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GOP ready to tackle state referendum law
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GOP power grab | 5:52 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
When a political party becomes so powerful that they can pass laws in staggering
opposition to the will of their constituents and diminish their
constituents' ability to address this abuse of power, the constituents need
to reconsider who they are voting for.
Take the time to let your elected representatives know that you oppose this attempt by the GOP to diminish the sovereignty of Utah's citizens, and let them know that you'll remember their votes on this issue when they come up for reelection.
Take the time to let your elected representatives know that you oppose this attempt by the GOP to diminish the sovereignty of Utah's citizens, and let them know that you'll remember their votes on this issue when they come up for reelection.
Bob G | 6:10 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The people have the constitutional right to act and confront their
representatives and our government. By referendum or initiative it has put up
roadblocks to the voice of the people. If people are being forced with these
roadblocks then lobbyist should face the same roadblocks and must get public
signatures to present legislative change. Lobbyist do not represent the people
yet they are not required to present referendum or petitions. The peoples voice
and choices should be an easy process and government actions and representation
difficult. Government was never meant to be easy nor made up of professional
career individuals. Career government leaders have undermined the laws and
constitutional intentions. People elect representatives to represent the people,
not business or CEO's or lobbyist. The people have been legislated out of
the power to make our representatives accountable and responsible for their
actions and middeeds. The people can no longer request or demand the impeachment
of misrepresentation of corrupt elected officials. Only representatives can
impeach each other now, this is not how our government was intended to perform.
The referendum laws are another means of preventing the people from having their
voice heard with their demands of their elcected representatives.
Comments continue below
Utah County Republican | 6:22 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Bramble considers a single referendum a constant. Does he not know the
definition of the word constant? If it is a CONSTANT that the people are going
against what you are legislating, it isn't the people who are out of
touch--it is the politician. It is time for Bramble to get out of politics as
he is out of touch with Utah values.
I do agree with Bramble, it must be hard when the public wises up to his shenanigans and undoes his money schemes. Hopefully they undo his 'representing' the people and get in someone who actually represents.
I do agree with Bramble, it must be hard when the public wises up to his shenanigans and undoes his money schemes. Hopefully they undo his 'representing' the people and get in someone who actually represents.
Democracy? | 6:34 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I'm beginning to wonder if our Republican legislature believes that power
resides with the people. It is almost like they are trying to create a
legislative dictatorship. I wonder what kind of laws they will pass to further
squelch political opposition and if they are making plays right out of
Putin's handbook.
Fair Vote | 7:13 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Referendum and initiative are important checks to a rigged two-party system.
FairVote: The Center for Voting and Democracy offers more competitive and representative electoral alternatives than the one used by the Ds and Rs to cheat us.
FairVote: The Center for Voting and Democracy offers more competitive and representative electoral alternatives than the one used by the Ds and Rs to cheat us.
irony | 7:17 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
He actually says that they are elected to make decisions for the people, not to
represent them? Amazing.
lost in DC | 7:21 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I agree that the repub leadership is getting pretty heavy handed and needs to
back off.
mistersmee | 7:28 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
We trust those who are elected to do what's right for Utah, not what's
right for them. All to often once elected they forget to do what's right.
We need to have a change in Utah. Make it less complex to let the people make
things right if needed. With this threat of the people, then the law makers will
do what's right for Utah. We need a strong threat of the people.
Intoxicated by power | 7:45 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Let me see! As a die-hard republican, Utah state government has been dominated
by republicans in the last 25 years, and Utahns pays more taxes than most
states? Now, the Legislators are way too smart to know what we want despite
what the referendum showed? Oh! They want to take the refendum out? Why did
we go to Iraq for? Maybe it is time we camped out outside the state capitol to
prevent Bramble and Company from preventing democratic process from the stupid
citizens of the states.
Does it mean I trust the Democrats? Not only NO, but heck NO. They have their agenda in opposing this. Has nothing to do with you and me, just them. Democrats approaches have always been big government and more taxes. Heck, the republicans are doing that now and it stinks.
