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Utah banking on FLDS evidence
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Dyann | 4:04 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Why does Deseret continue to add a year here and there to these child brides.
It has been confirmed that Warren's youngest bride, shown in a passionate french kiss with him, was TWELVE at the time! NOT 13 years old.
It has been confirmed that Warren's youngest bride, shown in a passionate french kiss with him, was TWELVE at the time! NOT 13 years old.
Against It | 4:25 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I am against underage marriage and think that those who practice it need to
"repent from afar" with Warren Jeffs.
BUT
The long arm of the law had NO RIGHT to RAID A ENTIRE COMMUNITY. Individual homes with specific knowledge yes, but not a entire community.
BUT
The long arm of the law had NO RIGHT to RAID A ENTIRE COMMUNITY. Individual homes with specific knowledge yes, but not a entire community.
Comments continue below
Joey | 5:09 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
The chances that Rozita called under a 'Sarah' alias at the same time
that another 'Sarah' (who was never found) on the ranch happened to
call are miniscule to none. Indeed, the fact that 'Sarah' kept calling
dropping significant details, only indicates that Rozita was working with
someone involved in the raid, perhaps a Ranger.
The second warrant was based on viewing two "pregnant teenagers" who turned out to be adults. If that's what they use to justify searching and seizing 80 households, then it only betrays prejudice in assumming more than what they had evidence for. Doran's discounting of the Barlow phone call also shows prejudice and hence bad faith.
Finally, the search warrant is overly broad, covering 80+ households, when it was purported to only cover one.
The second warrant was based on viewing two "pregnant teenagers" who turned out to be adults. If that's what they use to justify searching and seizing 80 households, then it only betrays prejudice in assumming more than what they had evidence for. Doran's discounting of the Barlow phone call also shows prejudice and hence bad faith.
Finally, the search warrant is overly broad, covering 80+ households, when it was purported to only cover one.
Goodbye fourth amendment | 5:35 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
If this search warrant is upheld, the fourth amendment is gone and government
can search entire neighborhoods with impunity. No matter how you feel about
freedom of religion or the FLDS, you have to be against the state on this one.
Misconduct | 5:39 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
That so called evidence was improperly seized. Please prosecute them so they can
get their cases thrown out of court and they can then proceed to sue the
prosecutors. Or how about you just leave people alone? We don't need
government telling us how to live, that includes polygamists.
You will not get my vote this year Mark, even though I respect you. For 2 reason, 1. You aren't fit for duty, you need to get your health taken care of. 2. You are overzealous on this polygamy thing. It is ridiculous. Leave them alone.
You will not get my vote this year Mark, even though I respect you. For 2 reason, 1. You aren't fit for duty, you need to get your health taken care of. 2. You are overzealous on this polygamy thing. It is ridiculous. Leave them alone.
Cats | 5:52 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I hope they're able to be successful in using this evidence. It would be a
terrible injustice if this evidence is thrown out. That would allow these
perpetrators to get away with their crimes and the victims to continue to be
victimized.
This is really a sick environment that the FLDS live in.
This is really a sick environment that the FLDS live in.
FLDS, Mend Your Ways | 6:24 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
There is a law against under age marriages, there needs to be a law passed
against putting young teen boys out of the house to fend for themselves before
they are ready.
These FLDS not only abuse girls by forcing them to marry older men against their will, but by forcing boys out of the house to make room for polygamy.
At first I felt really sorry for them because the state comes in and separates them from their kids, then I found out they separate themselves from their own kids, at least by boys by banishing them from the house and their community.
I've heard it said before and I agree, the FLDS should be grateful that larger society is taking an interest in them and helping them to become better people.
These FLDS not only abuse girls by forcing them to marry older men against their will, but by forcing boys out of the house to make room for polygamy.
At first I felt really sorry for them because the state comes in and separates them from their kids, then I found out they separate themselves from their own kids, at least by boys by banishing them from the house and their community.
I've heard it said before and I agree, the FLDS should be grateful that larger society is taking an interest in them and helping them to become better people.
nosugrof | 6:30 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
All those calls were hoaxes. What was in plain view? Womwn who looked young who
turned out to be adults.
zxcvbnm | 6:48 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Oh yea....the other girls named Sarah....the hideing of sarah.....they all looked alike..old CPS speak for we are going to take them in.
CPS wanted to see a pregnant Sarah with a baby named sarah........they saw up to 50 pregnant teens........do we want to go down the CPS road paved with selectively poor eyesight and defective hearing.
Now we have "other calls" by poor abused girls when CPS and the bookpeddlers claimed that those poor abused people didn't have access to modern communications.
