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Readers' forum: LDS, Demos alike on abortion
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@Joseph | 12:34 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
The Dems deleted the term "rare". Check your facts next time. BTW
Mr. Obamanation supports a womens right to choose life or death even after the
birth of the child. Sad!
John C. | 12:34 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Please don't try to liken political parties to religious faiths. But since
you did I'll say the libral demos views are so fare to the other extream of
the LDS Church and most other Chirstian churches. If you believe librals want
rare abortion your running with blinders on. They have always wanted it and
have it on demand.
Come to reality
Come to reality
Comments continue below
welcome to Utah | 12:41 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
No matter what the condition of our country is in, how many problems we have,
how many people are starving or dying or whatever, people in Utah will continue
to base their vote for president (and every other position) based soley on
abortion, and little else. It's stunning. Listen closey, Utah: REPUBLICANS
ARE JUST AS PRO-CHOICE AS DEMOCRATS!! What have the republicans EVER done to
criminalize abortion? NOTHING, and they NEVER will! They've had their
chances, too. So please, people, stop voting in inferior people to office,
people who will continue to erode our lives, based on an irrelevant issue.
John C. | 3:14 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
To welcome to Utah: It is interesting that you say "no matter how many
people are starving or dying or whatever." Do you even know how many
children are killed by abortion every year. And do you realize that as members
of the LDS Church we give more to more causes then anyone else. So stop trying
to bring people of Utah down. We had relief supplies headed to the southern
states long before huricane Gustov came to sure. What did you do?
JMT | 5:01 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
In Denver there was a gathering, with press conference, of pro-life Democrats.
Very small turnout and an even smaller percentage of Democrats as a whole.
I know many Democrats that are quite rational on the subject and believe just as this letter writer does. Sadly, the Democratic party as a whole is much more liberal on their views.
For years Utah Democrats had to content themselves with language that allowed for abortion only in cases of "life or health" of the mother. Legally, the "or health" portion has allowed tens of millions of abortions since Roe v Wade.
In other parts of the country Democrats could brag that exact same language almost allowed 'abortion on demand.'
Utah Democrats are constantly faced with the reality that their part as a whole is just as radical as they seem on the 5PM news. Not a fun position to try and defend, even if my Utah Democratic buddies don't support 55 million abortions in the US.
I know many Democrats that are quite rational on the subject and believe just as this letter writer does. Sadly, the Democratic party as a whole is much more liberal on their views.
For years Utah Democrats had to content themselves with language that allowed for abortion only in cases of "life or health" of the mother. Legally, the "or health" portion has allowed tens of millions of abortions since Roe v Wade.
In other parts of the country Democrats could brag that exact same language almost allowed 'abortion on demand.'
Utah Democrats are constantly faced with the reality that their part as a whole is just as radical as they seem on the 5PM news. Not a fun position to try and defend, even if my Utah Democratic buddies don't support 55 million abortions in the US.
JayMar | 5:45 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Mr. Price's comments are so far off base that nothing could be further from
the truth and even blasphemous. The Democrats are the party of Babies be damned
and abortion on demand and let the government pay for it. The Democrats are so
far from the teachings of the Church because they force people into unwanted
taxation and have been the party of tax, tax, tax. And why, because they
don't like people owning property or having money. Steal from those who
have earned a decent living and give to those who are 5th and 6th generation
welfare recipients, i.e., New Orleans was a pitifull example of a Government
welfare state that expected every one but themselves to rescue and save them.
No, the Republicans are much closer to the teachings of the LDS Church than
today's Democrat party who believes in self-indulgence at the
Taxpayer's expense. Mr. Price you are self-deluded as is commenter
"God is Right, McCain is Wrong." God save us if Obamanation is elected
President; a true Christian despiser and baby-killer proponent.
Mike Richards | 6:10 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
How low will the Democrats stoop to equate the 48,000,000 abortions allowed in
the United States to policies of the LDS Church.
