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Utah doctors say industry must share blame
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dilgentdave | 12:33 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Several factors contribute to the hyper-inflation of the medical marketplace.
First of all, an aging population (not enough babies being born), means the
population of the US (and much of the world) is excaberated by the fact that
there is an anti-baby, anti-birth, pro-abortion and pro-contraceptive coalition.
We are committing civilational suicide. Diseases and conditions will always be
more prevalent the older one gets. So a society with an aging population (due to
the 'birth dearth') will have overall escalating costs. (see next
post)
Lew Jeppson | 12:47 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Dr. Jarvis is dead on when he says health care is not a commodity. In economics
we have gotten some other things wrong as well. Karl Polanyi in "The Great
Transformation" documents the evils of thinking that labor and land are
commodities. They aren't. The only proper commodities are products
produced for sale. Human beings (labor) and services which are matters of life
and death for humans beings (health care) are not commodities and require
special protection. Way to go, doc!
Dennis Goldsberry | 2:50 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Yet people of the US still think they have the best system in the world. I
live in Canada after 54 years in the US, and the Canadian system delivers
health care to everybody, and our statistics of longevity are better than the US
with far less spent on healthcare per person. My wife gave birth to two children
in the US system, and when our daughter gave birth in Canada she received the
same kind of treatment. Look north US and learn.
Comments continue below
Joe | 3:51 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
What makes bearing the outrages prices even more difficult to swallow is that
the procedures they pay for often don't work. After numerous surgeries,
I'm 50k in the hole and permanently disabled.
Only positive result of my experiences with these docs? Now I'm in law school.
Only positive result of my experiences with these docs? Now I'm in law school.
Patients Unite | 4:15 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I'm glad to hear that doctors understand our perverse system. Now we need
to get patients to unite and demand change. After all is said and done -- all
health care is paid for by the people -- not government, not insurance carriers,
and not business. It is time for "the people" to demand a more
sensible system.
Oh. | 4:32 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
So, what other places have better health care than the U.S.A?
Timj | 6:01 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
From dilgentdave's first post, I take it that medical costs in Europe
should be much higher as ours, since they have a much older population.
Obviously, that's not true. They pay considerably less, and for better care.
Obviously, that's not true. They pay considerably less, and for better care.
Midwest Member | 6:08 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Isn't it ironic that the healthcare industry is killing us all?!
Ray | 6:17 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
As a retired pediatrician of 7 years, I also look at and mourn the condition of
current medicine--both quality and cost. I consider myself lucky to have
practiced my decades in a time when the doctor himself gave the medical care,
bonded to the patient and his/her needs, and ran a business that was efficiently
beneficial to the patient, the community, and to himself. Maybe a bit
naive--but it was a great era.
scotwright | 6:28 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Medical costs are rising, enabled and abetted by medical and legal
professionals. Insurance companies also bear responsibility because they have
overpromised and underdelivered services. When I go to a doctor's office
with a loved one, I sit among people who are not sick but are getting
unnecessary procedures and follow-up appointments. My own medical care is
covered by the VA since I am a disabled Vietnam Veteran. I also use lots of
natural food supplements which have enabled me to stop using 8 different kinds
of prescription drugs. I feel wonderful, have lost over 50 lbs. and only go to
the doctor for my semi-annual mental and physical checkups. Doctors are some of
the world's best salesmen and the American Public has been conned into the
idea that they need to consult a physician about every little unimportant
problem. If people would seek out more holistic solutions and learn to help
themselves with insignificant problems there would be no overcrowded hospitals.
Doctors could then help sick people instead of pandering to hypochondriacs.
Wes | 6:33 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I believe that the single most significant problem in US health care is the
underlying fact that "health care" is focussed on remedies--not
prevention.
Valid scientific research results already demonstrate that the biggest killers (heart disease, cancer)are driven by nutritional factors. The major one being whether people choose to eat animal flesh or not. The alternative, plant based diets, has been PROVEN, in study after study, to dramatically reduce rates of both diseases.