The CPS claim of seeing other signs of abuse is about credible as Jeffs claiming he is attracted to 80 year old women.....the poor guy just left his glasses in the car.
zxcvbnm | 7:00 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Just an idea here.....the calls that were made from the ranch on cellphones during the raid could have been checked against cellphone records.
Every flds phone kept by the women were siezed while the women were in custody and cellphones held by CPS and LE should have been looked at.
Is it to late to check phone records?
Bob Pomeroy | 7:07 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Overly-zealous police activity can insulate the whole community from
prosecution.
gretchen | 8:34 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
if no flds are held accountable for the heinous number and types of crimes they
daily perpetuate under veil of religious freedom, then all pedophiles, tax
cheats, labor law breakers, and domestic violence perps should be sprung,
nation-wide. Is that what you"constitution defenders" want? just turn
all US laws upside down to keep these freaks"free" to do what they
"believe?" Spend about a thousand hours reading about them. You will
be so angry you'll wish they had died out naturally long ago.
janeslogin | 8:36 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
In grade school, 65 years ago I was taught that people came to America to avoid
government's religious persecution, seizing land of the objectionable
sects, that sort of thing.
I appears persecution as was taught in grade school is quite widespread in the US
I appears persecution as was taught in grade school is quite widespread in the US
just me | 8:47 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
"sarah" is a 30 year old mental case who has made such calls before.
just me | 8:49 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
to dyann: 1 year is added to everyones age every year. people have birthdays
everyday
just me | 8:55 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
zxcvbnm:: they saw 3 women who they ASSUMED were teens who were pregnant. those
women turned out to be adults. there were NO pregnant teens
mypc | 8:56 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
At last count I saw about 200 cases closed. Maybe it will quietly be done in
almost all cases. I wonder if the flds will stay at YFZ ranch. Were it me I
would be having the young teen males working there and learning a trade.
Hmmmm!!!!! | 9:20 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Isn't Mark Shurtleff suppose to be, as a public official, making sure that
ALL CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OF ALL CITIZENS ARE NOT TRAMPLED ON??? If the FLDS
have things that they need to work on, why not go about it the LAWFUL WAY?
Government officials are not above the law any more than the people they
represent. If there is a protocol in the lawbooks as to do searches, etc. Do
not government officials have a guide book as to what they can and can't
do? Or does the law read, "Well, except if Mark Shurtleff or Texas decide
different?" Quit using the excuse of "the FLDS deserve it" to
override the laws that have been set up to protect ALL AMERICANS. Your rights
are in danger as much as the FLDS if government officials are upheld in unlawful
seizures and searches. That is what America has had a problem with the communist
countries for. Now they are doing it themselves!! Hmmmmmm!!!!!?????
Cats | 9:22 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I believe that most of the evidence seized will probably stand up and be
admissable in court.
Data | 9:43 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
The fact that evidence is illegal is still evidence and will be stored in a
National Crime Computer for "data" that will be used as fact in the
future.
Just another way to put a square peg in a round hole in the name of "Gods Children"
Just another way to put a square peg in a round hole in the name of "Gods Children"
Gal50 | 10:16 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
It must drive prosecutors crazy when perpetrators have a system for skirting the
law. If news reports are accurate, it is clear that the FLDS knew the law,
elected to disobey it and protected the offenders through various means such as
indoctrinating members to be obedient.
Had this been a typical neighborhood or a school, the children would have gone home to their parents and reported sexual abuse, but the FLDS are set up in a way that sexual abuse goes unreported and when discovered, the FLDS victims refuse to testify.
So, in light of this, prosecutors must be very aggressive to right the wrongs of the FLDS. They have to conduct massive raids and not investigate too thoroughly fake phone calls.
The two choices are either that the FLDS is allowed to hide its criminal behavior or the prosecutors are allowed to be excessively aggressive in prosecuting the crime. Neither option is very attractive to American citizens. It is hard knowing that girls are most likely still being raped in Utah and Arizona, just as it will be hard to deal with the courts upholding the right of law enforcement to conduct broad searches.
Had this been a typical neighborhood or a school, the children would have gone home to their parents and reported sexual abuse, but the FLDS are set up in a way that sexual abuse goes unreported and when discovered, the FLDS victims refuse to testify.
So, in light of this, prosecutors must be very aggressive to right the wrongs of the FLDS. They have to conduct massive raids and not investigate too thoroughly fake phone calls.
The two choices are either that the FLDS is allowed to hide its criminal behavior or the prosecutors are allowed to be excessively aggressive in prosecuting the crime. Neither option is very attractive to American citizens. It is hard knowing that girls are most likely still being raped in Utah and Arizona, just as it will be hard to deal with the courts upholding the right of law enforcement to conduct broad searches.
common sense | 11:55 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
they are still fighting over evidence of the Escalde warren jeffs was caught in?