The issue at hand is agency. A woman has the right to choose - once. If she chooses to have sex and that act results in pregnancy, she has made the choice to let that baby live. If she has not had a choice in having sex, i.e., rape or incest, then she still has the right to make a choice about the baby. When her life is in total danger and there is no doubt that bearing a child will kill her, then she has the right to decide whether to live or to die at the expense of the baby.
Review the Democrat position and you'll see that they believe in abortion on demand, at any time and for any reason. Add to that, the stand that Mr. Obama took as a state senator in Illinois, and the right extends past the time of birth. He voted to allow a live, breathing baby to die if it survived the abortion attempt!
The issue at hand is agency. A woman has the right to choose - once. If she chooses to have sex and that act results in pregnancy, she has made the choice to let that baby live. If she has not had a choice in having sex, i.e., rape or incest, then she still has the right to make a choice about the baby. When her life is in total danger and there is no doubt that bearing a child will kill her, then she has the right to decide whether to live or to die at the expense of the baby.
Review the Democrat position and you'll see that they believe in abortion on demand, at any time and for any reason. Add to that, the stand that Mr. Obama took as a state senator in Illinois, and the right extends past the time of birth. He voted to allow a live, breathing baby to die if it survived the abortion attempt!
East of Utah | 7:02 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I take issue with Mr Price's claim about the position of The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on abortion. In 1973 the First Presidency
released a statement that in part said, "The Church opposes abortion and
councils its members not to submit to or perform an abortion except in the rare
cases where..the life or good health of the mother is seriously
endangered...Members of the Church guilty of being parties to the sin of
abortion must be subjected to the disiplinary action of the councils of the
Church as circumstances warrant." Reading the complete statement will no
doubt confirm a very clear demarcation between what the LDS Church teaches and
what political platforms profess. Abortion is a terrible and awful practice.
glenn | 7:27 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
We can all agree that the government can not prove someone has had an abortion,
much less punish them for it; yet hopefully we all agree abortion is not right,
and I think most Americans agree on that. The Catholic church doesn't allow
for them even on conditions of rape, incest or if life of mother is in
jeopardy,( if it is murder then why make exception for murder?). I wish we
could all agree that in many regards the Dems are pro life (anti-war) and in
many regards the Repubs are pro choice (anti-government involvement and pro gun)
and realize most Americans are both pro choice and pro life, (you can be both).
Anonymous | 7:29 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Well, you stirred it up, anyway, Mr. Price. There really are only a few issues
in Utah, those being guns, god, gays and abortion. There's war and economy
and other stuff in other parts of the country, but here social issues are king
and they're all right and wrong, black and white. Attempting to gray them
won't work, but it does stir things up.
ECR | 7:59 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I have a question. This morning Joe Scarborough, the moderate former Republican
Congressman, argued on his show, Morning Joe, that those opposed to Roe v. Wade,
including Governor Palin from Alaska, are not suggesting that abortion be
outlawed throughout the land but, rather, that it be turned back to a decision
by the various states.
My question is - Do those who oppose Roe v. Wade who contribute to this page agree with Joe's assessment? He and Chris Mathews had a vigorous debate about that issue. I genuinely would like to know. Thanks, in advance, for your honest and candid answers.
My question is - Do those who oppose Roe v. Wade who contribute to this page agree with Joe's assessment? He and Chris Mathews had a vigorous debate about that issue. I genuinely would like to know. Thanks, in advance, for your honest and candid answers.
KVC | 8:33 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Anyone who argues the Demos are more aligned with the LDS Church than
REpublicans truly does not have any understanding of Church doctrine and/or the
Democratic party beliefs.
The LDS Church allows very few exceptions, which account for only ~1% of all abortions. Democrats support the right to all of the other 99% of abortions as well, against LDS beliefs. Most Republicans support the exact same LDS view. As for the Democratic views on everything else, they go against the Church in so many areas, like Gay marriage. The First Presidency supports a Constitutional Amendment to ban it. Democrats want it nationwide.
