Reader comments
'I stand on Fifth,' FLDS mom tells court in custody battle
47 comments | Read story
Matt | 1:10 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
What a bunch of junk. CPS needs to either focus on real child abuse or be
disbanded. This is a waste of taxpayer money!
CP | 3:52 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Well, if she's crying, "I plead the fifth" they must be hiding
alot of things that are going on within that religious sect. Cause if they had
nothing to hide she wouldn't be afraid to answer.
Chai Tea | 4:37 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
This is absolutely asinine. In no other home in America are children removed
because a sibling gets pregnant or married. This remains a witch hunt with
those closes to leadership being persecuted more vehemently (i.e., Teresa Jeffs
and Barbara Jessop).
I'm looking forward to reading Betty's testimony and learning what she has to say about the truthfulness of Carolyn's memories and her own treatment in the homes of the FLDS.
I'm looking forward to reading Betty's testimony and learning what she has to say about the truthfulness of Carolyn's memories and her own treatment in the homes of the FLDS.
Comments continue below
zezette | 5:32 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
"I stand on the Fifth"!!! Calling on her legal rights but
disregarding those against her beliefs. Must be working for her.
Bob G | 6:31 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
If anyone should be on trial is the Child Protective Services for wrongful
actions to start with from the beginning. Now the CPS with the blessing of the
courts are trying to coverup their initial illegal actions. Prosecution has the
power and money to be creative in their powers to manufacture and present
evidence to suit their needs. They don't need physical and tangible
evidence, any 'what if' scenario can be presented as facts. Truth does
not fit in to the justice system and judges courts. The laws of possibilities
and probalities prevail, just like in the scientific world. Justice is now a
science that has nothing to do with right, wrong, or the truth. The legal system
is now a science of statistics and accumulated data of posibilities,
probablities, and assumptions. The CPS fits right in with these lawyers and
courts with misinformantion and manufacturing of falsehoods. Child protective
sercives have become a cold, uncaring, group more interested in prosecting their
own form of child care than caring about family and child welfare.
Henry Wisewood | 7:03 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
It's the 'ollie north' defense. Still, in no other home in
America, with the exception of their brethern in Utah, Arizona and wherever else
they are squirreled away do siblings get pregnant, with approval, by their
uncle.
The FLDS needs to be harangued out of existence.
The FLDS needs to be harangued out of existence.
I guess I'm stupid | 7:23 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I thought that pleading the 5th meant you didn't want to incriminate
yourself? I must have gotten that wrong for the number of people commenting here
that the FLDS have done nothing wrong and eveyone else is wrong. I guess it all
boils down to why is she pleading the 5th Amendment when her church has taught
her everything outside the ranch is evil and wicked?
Rita | 7:33 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Where is Merrill? Seems he would appear in court and defend his wife and
children.
Southern Utah Resident | 7:37 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Looks like the FLDS are lighting up the comment board on this. Their defamatory
comments about CPS are nothing but a futile attempt to shift the focus away from
the real issue. OLD MEN RAPING YOUNG GIRLS!
This poor excuse for a mom failed to protect her daughter from a sexual predator.
This poor excuse for a mom failed to protect her daughter from a sexual predator.
Caught them again | 7:54 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Pleading the 5th, "...nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a
witness against himself..." The only problem with this defense is we now
know without a doubt that she is guilty. We have evidence. Pregnant Children is
against the law, you need to stop defending such behavior. This is not the
errant teenager that messes around and gets pregnant, this is an organized
policy of illegal marriage, rape and destruction of the lives of young women.
Why can't so many of you see that clearly for yourselves.
Jrz Wrld | 8:12 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The raid was overblown and poorly executed. But this woman won't even
answer how many children she's given birth to. She also allowed her
less-than-adolescent daughter to be married to a man in his 50s. Sorry -
that's just sketchy. I will gladly listen to arguments about religious
freedom as it relates to the FLDS as a whole, but not with regard to Barbara and
Merril Jessop. They crossed the line into depravity.