Yes, the medical profession is at fault, but so are those who continue to defy/deny daily food choices.
Valid scientific research results already demonstrate that the biggest killers (heart disease, cancer)are driven by nutritional factors. The major one being whether people choose to eat animal flesh or not. The alternative, plant based diets, has been PROVEN, in study after study, to dramatically reduce rates of both diseases.
Yes, the medical profession is at fault, but so are those who continue to defy/deny daily food choices.
Astro | 6:45 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Of course the system is ineffective. What else could you expect from a system
that is constructed to make profit rather than to deal with health problems. It
is not a question whether the failure of the system will lead to the question of
civilized (aka socialized) medicine. The problem is that the nation has
prioritized profit for health and given the democratic control of the health
system to the health industry. The problem is not wether this will lead to a
demand for civilized health, the problem is that the country does not have
civilized healh.
RockOn | 7:31 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I hope this signals a move to an intelligent discussion over health care.
Certainly one thing to question is the use of insurance... any insurance (especially a government insurance program like Obama is promoting). Insurance companies put a huge sponge between the provider and the consumer. Automatically prices rise as the consumer is not in charge of the process. A good number of treatments would not be sought if the buyer had to make an intelligent decision rather than saying "the insurance will pay for it." They would also shop doctors and hospitals and make better selections. Doctors would be forced to compete for customers and tighten up on scheduling (fewer delays and wasted time waiting) and office procedures. The supplier would be more accountable to the buyer by eliminating the middleman or intermediator.
Certainly one thing to question is the use of insurance... any insurance (especially a government insurance program like Obama is promoting). Insurance companies put a huge sponge between the provider and the consumer. Automatically prices rise as the consumer is not in charge of the process. A good number of treatments would not be sought if the buyer had to make an intelligent decision rather than saying "the insurance will pay for it." They would also shop doctors and hospitals and make better selections. Doctors would be forced to compete for customers and tighten up on scheduling (fewer delays and wasted time waiting) and office procedures. The supplier would be more accountable to the buyer by eliminating the middleman or intermediator.
re: dilgentdave | 7:52 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
THis "birth-death" is especially true in Russia. #1 form of
contraception is abortion. They are experiencing 16 deaths to every 11 births.
Their population has declined from 150 million to 130 million (the US is at 304
million).
Anonymous | 7:56 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Can anyone name 18 other countries that provide "higher quality and better
outcomes" that they would rather be treated in? I can't name one.
Health care is expensive anywhere you go either in taxes or straight from the
pocket. Others systems have many problems that are not addressed in this column
re: Dennis Goldsberry | 7:57 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Canada is a great place however, you told the US to "Look north and
learn" and only gave the example of child birth, the most natural medical
condition in the world. You failed to mention the huge, inflated taxes that
Canada pays and you didn't give any examples of real health care for other
medical conditions. You also didn't explain why Canadians come to the U for
better treatment. Please get your facts straight before you light off on your
hate for the US.
Europe is Not Better | 7:59 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I've been to Europe. I've worked in Europe for years. Been in many
homes in Europe. I've witnessed everyone being treated for something. It
was crazy, pharmacies on almost every corner. Lines out the door every day for
folks getting medication...cause it was free. People had not 1 or 2 bottles,
but 6,7, and sometimes 8 bottles of pills. I don't think its accurate to
say its better and cheaper in Europe. I would say its more quantity than
anything.
Must Change Everything | 8:09 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I think for there to be meaningful change in the cost and quality of healthcare
drastic changes will have to be made-many which will seem
'cold-hearted' but which will be necessary to acheive meaningful
results:
1. There must be a complete focus on prevention of all disease. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and our current system rewards companies for finding the pound of cure more than the ounce of prevention.