Does it mean I trust the Democrats? Not only NO, but heck NO. They have their agenda in opposing this. Has nothing to do with you and me, just them. Democrats approaches have always been big government and more taxes. Heck, the republicans are doing that now and it stinks.
Embarrassed Republican | 7:47 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I remember when Karen Shepherd made the mistake of telling the press that she
knew more than the people she represented. That was the end of her term in
office. Now, we have powerful republican leaders telling us citizens we have no
business messing with government. Is this for real? I agree with the GOP
powergrab above: the republican party is too powerful in utah - and arrogant -
and they don't even care. It is so sad. I think I will have to vote for a
democrat this year - which will probably make my dad roll over in his grave. The
republican party needs to learn that good government is the business of the
people - and when they don't want to hear the voice of the people, then
they cease to be good governors, and become tyrants.
Stop Complaining, Take Action | 7:50 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Friends, Romans, Republicans, lend me your ear. I tend to vote Republican on a
national level and I am quickly being converted to a Democrat on the state
level. Can you believe the arrogance of Bramble, Valentine, et. al.? Two
things have to happen: 1. Utah County voters have to have the courage to vote
against Bramble and the other power grabbers (I promise you that you will not
tear a hole in the universe if you vote against a Republican). 2. Voters
statewide should take a serious look at Springmeyer for governor. He will veto
any crazy piece of legislation that crosses the governor's desk. His veto
may be overridden, but he will make them work for their bad laws. Huntsman
doesn't have the backbone to stand up to the lunatic right. Stop
complaining, take action.
uncannygunman | 7:53 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep deciding what's for dinner."
My problem is that I am a sheep in a state full of wolves, so whether the
wolves vote directly or through representatives, it is usually not in my best
interests.
I don't know what to think about the initiative process. In the vouchers case, it really provided a protection mechanism to bring the legislature in line with public opinion. But I do think the system is capable of being abused and could result in some ghastly laws. Remember that the vile Amendment 3 was ratified by popular vote just a few short years ago.
I don't know what to think about the initiative process. In the vouchers case, it really provided a protection mechanism to bring the legislature in line with public opinion. But I do think the system is capable of being abused and could result in some ghastly laws. Remember that the vile Amendment 3 was ratified by popular vote just a few short years ago.
Comical | 7:56 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
It's funny that Bramble says that the Republicans listen to their
constituents and then vote for what they want, yet the legislature passed the
school voucher law, which his constituents then voted down by a 2-to-1 margin.
Comical. Maybe those legislators need to clean the wax out of their ears and
really listen to those who elected them! The U.S. is a republic not a
dictatorship.
Instereo | 8:00 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The Republican gerrymandering, lack of ethical reform, and their relationship
with lobbyists is bad enough. Now they want to make the referendum process
harder because they got spanked by the people with their voucher legislation
because representing the people was not enough.
They know the will of the people but seem to think that most will be asleep and they can do as they want even if it goes against the constitution. It's amazing to me how someone like Bramble can be so hypocritical and arogant.
It's time to bring some balance back to Utah Politics.
They know the will of the people but seem to think that most will be asleep and they can do as they want even if it goes against the constitution. It's amazing to me how someone like Bramble can be so hypocritical and arogant.
It's time to bring some balance back to Utah Politics.
MadMax | 8:04 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
It appears by the comments from our legislative leaders that they are really out
of touch with their roles and the true will of the people. We, the people, are
not subject to their will, rather they are subject to our will. It is difficult
to fathom that Utah voters are so far into the Republican Party they can not see
those Republican politicians usurping their freedoms and running roughshod over
representative government. Utah, please throw out these self-centered, out of
touch with the public, ignorant of their responsibilities as representatives of
the people and wrong-headed legislators. While every state has some of these
folks, we have too many of them: Bramble, Valentine, Curtis, Buttars, and many
others. The people must guard against those who would limit their voices in
self-government.
stevo | 8:12 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Hey Curt, Sorry about questioning your judgement! Name me the last five times
the initiative process was used? The process is the last refuge from people like
you and valentine!