Justice for All | 8:15 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The problem with using the 5th (Pleading the 5th) is that once you answer any
question, the Judge can rule that you've given up the right and must answer
ALL questions.
She is caught in a difficult situation, if she "gives the appearance of being married" then she gives weight to bigamy charges. If she is deemed by the court to be a "common law wife" with a man that is already legally married, then there are other crimes that can be attached.
If instead, she is just "shacking up" with somebody then she is not guilty of those other crimes.
She is caught in a difficult situation, if she "gives the appearance of being married" then she gives weight to bigamy charges. If she is deemed by the court to be a "common law wife" with a man that is already legally married, then there are other crimes that can be attached.
If instead, she is just "shacking up" with somebody then she is not guilty of those other crimes.
tigerlily | 8:25 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
henry:: there is noway they can get rid of the flds church. it is an organized
and recognized religion therefore it was a right to exist.
we must remember here that non of the men except jeffs has been convicted of anything and they are innocent until proven guilty
we must remember here that non of the men except jeffs has been convicted of anything and they are innocent until proven guilty
Ken | 8:35 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Did I read this article right.
Did a 12 year old girl actually get married to Warren Jeffs? Is there actually a picture of them kissing? I don't even want to imagine what went on behind closed doors. And the majority of commenters to this article see nothing wrong with that?
What a sick world!
Did a 12 year old girl actually get married to Warren Jeffs? Is there actually a picture of them kissing? I don't even want to imagine what went on behind closed doors. And the majority of commenters to this article see nothing wrong with that?
What a sick world!
Anonymous | 8:41 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I'm not FLDS or even LDS. In fact, I come from a Protestant background, but
I have to say this fiasco has all the earmarks of the Salem witch hunts in the
1600�s. This ongoing stalking of a community and disruption
of family life, in my view, is far more detrimental to the children than a
mother who may spank a child to correct them. The government really needs to
honor the Constitution - leave the collection of this community alone and
concentrate on real, specific complaints of abuse that may be going on in some
of these families (they certainly are going on outside this community too!) but
only AFTER they have substantiated the source of the complaint. I thought that
is how it was suppose to work in this country anyway. I really do think there is
a lot of bullying going on by
�officials� with the appearance of
protecting the children than we would like to admit.
tigerlily | 8:46 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Jrz: what you don't get is that she has every right not to answer any
question they ask.
Rob | 8:47 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
This is not by their choice that these children are forced into marriage to
older men. Disgusting! Even one time of this happening is one time too many.
How gross to have a beautiful 12 year old girl kissing that old man and then
marrying a 50 year old. These are pedophiles hiding under a religion. Parents
should protect their children. I think this needs to play all the way out to
see what is really happening. I am more than happy to tell how many children I
have and what is going on in our lives.
confused | 8:57 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
well, I admit I'm confused. Some of you are saying the parents
shouldn't lose their children, but how are they supposed to take care of
the children if the parents are in prison?
I mean, you all must agree that this mother and father belong in prison, don't you? Is there anyone here that thinks they SHOULDN'T go to prison for prostituting their 12 yr old daughter out to a 50 yr old man?
So those of you saying they shouldn't lose their children - how are they supposed to take care of their children if they are in prison?
I'm confused. Pls explain.
I mean, you all must agree that this mother and father belong in prison, don't you? Is there anyone here that thinks they SHOULDN'T go to prison for prostituting their 12 yr old daughter out to a 50 yr old man?
So those of you saying they shouldn't lose their children - how are they supposed to take care of their children if they are in prison?
I'm confused. Pls explain.
zxcvbnm | 9:10 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
More of the ole takes the fifth must be guilty argument.
The woman exercises her rights with the advice of her lawyer therefore she is guilty........
Keep up the accusations of the bookpeddlers who were never at the ranch, making accusations that can not be verified.
What a case....non case......a non existant person accuses people of abusing the non existant person and her non existant child. A person who has never been in Texas testifies to nonexistant events that occurred twenty years ago.
Then there is the threat to children by a non-existant Merrill and his jailed buddy.