2. We must be willing to accept that certain treatments are not worth it-particularly when treatments provide minimal extension of life at enormous cost. We seem to have a permanent denial of death in our country-sometimes we have to come to grips with the reality of a terminal condition and not feel an entitlement to have everything thrown at it. Just as we accept higher speed limits than 5 MPH can turn into a fatality but improve the quality of life we must accept that by focusing on preventive medicine and reducing cost we may find ourselves with an untreatable disease that we will have to accept.
1. There must be a complete focus on prevention of all disease. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and our current system rewards companies for finding the pound of cure more than the ounce of prevention.
2. We must be willing to accept that certain treatments are not worth it-particularly when treatments provide minimal extension of life at enormous cost. We seem to have a permanent denial of death in our country-sometimes we have to come to grips with the reality of a terminal condition and not feel an entitlement to have everything thrown at it. Just as we accept higher speed limits than 5 MPH can turn into a fatality but improve the quality of life we must accept that by focusing on preventive medicine and reducing cost we may find ourselves with an untreatable disease that we will have to accept.
Debbie | 8:17 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
We say we want innovation, new technology, cures for diseases and yet the
traditions of our fathers prevent us from doing the surgery that is needful to
make the healthcare system what it needs to be. Hanging on to old ideas when
the world has changed is idiotic. We must redesign the way we deliver health
care and how it is financed. This will affect everyone but universal coverage,
removed from the employer-provided system is the only way. You can't hold
on to the old while pining for the new. You can't hold on to the old if
you care about your fellow citizens and realize you personally are only one
health or employment crisis away from financial disaster.
I want to vote Republican, but they appear to be "good old boys" when it comes to making the radical changes that we need. I don't want to elect Obama because I don't think he's the right leader for our country and it has nothing to do with his race - but he is the only candidate who recognizes this is the direction we need to go. Republicans could come up with a better system than simply government controlled. Do it!
I want to vote Republican, but they appear to be "good old boys" when it comes to making the radical changes that we need. I don't want to elect Obama because I don't think he's the right leader for our country and it has nothing to do with his race - but he is the only candidate who recognizes this is the direction we need to go. Republicans could come up with a better system than simply government controlled. Do it!
So lets | 8:25 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
pay much higher taxes and let some pointy headed bureaucrat make our medical
decisions and hope that our condition puts us on the "you get to do it
now" list at the end of the fiscal year. I've read newspaper accounts
of discussions in Canada about how to make the waiting lists fairer (not how to
shorten the length of time like and evil capitalist would explore) and I've
had family members in Europe wait for surgery because the condition was non-life
threatening and there was no more money. The Europe experience was especially
heartbreaking because of the disfigurement that resulted because the surgery was
not done immediately. We need to fix our system, but the Canadian and European
models are not the place to look for solutions.
We demand expensive treatments.. | 8:28 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
...and we demand intensive and expensive care at both the beginning and the end
of life.
When an Alzheimers patient doesn't recognize her family, is practically bedridden, but is STILL treated for heart disease, diabetes and cataracts -- what's wrong with that picture?
We demand that severely premature babies be "saved" at a cost of millions of dollars, despite the fact that most end up disabled. Isn't it God's will that the baby was born early, and isn't there a medical reason for it? Why do we intercede?
I an NOT putting a price on human life; but at some point, we must look at the efficacity of extending a life that does not exist.
We have seen the problem, and the problem is us.
When an Alzheimers patient doesn't recognize her family, is practically bedridden, but is STILL treated for heart disease, diabetes and cataracts -- what's wrong with that picture?
We demand that severely premature babies be "saved" at a cost of millions of dollars, despite the fact that most end up disabled. Isn't it God's will that the baby was born early, and isn't there a medical reason for it? Why do we intercede?
I an NOT putting a price on human life; but at some point, we must look at the efficacity of extending a life that does not exist.
We have seen the problem, and the problem is us.
Dixie doc | 8:29 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Are people here really going to argue that the United States system is better
because taxes are lower? We pay more for our health care (in total taxes,
premiums, copays, deductibles, etc.) than other countries who have better
objective medical outcomes (like infant mortality). We'll give up better
and cheaper health care because the money paid is called taxes. Dumb.
