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3 FLDS men indicted by grand jury surrender in Texas
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Betty J | 12:38 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
And this hits just keep on coming...
Joey | 1:27 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
What are they going to do, start indicting women and children next?
Gal50 | 1:37 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
These three men are in their 20's, so there isn't the great difference
in age that we saw in the suspects and victims of the other indictments.
Just guessing here, but perhaps Texas thought the grand jury would be less likely to indict men who were closer in age to the victims and so these indictments came down toward the end.
The power structure within the FLDS seems to favor the older male leaders, so the first men indicted would be seen as the main perpetrators. These last men would be viewed by the law as perpetrators as ignorance of the law is not a defense, however, they may have had no way of knowing they were breaking the law and they may have been indoctrinated into doing this.
One could argue that these men have been victimized too as their parents and leaders set them up to commit illegal acts and have turned them into alleged criminals. Obviously, this argument doesn't fly in court. Nevertheless, it important to realize that some criminals are criminals merely due to the way they were raised.
Just guessing here, but perhaps Texas thought the grand jury would be less likely to indict men who were closer in age to the victims and so these indictments came down toward the end.
The power structure within the FLDS seems to favor the older male leaders, so the first men indicted would be seen as the main perpetrators. These last men would be viewed by the law as perpetrators as ignorance of the law is not a defense, however, they may have had no way of knowing they were breaking the law and they may have been indoctrinated into doing this.
One could argue that these men have been victimized too as their parents and leaders set them up to commit illegal acts and have turned them into alleged criminals. Obviously, this argument doesn't fly in court. Nevertheless, it important to realize that some criminals are criminals merely due to the way they were raised.
Comments continue below
Pam | 2:37 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Glad these perps will be held to task.
To Pam | 2:52 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Amen! Nuff said!!
J-man | 3:17 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Joey, now that you mention it. There are a few women who need to be indicted
for their role in allowing their underage daughters to be married to older men.
Barbara Jessop comes to mind...
Lehi Jeffs | 3:43 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Wow - looks just like Warren Jeffs - are they father and son? There is another
Jeffs indicted - is he also a son of Warren?
common sense | 3:58 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
No One is 37 and in 2007 the girl was 16, if they were marreid in 2006 she would
have been 15, as would the other girl
Joey | 4:08 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Geeze Texans. Leave the 23 year old man and his 18 year old wife alone.
nosugrof | 4:18 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
If this were about justice, they would indict Angie Voss.
Johnny Utah #9 | 5:15 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Re: Joey | 1:27 p.m
"What are they going to do, start indicting women and children next? "
Yes, Hopefully....the women are just as guilty for allowing this to happen to their children. It's called child endangerment and negligence.
"What are they going to do, start indicting women and children next? "
Yes, Hopefully....the women are just as guilty for allowing this to happen to their children. It's called child endangerment and negligence.
common sense | 6:09 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
I agree with Johnny Utah. Did the mothers do anything to stop the underage
marriages? Nope.
zxcvbnm | 6:17 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Joey...noone will leave these guys alone. If Texas doesn't get some vengence the whole half baked mess would not be worth the 30+ million that they have wasted so far.
Joey | 6:49 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Johnny calls a marriage between a 16 year old and a 23 year old "child
endangerement and negligence." Boy we sure have come a long way.
We would prefer these 16 year olds to be sluts than get married. We have a generation of STD-ridden teenage girls, a good portion of whom have had abortions. But we won't allow them to get married to a man who can support them. We look down on cultures that celebrate life.
No wonder our culture and our economy are stagnant and dying.
We would prefer these 16 year olds to be sluts than get married. We have a generation of STD-ridden teenage girls, a good portion of whom have had abortions. But we won't allow them to get married to a man who can support them. We look down on cultures that celebrate life.
No wonder our culture and our economy are stagnant and dying.
Wilma | 10:03 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
You's needs leave the FLDS alones. They's doone nothing tos the rests
of yous. you's needs to get a life. Back out and down leave thems alone.