The Rock | 8:17 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I am a very conservative Republican.
I live in the People's Republic of Washington. We have a Democrat psudo-govenor (elected after two recounts and 9 separate discoveries of "uncounted ballots") and a Democrat Senate and House.
On issue after issue the polls show that the state is far more conservative than the Democrat dictators they keep electing.
Funny, the Democrat dictators here in Washington keep complaining about our initiative process. They sound just like the Republicans sound in this article.
In Washington the legislature can declair any bill to be an emergency. Doing this denies the people the right of referendum (easy to get). We can pass an initiative but we have to get far more signatures and it cannot simply invalidate a law like the referendum can do.
Elected representatives who don't like initiatives really want to be dictators. I know. I live in a liberal dictatorship.
I live in the People's Republic of Washington. We have a Democrat psudo-govenor (elected after two recounts and 9 separate discoveries of "uncounted ballots") and a Democrat Senate and House.
On issue after issue the polls show that the state is far more conservative than the Democrat dictators they keep electing.
Funny, the Democrat dictators here in Washington keep complaining about our initiative process. They sound just like the Republicans sound in this article.
In Washington the legislature can declair any bill to be an emergency. Doing this denies the people the right of referendum (easy to get). We can pass an initiative but we have to get far more signatures and it cannot simply invalidate a law like the referendum can do.
Elected representatives who don't like initiatives really want to be dictators. I know. I live in a liberal dictatorship.
I'm not surprised | 8:31 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The referendum process is one of the last lines of defense against an
over-reading government. The current Utah State legislature acts as an
over-reaching government. Of course they don't want to have their power
taken away from them.
We need a less-restrictive referendum process, not a stricter one.
We need a less-restrictive referendum process, not a stricter one.
Suredopreciateya | 8:39 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The unfortunate truth is that no one understands the word democracy anymore. Its
former negative connotation has morphed into a denotation of liberty, or freedom
. . . or something like that. Those who want to believe our country is a
constitutional republic are privy (or need to become privy) to the reality that
we are actually no longer constitutional, but rather democratic. So, our
democratic republic will rule. Because of this, the majority of people
can't even understand Curt Bramble's argument; it just makes no sense
whatsoever. A bit of poetic justice for the few remaining Republicans who
understand principled government. I'd say the Republicans are likely to get
their just rewards. It is a sad and unfortunate truth. But the real irony is
that the Democrats, whose name bears the form of government for which they so
desperately fight, will actually eventually get what they want, and that's
what it will take to realize that what they want is the exact opposite of
what's best for them. And so goes the march toward tyranny and oppression,
all by our own choice.
Lost in Utah | 9:07 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
There is some hope for finding ones way in Utah. Just look. Not one comment in
favor of this stupid proposal by the republicans. Happy days are here again.
arationalguy | 9:38 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Our national constitution only allows for referendum by electing different
representatives to go back and change the law, and states would be wise to
emulate this. This is what keeps people actively engaged in who they elect.
Circumvent it with direct voting on laws and you distracting from the real issue
-- knowing who you elect -- and in the mob rule you create, minorities end up
with an even weaker voice as well.
Madison would be appalled. Know your constitution, folks.
Madison would be appalled. Know your constitution, folks.
Cats | 9:44 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Whenever I see an initiative on the ballot, I'm always very suspicious of
it. The reason it's on the ballot is because the supporters are trying to
bypass the Legislature. What I want to know is WHY?
The Legislature has the ability to hold hearings, call expert witnesses, do tons of research and study each issue in depth. Individual citizens don't have the time or resources. Generally, the Legislature will make wise decisions that are in the interest of the citizens. However, these decisions might be against the interest of particular groups.