And just because someone thinks that the US can do better, doesn't mean that he or she hates America. Grow up.
And just because someone thinks that the US can do better, doesn't mean that he or she hates America. Grow up.
evensteven | 9:06 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
A major driver of escalating health care costs insurance. De-coupling insurance
from employment would do much to put the patient back in charge of their care
and coverage. Beginning to treat insurance like insurance would also help.
Minimal co-pays and low deductibles insulate consumers from the true costs of
their choices. Ending closed-system provider networks would halt the verticle
monopolies within medicine and remove financial incentives to over-treat
patients.
No group is blameless for this problem. It is great to see the docsstepping up and aknlowledging their role. Recognition is the first step to resolution.
No group is blameless for this problem. It is great to see the docsstepping up and aknlowledging their role. Recognition is the first step to resolution.
Stats are misleading | 9:12 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
The stats that they use to say health care outcomes are better are misleading
because a lot of the measures they use to indicate outcome are difficult for the
healthcare system to alter. Most of the problems in decreased outcomes are due
to obesity, smoking, and a sedentary lifestyle present in the U.S. not worse
medical care. The only difference between what is offered in the US and Europe,
Canada, Australia, N.Z. etc is that they ration their care and we don't.
Try getting emergency angioplasty in N.Z. if you have a heart attack over the
age of 65. Not allowed. If we started to ration our healthcare we would
immediately see the same cost cuts. Lets see how that goes over with AARP.
Johnny Canuck | 9:15 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Canadians go to the US for 'better treatment' because they're
wealthy and can afford medical tourism. Usually it isn't better, but faster
treatment. Medical tourism is a business, to the US, Mexico or India. The
difference is that they go abroad for treatment they can get at home, with some
patience. But rather, they go and get treatment that many locals cannot afford,
even in the US.
Provider | 9:15 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
We're missing one of the biggest drivers of healthcare costs in America.
That would be the legal profession and lack of tort reform. I and my colleagues
have to continually order tests that common sense would dictate are probably not
necessary. Why is that? Because if we miss a needle in a haystack, or anything
at all, there is a lawyer on every corner convincing the patient and their
family that they're owed something.
Most of our populace operates on a warped sense of entitlement,...they think that everyone owes them something. The runaway litigation in this country has created a "jackpot" mentality among many patients and they're families.
On the one hand people want to disparage doctors; on the other hand we're expected to be perfect. The legal profession is responsible for convincing people that only money can redress any real or perceived lack of perfection.
A visiting european medical student once shared with me that they, in her country, generally marvel and shake their heads and laugh at what has become commonplace litigation against healthcare providers here in the U.S.
It's viewed as ridiculous!
It's also interesting to note that both of her parents are lawyers!
Most of our populace operates on a warped sense of entitlement,...they think that everyone owes them something. The runaway litigation in this country has created a "jackpot" mentality among many patients and they're families.
On the one hand people want to disparage doctors; on the other hand we're expected to be perfect. The legal profession is responsible for convincing people that only money can redress any real or perceived lack of perfection.
A visiting european medical student once shared with me that they, in her country, generally marvel and shake their heads and laugh at what has become commonplace litigation against healthcare providers here in the U.S.
It's viewed as ridiculous!
It's also interesting to note that both of her parents are lawyers!
Provider | 9:27 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
The 7:57 a.m. comment is right on! Before we get too excited about Canadian
healthcare, or any other country with universal healthcare, we must take a close
look at their heavy taxation burden to pay for it.
We're also mislead if we think that there aren't a lot of provisions that are withheld or rationed.
The grass isn't always greener on the other side!
Those who can afford it often flock to the U.S. to purchase their healthcare.
We're also mislead if we think that there aren't a lot of provisions that are withheld or rationed.
The grass isn't always greener on the other side!
Those who can afford it often flock to the U.S. to purchase their healthcare.
