Deseret News | Reader comments: Warrants could lead to more FLDS charges

Reader comments
Warrants could lead to more FLDS charges

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nosugrof | 1:53 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008

They are investing the wrong people.They should investigate CPS for abusing 400+ children. Angie Voss claimed that 48% of the men were involved in underage marriages. This is the same CPS who claimed that 31 0f 53 girls aged 14-17 had been or were pregnant. Only to see that number dwindle to 4 or 5. Yet the Deseret News, bless your hearts, still accepts the CPS word as the gospel truth.

Abotion analogy | 4:32 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008

I find it interesting how there really are two different points of view here to argue. One is people defending the right to be free from enslavmement from others, the other is the right exercise freedom of religion. Similar to the abortion issue. One side says right for a woman to decide what happens to her body, the other side says right to life for fetus. I think it really depends on which one the person benefits more from as to how the person decides what side to defend on this FLDS issue. We all have basic rights and sometimes they overlap.

zxcvbnm | 7:57 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Musser, the sister to Elisa was never at the ranch. Great informant!

Sarah, the alleged victim, was never at the ranch. Great victim!

How many more people that were never at the ranch will testify about what they saw, think they saw, or just pain imagined?
How many more witnesses will have never been at the scene?
I guess cps can fill in the blanks!

Comments continue below

Joey | 9:45 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Good to see Texas spending tens of millions of dollars trying to establish paternity and jurisdiction of the children of a few 16 year olds at YFZ. Why not rope off inner city Dallas and get DNA from everyone. They'll probably be hugely successful with a far higher cost/return ratio. There are hundreds of 13 year old prostitutes pimping in Dallas alone, not to mention all the baby daddies, forcing young girls to bear children and obtain welfare payments. These victims need your help too, Texas. The barrios have a problem too -- but that's more "cultural." Nonetheless, turn those places upside down, and you're bound to find a lot of pregnant/raped 14 year olds. Maybe you can hire more pranksters to give you the probable cause needed to get around the little issue of the 4th amendment.

ONE IS TO MANY | 11:16 a.m. Sept. 7, 2008

nosugrof --- One is to many, it doesen't matter if Texas was off in their count.

If proven guilty in court those involved in underage marriage need to "repent from afar" with Warren Jeffs in the "ultimate gated community".

Gal50 | 12:13 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

No quote from Rod Parker, who thought there were only a handful of underage marriages?

The FLDS needs to start sending its members to law school, because even if these cases don't result in convictions, all of these lawsuits are going to drive the organization into something akin to bankruptcy. Once a lawsuit is filed against an organization, even if it wins the case, it has kind of lost because it had to spend so much money defending itself.

In the Texas situation, the FLDS should want one case to go forward rather quickly. The Jeffs case would be a good pick if Arizona will release him to Texas, since he already lives in jail and another conviction isn't going to affect his lifestyle as much as the other members. Then all of the challenges can go against the Jeffs case rather than all six to ten cases.

At this point, the challenges appear to be the nature of the phone call, the raid of the entire compound and the law, which the legislator claimed in the press was designed specifically with the FLDS in mind. These cases, like the CPS ones, appear to be in jeopardy.

WashCo | 12:30 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Why do these obvious FLDS posters keep whinning about the Texas CPS? Having sex with children is just plain wrong. Wake up! Get a clue! Perversion is perversion regardless of what uncle Warren says.

CPS: Get a life | 1:42 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

It's time for CPS to put this thread to bed. They didn't get anything done the first dozen times, and they no longer have the national spotlight.

This is getting old, folks. CPS is a proven failure and they are displaying themselves as vindictive losers.

Leave the FLDS in peace.

Not just Girls, but Boys too | 2:07 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Why don't any states make laws against throwing young teen boys out of the house? Just so they can make room for polygamy?

These FLDS need to change their ways, not just with girls, but with boys too.

Cats | 3:00 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Well, the FLDS are blogging again. Same old people every time trying to convince the rest of us that they are victims. And, as usual, they focus on a bunch of silly trivia and frivolous issues that, they think, somehow become persuasive arguments that they are being railroaded.

The article stated very plainly that Becky Musser did not give specifics, but only testified to general information about behavior inside the cult.

Nobody is convinced by your blogs, so keep it up. The more you blog the more you discredit yourselves.

The investigation continues and we will see just how many of these criminal child rapists get arrested.

IT ISN'T OVER YET!

zxcvbnm | 2:58 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

No boys were thrown out of the YFZ ranch in Texas. I thought that the "lost boy issue had been settled. Looks like another Flora, Carolyn, Musser Tale sold to Doran.
Warrants based on testimony of persons never at the ranch and a raid based on a nonexistant person are bad enough.
Lets not drag up more "non evidence about nonexistant crimes.
One girl is already in foster care to protect her from a man in prison and another unindited man that CPS can't find.
Oh I get it.....the missing kid may be Merrill!