The voucher vote is a perfect example. School voucher legislation, as written, was very much in the interest of children, families and taxpayers. However, it wasn't in the interest of the EDUCATION MONOPOLY otherwise known as the UEA. The UEA managed to get it on the ballot, produced millions of dollars in misleading, scare-tactic TV ads and brought in union members from outside Utah to defeat vouchers. Unfortunately, they succeeded in defeating what would have been a wonderful opportunity to improve education in Utah.
I applaud the attempts of the Legislature to put a stop to this selfish manipulation of the democratic process. I hope they succeed.
The Legislature has the ability to hold hearings, call expert witnesses, do tons of research and study each issue in depth. Individual citizens don't have the time or resources. Generally, the Legislature will make wise decisions that are in the interest of the citizens. However, these decisions might be against the interest of particular groups.
The voucher vote is a perfect example. School voucher legislation, as written, was very much in the interest of children, families and taxpayers. However, it wasn't in the interest of the EDUCATION MONOPOLY otherwise known as the UEA. The UEA managed to get it on the ballot, produced millions of dollars in misleading, scare-tactic TV ads and brought in union members from outside Utah to defeat vouchers. Unfortunately, they succeeded in defeating what would have been a wonderful opportunity to improve education in Utah.
I applaud the attempts of the Legislature to put a stop to this selfish manipulation of the democratic process. I hope they succeed.
Cats | 9:56 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
This new referendum law won't keep initiatives off the ballot. It will
just make it harder for special interest groups to manipulate and abuse the
process.
The truth about the vote | 9:56 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I have to question whether or not the voucher referendum would have passed had
it been done in a presidential election year. Special interest like the UEA has
real power when the voter turnout is low. I don�t think
last year�s vote was a real test of public sentiment in the
issue of vouchers. I think it was a real test of political apathy in local
elections.
I am not a fan of vouchers nor would my children benefit either directly or in directly from voucher. But I am politically involved enough to know that if the voucher referendum were held during the presidential primary in February it would have failed miserably. A different special interest would have killed it.
If the vote was on the November ballot with Mitt Romney on the ticket, watch the UEA get crushed by the real popular vote here in Utah. Conservative Republicans who care about their children�s education and not UEA union bosses scaring teachers to the polls.
I am not a fan of vouchers nor would my children benefit either directly or in directly from voucher. But I am politically involved enough to know that if the voucher referendum were held during the presidential primary in February it would have failed miserably. A different special interest would have killed it.
If the vote was on the November ballot with Mitt Romney on the ticket, watch the UEA get crushed by the real popular vote here in Utah. Conservative Republicans who care about their children�s education and not UEA union bosses scaring teachers to the polls.
Cats | 10:29 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
P.S. I am not in any way defending Curt Bramble. He's an arrogant jerk.
The guy is so full of himself. You can ask him a question that requires a
one-sentence answer and get a 45-minute lecture instead.
So, don't think I'm in any way defending Curt Bramble. And, I do believe that an initiative process should still exist. I just don't think the UEA and other self-interested groups should be able to manipulate and abuse the process they way they have in the past.
So, don't think I'm in any way defending Curt Bramble. And, I do believe that an initiative process should still exist. I just don't think the UEA and other self-interested groups should be able to manipulate and abuse the process they way they have in the past.
sodiedog | 10:31 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
And Mitt wouldn't be considered a special interest candidate, right?
To: Cats | 10:33 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
"The legislature has the ability to hold hearings, call expert witnesses,
do tons of research and study each issue in depth"
Looking back on your post now, I bet you wish you hadn't put that in. Why? The legislature might have the ABILITY to do those things but they DON'T! They waste their time at the beginning of each session on trivial matters and then, the last few days of the session, start to panic and pass bills into law that are NOT adequately researched and studied.