Paul | 9:32 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
"The evil of the current U.S. health-care system could be summed up in the
numerous studies that show the United States system is by far the most
expensive, while it is near the bottom in quality and beneficial outcome
measurements compared with 19 other first-world countries."
Many of the criteria have nothing to do with medical outcomes and everything to do with the socialist aspects of the particular system. It would do us all good for the Deseret News to publish information on these studies instead of just stating results.
One of the criteria is invariably infant mortality, which has little to do with the 'system' and almost everything to do with 'culture' and 'lifestyle'. In fact, if you have a premature infant, the US is THE place to be for the best care. Life expectancy is another measure very strongly influenced by 'lifestyle' (read obesity etc.)
Poorest quality? - don't be silly. Such a statement makes me question everything else in the article.
Many of the criteria have nothing to do with medical outcomes and everything to do with the socialist aspects of the particular system. It would do us all good for the Deseret News to publish information on these studies instead of just stating results.
One of the criteria is invariably infant mortality, which has little to do with the 'system' and almost everything to do with 'culture' and 'lifestyle'. In fact, if you have a premature infant, the US is THE place to be for the best care. Life expectancy is another measure very strongly influenced by 'lifestyle' (read obesity etc.)
Poorest quality? - don't be silly. Such a statement makes me question everything else in the article.
blame game | 9:36 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
physicians are great at deflecting the blame toward the healthcare system and
toward the "evil" pharmaceutical companies-when in fact most (if not
all) healthcare systems are trying to enact cost cutting methods, and
pharmaceutical companies are developing novel agents which cost a lot to
develop. Physicians love to attend free conferences sponsored by pharma and
health systems, and love the other free perks, and oh, yea...love to throw
pharma and health systems under the bus at the first sign of stress. MD's:
Start providing your empolyees with better insurance(there is a reason most of
the hired help at doctors offices' are part time), and take a pay cut to
help keep healthcare costs in check.
Mahershalalhashbaz | 9:42 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Another area that needs to be addressed is the number of students in medical
school. Increase the number of Drs and you will decrease their pay. It's
that simple. They will have to compete more for your dollar.
Clare | 9:40 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Unfortunately I have a disease that is very expensive to treat, Multiple
Sclerosis. I actually take injections which I absolutely hate to try and keep
the disease at bay. These drugs have proven to be effective. I know that in
Scotland it is very hard to receive these drugs. I know this because R.K.
Rowling, the author of the Harry Potter books, it trying to get these
medications available for the general public. Another complaint I have is the
expense of the drug. It is constantly going up. It went from my co-pay of $180
to $202 in just one month. Ridiculous. Why is it costing so much more? I can
only assume that the drug companies are making an increasing profit off of this
medication. Why is this allowed?
If you want the market to.... | 9:58 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
...correct itself, it can, but the solution is not going to be a popular one. As
has been mentioned by a previous poster, the insurance sponge (public or
private) is the one factor that drives the costs through the roof. Think about
what you pay or your employer pays a month for insurance, imagine how many
people are paying into the various plans and systems, and then imagine how that
money is probably being handled. You only have to worry about the amount you
pay a month. The doctor or hospital only has to submit the bill. Neither end
has much control over what goes on behind the sacred insurance curtain, and both
are kind of at the mercy of all that fine print. I think that is downright
scary.
My proposed solution is to abolish third-party middlemen in medical transactions. The pricing will correct itself in due time, and care providers will be forced to establish good, efficient practices or face bankruptcy. It would be a painful blow to all employed by the insurance industry, but that is the price of progress. We'd all be better off in the long run.
My proposed solution is to abolish third-party middlemen in medical transactions. The pricing will correct itself in due time, and care providers will be forced to establish good, efficient practices or face bankruptcy. It would be a painful blow to all employed by the insurance industry, but that is the price of progress. We'd all be better off in the long run.