How is supporting the right to keep and bear arms anti-life? Republicans oppose the illegal use of guns to commit murder, but we do support our right to protect ourselves and family. I am surprised that Democrats oppose shooting an individual who tries to harm you or your family. I do not support the philosophy that I should sacrifice myself and family to protect the life of the criminal. Besides, guns were illegal in DC for years, and they still had one of the highest violent crime rates in the Nation.
And hunting is not murder.
The LDS Church allows very few exceptions, which account for only ~1% of all abortions. Democrats support the right to all of the other 99% of abortions as well, against LDS beliefs. Most Republicans support the exact same LDS view. As for the Democratic views on everything else, they go against the Church in so many areas, like Gay marriage. The First Presidency supports a Constitutional Amendment to ban it. Democrats want it nationwide.
How is supporting the right to keep and bear arms anti-life? Republicans oppose the illegal use of guns to commit murder, but we do support our right to protect ourselves and family. I am surprised that Democrats oppose shooting an individual who tries to harm you or your family. I do not support the philosophy that I should sacrifice myself and family to protect the life of the criminal. Besides, guns were illegal in DC for years, and they still had one of the highest violent crime rates in the Nation.
And hunting is not murder.
Mike Richards | 8:35 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
@ ECR, 7:59,
Clever wording, but passing the buck to the States rather than the Federal Government, still begs the question. What gives a woman the right to destroy an unborn child after she chose to participate in the activity that created that child?
In any other circumstance, no one is ever allowed to take the life of another human being without a judge, a jury and years of litigation. Abortion does away with the judge, the jury, the years of litigation and lets one person decide whether another person lives or dies.
Clever wording, but passing the buck to the States rather than the Federal Government, still begs the question. What gives a woman the right to destroy an unborn child after she chose to participate in the activity that created that child?
In any other circumstance, no one is ever allowed to take the life of another human being without a judge, a jury and years of litigation. Abortion does away with the judge, the jury, the years of litigation and lets one person decide whether another person lives or dies.
GeeBee | 8:37 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
How about this...if democrats concede that abortion is murder, will republicans
concede that war is also?
KVC | 8:39 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
It has been asked why Republicans have not outlawed abortion yet. The fact is
they have tried, and if you think they have not you are either lying or naive.
The issue with abortion has been taken up in many states and laws have been
passed, but courts have struck them down. Because of Roe vs Wade, it will take
either a Constitutional Amendment (near impossible for anything these days), or
the Supreme Court to overturn it. To get the Supreme Court to rule against
abortion rights will require more Conservative justices. The only way to get
Conservative justices is through a Republican President.
Barack Obama will appoint judges that will continue to allow abortion under any circumstance. He even referred to having a baby as "punishment", and would prefer his daughters have an abortion if they got pregnant when they did not want to. That is how liberals see children, as a punishment. How is that in line with LDS doctrine Mr Price?
Barack Obama will appoint judges that will continue to allow abortion under any circumstance. He even referred to having a baby as "punishment", and would prefer his daughters have an abortion if they got pregnant when they did not want to. That is how liberals see children, as a punishment. How is that in line with LDS doctrine Mr Price?
@anonymous 7:29am | 8:45 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Yes we are so backwoods here in the state of Utah.
You talk about wars in other parts...
True, their is an almighty war going on right now and it involves the defenseless, innocent unborn!
You talk about wars in other parts...
True, their is an almighty war going on right now and it involves the defenseless, innocent unborn!
Anonymous | 8:45 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I'm afraid Mike Richards has been listening to Rush Limbaugh too much.
Neocons talk and talk about overturning Roe v Wade and nothing ever happens other than some noise around election time.
Q: Why aren't Cannon, Hatch, Bennett, et al. lobbying for the overturn? :>
Neocons talk and talk about overturning Roe v Wade and nothing ever happens other than some noise around election time.