To Gal50 | 10:48 p.m. Sept. 29, 2008
Yes, one could argue anything. But the fact of the matter is that if the
charges are true, these men broke the law. Period. Methinks they picked the
wrong state. They need to get back to Utah where we let this type of stuff go
on.
laughing at Texas | 4:06 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Wow...so now they have what - 10 men that have or allegedly MARRIED girls?
SO much better than just impregnating them and letting the State support all their unclaimed and unwanted babies.
If it weren't so sad, I'd laugh myself sick.
All you self-righteous hypocrites...how many unwed mothers do you know?
Call CPS on THEM. Oh...they're your daughters...so that's okay then. Cause it's you and your family.
Hypcrites.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. At least the FLDS WANT their babies. They're not the ones flocking to the abortion clinics behind their parents backs.
Nice bunch of kids you've raised there.
Judgemental, self-righteous, critical "Christians".
Nice.
SO much better than just impregnating them and letting the State support all their unclaimed and unwanted babies.
If it weren't so sad, I'd laugh myself sick.
All you self-righteous hypocrites...how many unwed mothers do you know?
Call CPS on THEM. Oh...they're your daughters...so that's okay then. Cause it's you and your family.
Hypcrites.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. At least the FLDS WANT their babies. They're not the ones flocking to the abortion clinics behind their parents backs.
Nice bunch of kids you've raised there.
Judgemental, self-righteous, critical "Christians".
Nice.
Food for Thought | 6:18 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
First there has got to be REAL victims, not people set up by the state to
supposedly be victims to sustain their agenda. Where is justice?! It looks like
Texas is setting up for a good face plant after they stumble over their mound
they made.
Re: Joey and laughing at texas | 7:49 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Let's follow your logic. You are saying that all little girls should be
forced or indoctrinated into underage marriages and then raped in order to save
them from their potential of having loose morals and having children out of
wedlock. I can't wait until your IQs reach double digits so we can have an
intelligent discussion about this.
Cats | 8:05 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
I love the way these FLDS always set up these "straw man" arguments.
They always claim that it's better for these girls to be
"married" than to turn into sluts or have STDs, for example. Like
there's no other way? What society wants is for young girls to get to be
young girls. For them to be able to grow up first. For them to have choices.
For them to be able to get an education, have some opportunities in life and not
be forced into sick and immoral "marriages" while they are still
children.
And these silly and irrational attacks on Angie Voss are getting nowhere. No one is convinced when the perpetrators of crimes attack those who are trying to stop them. I applaud Angie Voss for trying to help these victims.
These men are being indicted because they have committed crimes against children. Unfortunately, they are victims, too. They have been brainwashed and controlled since they were children. Like Elissa Wall's first "husband," they have been forced into committing these crimes by, Warren Jeffs, a false prophet who has since PUBLICLY admitted he is a fraud.
Both Men AND women need to be brought to justice.
And these silly and irrational attacks on Angie Voss are getting nowhere. No one is convinced when the perpetrators of crimes attack those who are trying to stop them. I applaud Angie Voss for trying to help these victims.
These men are being indicted because they have committed crimes against children. Unfortunately, they are victims, too. They have been brainwashed and controlled since they were children. Like Elissa Wall's first "husband," they have been forced into committing these crimes by, Warren Jeffs, a false prophet who has since PUBLICLY admitted he is a fraud.
Both Men AND women need to be brought to justice.
Oklahoma Mormon | 8:09 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
I agree with laughing at Texas. The whole state government is a joke. They are
costing the Texas taxpayers a bundle of money because CPS is grasping at straws
and trying to find something wrong so that they can save face after over 400
"children" were "rescued" and returned. What ever happened
to the bogus phone call person? Paid off by the State of Texas no doubt. Big
Brother is watching out for us. The most terrifying statement is "I am
from your government and I am here to help you."