Your so-called "selfish manipulation" applies directly to the pet agendas of whatever political faction is currently in power (in this case the far-right Republicans). The referendum process is greatly needed to challenge their selfish manipulation of political power. If the voucher vote had even been close I might give some creedence to your anti-UEA rant. However, the voters were not fooled by the millions of dollars spent by PCE and Overstock or the misleading "oreo cookie" TV ads. 61% of Utah voters cannot be fooled!
Looking back on your post now, I bet you wish you hadn't put that in. Why? The legislature might have the ABILITY to do those things but they DON'T! They waste their time at the beginning of each session on trivial matters and then, the last few days of the session, start to panic and pass bills into law that are NOT adequately researched and studied.
Your so-called "selfish manipulation" applies directly to the pet agendas of whatever political faction is currently in power (in this case the far-right Republicans). The referendum process is greatly needed to challenge their selfish manipulation of political power. If the voucher vote had even been close I might give some creedence to your anti-UEA rant. However, the voters were not fooled by the millions of dollars spent by PCE and Overstock or the misleading "oreo cookie" TV ads. 61% of Utah voters cannot be fooled!
Dan | 10:44 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
"The wisdom of a representative democracy is that there is some insulation
between that populace, and that doesn't mean the voice of the people
isn't important. That doesn't mean we don't listen to our
constituents."
This guy is completely out of touch. 69 percent went out to vote against the measure. That's no small feat. You can't just keep doing the bidding of special interests and ideologues.
This guy is completely out of touch. 69 percent went out to vote against the measure. That's no small feat. You can't just keep doing the bidding of special interests and ideologues.
whatever, arationalguy | 10:45 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The Utah Constitution guarantees that the people (you know, the citizens!) are
equal in power to the other branches of government. The referendum process in
Utah (which, BTW, is among the most difficult in the nation) gives the people a
voice when their "representatives" aren't actually representing
them.
As for the UEA scaring teachers to the polls, that's a complete absurdity. Every county voted vouchers down with a high turnout. Take the tiny number of teachers out as compared to the overall population and vouchers still suffer a landslide defeat.
What hypocrites! You don't see the pro-voucher whiners on this forum complaining about the marriage protection ballot initiative in California. The far-right, ethically-challenged "conservatives" here will either attack or defend the democratic process as long as it suits their objectives.
Where is their honor?
As for the UEA scaring teachers to the polls, that's a complete absurdity. Every county voted vouchers down with a high turnout. Take the tiny number of teachers out as compared to the overall population and vouchers still suffer a landslide defeat.
What hypocrites! You don't see the pro-voucher whiners on this forum complaining about the marriage protection ballot initiative in California. The far-right, ethically-challenged "conservatives" here will either attack or defend the democratic process as long as it suits their objectives.
Where is their honor?
A miracle??? Give me a break | 10:48 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
No honest political activist was surprised that the UEA and PTA were able to get
enough signatures to force vouchers to a public vote. Let's do the math:
There are about 20,000 UEA members, 120,000 PTA members, and another 20,000
public school employees who aren't in the UEA.... That's 160,000
people, and all they needed was 90,000 signatures.
Please. More people were upset about the soccer stadium, but how many signatures did they get? Maybe 15,000? The public employee unions are the most powerful political organizations. The only thing competing with them are the fact that most people in Utah favor conservative principles.
Please. More people were upset about the soccer stadium, but how many signatures did they get? Maybe 15,000? The public employee unions are the most powerful political organizations. The only thing competing with them are the fact that most people in Utah favor conservative principles.
Demopublican | 10:49 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
GET REAL REPUBLICAN PARTY!
The law that allows for a referendum vote to challenge a legislative action is a check-and-balance factor that only the most enlightened and law abiding democracies allow...
The Republican party has already proven during the Bush/Republican congress years that it's not capable of being a one party system without over-reaching into Facist territory, and the one party Republican party controlled State of Utah appears to now be led by the same Facist-driven ideals... deprive its residents of the democratic RIGHT to resort to check-and-balance laws that protect a citizenry from anti-Constitutional/anti-Democratic machinations...