Q: Why aren't Cannon, Hatch, Bennett, et al. lobbying for the overturn? :>
Ultra Bob | 8:45 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
People who believe that killing a unborn child is murder and therefor very bad,
and at the same time believe the killing of other real live humans in
political/economic wars is good, are hypocrits.
No one protects children much | 8:49 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I read a quote, from an early LDS leader, I forget the name, stating women
should not have an abortion if raped, for if they do, they will be comitting a
greater sin than the rapist.
Modern LDS doctrine has softened, leaving the decision now, if a woman is raped, to be decided by prayer.
Other than this, abortions are not sanctioned by the LDS church, other than this, they are not to be rare, they are to be non-existant.
The democrats saying it should be rare is lip service only. Under their and the republicans watch, nothing has been done to make it rare.
Republicans are only anti abortion in lip service. Reagan never made this a priority, his domestic priority was lowering taxes, mostly on the very rich. When Reagan had the chance to do something about abortion, he put Sandra Occonnor on the court, which is why abortion is still legal.
Modern LDS doctrine has softened, leaving the decision now, if a woman is raped, to be decided by prayer.
Other than this, abortions are not sanctioned by the LDS church, other than this, they are not to be rare, they are to be non-existant.
The democrats saying it should be rare is lip service only. Under their and the republicans watch, nothing has been done to make it rare.
Republicans are only anti abortion in lip service. Reagan never made this a priority, his domestic priority was lowering taxes, mostly on the very rich. When Reagan had the chance to do something about abortion, he put Sandra Occonnor on the court, which is why abortion is still legal.
Really??? | 8:53 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
How can one in the minority REALLY believe he speaks for the majority?
grundle | 8:57 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I have some boilerplate issues that the candidate has to pass muster on before
they earn my vote.
Abortion is one of them (among many). To characterize a party as being the "right" one is a very limited view and should be corrected.
Please...vote for the candidate that represents a stand you agree with on your boilerplate issues... not what party they belong to.
One of the failings of politics in the US is the polarization that has occurred due to our two party system.
Abortion is one of them (among many). To characterize a party as being the "right" one is a very limited view and should be corrected.
Please...vote for the candidate that represents a stand you agree with on your boilerplate issues... not what party they belong to.
One of the failings of politics in the US is the polarization that has occurred due to our two party system.
to: @Joseph | 9:01 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
With all due respect, I checked my facts and you are wrong. The Democratic
platform does say "rare" and at the Saddleback Forum Obama talked
about the need to make abortions even more rare. You are the one who needs to
check his facts. >the author
Mike R. | 9:17 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I've never read once in any Scripture or Ensign or First Presidency letter
that says,"Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare." What I have
read is that abortion is a sin like unto murder and only have one if the life of
the mother is at stake or from rape or incest. And only after consultation with
doctors, religious leaders, and parents if necessary. Doesn't sound like
the Democrat reasoning for having abortions.
Gee, I wonder if this guy goes to the same church that I do?
Gee, I wonder if this guy goes to the same church that I do?
Mike Richards | 9:27 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Section 3.2.3 paragraph two, under Reproductive Rights (as posted on
Wikepedia):
"The Democratic Party opposes attempts to reverse the 1973 Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade, which declared abortion to be a constitutionally-protected right, and Planned Parenthood v. Casey which lays out the legal framework in which government action alleged to violate that right is assessed by courts. As a matter of the right to privacy and of gender equality, many Democrats believe all women should have the ability to choose to abort without governmental interference. They believe that each woman, conferring with her conscience, has the right to choose for herself whether abortion is morally correct. Many Democrats also believe that poor women should have a right to publicly funded abortions."
"The Democratic Party opposes attempts to reverse the 1973 Supreme Court decision Roe v. Wade, which declared abortion to be a constitutionally-protected right, and Planned Parenthood v. Casey which lays out the legal framework in which government action alleged to violate that right is assessed by courts. As a matter of the right to privacy and of gender equality, many Democrats believe all women should have the ability to choose to abort without governmental interference. They believe that each woman, conferring with her conscience, has the right to choose for herself whether abortion is morally correct. Many Democrats also believe that poor women should have a right to publicly funded abortions."