Re: Oklahoma Mormon | 8:40 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Please be clear. You agree with 'laughing at Texas' that little girls
ought to be forced into underage marriages and raped so that they will be saved
from STD's and loose morals? Please share your defense of these
atrocities.
tigerlily | 8:48 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
texas really needs to stop what they are doing and leave these people alone. the
evidence was obtained illegally and should be thrown out of court.
Cats | 9:03 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
To Re: Oklahoma Mormon: RIGHT ON!!!!
Cats | 9:12 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Tiger Lily is an FLDS blogger who is always trying to defend the indefensible.
What evidence is admissable in court remains to be seen. However, all
fair-minded people everywhere applaud the State of Texas for trying to defend
these little ones.
m | 10:59 a.m. Sept. 30, 2008
The very saddest thing to me is that most of the children think it is what they
want. There is no choice and once they have children they are trapped.
hoosier | 1:01 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
OK Mormon: It may be costing Texas some money, but it is costing the flds a lot
of money to. There are 25 million Texans and 8000 flds. Who is going to run out
of money first? The court already has about a million dollars of flds bail
money. Texas will end up owning the YFZ. When that happens maybe they can sell
it to the Southern Baptists.
tigerlily | 1:02 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Cats: i am not an flds blogger. i see that the flds people have been treated
unfairly and it needs to stop. the state of texas is violationg their rights.
Tadpole | 2:43 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Oh, tiger lily, get of your lily pad and smell the fungus and mildew for what it
is... Good grief! I really feel sorry for you, because you are so blind to
facts. Good luck with whatever makes you float.
Cats | 3:01 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Pardon me, Tiger Lily, if I don't believe that you are not FLDS. You have
posted many blogs supporting the FLDS position. You even stated one time that
the picture of Warren Jeffs kissing a twelve year old was a fake. I don't
believe that anyone would take that position if they were not FLDS.
These people are being given all the legal rights of any American citizen. They have legal representation and their day in court the same as anyone. They are just running up against the brick wall of the law in which they are finally being held to account for crimes they have been committing for generations.
If the FLDS are unhappy with their current legal situation, they have no one to blame but themselves. One can't flaunt the law and victimize others forever. Eventually you have to face the music. It's time for some justice.
These people are being given all the legal rights of any American citizen. They have legal representation and their day in court the same as anyone. They are just running up against the brick wall of the law in which they are finally being held to account for crimes they have been committing for generations.
If the FLDS are unhappy with their current legal situation, they have no one to blame but themselves. One can't flaunt the law and victimize others forever. Eventually you have to face the music. It's time for some justice.
Andrea | 3:01 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Tigerlilly,
The FLDS violated the laws. Girls under the age of 16 were married and forced to have sex. The state went in to the compound with good intentions. They did go over board by taking all the kids with out investigating but their intentions were good. The FLDS has the right to practice their own religion but Freedom of Religion dose not give them the right to violate laws. The laws that were violated were the age of consent law, age of marriage, and the various laws against having more then one wife.
Our world is not perfect, girls to have sex at a young age and many do get pregnant. The state of Texas and other states like Utah do investigate these cases and do sometimes take the children away. The cases dont make it onto the news but it dose happen. The parents can and sometimes are charged with failure to protect their children because they allowed them to have sex.
The FLDS violated the laws. Girls under the age of 16 were married and forced to have sex. The state went in to the compound with good intentions. They did go over board by taking all the kids with out investigating but their intentions were good. The FLDS has the right to practice their own religion but Freedom of Religion dose not give them the right to violate laws. The laws that were violated were the age of consent law, age of marriage, and the various laws against having more then one wife.
Our world is not perfect, girls to have sex at a young age and many do get pregnant. The state of Texas and other states like Utah do investigate these cases and do sometimes take the children away. The cases dont make it onto the news but it dose happen. The parents can and sometimes are charged with failure to protect their children because they allowed them to have sex.
Johnny Utah #9 | 3:09 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
re: laughing at Texas | 4:06 a.m
The difference is, when normal teen pregnancies happen the fathers of these babies are teens themselves and the sex is consensual. In the case of the FLDS, teenagers are raped by men much older than the girls.
