have nothing to do with that church would be just plain silly, if that scapegoating were not a rationalization used to deny same-sex couples equal protection under the law.

Blaming gay couples for the non-existent downfall of your families is the essence of bearing false witness against your neighbor.

Inspired NOT | 8:16 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

President to be Obama is a politician, just like your precious Mitt Romney. Don't forget Romney supported gay marriage and abortion to get elected Governor of Mass. then miraculously converted when he was running for president. Obama is really for gay marriage but has to say he isn't just to get elected by the morons in America. Once elected, he will "soften" his stance even further. Sort of like the way the mormon church flip flopped on blacks and the priesthood. No difference.

Aaron | 9:04 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Anonymous at 5:56,

The "proclamation on the family" does not refer to disintegration of only LDS families, but to all families in society.

The Proclamation was addressed to the world and not just the LDS church.

Moreover, It's sole purpose is to emphasize the sacredness of marriage between a man and woman and the raising of children within that structure. which if undermined by society will bring about it's destruction.
It's a prophecy which can either be taken seriously or ignored.

Irony | 9:21 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

When the Church was the group the practiced a different form of marriage, they fought to protect their right to marry how they wanted. Senator Smoot made a successful attempt to keep the Congress from attempting to amend the Constitution adding a ban on polygamy. Now, the Church is making an intense effort to change the Constitution of California to protect the form of marriage they currently believe in. It's ironic that the Church wants to be left alone when it comes to how they practice their beliefs, but they can't leave others alone. The Church gets to choose who it allows to marry in it's temples. Changing the definition of marriage to allow same gender couples the right to marry won't force the Church to marry them. The Church gets to do what it wants in it's temples, which is the only form of marriage that really counts to Mormons, so why doesn't the Church worry about how it conducts it's internal affairs and allow those with different beliefs to act differently?

Re: Anonymous @5:56 | 9:27 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

The LDS Church does not teach that gay marriage will help disintegrate its families. It teaches that gay marriage will help weaken the family on a worldwide perspective, just like divorce and abortion, and guess what? It's already happening around the world where gay marriage is legal. Rights are being taken away, traditional families are becoming less and less frequent, and religion is becoming a thing of the past.

Actually, what it really does to LDS couples who believe in following the Prophet is that it strengthens our families, and will for eternity. In turning to the Lord and His prophets, we'll just solidify those beliefs and practices that will help us earn our eternal goal.

But that is not the point of opposing this measure. The point is that we, as a society, don't WANT our society to slowly crumble. It's already well on its way, but we certainly don't want to give it another kick downhill! We have to live here too, remember.

Anonymous | 9:29 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

It is possible for someone to oppose same-sex marriages without supporting laws that deny same-sex couples the freedom to marry. The Mormon Church has this same option. Unfortunately, the Mormon Church's leadership has chosen to use the force of law to impose their beliefs on non-believers.

Anonymous | 10:27 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

The state with the lowest divorce rate in the US is Massachusetts, where same sex marriages have been recognized for 4 years. At latest count Massachusetts had a divorce rate of 2.4 per 1,000 population.

The rate for Texas was 4.1, the highest. Utahï¿½s divorce rate in 2007 reached its lowest point in 40 years in 2007 -- at 3.5 divorces per thousand people. That's still higher than the national average of 3.6.

The Netherlands, the first nation to recognize same sex marriages, has a divorce rate of 2.1 per thousand. Canada which also recognizes same sex marriages has a divorce rate of 2.5 per thousand.

None of these statistics support the assertion that legal recognition of same-sex marriages harms anyone's family.

Alex | 10:28 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

"Shame on the LDS Church for giving misleading information to its members and the public at large through this and other newspapers."

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..................

To Hate? | 11:52 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

"Hate is a pretty strong word.......

Hate is burning down people's houses, trying to kill them, doing everything possible to destroy someone.

Just because I decline my young son's request for approval for something I don't agree with doesn't mean I hate him.

Believe me, if I "hated" you, you'd know it!"

Well, you see, there is not just a black and white interpretation of hate. Your version of hate is like the sky is either sunny or raining, it's blazing hot or frozen cold, with nothing in between.

Therefore, one can hate another, but not burn houses down, since hatred can be hidden from view, and not so obviously present, even though it's definitely there.

I hate Palin's very childish way of speaking, makes you feel dumber when you listen to her, and the country caught it when she was interviewed by Couric, as Palin showed the lack of depth when she told Couric that she had plenty of foreign policy experience because Alaska is between 2 countries.

But I won't be going to Alaska to go after her house or her family. Yet, I still hate her lies and false attacks about Obama being a terrorist.

OC | 11:53 p.m. Oct. 12, 2008

Same sex marriage was never considered to be a right by any political thinker or our founding fathers. If they thought society was going to become this corupt or that a homosexual agenda was ever going to happen they would have written it into the Constitution. They never thought our judges would be overthrowing the will of the people. If you read the Constitution the supreme court jusices were never given power to do that. Voting yes on prop 8 just restores what has always been right. Don't let judges over rule the will of the people. Vote yes on prop 8.