Oh Please | 9:43 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Demos are much closer to LDS positions. Demos = party of Lazarus. Repubs =
party of the rich guy who "lifted up his eyes in hell, being in
torment."
Cats | 9:48 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I've always wondered how LDS Democrats manage to rationalize how they vote.
Now, I know. It's because they don't have a clue what the positions
of the Church are. And, they don't have a clue what the positions of the
Democrats are.
Thank you to the writer and "God is right, McCain is wrong. You have solved what, for me, has been a great mystery for many years.
Thank you to the writer and "God is right, McCain is wrong. You have solved what, for me, has been a great mystery for many years.
RANDY FORD | 9:50 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
The debate misses the point. It's simple. Everyone falls into one of two
camps: Either you 48,000,000 dead unborn babies abhorent or you do not. If you
find 48,000,000 dead unborn wrong, you will want to work to PREVENT access to
ABORTION ON DEMAND. You will NOT be a Democrat. You MAY be a Republican. You
may be LDS.
If you ARE LDS, you face a simple choice. You can NOT be both a good Mormon and a "good" Democrat. If you are true to the teachings of the Church (free agency, value of life, accountability, etc), you can NOT be a good Democrat (abortion on demand, confiscatory taxation for INvoluntary charitable giving, little or no personal responsibility).
Can it be anymore simple? NO!
If you ARE LDS, you face a simple choice. You can NOT be both a good Mormon and a "good" Democrat. If you are true to the teachings of the Church (free agency, value of life, accountability, etc), you can NOT be a good Democrat (abortion on demand, confiscatory taxation for INvoluntary charitable giving, little or no personal responsibility).
Can it be anymore simple? NO!
Liberal Larry | 10:02 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
It's ironic but the huge number of unwanted pregnancies in the United
States is probably the fault of the conservatives in our country.
"Abstinence Only" programs and restrictions on sex ed, and birth
control education, have prevented the best means of abortion reduction, which is
informed people who use contraception.
DBG | 10:03 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Like I said, you can't legislate morality. That is the thing that irks me
is republicans take the God-given right of free agency away. To do otherwise, is
to enact a Plan of Lucifer. Do you really beleive the City of Enoch was lifted
into Heaven by passing moral laws?
One can only teach by example, not by mandate.
One can only teach by example, not by mandate.
Stop worrying about | 10:04 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
things that don't concern you directly. I am a woman that has had numerous
miscarraiges. People seem to worry about the "taking of life" in
abortions, but they don't consider the fact that nature does this itself to
at least 20% of pregnancies. People don't hear about it because it usually
happens early on. There are some circumstances that needs a doctor's care
in early pregnancy. It is traumatic and is nobody's business as to how the
pregnancy ended (early on). I do take issue with later abortions (past twelve
weeks). But these account for a very small percentage of them and they are
usually performed to possibly save a mother's life.
If you don't like aboritions then don't participate in them! And let's hope that you are never put in the hard situations that a number of women find themselves in.
If you don't like aboritions then don't participate in them! And let's hope that you are never put in the hard situations that a number of women find themselves in.
Anonymous | 10:04 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
No, no, no Randy.
Nice try in black-and-whiting the issue, but only today's shallow-thinking neocons are buying into the old "if you're not with us - you must hate babies" BS.
The issue is far more complex than how you are trying to hoodwink us into believing.
That's why Roe v Wade still stands.
Government should never intervene into the privacy of a woman and her God.
Nice try in black-and-whiting the issue, but only today's shallow-thinking neocons are buying into the old "if you're not with us - you must hate babies" BS.
The issue is far more complex than how you are trying to hoodwink us into believing.
That's why Roe v Wade still stands.
Government should never intervene into the privacy of a woman and her God.