A man in Texas CAN legally marry a 16 year old girl with parental consent but they can only have one wife. And since these "spiritual" marriages are not legal these men are now statutory rapists and child molesters. And since you mention it, the state IS also taking care of many of these "wanted" FLDS babies as many of the legally un-wed mothers are collecting welfare. Ever heard of "Bleeding the Beast"?
A so called "marriage" does not make it OK to rape and molest children.
Still laughing?
The difference is, when normal teen pregnancies happen the fathers of these babies are teens themselves and the sex is consensual. In the case of the FLDS, teenagers are raped by men much older than the girls.
A man in Texas CAN legally marry a 16 year old girl with parental consent but they can only have one wife. And since these "spiritual" marriages are not legal these men are now statutory rapists and child molesters. And since you mention it, the state IS also taking care of many of these "wanted" FLDS babies as many of the legally un-wed mothers are collecting welfare. Ever heard of "Bleeding the Beast"?
A so called "marriage" does not make it OK to rape and molest children.
Still laughing?
tigerlily | 3:11 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Tadpole: i am not blind to the facts. the fact are they basically kidnapped the
kids and stole the evidence. they were forced to give the kids back and the
evidence is not evidence because it was obatined illegally. these texas people
also desiceated their temple
zxcvbnm | 3:19 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Isn't it a lot of fun to bash a religion from the safety of each bloggers individual religious perspective.
When the State of Texas is thru meddling in the affairs of the FLDs we just may have a new State Police division in Texas. THe Department of Religious Norms........DRN.
Jumper-roo | 4:12 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
RE: ZXCVBNM
FLDS are not a religion. FLDS are nothing more then a sex cult. They hide behind God. Facts are facts!
FLDS are not a religion. FLDS are nothing more then a sex cult. They hide behind God. Facts are facts!
dlr | 4:31 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Texas changed the law to hurt these people.
The money would be better spent going after the corruption in the government... and wall street.
The money would be better spent going after the corruption in the government... and wall street.
Sin city | 4:29 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
It's obvious that there are some Flds on here. You folks are quite twisted!
Laughing at Texas (and Utah) | 5:01 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
lol...
You've got to be kidding, right? No one can think that every underage, pregnant, and/or sexually active girl has had CONSENSUAL sex....
Oh my...every time a boy says, "IF you love me...." it's not consensual - it's forced/manipulated.
Have none of you heard of DATE RAPE? Anyone want to guess how much of that goes unreported?
If these underage FLDS girls are SO victimized, why did not even ONE of them voice their desire to leave the FLDS?
Because they're safe and happy there.
Just keep telling yourself that you're saviors. But start in your own backyards where the teens are promiscuous and immoral, and lewd.
You've got to be kidding, right? No one can think that every underage, pregnant, and/or sexually active girl has had CONSENSUAL sex....
Oh my...every time a boy says, "IF you love me...." it's not consensual - it's forced/manipulated.
Have none of you heard of DATE RAPE? Anyone want to guess how much of that goes unreported?
If these underage FLDS girls are SO victimized, why did not even ONE of them voice their desire to leave the FLDS?
Because they're safe and happy there.
Just keep telling yourself that you're saviors. But start in your own backyards where the teens are promiscuous and immoral, and lewd.
Re: Laughing at Texas (and Utah) | 5:55 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
What you're not understanding is that it's not a matter of being
married, it's a matter of sex with underage girls. State law says they are
statutory rapists if they are not legally married. That's the bottom line.
Yes, girls get pregnant by date rape, and it's just that...rape. They are a victim, should the date rape victims not be cared for? And date rape is not consensual. How does that make them immoral? And men that commit date rape should wind up in jail, it's not reported for the same reasons these girls haven't spoken up, shame and seclusion.
The victimized girls at the YFZ ranch have not spoken up because they are bred to believe that these men are doing nothing wrong. And they would be shunned by their family and community and end up on the streets.