Allow discovery and let these people defend themselves.........but then you open the freedom of religion defense.
Just an added question..........who are Barberas children with while she is on the stand......someone needs to make sure Merril isn't babysitting.
tigerlily | 9:13 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
southern utah resident::: cps is everything that the flds has said they are
to Ken | 9:15 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
those pictures were in the newspaper awhile ago. We've already debated
those pictures. Now the question is why she is pleading the fifth. Does she
really have something to hide?
Joey | 9:53 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Those pictures allegedly showing 12 year olds kissing old men were thrown out of
the body of evidence in this hearing. Apparently there was something wrong with
their validity/authenticity.
zxcvbnm | 10:01 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Looks like ole Willie will put Carolyns daughter on the stand.
Now we have a witness to events in Texas as well as Carolyns life pre-booksales.
Carolyn is now planning her "escape" from texas.
I hear she is on the phone to Swinton to make a call to her brother......he is reving up the unregistered car as we speak. Watch out for Doran...I hear he has a new ticket book and needs to raise funds to pay for the raid.
Legally | 10:14 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I may be mistaken but what I remember from Criminal Procedure class is that you
can take the 5th amendment only on questions which would tend to incriminate
yourself. It is not a blanket protection against testifying in court and
Barbara Jessop could be held in contempt for not answering
Pictures | 10:48 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Just because pictures were thrown out does not mean they are not authentic. It
just means that it is possible that they were found unlawfully or somewhat. Like
on the raid on the ranch. However, they could still be authentic.
zxcvbnm | 10:53 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Hey Joey..authenticating the pictures may be a problem but heck.........they are certainly worth more than the proverbial thousand words.
I am not sure if kissing is illegal in Texas but extrapolating a kiss of that nature to include sex isn't unreasonable.
Did the girl get pregnant..I think she did........but Jeffs is in jail and unless someone allows conjugal visits I think the odds of them kissing again in this lifetime are nonexistant.
RWW | 10:55 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Who, in addition to the FLDS Patriarchal Pedophiles should be on trial?
The States of Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Colorado and Texas to list just a few. All of them, guilty of 'looking the other way' for years. All guilty of aiding and abetting child abuse, molestation and subjugation. Too bad coercion and immoral indoctrination aren't illegal.
As a former resident of both UT and ID, I am personally aware of polygamous family's living and working in the open, not compounds. Family's that are well known by the authorities as well as other members of the public. Yet, as long as they don't make waves, it is a 'don't ask, don't tell' mentality.
How many expos�''s have we seen on TV about the activities of individual groups, yet only a few of the worse offenders have been prosecuted in token gestures by state attorney's. As soon as the public's repugnant feeding frenzy is sated, it's back to business as usual. Utah prosecutors have admitted they don't prosecute polygamy unless it is absolutely necessary, or around election time.
The States of Utah, Idaho, Arizona, Colorado and Texas to list just a few. All of them, guilty of 'looking the other way' for years. All guilty of aiding and abetting child abuse, molestation and subjugation. Too bad coercion and immoral indoctrination aren't illegal.
As a former resident of both UT and ID, I am personally aware of polygamous family's living and working in the open, not compounds. Family's that are well known by the authorities as well as other members of the public. Yet, as long as they don't make waves, it is a 'don't ask, don't tell' mentality.
How many expos�''s have we seen on TV about the activities of individual groups, yet only a few of the worse offenders have been prosecuted in token gestures by state attorney's. As soon as the public's repugnant feeding frenzy is sated, it's back to business as usual. Utah prosecutors have admitted they don't prosecute polygamy unless it is absolutely necessary, or around election time.
Correct, Legally (10:14 a.m.) | 11:27 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I wonder what type of prosecution Barbara Jessop fears she will face. I wonder
how much involvement SHE had in the abuse of her children (and marrying off a
12-year-old to a dirty old man constitutes abuse in my book). Her job as a
mother included preventing that from happening. It's sad that she failed
so badly in her duty. I wonder what she's trying to hide, and who
she's trying to protect (clearly not her children). With her taking the
Fifth, it sounds like her children would be much better off if removed from her
alleged care.