To Randy Ford | 10:08 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
How can you be a good Mormon and a republican? Elected Utah Republicans are the
most corrupt in the country (especially the state legislature), but I guess if
they're "pro life" their corruption doesn't matter.
Good GOP | 10:11 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
If you cannot be a "good" Mormon and a "good" Democrat
because of LDS teachings on abortion, then you also cannot be a "good"
Mormon and a "good" Republican, because of LDS teachings on opposing
war and proclaiming peace.
Not to mention LDS teachings on thrift.
Not to mention LDS teachings on thrift.
Cats | 10:27 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
The comments made by "To Randy Ford" and "Good GOP" both
illustrate the point I made above. LDS Democrats don't have a clue about
the positions of the Church, the positions of the two parties and what's
actually going on in the world.
Secular Alternative | 10:30 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Then again, we could just be honest and acknowledge that attempting to
incorporate sectarian beliefs into a secular society is dangerous to civil
liberties, impractical/impossible to enforce, socially divisive and ruinously
expensive.
Keep your religious beliefs out of my government, please.
Keep your religious beliefs out of my government, please.
Thomas | 10:35 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
If the abortion-on-demand absolutists are correct, and an unborn child is not an
independent entity, but rather a disposable part of a woman's body, then
why should the Democrats care about whether it's "rare"?
If a fetus is part of a woman's body, then government has no business making it "rare." Government's only legitimate function is to protect the natural liberties of human beings. If an unborn child is neither a human being, nor an entity close enough to deserve protection, government has no legitimate interest in the subject.
"Good GOP," if you interpret the D&C passage about "renouncing war and proclaiming peace" as constituting an LDS doctrine of pacifism, you're contradicted by the fact that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young actually caused the LDS Church to wage war -- Smith, against Missouri in the 1830s, and Young against the United States in the 1850s (and also against various Indian tribes).
The meaning of those words must be understood in the context of the actions of the people who wrote and administered them.
If a fetus is part of a woman's body, then government has no business making it "rare." Government's only legitimate function is to protect the natural liberties of human beings. If an unborn child is neither a human being, nor an entity close enough to deserve protection, government has no legitimate interest in the subject.
"Good GOP," if you interpret the D&C passage about "renouncing war and proclaiming peace" as constituting an LDS doctrine of pacifism, you're contradicted by the fact that both Joseph Smith and Brigham Young actually caused the LDS Church to wage war -- Smith, against Missouri in the 1830s, and Young against the United States in the 1850s (and also against various Indian tribes).
The meaning of those words must be understood in the context of the actions of the people who wrote and administered them.
KVC | 10:35 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
DBG- How many times does it have to be said. It is okay to legislate morality to
protect humans, including the unborn. WE legislate against rape and murder. Have
we denied agency? No, but we allow punishment. If abortion is outlawed, people
still have the agency to get one illegally, but face the punishment. Please get
a clue before speaking.
Good GOP- President Hinckley gave tacit approval to the Iraq War in General Conference in 2003, and asked us to support the government and troops. If the First Presidency opposed it, why have we not received instruction to this, as we did regarding Gay Marriage. As a matter of fact, some of our Apostles have fought during wars. The Church fully supports the right to defend our liberties and the liberties of others. And Demos are not anti-war. Bill Clinton invaded Yugoslavia.
Stop worrying about- There is a difference between a natural death and human caused death. They are very different. If I have a heart attack and die that is natural. If someone does something to me purposefully to cause a heart attack, that is murder. I guess you would equate them as both the same and both legal.
Good GOP- President Hinckley gave tacit approval to the Iraq War in General Conference in 2003, and asked us to support the government and troops. If the First Presidency opposed it, why have we not received instruction to this, as we did regarding Gay Marriage. As a matter of fact, some of our Apostles have fought during wars. The Church fully supports the right to defend our liberties and the liberties of others. And Demos are not anti-war. Bill Clinton invaded Yugoslavia.