DR Don | 4:04 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Nice to see all the FLDS apologists here still beating the drums of their agenda!

J-man | 4:07 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Joey, how can you honestly defend the FLDS practice of marrying off 12 y/o girls to 50+ y/o men? That is clearly in the pedophile category.

wheels | 4:15 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

The wheels of justice just keep turning, don't they.

zxcvbnm | 4:39 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Finally cats........you recognize that the motives and agenda of CPS was based on "frivilous issues". Super. Now you are comprehending.

Every explanation of CPS for their actions has been bebunked and shot down like ducks in a barrel.

SCOTEX as well as the 5th circuit has limited further CPS mass abuse.
Now CPS is looking like a bunch of bumbling fools and the only explanation for their behavior is whoops.
Cats.......you have to do better than flds supporter or attack spelling to defend cps. How about calling the flds polygamists...........ouch that would hurt.

Joey | 4:52 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

J-man, your straw man argument isn't going to work with me. I'm defending Constitutional rights, of which the families at YFZ were violated, plain and simple.

common sense | 4:56 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Has anyone bothered to read the New Frontier for Families website?? It describers amoung other things, approx how many young boys and girl who have left FLDS, and how they are trying to Help them with housing, education, etc.

And Of course there will be more indictments! How do you know Musser didnt talk to family members on that ranch? They all had cell phones, many are living in San Antonio now, not on the ranch.

anon | 5:11 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

The article didn't say that Becky Musser was the inside informant. When specifically asked if she wwere, the answer was "no comment." Some of you seem to assume that that means that she was. It can alsmo mean that she was NOT. He just does not want to elaborate. Some posters are writing as if she WERE the inside informant and is therefore not credible because she did not live there. Maybe they should assume the opposite: that someone who live there was the informant.

tigerlily | 5:13 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

the cps agenda was based on a lie. constitutional rights were violated by the cps and the cps should be sued for it.

common sense | 5:20 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Joey, you dont have a constitutional right to marry or have sex with an underage girl, I dont care what religion you beleive.

J-man | 5:28 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Joey, is it the FLDS' constitutional right to marry off 12 y/o girls to 50+ y/o men? What about the rights of the underage girls? What about when Warren Jeffs tore apart a family by sending the father to repent from afar? And his/their rights were violated, plain and simple.

HeatherD | 5:39 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

If I see another substance-less post by Cats proclaiming those against what the CPS did as "FLDS bloggers", I think I'll vomit.

sowbelly | 5:58 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

can't we all just get along - obbomma for pres man!

zxcvbn | 6:15 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Ok ....Common sense, I'll read the site.

They all had cell phones????? We know they all had cell phones. It was CPS and the Flora crew that stated that they were denied access to communication. Thjose living in Sa were driven there as a condition of their parenting agreement.
Six month and one year rentals are common. May as well stay till this mess gets settled, they pay whether they live there or not.

ChemCast | 6:27 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

If guilty here is what should be done: round up all of these sex offending men and chemically castrate them! We don't need them to propagate their dirty little incestuous secrets.

awesomeron | 6:33 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Abortion is the most Vile of Human Rights violations. Human life begins at the Moment of Conception. Before that everyone has a choice, to conceive or not to conceive.

To associate this with the Sexual Assault, and Impregnation of Underage Girls, mostly by old creepy men who, to the FLDS, is outrages to say the least. Where there is a Choice. Between an Abortion person and a Right To Life Person in an Election, then the Right to Life person, and the Abortion Issue Trumps All Other Issues. Removing ourselves from the abomination of Abortion should be utmost in a Right To Life Persons Mind, with no other choice for a person that belongs to a Faith Group that clearly stands against Abortion. CTR Now.

Safe outlets must of course be provided for the Unwed Mother and child. This is called Adoption.

Some claim that Abortion should be allowed in the case of Rape or Incest. Incest is either Rape or by Consent. Rapes need to be reported quickly and every measure taken to prevent the conception in the first place. Other then that a Child should not be Aborted, except to save the mothers life.

zxcvbnm | 6:32 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

The "New Frontiers for Families" website sounds like a great idea.
As far as the FLDS is concerned there was an article recently that covered the NFFF home for ex flds teens. The article covered many "boys" that left the flds on their own accord. The reference to 13 to 23 year old boys and girsl kinda pushes the envelope and the 2000 number is inflated.
18 is an adult in this world, adults that made choices that they have the full adult right to make . The help is nice but the heck.....the definition is a bit broad.