Fact is, a minority of individuals and self-righteous organizations are hell-bent on depriving Utah's residents, as US citizens, of the rights to have essential check-and-balances to the misuse and abuse of power, whether of a majority or minority of individuals... which check-and-balances the Founding Fathers intended all along and allowed and mandated that the 'respective States' had the right to do.
I'm telling you all, the Republican party is fast becoming the party of the fanatical Facist Right.
Let's have a referendum vote to once and for all add the right to referendum process to the Utah constitution itself.
That'll settle the question completely!
The law that allows for a referendum vote to challenge a legislative action is a check-and-balance factor that only the most enlightened and law abiding democracies allow...
The Republican party has already proven during the Bush/Republican congress years that it's not capable of being a one party system without over-reaching into Facist territory, and the one party Republican party controlled State of Utah appears to now be led by the same Facist-driven ideals... deprive its residents of the democratic RIGHT to resort to check-and-balance laws that protect a citizenry from anti-Constitutional/anti-Democratic machinations...
Fact is, a minority of individuals and self-righteous organizations are hell-bent on depriving Utah's residents, as US citizens, of the rights to have essential check-and-balances to the misuse and abuse of power, whether of a majority or minority of individuals... which check-and-balances the Founding Fathers intended all along and allowed and mandated that the 'respective States' had the right to do.
I'm telling you all, the Republican party is fast becoming the party of the fanatical Facist Right.
Let's have a referendum vote to once and for all add the right to referendum process to the Utah constitution itself.
That'll settle the question completely!
We are the elect | 10:51 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The Kingmen have spoken. They want to appoint a King and squash democracy.
Sounds like a Book of Mormon Sunday School lesson to me.
HPS | 10:56 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Bramble's comments prove once again that politicians are politicians first
and either Democrats or Republicans second.
Yes, it is definitely time to send Bramble and Valentine packing, but it should have been done in the primary.
Yes, it is definitely time to send Bramble and Valentine packing, but it should have been done in the primary.
DR Don | 10:59 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
"Whenever I see an initiative on the ballot, I'm always very
suspicious of it."
And well you should be! Initiatives are, by definition, put on the ballot by people who feel the initiative will benefit them. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as the voters realize that they're voting on something placed on the ballot by special interests seeking to advance a definite agenda that will not necessarily benefit the voter.
And well you should be! Initiatives are, by definition, put on the ballot by people who feel the initiative will benefit them. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, as long as the voters realize that they're voting on something placed on the ballot by special interests seeking to advance a definite agenda that will not necessarily benefit the voter.
Stewart | 10:59 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
It looks like the pro-voucher folks are still grumping about their defeat at the
hands of the voters. Some, like Sen. Bramble feel that voter initiatives gives
"special interest groups," and I suppose he means by this Utah voters,
too much influence in government. That is the kettle calling the pot black. If
you really wish to see "special interest groups" in action, the Utah
Legislature is the place to look, only to be superseded by the U.S. Congress.
Anyone that feels that getting an initiative on the ballot is too easy should get involved in the process and they will find that it is already nearly impossible. It is a miracle along with an enormous amount of effort that the voucher initiative made it, to the dismay of the republican leadership. Their arrogance will not allow them to let this win by the "unwashed masses" stand.
Anyone that feels that getting an initiative on the ballot is too easy should get involved in the process and they will find that it is already nearly impossible. It is a miracle along with an enormous amount of effort that the voucher initiative made it, to the dismay of the republican leadership. Their arrogance will not allow them to let this win by the "unwashed masses" stand.
RE: Truth | 11:05 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
"Conservative Republicans who care about their
children�s education and not UEA union bosses scaring
teachers to the polls." What is this, the 1950's? Nobody was scared to
go to the polls. It's just your neo con mind thinking too much.