Volume | 10:01 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I do not think we should trade quantity for quality, I have a friend, Immigrated
from "Canada" and became a Doctor, a quite talented Pediatric
Radiologist, he does not want to work in Canada, why would he, his hours would
triple, and his pay would be cut in half. The people that tout there is no
medical care in America, is lieing, don't let the left fool you, if one
goes to an ER, you cannot and will not be refused, in almost every case. That is
the truth, if you can pay or not, you will be treated. There are so many
programs for the poor and needy to get health care. I also have a niece and
nephew who can afford a new home, a new car and trips all over the world, but
uses chip for their kids health care, we all choose where we will spend our
money. You can choose Beer or insurance, that is your choice, but don't ask
me to pay for your health care, even though I will have to anyway!
Ing | 10:07 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I'm also betting nobody on this board can name 18 countries that provide
better health care than the US...but that doesn't prove ours is the best.
Just that we're ignorant. (I include myself; I don't know, and I
probably should.)
I'm not sure about RockOn's assessment. The big problem is not necessarily a public "insurance will pay for it" attitude. I'm grateful to have insurance, but in no way would most of us confuse insurance with free health care--for one thing, there are copays and deductibles, and for another, we've already paid for it ourselves through premiums, taxes, and the higher prices that businesses have to charge for EVERYTHING they do in order to absorb the cost of providing health care plans for their employees.
One part of RockOn's assessment I do agree with is that insurance companies are a giant sponge--they squash competition in all the wrong ways, limit people's choices in doctors and hospitals, and reap IMMENSE profits from every stage of health care. The free-market approach only ensures that private companies can profit from something that is NOT optional for anyone.
How to fix it? I don't really know. But something big needs to change.
I'm not sure about RockOn's assessment. The big problem is not necessarily a public "insurance will pay for it" attitude. I'm grateful to have insurance, but in no way would most of us confuse insurance with free health care--for one thing, there are copays and deductibles, and for another, we've already paid for it ourselves through premiums, taxes, and the higher prices that businesses have to charge for EVERYTHING they do in order to absorb the cost of providing health care plans for their employees.
One part of RockOn's assessment I do agree with is that insurance companies are a giant sponge--they squash competition in all the wrong ways, limit people's choices in doctors and hospitals, and reap IMMENSE profits from every stage of health care. The free-market approach only ensures that private companies can profit from something that is NOT optional for anyone.
How to fix it? I don't really know. But something big needs to change.
Clint A. | 10:19 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I have also lived in Germany for several years.
Europe is much better in their health care.
I don't remember any longer lines than here in the States.
Best thing was, everyone got treatment.
Lets see, how many people in the USA cant get medical help? We all pay one way or the other. Look at hospitals treating the non-insured. We all pay, sooner or later, one way or the other.
We need to overhaul the medical field in America or nothing will change except for the worse and you all know it.
Europe is much better in their health care.
I don't remember any longer lines than here in the States.
Best thing was, everyone got treatment.
Lets see, how many people in the USA cant get medical help? We all pay one way or the other. Look at hospitals treating the non-insured. We all pay, sooner or later, one way or the other.
We need to overhaul the medical field in America or nothing will change except for the worse and you all know it.
DBG | 10:23 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Anybody read the RAND study? You can find it on the Cato Inst. website. This
study pointed out that the third-party system (aka, health ins/plans) is a major
culprit in our crisis. Overhead is a big factor. Anyone read the Physicians for
a Single-payer system website? It has some insightful information there.
Bottomline, healthcare is not a commodity and the playing field for "free market forces" are not even leveled out here. Instead of "fixing it" the best way to deal with this is scratch the existing system and put in a new one. You don't patch up a broken window do you?
Bottomline, healthcare is not a commodity and the playing field for "free market forces" are not even leveled out here. Instead of "fixing it" the best way to deal with this is scratch the existing system and put in a new one. You don't patch up a broken window do you?
This discussion is one sided... | 10:30 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
This issue is so much more complex than this simple symposium and accmpanying
article make it out to be. While it is true the US system has many problems
and unnecessary procedures can drive up costs, the reasons behind this
aren't even mentioned here. One of the major reasons is a legal system
which forces docs to practice defensive medicne for CYA purposes (ordering tests
to cover themselves which often times may be unnecessary drive up costs).