Cats | 6:50 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

zxcbvmn: I didn't say that CPS' complaints are based on trivial issues. Your arguments are frivolous and you know it. These silly, sophomoric attacks on CPS and the State of Texas are intended to convince the rest of us that somehow all you innocent victims are being railroaded.

Child abuse, child rape, coersion, etc. are NOT trivial issues. I know you are trying to make it look like there is a groundswell of support for your cause, but there isn't. The fact is that decent people everywhere are sick to their stomachs about the lifestyle the FLDS have praticed in the shadows for lo these many years.

Warren Jeffs has turned the FLDS from a weird little group into something that is completely freakish and evil. You can't go on flaunting the law and mocking God forever. He has faced an earthly tribunal and will face a heavenly one.

The State of Texas has hundreds of thousands of pieces of evidence to investigate. It will take time. But, I wouldn't bank on getting any big judgments from lawsuits against CPS. It's pretty hard for perpetrators to win lawsuits when their crimes are so egregious.

Cats | 6:55 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

To HeatherD: Go ahead an vomit because you are going to see a lot more.

These people actually think they are fooling the rest of us. Apparently you do, too.

Joey | 7:01 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

The Constitutional Right is that granted in the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution to be left alone in your home free from search and seizure unless presented with a warrant, affirmed by oath, describing in particular the things or persons to be seized.

There were 80 or so families at YFZ who had their things and children taken. None of them was presented with said warrant as stipulated by the Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution.

re nosugrof | 1:53 a.m | 7:11 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

nosugrof, tell me, do girls make up stories about being forced to marry older men against their will?

What about the lost boys? Boys in their early teens who are kicked out of house and community before they are ready to take care of themself? This to make room for polygamy.

The FLDS are indeed a people in serious need of a cultural fix, since they won't do it for themself, society at large needs to do it for them.

Your whole lives seem to revolve around polygamy. It's as if there is nothing else in the universe that matters.

Many don't know or forget | 7:41 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

that 20% of all pregnancies are miscarried early on. Some people don't yet know that they were pregnant and some don't talk about the loss because of the emotional hurt it caused them. Perhaps some don't report it because of the far right groups that might judge them and wonder if they truly lost their baby or had an abortion.
It's time to stop judging women because of their reproductive system and start leaving decisions to them, their doctor and a third party (should they desire it). If they were raped or were abused in any way this should be reported as the crime that it is, but it isn't a person's right to judge what is decided upon as far as the pregnancy. A crime is a different issue than pregnancy.

common sense | 8:35 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

What Im saying about Rebecca Musser is that , how do you know she wasnt in communication with PEOPLE on that ranch the last year or two? There were musser children on the bishops list.
Im not talking about Flora Jessop going down to El Dorado in 2003, Im talking about the last year. Some of those who had left Flds were still talking to family members by phone.

common sense | 8:39 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Yes 18 is the adult world, and most of those kids had maybe an eighth grade education, so it would be hard to make a living and pay for a place to live. New Family Frontiers, is making it possible for these kids to get their high school diploma and help with getting them into college, giving them a place to live.

tigerlily | 8:47 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

abortion is wrong in any case

David O | 9:29 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

Jail Jail Jail, it will be great to see these predators go to jail.

To Joey | 9:40 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

You fail to mention why the fact that CPS chose to investigate this group of child molesters, rather than some other group should bother me.

When resources are limited, law enforcement has to choose how to allocate them. The fact that they choose one guilty person over another is of of very little constitutional moment.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

Anonymous | 9:41 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

I wish they would quit referring to these girls as "wives" or "married". They were neither married to these pervs or their wives. These guys already had wives, just because Warren Jeffs said a few words didn't make them married. It was all a lot of hocus pocus so they could sleep with young girls. These girls were used by grown men. They were lied to and told that this was what God wanted them to do. These pedophiles should be be prosecuted and put away.

Anonymous | 10:16 p.m. Sept. 7, 2008

These FLDS prisons need to be shut down. It isn't going to be pretty, but the longer we wait, the worse it will be. Go get 'em.

XFLDS | 3:34 a.m. Sept. 8, 2008

'Cats' needs a dose of rational thinking to realize that regardless of WHO it's being done to, or WHO is doing it, violations of constitutionally guaranteed rights are illegal.

It's obvious that 'cats' is incensed over the ALLEGED crimes of the FLDS, and has already been prosecutor, judge, and jury (probably informant as well); pronouncing a sentence of guilty and cramming it down all the reader's throats. That's bigotry, plain and simple.

're nosugrof' - Yes, girls do make up stories, in some cases (not all). What about the 'lost' boys? *Most* of them leave of their own accord, voluntarily, and would be *ne'er-do-wells* in ANY society.

Quit your yammering, and let's watch the legal system work.