Sokol | 12:20 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Raping young girls...how about the Nazi CPS violating
the rights of parents, children and families. We
see this in the courts all the time. Power hungry,
politically correct agencies with a multitude
of players looking to make a buck off the misery
of families and children.
the rights of parents, children and families. We
see this in the courts all the time. Power hungry,
politically correct agencies with a multitude
of players looking to make a buck off the misery
of families and children.
Dot | 12:41 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Barbara has been programed. She will say exactly what Merrill has told her to
say, including pleading the 5th. That will also be the case with Betty.
Whatever "FATHER" says is gospel.(father being Merrill)
These women are robots. If they don't follow they are punished.
Whatever "FATHER" says is gospel.(father being Merrill)
These women are robots. If they don't follow they are punished.
Re: Sokol | 12:43 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
"Raping young girls...how about the Nazi CPS violating the rights of
parents, children and families."
So in your opinion, power hungry CPS shouldn't be allowed to violate the rights of parents to sexually abuse and rape their children?
A few weeks of protective custody for many is worse, in your opinion, than a lifetime of sexual slavery for a few.
So in your opinion, power hungry CPS shouldn't be allowed to violate the rights of parents to sexually abuse and rape their children?
A few weeks of protective custody for many is worse, in your opinion, than a lifetime of sexual slavery for a few.
tigerlily | 12:55 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
i've read the book and the girls mother joined this group knowing what they
were like. her choice yes, forced to join no. the girl that the book is about
left the religion and is married to a nonflds man
Politically correctness | 1:58 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
If protecting underage girls from FLDS rapists is politically correct I am all
for political correctness.
Evidently some Utahns (including some Latter-day Saints) are so right-wing and anti-government in their thinking, they will justify child-rape in the interest of curtailing government authority. This is absolutely sick.
If our society is unwilling to protect its most defenseless--yes, including the unborn-- its
destruction will come erelong. You anti-government pro-lifers should also be sure stick up for the rights of the born.
Evidently some Utahns (including some Latter-day Saints) are so right-wing and anti-government in their thinking, they will justify child-rape in the interest of curtailing government authority. This is absolutely sick.
If our society is unwilling to protect its most defenseless--yes, including the unborn-- its
destruction will come erelong. You anti-government pro-lifers should also be sure stick up for the rights of the born.
John Pack Lambert | 2:32 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
To CP,
I hope you are never allowed to sit on a jury. Pleading the Fifth can not be used against someone.
First people said that they just wanted the children out of YFZ. Now that they are elsewhere, you are demanding the children be taken from their parents. Are you people every satisfied?
I hope you are never allowed to sit on a jury. Pleading the Fifth can not be used against someone.
First people said that they just wanted the children out of YFZ. Now that they are elsewhere, you are demanding the children be taken from their parents. Are you people every satisfied?
John Pack Lambert | 2:39 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
To Rita,
A husband at large can do more for a family that one in jail.
Merrill Jessop probably belongs in jail for his crimes. However, having your husband go and testify and then get sent off to the slammer does you no good. Merrill showing his face and getting held in jail awaiting charges is the last thing Barbara wants.
A husband at large can do more for a family that one in jail.
Merrill Jessop probably belongs in jail for his crimes. However, having your husband go and testify and then get sent off to the slammer does you no good. Merrill showing his face and getting held in jail awaiting charges is the last thing Barbara wants.
John Pack Lambert | 2:41 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
To the 7:54 commentator,
I do not agree with the FLDS. However I do have to say their system of husbands who stay with their multiple wives is much better than what goes on among many other people in the United States.
Elsewhere you have 21-year-old plus men who lure 14 to 16 year olds into their confidence, inpregnate them, and then move on to elsewhere while the young mother has to raise the children all on her own.
Is it better for a 14-year-old to have a 22-year-old boyfriend who says he will stay with her but then deserts or a 30-year-old husband, who gives as much support to her as to his other two wives?