Your generalization that teens are all promiscuous and immoral is completely off base. And your defense of men raping and molesting children is disgusting. How can you defend people that have openly said they've had sex with underage girls, then have the gall to call teenagers immoral.
Yes, girls get pregnant by date rape, and it's just that...rape. They are a victim, should the date rape victims not be cared for? And date rape is not consensual. How does that make them immoral? And men that commit date rape should wind up in jail, it's not reported for the same reasons these girls haven't spoken up, shame and seclusion.
The victimized girls at the YFZ ranch have not spoken up because they are bred to believe that these men are doing nothing wrong. And they would be shunned by their family and community and end up on the streets.
Your generalization that teens are all promiscuous and immoral is completely off base. And your defense of men raping and molesting children is disgusting. How can you defend people that have openly said they've had sex with underage girls, then have the gall to call teenagers immoral.
tigerlily | 6:00 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Cats: since you don't know me you wouldn't know what i am but i do
know what i am and it isn't flds. i have posted my comments on this page,
that does not make me an flds blogger. yes the picture of jeffs and the girl is
a fake. look at it for yourself and you will see that there is something about
that picture that isn't right. believe me i am not flds in anyway shape or
form. having their children kidnapped is given them rights. they have the legal
right to worship as they please and to raise their kids as they please just like
you and i do. and technically they have only one wife. bigamy and polygamy are
two different things. no children have been taken away from the flds in utah.
teen girls have sex in the outside world too. having sex is not against the law
Johnny Utah #9 | 6:09 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
So are you telling me that the men at YFZ ranch and other FLDS communities have
never said "IF you love me...."? or "It's part of God's
plan" ?? I'd bet that they have.
So, by your own rationale, you are admitting that the girls in relationships with men that say things like "IF you love me...."? or "It's part of God's plan" are "forced/manipulated" to have sex? If you end up on trial you'd better plead the 5th because your going to incriminate yourself and everybody else. And it still doesn't matter if it's consensual or not. They're breaking the law by having sex with underage girls that they are not legally married to.
This issue isn't about promiscuous teens in Utah, it's about child molesters in Texas, raping children in the name of God, and hiding behind Freedom of Religion.
So, by your own rationale, you are admitting that the girls in relationships with men that say things like "IF you love me...."? or "It's part of God's plan" are "forced/manipulated" to have sex? If you end up on trial you'd better plead the 5th because your going to incriminate yourself and everybody else. And it still doesn't matter if it's consensual or not. They're breaking the law by having sex with underage girls that they are not legally married to.
This issue isn't about promiscuous teens in Utah, it's about child molesters in Texas, raping children in the name of God, and hiding behind Freedom of Religion.
Laughing | 6:16 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
I haven't defended anyone raping anyone.
You DON'T think today's teens are immoral and promiscuous?
What rock do you live under?
You DON'T think today's teens are immoral and promiscuous?
What rock do you live under?
Johnny Utah #9 | 7:09 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Re: tigerlily | 6:00 p.m
Re: Laughing | 6:16 p.m
Obviously the point of the discussion just isn't sinking in with these two.
Teens having sex with other teens is not against the law. Immoral? Maybe by your stringent standards, yes.
Men over the age of 18 having sex with children under the age of eighteen IS against the law. Immoral? Absolutely.
Teens having "immoral" sex with other teens is not a legitimate defense for men over the age of 18, having sex with children under the age of 18. Consensual or not, by law, they are Statutory Rapists. It doesn't matter that other teens are having sex all over the world. Its apples and oranges.
Wouldn't you agree that men having sex with under age girls should be arrested?
What don't you get about that?
Re: Laughing | 6:16 p.m
Obviously the point of the discussion just isn't sinking in with these two.
Teens having sex with other teens is not against the law. Immoral? Maybe by your stringent standards, yes.
Men over the age of 18 having sex with children under the age of eighteen IS against the law. Immoral? Absolutely.
Teens having "immoral" sex with other teens is not a legitimate defense for men over the age of 18, having sex with children under the age of 18. Consensual or not, by law, they are Statutory Rapists. It doesn't matter that other teens are having sex all over the world. Its apples and oranges.