Joey | 5:20 a.m. Sept. 8, 2008

No one is above the law. The Texas LE violated the rights of those innocent families at YFZ when they busted into their homes and took their children and effects without a individualized warrants for their particular homes.

Scarcity of resources is no excuse to break the law. Texas broke the law, and the Texas officials responsible will pay for it in Federal court.

zxcvbnm | 8:16 a.m. Sept. 8, 2008

One more time Cats.....I am not FLDS......and I "make light" of this situation because it is based on hearsay and hysteria.
From the book by Carolyn to the rantings of Flora the accusations are full of holes and are made by peopler with an agenda.
Even Musser being told something by someone at the ranch is hearsay......part of the out of control soap opera that this case has become.
The State has wasted 30 million on gossip and done it on the gossip generated by disgruntled ex-members. Read the STORIES by ex members and the wild accusations by CPS...........do I have to make a list again?
99% of this stuff is bunk.....Just ask the non-existant Sarah, the 37 year old teen, or the 23 year old "Lost Boy".

magdalena | 8:25 a.m. Sept. 8, 2008

Ziggy, my old friend.

The article quoted out of context. If you really read the site page on the lost boys project, you will find that they do not agree with the apologists. It clearly says that boys were asked to leave for trivial reasons, that they were not educated, that their families will not contact them, etc. All that stuff that the apologists discount. And this is a professional mental health organization not connected with the Floras and such.

J-man | 9:29 a.m. Sept. 8, 2008

Zxcvbnm, if are not FLDS then who are you to pass judgment on Carolyn and Flora and say that their accusations are full of holes? They lived it, not you.

nosugrof | 6:15 p.m. Sept. 8, 2008

It has been commonly observed that apostate literature is unreliable. You should always bear in mind is that those people who leave a religion have an incentive to emphaize the negative. What these people say reflect their current role as anti-polygamist activist rather than their actual experience in the FLDS. Carolyn Jessop testified that women and children were beaten at the XYZ Ranch. She was forced to admit that she had never at the XYZ yRanch. Her testimony is further contradicted by the mental health workers who observed the FLDS at Fort Concho and who saw no evidence that the women and chidren had been abused.

Get em | 6:37 p.m. Sept. 8, 2008

It is about time that they men are getting what is coming to them. The poor kids had to suffer too much already.

Nancy MacDougald | 9:18 p.m. Sept. 8, 2008

Polygamy ALWAYS leads to brutality against women and children, over time, as well as inbreeding and dangerous genetic diseases. It requires brutality because women must be disciplined to suppress jealousy. Male children must be expelled, and young girls must lose their innocence for the benefit of the sexual slavery exacted by the leaders. Shame on the mothers!!!

All readers should become educated about the genetic disease fumerase deficiency and the devastating, profound retardation of those who survive, and the astonishing number of infant deaths among this sick inbred cult.

One only needs to look at Muslims and their polygamous, cousin-marrying failure of civilization to know that the FLDS should be eradicated like a roach infestation.

zxcvbnm | 10:02 p.m. Sept. 8, 2008

Ok sports fans.....here's where interest in this story got started. I fell upon an article in a san angelo paper on 18 april. I looked at the accusations and began reading the history of the ex members. I looked at Floras site....Carolyns book...the Walls accusations. I watched as CPS and Doran explanations fell apart. I investigated Floras claims....the non escape of Carolyn and the wierd situation of Walls, including her sisters involvement in saving her confused sister.
I looked at the court hearings ....the SCOTEX and US 5th Circuit rulings.
I find it admireable that the guys leave the flds and get some schooling....nice that they have somewhere to go. But......23 is not a lost boy Flora.....Musser and Carolyn were never at the ranch. Escape is not driveing off with your brother and having a cellphone is not lack of communications.
This in my opinion is hyped bunk carried to an extreme to sell books. As a Texas taxpayer I have an interest in not wasteing my money and as an American I have an interest in our constitution.
All this noise to save people from a man in jail.........geezzzzzzz

J-man | 11:38 a.m. Sept. 9, 2008

Zxcvbnm, I appreciate your thorough reply. And yes, you are correct, Warren Jeffs is in jail, but his #1 henchman, Merril Jessop, is still roaming free.

Let's remember that Merril is the one who married off his 12 y/o daughter to 50+ y/o Warren Jeffs. And if Merril would do that to his own daughter, then it stands to reason that he wouldn't hesistate to marry off other underage girls too.

nosugrof | 3:20 p.m. Sept. 9, 2008

The charge that polygamy is always harmful to women and children is nonsense. After the 1953 Short Creek raid not one woman left polygamy. After the XYZ Raid, not one woman left the sect.Pay attention to the facts. Stop listening to the mad ravings of Carolyn and Flora Jessop.

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