I do not agree with the FLDS. However I do have to say their system of husbands who stay with their multiple wives is much better than what goes on among many other people in the United States.
Elsewhere you have 21-year-old plus men who lure 14 to 16 year olds into their confidence, inpregnate them, and then move on to elsewhere while the young mother has to raise the children all on her own.
Is it better for a 14-year-old to have a 22-year-old boyfriend who says he will stay with her but then deserts or a 30-year-old husband, who gives as much support to her as to his other two wives?
John Pack Lambert | 2:48 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
To Rob,
What evidence do you have that Ms. Jessop's daughter did not want to marry Warren Jeffs?
Considering the culture she was raised in, she was probably thrilled to no end to become Warren Jeffs wife.
Legally, even if the young Ms. Jessop had asked Warren Jeffs to marry her you could still charge him with various crimes in connection with the issue. It might be hard to get a jury to convict if it could be shown that the 12-year-old had initiated the marriage.
However, my point is that there is no evidence in this case that the young Ms. Jessop had any misgivings about the marriage. At the same time legally, although not neccesarilly in the balance of getting a conviction, such facts have no relevance. Since Ms. Jessop is under the age of consent, how she feels about the whole matter is not in any way relevant to the actions of Jeffs being a crime.
What evidence do you have that Ms. Jessop's daughter did not want to marry Warren Jeffs?
Considering the culture she was raised in, she was probably thrilled to no end to become Warren Jeffs wife.
Legally, even if the young Ms. Jessop had asked Warren Jeffs to marry her you could still charge him with various crimes in connection with the issue. It might be hard to get a jury to convict if it could be shown that the 12-year-old had initiated the marriage.
However, my point is that there is no evidence in this case that the young Ms. Jessop had any misgivings about the marriage. At the same time legally, although not neccesarilly in the balance of getting a conviction, such facts have no relevance. Since Ms. Jessop is under the age of consent, how she feels about the whole matter is not in any way relevant to the actions of Jeffs being a crime.
tigerlily | 4:13 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
to legally: why did ollie north and the cop in the oj case get away with
pleading the 5th??
re tigerlily 4:13pm | 4:29 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
because those were criminal trials and this is a civil proceeding.
Sokol | 4:44 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Sorry, but there have been no criminal convictions of
any of these people...In your opinion false accussations, lies, innuendos are the same as
factual evidence, that is good enough to deprive parents and children their constitutional right
for due process.
I bet your 16 year old grandmother who married
her 18 year old child hood sweetheart should have
been placed in prison too, or worse than prison
foster care.
any of these people...In your opinion false accussations, lies, innuendos are the same as
factual evidence, that is good enough to deprive parents and children their constitutional right
for due process.
I bet your 16 year old grandmother who married
her 18 year old child hood sweetheart should have
been placed in prison too, or worse than prison
foster care.
Sokol | 4:47 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
What are you protecting underage girls from if you
have no proof or evidence, no conviction, no clear
and convincing evidence, no finding of guilt by
any jury? All you have is an abusive agency destroying family rights, parental rights and in
a majority of instances ripping children away from
their fathers...by the way I am not FLDS OR LDS, i
am for fairness and justice.
have no proof or evidence, no conviction, no clear
and convincing evidence, no finding of guilt by
any jury? All you have is an abusive agency destroying family rights, parental rights and in
a majority of instances ripping children away from
their fathers...by the way I am not FLDS OR LDS, i
am for fairness and justice.
realitycheck | 5:52 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Sokol,
you may not be FLDS but you certainly are NOT for fairness and justice.
There is a tiny 12 yr old girl that was told by her parents that she is to marry a 50 yr old man - and that she should be PROUD to do so.
That is perversion to the nth degree. The parents should both be jailed for child endangerment.
So - you don't want the parents to lose the children and you think for the children to go to foster care is unfair. Tell us - how are the parents supposed to raise (used loosely) their children if they are in jail?
Or do you believe that telling their impressionable little daughter that she is to marry at 12 is ok to do?