The argument that the US has inferior healthcare to the rest of the world while spending more $$ is also bunk. They gauge this off of average life span which is marginally lower in the US then in many western European countries and Canada. This has far more to do with US culture and diet (super sized portions, lack of exercise, and more stressful work place and lifestyle) which has led to a country of obese people.
Europeans tend to be more active and rest and relax more (for better or for worse) because of their long vacations and shorter work weeks. Any real discussion around this issue needs to go far beyond the scope of the symposisuma nd article.
The argument that the US has inferior healthcare to the rest of the world while spending more $$ is also bunk. They gauge this off of average life span which is marginally lower in the US then in many western European countries and Canada. This has far more to do with US culture and diet (super sized portions, lack of exercise, and more stressful work place and lifestyle) which has led to a country of obese people.
Europeans tend to be more active and rest and relax more (for better or for worse) because of their long vacations and shorter work weeks. Any real discussion around this issue needs to go far beyond the scope of the symposisuma nd article.
B Wenke | 10:43 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Most have missed one major cause for exceptionally high medical costs: I just
received a bill for three days in the hospital (over $81,000). WHY? In
California almost 50% of patients fail to pay their bills entirely, so the
hospitals charge us (who either have insurnace or funds to pay). If you
don't believe me, just do some basic research.
Rick J | 10:50 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I appreciate all the comments that have been posted and believe the discussion
needs to start with some basic questions and points. First, Is healthcare a
right or a commodity? Our current system is commodity based albeit HIGHLY
regulated but large portions of society think it is a right. Decide this first
and the solutions will be different. Second, there will always be inequality in
the quality of care received. If you have more money then me you will always be
able to find someone to treat you with the latest and greatest while I may not.
Third, healthcare is the next great offshoring and outsourcing sector of the US.
Already, hospitals like Mass General (Boston) send images like CT, MRI,
Ultrasound to Doctors (Radiologists) called night hawks in India and the like to
be read because they can pay them $50,000 instead of $250,000. Fourth, going to
a "universal" healthcare system brings problems as well. In socialized
medicine like Canada, France, Sweden, Maine of the US rationing occurs and it
can't be stopped. For more information look up "medical
tourism", "Nighthawks", the WHO ranking of health systems.
RE: Wes | 10:55 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Wes, your take is extremely narrow. Personal responsibility in prevention is
important, but the vegetarian diet is not the solution. Many vegetarians are
fat and unhealthy because they don't exercise.
Dell | 11:12 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Ignore the "rankings" of countries and follow the deciions people
make. The US offers the best healthcare in the world, no question about it.
That's why people with enough money come here for treatment.
The stats are based on a lot of things healthcare providers can't control, like dinner decisions and socioeconomic conditions. If we ate like Japan and had a homogenous affluent society (or just didn't count the inner cities in the stats), or didn't take into account trying to save 2nd trimester babies into our infant mortality stats (like Europe does), we'd "rank" much higher.
Still, no doubt about the expense.
The stats are based on a lot of things healthcare providers can't control, like dinner decisions and socioeconomic conditions. If we ate like Japan and had a homogenous affluent society (or just didn't count the inner cities in the stats), or didn't take into account trying to save 2nd trimester babies into our infant mortality stats (like Europe does), we'd "rank" much higher.
Still, no doubt about the expense.
roger | 11:20 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I think that a huge part of the problem is the courts and medical liability
system in the US. Physicians have to practice defensive medicine or risk being
sued and loosing the ability to work. No one is perfect and good outcomes
cannot be guaranteed.
Idea | 11:39 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
How would Sarah solve this problem? What would Sarah do?