Stop worrying about- There is a difference between a natural death and human caused death. They are very different. If I have a heart attack and die that is natural. If someone does something to me purposefully to cause a heart attack, that is murder. I guess you would equate them as both the same and both legal.
To Catssss @ 10:27 am | 10:36 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Please illustrate your point? You're making broad generalizations that
don't wash, trying to justify the bad things republicans so and stand for.
BOTH parties have good and bad characteristics.
To: Cats | 9:48 a.m | 10:39 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
"I've always wondered how LDS Democrats manage to rationalize how they
vote. Now, I know. It's because they don't have a clue what the
positions of the Church are. And, they don't have a clue what the positions
of the Democrats are."
You do know that the late Pres. James E. Faust was a proud Democrat and was even the chair of the Utah Democratic Party at one time, don't you? I would dare say that he had a pretty good knowledge of both the positions of the LDS Church and the Democratic Party.
You do know that the late Pres. James E. Faust was a proud Democrat and was even the chair of the Utah Democratic Party at one time, don't you? I would dare say that he had a pretty good knowledge of both the positions of the LDS Church and the Democratic Party.
Mike Richards | 10:55 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Great thread with lots of drift.
The Democrats believe in and promote on-demand abortion at the whim of the mother. They believe that unborn babies are expendable.
The LDS believe that only agency and accountability supercede the sanctity of life. Even then, we believe we will be required to answer to God on how we used that agency with no automatic "pass" for abortion regardless how justifiable the reason.
The Democrats believe in and promote on-demand abortion at the whim of the mother. They believe that unborn babies are expendable.
The LDS believe that only agency and accountability supercede the sanctity of life. Even then, we believe we will be required to answer to God on how we used that agency with no automatic "pass" for abortion regardless how justifiable the reason.
Thomas | 11:01 a.m. Sept. 2, 2008
"To: Cats" -- The Democratic Party to which President Faust belonged
is not the Democratic Party of today, not by a long shot.
To Thomas @ 11:01 a.m | 12:04 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Are you insinuating that the Democratic Party has changed that dramatically
since August of last year (when Pres. Faust died)?
JTM | 12:04 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Okay so the president could select a supreme court justice, who could then
overturn Roe V Wade.. (even though they won't) So what authority do other
elected officials have over abortion? Because the way I see it, Utahns choose to
vote republican for EVERY OFFICE, even county commission, and they do so because
of abortion.. does this make sense?
great impressionists | 12:24 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
A quick perusal of some of the comments above shows exactly why the ideology of
anybody from the Utah culture will ever go anywhere in world politics.
All Utahns offer are terrific Rush Limbaugh impressions.
All Utahns offer are terrific Rush Limbaugh impressions.
DBG | 12:29 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
@KVC: There is one point you are missing in my argument is the fact that it is
currently UNKNOWN when spirit and body unite to create life as we know it. How
can you protect something that isn't even born? How is this any different
than, say, someone on life-support and you pull the plug? These are stages in
"life" that are tricky to deal with. But it's okay to pull the
plug but not okay on the begining? If life valued as you say it is, then
life-support should never be pulled. Because, life-support is synonymous to a
placenta which keeps the fetus living. Without it, the body dies.
rj | 12:39 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I have generally found that Mormons who are Democrats are generally Democrats
first and Mormons second. They will fight harder to proclaim their political
beliefs than they do their religious beliefs.
When Harry Reid was made majority leader he stated on a network news program that being a Democrat defines who he is. I would think most active Mormons would state that being LDS defines them more than political beliefs or political party. It was also Harry Reid who opposed the Church's support for the Marriage Amendment. And, truth is, the Church's Proclamation on the Family, runs counter to what most mainstream Democrats believe.
When Harry Reid was made majority leader he stated on a network news program that being a Democrat defines who he is. I would think most active Mormons would state that being LDS defines them more than political beliefs or political party. It was also Harry Reid who opposed the Church's support for the Marriage Amendment. And, truth is, the Church's Proclamation on the Family, runs counter to what most mainstream Democrats believe.