It's black and white - no grey area. Simple. Either what they did was WAY wrong and they should go to jail, or what they did was ok and they should keep their childen,
Which is it?
you may not be FLDS but you certainly are NOT for fairness and justice.
There is a tiny 12 yr old girl that was told by her parents that she is to marry a 50 yr old man - and that she should be PROUD to do so.
That is perversion to the nth degree. The parents should both be jailed for child endangerment.
So - you don't want the parents to lose the children and you think for the children to go to foster care is unfair. Tell us - how are the parents supposed to raise (used loosely) their children if they are in jail?
Or do you believe that telling their impressionable little daughter that she is to marry at 12 is ok to do?
It's black and white - no grey area. Simple. Either what they did was WAY wrong and they should go to jail, or what they did was ok and they should keep their childen,
Which is it?
Sheryle | 6:03 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I am appalled by what most of the commenter's are saying-leave the
"family" alone? The FLDS is an organized group of child molesters!
Not only that, but the men who have more than one wife encourage their other
"wives" to apply for (and they DO receive) government benefits, ie.
WELFARE, MEDICADE and any other benefit they can rape (yes I said RAPE, there
seems to be a pattern here) from the states. If you are not appalled by child
brides, then set back and calculate how many of your TAX dollars are supporting
the hundred or so children that each of these men have! The FLDS has money
(look at the "compound" YFZ folks!) and they are stealing thousands
more each month from YOU! That's why "outsiders" are evil!
They have to be secretive, otherwise their free ride would end! And what of the
hundreds of young boys taken for a ride and expelled from the community? The
OLD men don't want the competition that the young men may give them as they
seek their child brides. Religion may be protected, but child molesters come
from all faiths and the FLDS is NOT excluded.
tigerlily | 10:51 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
no one has been convicted of anything. they shouldn't even be taking kids
away unless someone is convicted
Claire | 10:51 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I have asked on other comment boards with regards to the FLDS...how do you
account for the statistics that there are more men born into this world than
women. How do you support your lifestyle with an excess of men? Do you think
this might be the reason why the men in your community continue to marry, if you
can call it that, the young girls?
There is NOT an abundance of women! Thus making your lifestyle ridiculous, as you would have to rid yourself of the excess men in your community. Please think and someone give a plausible answer please.
There is NOT an abundance of women! Thus making your lifestyle ridiculous, as you would have to rid yourself of the excess men in your community. Please think and someone give a plausible answer please.
tigerlily | 10:54 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Sheryle. each of these men do not have 100 children. the world is evil and they
are right to teach their children that. their religion is protected under the
constitution
Rae | 2:41 p.m. Jan. 15, 2009
To tigerlily:
Their religion is protected under the Constitution, its immoral and illegal practices or not. Human sacrifice is a component of some aspects of Santeria practiced elsewhere in the world; Santeria ITSELF is protected under the Constitution, human sacrifice is not.
Likewise, FLDS may be protected under the Constitution but rape and incest are not. Nor is abuse in any way shape or form, nor is polygamy. Unless you want to argue for suppressing the needs of woman in order to allow the men to carry on with their shameless pleasure-seeking self-fulfilling ways, I really don't see your argument. Warren Jeffs has already been shown to be a hypocrite. Maybe you should re-evaluate your argument, unless you can't hear me all the way from the 50's.
Their religion is protected under the Constitution, its immoral and illegal practices or not. Human sacrifice is a component of some aspects of Santeria practiced elsewhere in the world; Santeria ITSELF is protected under the Constitution, human sacrifice is not.
Likewise, FLDS may be protected under the Constitution but rape and incest are not. Nor is abuse in any way shape or form, nor is polygamy. Unless you want to argue for suppressing the needs of woman in order to allow the men to carry on with their shameless pleasure-seeking self-fulfilling ways, I really don't see your argument. Warren Jeffs has already been shown to be a hypocrite. Maybe you should re-evaluate your argument, unless you can't hear me all the way from the 50's.
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