Government and freeloaders | 11:43 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008
I'm a medical transcriptionist. I type medical reports for SSI. I see the
waiting lines people are in for "socialized" programs (VA,
Worker's Comp, etc.) If you don't mind waiting 6 to 12 months for even
important procedures, go ahead and socialize medicine. Look north and learn? I
see in the news people are coming south to get out of the long lines! Sure
it's "free" if you don't mind waiting. I see where a
Canadian has been in a California Hospital for 6 months waiting for a bed in
Canada. Hospitals/doctors commit Medicaid fraud. Insurance companies have
outpriced consumers. People sue at every turn. Juries award outrageous amounts
of money. It is broken and there are many causes. But, socialization WILL NOT
FIX IT!!! Just look at the Social Security and VA systems. The libs talk about
EVIL HMOs, but want to turn the whole system into an HMO where a bureauocrat
decides when and where you can go to the doctor. My family doesn't have
insurance, we don't have medicaid (tho we qualify). Doctors charge too
much. All I'm saying is turning it to the government will only change the
problems, not resolve them, they'll be worse.
Really? | 12:30 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Legal costs drive up costs by two percent. Perception isn't reality.
I have been treated at VA. Most my doctors teach medicine. I never waited more than ten minutes for appointment. My doctor as called me the same day with my test results. Drugs are mailed.
VA has a medical records system, that is the best I have seen anywhere. Any doctor can pull up my records on his monitor. X rays are done as jpeg files.
I waited ten day to see a doctor for my skin cancer. When, I had to go to the ER, I waited thirty minutes. The ulcer they discover was treated in a week. The procedure lasted twenty minutes.
I have a friend in Canada. She loves their health care. My friends in Germany, love their health care. They can be seen by a dentist at 8pm.
The only complaints I hear are from ditto heads living in the State who have never traveled much.
If you're Scottish. Government health care provides a good minimum quality of care for all citizens.
I have been treated at VA. Most my doctors teach medicine. I never waited more than ten minutes for appointment. My doctor as called me the same day with my test results. Drugs are mailed.
VA has a medical records system, that is the best I have seen anywhere. Any doctor can pull up my records on his monitor. X rays are done as jpeg files.
I waited ten day to see a doctor for my skin cancer. When, I had to go to the ER, I waited thirty minutes. The ulcer they discover was treated in a week. The procedure lasted twenty minutes.
I have a friend in Canada. She loves their health care. My friends in Germany, love their health care. They can be seen by a dentist at 8pm.
The only complaints I hear are from ditto heads living in the State who have never traveled much.
If you're Scottish. Government health care provides a good minimum quality of care for all citizens.
BobWilson | 12:32 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Medical technology is a two-edged sword - it can be life-saving for the young
but also life preserving for the old. Some 65% of all medical espenditures, on
the average, occur during the last year of life. That wouldn't be a
problem if everyone paid his/her own bill, but should society pay for a hopeless
few days, week, or months? Who should make the decision?
Ken Baguley | 12:32 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Sometime ago, I read that there are 180,000 deaths each year caused by mistakes
of doctors, hospitals etc. Is that still a good figure?
Anonymous | 12:43 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Clare's and Rick J's comments ask the same question in different ways
but it still comes down to is health care a right or a product for sale? Clare
asks why she should have to pay for her medications. It is very simple. You have
a need, and they have a solution if you want to buy it from them. Just like you
can buy food if you are hungry or a car if you need transportation. The
incentive to provide a product for needs is the opportunity to make a profit
from it. Without this incentive, companies will not make products to treat MS or
any other ailment.
Blame the Lawyers | 12:55 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Uh has no one else pointed out that the fact health care is so high is because
of lawsuits and lawyers? Sad, that Americans lack such reasoning skills. They
point the finger at everyone but the cause of the problem, which is over
aggressive lawyers driving up insurance costs of physicians.
Jenny | 1:22 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008
Hey, We demand expensive treatments (8:28 a.m.) -- why stop there? Let's
just load up all the Alzheimer's patients and disabled babies into a big
truck and drive it off a cliff. Think of all the money we could save on health
care!
You make me sick, you eugenicist pig.
You make me sick, you eugenicist pig.
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