LOL
The car was registered to Waylan Neilson, how hard could that be?
Did warren steal his car? LOL I doubt it. There were lots of accessories in Warren Jeffs running, why havent they arrested THOSE people???
The car was registered to Waylan Neilson, how hard could that be?
Did warren steal his car? LOL I doubt it. There were lots of accessories in Warren Jeffs running, why havent they arrested THOSE people???
Mad Dog's | 12:26 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
One Bone
They Burned the evidence in the Waco Case
They Burned the evidence in the Waco Case
Hmmmm!!!!!--Not | 12:34 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
No, Mark Shurtleff is not responsible to prevent Texas CPS from violating the
rights of residents of Texas. In fact, if he's in the role of prosecutor,
Mark Shurtleff isn't even responsible to insure that any Utah
defendants' rights are protected. It's the responsibility of the
judiciary. Check it out--it's called the Constitution.
Ralph | 12:43 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
It bothers me that Mark Shurtleff in Utah and other officials are gloating over
the possibility of getting evidence from the Texas raid which will enable them
to prosecute the FLDS polygamists. The FLDS and their practice of polygamy is an
outgrowth of a former LDS practice founded by Joseph Smith whom the LDS and FLDS
still revere but whose polygamy the FLDS still practice. Child brides and
marriages were common in those days. Even former Utah governor Mike Leavitt had
a polygamous great grandmother married at age 15. I say leave these people alone
because there are more heinous crimes going on in our society and in the country
to be dealt with.
common sense | 1:06 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
THOSE DAYS!!
This 2008, we arent living in THOSE days! There are laws now. Everyone has constitutional freedoms, but that freedom doesnt allow you break laws.
This 2008, we arent living in THOSE days! There are laws now. Everyone has constitutional freedoms, but that freedom doesnt allow you break laws.
Rebecca | 1:33 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Hey, Ralph old boy. My advise to you is to get a life!!
just me | 2:28 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
cats:: the evidence that was taken in april cannot be used as it was taken
illegally.
Bogus Bill | 2:38 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Why was jeffs wife and his brother that was driveing the escalade not charged
with adeing and abbetting a fugitive?
Interloper | 2:38 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I fully expect FLDS members and apologists to be claiming there was no evidence
of crimes having been committed long after the current indicted men are
convicted and serving their sentences. They are so thoroughly indoctrinated
that NOTHING the FLDS does can ever be wrong in their eyes.
Speaking of persons who should go to prison, where is Merril Jessop?
Speaking of persons who should go to prison, where is Merril Jessop?
Tammy | 2:59 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Re Ralph,
Polygamy is for selfish, self indulging men. Why would a good loving God choose to make women suffer? He wouldn't! You are seeing things from the point of view of an all out dated angry old man.
In the 1800's woman were not treated as equals to men. They were often abused and shoved around. Thank GOD things have changed. The world is evolving from a mans barbaric self centered world. So perhaps you need to catch up with times and learn that woman are humans too. FLDS brainwash their woman into this barbaric practice, and making them believe it is from God. Most of us with a brain can see through all the craziness that FLDS preach. So stop kidding yourself.
Polygamy is for selfish, self indulging men. Why would a good loving God choose to make women suffer? He wouldn't! You are seeing things from the point of view of an all out dated angry old man.
In the 1800's woman were not treated as equals to men. They were often abused and shoved around. Thank GOD things have changed. The world is evolving from a mans barbaric self centered world. So perhaps you need to catch up with times and learn that woman are humans too. FLDS brainwash their woman into this barbaric practice, and making them believe it is from God. Most of us with a brain can see through all the craziness that FLDS preach. So stop kidding yourself.
justthinking | 3:49 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I wonder, how can people that get so angry and vindictive, so caught up in the
news that is most probably not all true, judge a peaceable people? What would
have YOU people done if YOUR neighborhood had been raided? YOUR temple
desecrated? YOUR children stolen? YOUR rights refused? WHO will stand up for
YOU when it is YOUR turn to be persecuted? Oh, yes, it will come. As sure as
YOU let the GOVERNMENT of USA do this to others. Yes, it will come. And WHO
will there be to stop it? I say, lets do all in our power to recover a lost way
of thinking. America fought and won a war for FREEDOM OF RELIGION once. Could
it ever fight that war again and win? Not with corrupt leaders, but possibly so
with leaders who would involve Heavenly Father and His Spirit as there guide.
justthinking | 4:01 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Just as I thought. If someone actually defends or talks in favor of the FLDS,
you just eliminate their comments. That is easy. Just like the corrupt leaders
of this once great nation. If what you like isn't written, it is quietly
omitted.
zxcvbnm | 4:22 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Re just me: I know the actual numbers. The point is that the grounds to gather the evidence for the second wattant are based on false observations, and that is giving CPS some credit. Everything they saw and heard was blown out of proportion.