Thomas | 12:40 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
"To Thomas" -- If Elder Faust moved left, along with the rest of the
Democratic Party, in the years since he was last actively involved in Democratic
politics (during the Kennedy administration, if I read correctly), he kept it a
close secret, and I would be greatly surprised.
The old school Democrats like FDR, Truman, and Kennedy would take one look at the current crop and retch.
"Impressionists" -- Don't leave us Californians out. We offer terrific Limbaugh impressions (not that you'd know one when you saw one) too.
The old school Democrats like FDR, Truman, and Kennedy would take one look at the current crop and retch.
"Impressionists" -- Don't leave us Californians out. We offer terrific Limbaugh impressions (not that you'd know one when you saw one) too.
Seriously Offended | 12:47 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
I find myself seriously offended by some of the comments posted above. I am LDS,
and am leaving for Costa Rica in three weeks to serve an LDS mission. I have
been deemed worthy by my priesthood authorities and live my life according to
the doctrines of the Church. I'm also a democrat. However I do not support
abortion. And I'm not alone. Your opinion on abortion does not make you a
democrat or a Republican. In fact, I think God is also seriously offended at
some of the comments posted above as well. They are narrowminded, ignorant,
unloving, and full of hate. The message I recieved from "Cats" was
that if I'm a member of the LDS church and a democrat, then I'm not
following the doctrines of the church. Obviously this isn't true as I am
worthy enough of preaching the gospel in Costa Rica.
KVC | 12:51 p.m. Sept. 2, 2008
Secular alternative- Abortion is not just a religious view, unless you believe
that outlawing murder, rape and child porn are also just religious views that
should not be incorporated into our laws. Child labor laws also came extensively
from religious groups. Do we throw them out? Are all atheists pro-choice? If
not, then it is not a solely religious issue.
To Thomas @11:01- Anyone with half a brain knows that Faust did not vote Democratic in his later years. I know from interactions with those close to him that he never voted for Bill Clinton. He supported the Democratic ideas from the 50's and before. I guess you think he opposed the First Presidency pronouncement that we tell our Senators to vote to ban gay marriage, even though he was part of that First Presidency.
Great impressionists- All liberals seem to take their talking points from Moveon.org instead of thinking for themselves. I personally rarely ever listen to Limbaugh and think quite clearly for myself. You do not have to listen to Rush or other conservative commentators to understand Democrats and liberals are confused. You just need good old common sense, and it will set you straight.
To Thomas @11:01- Anyone with half a brain knows that Faust did not vote Democratic in his later years. I know from interactions with those close to him that he never voted for Bill Clinton. He supported the Democratic ideas from the 50's and before. I guess you think he opposed the First Presidency pronouncement that we tell our Senators to vote to ban gay marriage, even though he was part of that First Presidency.
Great impressionists- All liberals seem to take their talking points from Moveon.org instead of thinking for themselves. I personally rarely ever listen to Limbaugh and think quite clearly for myself. You do not have to listen to Rush or other conservative commentators to understand Democrats and liberals are confused. You just need good old common sense, and it will set you straight.
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The Church is true, its doctrines correct and teachings sound. This is why I choose to align myself with the Church on the issue of abortion and cannot be a good Mormon and a Republican.
Do we believe the Republican Party and evangelical leaders of the Republican Party or do we believe the Prophet and Apostles?
I choose to believe the prophet and apostles and not the far right evangelicals who seek to destroy the family, undermine the principles of the gospel and promote Satan's plan of force.
Instead, I choose God's plan of persuasion, teaching others correct principles and letting them govern themselves and choosing to trust that they will make the right decisions.
God is right and Republicans are wrong! I choose His plan and not theirs. As a devout Mormon I believe that Joseph Smith and President Monson are correct and McCain or Romney who changed his position on abortion to the Republican one are wrong.