Wouldn't you agree that men having sex with under age girls should be arrested?
What don't you get about that?
Wilma J. | 8:34 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Them Texan mens needs to leaves thems FLDS peoples alones. Them FLDS peoples
does nothings to hurts anybodies. Ims mad at this hole situation. Them Texans
mens are badd badd badd peoples"
Joey | 8:49 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Who I would like to have arrested is the people in charge of the YFZ raid. They
violated those people's rights by turning all their homes upside down, and
taking their children. They didn't have search warrants for any of the 80
homes there, they just came, saw, and conquered. That's assault in my book,
under color of law. So what if they find some pictures and diaries in the
process. It wasn't worth the human rights abuse, even if a victim from the
ranch were to finally come forward today or tomorrow or next year, it still
wouldn't be worth the cost to all of our freedom, which the YFZ raid set as
a precedent.
zxcvbnm | 9:05 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
When a State goes out of its' way to change laws to persecute a religious body there is a problem.
The author of the law stated that it was his intention to get flds thru the new laws.
Consent in Texas was 16 before 9-01-05 and good enough for every Texan.
This whole mess revolves around persecution of a religion.
When the Supreme Court ruled that sex between adults is a private matter the bigamy and polygamy laws went out the window.
When Texas changed the laws to get flds those laws went out the window.
Texas blew it again......the morality police crossed the lines of consent and moved the line to target religious practice.
I hope Scalia has fun with this one.
jeepers! | 10:13 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
WOWSERS! This is one extremely intellectual blog. You people take the cake and
eat it too! I say, arrest all FLDS men. Perhaps FLDS can learn something in
prison.
What a bunch of silly nonsense! This is very sad blog indeed. It's very hard to believe that there are so many people out there who are so darn ignorant.
What a bunch of silly nonsense! This is very sad blog indeed. It's very hard to believe that there are so many people out there who are so darn ignorant.
To XCVBNM | 10:35 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
"When a State goes out of its' way to change laws to persecute a
religious body there is a problem.
__________________________________________________
The state is not persecuting the religion. It is persecuting the criminal act of child rape, welfare fraud, and child slave labor as well as bigamy. Can you please at least TRY to say something with some real essense and reason to it and not just your emotional mindless blogging?
Start with addressing the behavior of Warren Jeffs? Why did he encourage young girls to give up their youth and freedom to get impregnated by old men they never met? How can that be good for them? Why is Jeffs now saying he is not the prophet and never was? Why do the FLDS blindly follow him even though he has admitted he is a just a perv with some nerve? Why did he molest his young male family memebers?
__________________________________________________
The state is not persecuting the religion. It is persecuting the criminal act of child rape, welfare fraud, and child slave labor as well as bigamy. Can you please at least TRY to say something with some real essense and reason to it and not just your emotional mindless blogging?
Start with addressing the behavior of Warren Jeffs? Why did he encourage young girls to give up their youth and freedom to get impregnated by old men they never met? How can that be good for them? Why is Jeffs now saying he is not the prophet and never was? Why do the FLDS blindly follow him even though he has admitted he is a just a perv with some nerve? Why did he molest his young male family memebers?
to Johnny Utah #9 | 10:38 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
Amen!!! Nuff said! Cheers!!
To Nosugrof | 10:52 p.m. Sept. 30, 2008
If this was about brave women leaders, they would elect Angie Voss.
If it was about mindless bloggers repeating mindless phrases over and over they would elect Nosugraf.
P.S. Try this one, it's just as relevant but funnier:
"I am Elmer J. Fudd, Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht."
If it was about mindless bloggers repeating mindless phrases over and over they would elect Nosugraf.
P.S. Try this one, it's just as relevant but funnier:
"I am Elmer J. Fudd, Millionaire.
I own a mansion and a yacht."
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just like Galileo. Oh, except he was using science to fight against the...
The article fortunately did not mention the significant drop in Monavie's...
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