The first warrant got them in the door to look for a nonexistant person......the second was based on "evidence" of abuse they suspected. What they saw was nothing.....three pregnant women...no toys.....pictures of Jeffs.
If the evidence holds up on the testimony of blind and deaf CPS we are in trouble as a country.
common sense | 4:56 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
No one is denying you can beleive whatever you want. But if your belief includes
actions against the law, you just went over the line!
The constitution doesnt protect MEN who sexually abuse little girls, even for RELIGION!
The constitution doesnt protect MEN who sexually abuse little girls, even for RELIGION!
Red | 6:58 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
mypc 8:56 am: "At last count I saw about 200 cases closed."
"Cases closed," yes. "CPS out of their lives," no way.
Wish it were so, but it's not.
The kids you refer to have been dropped from court supervision -- and, therefore, from the news' radar.
CPS still has these them all under its control. CPS still claims the right to investigate, interview, abduct, etc., as needed "in the best interests of the children." The only difference is that the meddling is now completely unmonitored.
Press doesn't report.
Court doesn't monitor.
"Cases closed," yes. "CPS out of their lives," no way.
Wish it were so, but it's not.
The kids you refer to have been dropped from court supervision -- and, therefore, from the news' radar.
CPS still has these them all under its control. CPS still claims the right to investigate, interview, abduct, etc., as needed "in the best interests of the children." The only difference is that the meddling is now completely unmonitored.
Press doesn't report.
Court doesn't monitor.
Green | 8:16 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Well gee, I'm just totally flabbergasted!!!!!
x | 9:10 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
There probably will be more cases or concerns headed toward the Texas Supreme
Court. In this article, it states The Texas Supreme Court found that the state
or cps did some wrong, and the Supreme court returned the children. I think the
Supreme court will step in again. Everything that i hear is about what Jeffs,
did at least 2 years ago. So, Jeffs is in prison and life has moved on. But, I
haven't seen no updates on how the flds is running marriages and ect, since
jeffs has been put away. It sounds like the FLDS is staying on good terms. Ok,
Texas has all personal records about under age marriages and the bad things,
while Jeffs was in control. So, what are the States that these people live in
going to do know? Take 8000 people or more that practice polygamy throw them in
jail, take their kids, and seize all of their money? Will that fix the over all
big problem? Will telling a women that is with FLDS not to listen to her husband
going to fix any problems? Yah, the women will be out of her home and homeless
with out her kids.
just me | 10:28 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
zxc::: the first warrant was based on a hoax. that never should have happened.
evidence taken there can not be used
just me | 10:30 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
red::: 253 cases have been dropped. they are no longer under cps control.
J-man | 9:26 a.m. Sept. 3, 2008
Well, if there's no case against the FLDS and no further charges coming,
then why is Merill Jessop still in hiding?
just me | 11:59 a.m. Sept. 3, 2008
J-man:: merill jessop has been in court
J-man | 2:20 p.m. Sept. 3, 2008
Just me, Merril didn't attend his daughter's court hearing, so this is
news to the rest of the world...
just me | 3:01 p.m. Sept. 3, 2008
he appeared at his own hearing
just me | 3:29 p.m. Sept. 3, 2008
J-man--- merill jessop turned himself in with 4 other men on july 28. they were
all released on bail
realitycheck | 5:18 p.m. Sept. 3, 2008
am I the only one that realizes "just me" is really tigerlily in
disguise?
no need to hide, girl. or is that an FLDS habit that's just too hard to break?
and send all these kids home. we have enough dueling banjos out and about anyway. If they're willing to live like this, why do we care?
no need to hide, girl. or is that an FLDS habit that's just too hard to break?
and send all these kids home. we have enough dueling banjos out and about anyway. If they're willing to live like this, why do we care?
J-man | 6:49 p.m. Sept. 3, 2008
Just me, you've got the wrong Merril Jessop. I'm talking about the
70+ leader of the FLDS at the YFZ ranch. He is the one who is in hiding because
he doesn't want to spend his "golden years" in a cell along with
Warren Jeffs.
just me | 7:25 p.m. Sept. 3, 2008
realitycheck: who cares who i am.
just me | 7:27 p.m. Sept. 3, 2008
they have had all those who had warrants in custody and have released them
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The other warrant involved, sought after entry, and the evidence gathered as a result of being in plain view, would not be effected even if the original warrant were infirm.
Furthermore, lawyers for the FLDS have already engaged in delaying tactics that proved futile, such as challenging the grand jury and jurisdiction. What needs to happen is for the courts to hear to merits of these cases.