OC | 12:00 a.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Obama says he is against gay marriage. If he says he is against prop 8 then he is even more confused than I thought he was. He probably doesn't understand the issue. I think he has that problem on most issues. Either way the major presidential and vice presidential candidates say they are opposed to gay marriage. So vote for prop 8.

Kari | 2:35 p.m. Oct. 13, 2008

Why is the "sacred institution of marriage" any more sacred for heterosexual couples than homosexual ones? The failure rate (divorce)for both is comparable--50%. If the only criteria for favoring one legal pairing over another were that the one pairing could produce offspring and the other not...why then do we allow infertile hetero couples their nuptual rights? The committment that marriage gives a relationship should be important to a stable family unit whether that family unit be gay or straight. We should treat our gay brothers and sisters with the same respect we afford our straight ones. The LDS church may wish to deny equal rights to "the least of these, thy brethren" but be assured, Christ would not.

Geotopia | 3:34 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

Maybe what is being overlooked is that in 2000, the people voted on the matter. In 2007, the courts overturned the will of the people. I'm not into democracy or anything like that, but I'm concerned that 9 robed persons think they knew better than the majority of Californians. So, let's say we let stand the current ruling. Gays can marry. Fine, they will do what they want anyway. But what happens when the court further expands fiat and starts telling the churches who they can and cannot marry? They overruled the California electorate, what's to stop them from overturning constitutional protections. Maybe they will unilaterally decide that a Church has no constitutional protection to decide who they can and cannot marry. Will the LDS church be ordered to allow anyone the court decides into its temples? Will the Catholic church be required to ordain to their priesthood whoever the court decides? There's a lot more at stake here than two boys or two girls wanting state endorsement for a relationship that can neither create a family, nor truly fulfill the nurturing requirements to which our children are entitled.

Kari | 7:26 p.m. Oct. 17, 2008

Geotopia, we hear it again...the suggestion that a homosexual coupling cannot create a family and should thus be excluded from equal participation in the marriage ritual. Infertile heterosexual couples can certainly be a family, albeit a family incapable of producing offspring, but a family none the less. The Mormon and Catholic churches have every right to continue their prohibition on marrying same sex couples. No one is suggesting that they be forced to do otherwise. That's what separation of church and state is all about. It's just a shame that the churches don't feel the same compunction to stop meddling in the affairs of state.

This is first and foremost a civil rights issue no less important than that which led to equal rights for racial minorities in this country. If the California Supreme Court over-ruled the electorate through it's capacity and it's mandate to protect the civil rights of all it's citizens, this minority in particular--then so be it! That's their job, they are expected to intercede in such matters to protect minorities from the tyranny of the majority!

JSwim | 3:14 p.m. Oct. 18, 2008

I have read through these 10 long pages. Here is what I have to say.

1) The LDS Church can show support for prop 8.

2) The LDS Church has stated that "We don't want our children growing up learning that gay marriage is ok." Essentially this means they believe the best way to live a life is by ignoring reality.

3) The LDS Church has no evidence outside of scriptures to support them.

4) Mormons seem paranoid about the idea of gay marriage.

5) It is not surprising mormons are against it, since they have a long-standing record of intolerance of minorities.

6) Church and State are separated, however Church's can fund campaigns that are not in law.

7) Most of the leadership is done within the bubble of utah(where I live), that way the LDS Church feels protected from the "weirdos".

8) If Prop 8 Fails, this story will just get more interesting.

Former Utahn, now Californian | 9:54 p.m. Oct. 31, 2008

AND I LOVE both states. I was raised Mormon but have always struggled with inequality in the church. I think it's a great institution that teaches wonderful values that create great people. I credit the church for raising me to be a great mom and a loving teacher who LOVES and TOLERATES people of ALL lifestyles, even homosexuals. Those friends I have that are gay are in more monogomous/committed relationships than many of my single friends. If they want to be "married", let them. If all gay people were promiscuous swingers, this wouldn't be an issue. My daughter has friends with gay parents and she sees them as no different, just like those of other races. People aren't at risk of "choosing" to be gay. Who would choose to be discriminated against and ridiculed? It's not a deviancy, it's just how some people are wired, and doesn't God do the wiring? Someday, homosexuality will be looked upon just like color of skin and all of this hate and discrimination will be behind us.

Mindy | 5:51 a.m. May 21, 2009

I dont understand why you guys have make up stupid websites makinf fun of mormons. Its not right and you have no right to do that. Am the only one in my family who is mormon and yeah they make fun of me for it but i dont care. I dont like how you have the address for the president so you guys can write letters complaning. And instesad of talking about something you dont know i think you should go to church. Maybe it will open up your eyes so you can see what you are doing. When i saw the websites that you guys have come up with. It made me mad. I wanted to end this, this needs to end. you guys need to stop this.

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