Taken for Granted | 11:15 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
As a concerned citizen, I'm running for legislative office to put an end to
this kind of arrogance. I, and the people of my district, quite disagree with
Bramble when he says that the GOP "listen to their constituents." It
may be true that the GOP listens to their contributors (for a list, go to the
Utah Candidate Reporting System at the state website), but if they listened to
their constituents there wouldn't have been a voucher bill, much less a law
to be overturned by referendum. The best way to curb such abuses is to vote the
incumbents out--frequently--but referendums and initiatives are a last resort
that should be as sacrosanct as our beloved right to bear arms.
So tell me, Cats, | 11:21 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
How do people keep their legislatures in line when the legislature works to
enact something it knows directly opposes what the people of the state want and
thereby attempts to force its will on an unwilling populace. A good example of
that is the voucher vote you cite. The people of Utah, by a very large margin,
made it plain (before the legislation was enacted) that they did not want
vouchers. (Pleas note that they confirmed that point in the referendum vote by
defeating vouchers by close to a 2/3 margin.)
The legislature knowingly tried to stuff something down the collective throats of Utahns that the people of this state adamantly didn't want. It knowingly tried to impose its will on the people, contrary to their desires. Our representatives derive their power from our consent. When they operate contrary to what we want, they need to be brought up short. They don't like being thwarted, and are trying to take away our ability to stop them.
We need to have a free-enough referendun/initiative process that we CAN haul them up short when they overstep and make sure our wises are put into force. You advocate taking that away. Sad.
The legislature knowingly tried to stuff something down the collective throats of Utahns that the people of this state adamantly didn't want. It knowingly tried to impose its will on the people, contrary to their desires. Our representatives derive their power from our consent. When they operate contrary to what we want, they need to be brought up short. They don't like being thwarted, and are trying to take away our ability to stop them.
We need to have a free-enough referendun/initiative process that we CAN haul them up short when they overstep and make sure our wises are put into force. You advocate taking that away. Sad.
Oh Please | 11:50 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Is Bramble sovereign or are the people? All of Brambles constituents, take
note--"I'm in charge here, I know better than you what's good for
you, so shut your little mouths and be quiet."
Bill Delaney | 11:51 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Well! I have voted Republician for the last 11 elections and it is time to make
a change. When mr. bramble ( spelled in lower case on purpose) states that
" Every pure democracy in history of mankind has failed in a very short
period of time. The wisdom of a representative demoracy is there is some
insulation between that populace, and that doesn't mean the voice of the
people isn't important. That doesn't mean we don't listen to our
constituents."
I guess that your constituents are profiteers and lobbyist like (EX) representive Ferrin who used his position for his own financial gain, and not the public who electicted you. A vote of 61-39 is not even close. What is the matter with your math because your knowlage of history is really lacking.
We in Utah county do not need a new referendum, we just need to vote you, Valentine and the rest of the life time (ordained by God) professional politicans out of office.
I guess that your constituents are profiteers and lobbyist like (EX) representive Ferrin who used his position for his own financial gain, and not the public who electicted you. A vote of 61-39 is not even close. What is the matter with your math because your knowlage of history is really lacking.
We in Utah county do not need a new referendum, we just need to vote you, Valentine and the rest of the life time (ordained by God) professional politicans out of office.
A republic if you can keep it... | 12:02 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
The U.S. is a democratic republic not a pure democracy and for good reason. The
democratic part is that we vote for our representatives but then it's up to
them to do what's best as they listen to our desires. If we don't
like what they do, then we vote them out of office, but we shouldn't change
the law ourselves. When the laws are unconstitutional the courts eliminate them
and the governor can also veto them before they're passed. There are
plenty of checks and balances to prevent bad law from passing.
We the people are the main problem, not always the legislators. We need to voice our opinions more to our representatives so they know how we feel, and more of us need to vote more to boot the bad legislators out of office.
Please don't turn Utah into California where they have 15 initiatives and referenda on every ballot and interest groups spend billions trying to get their way. We pay these legislators to make wise decisions for us, so let's trust that they'll do their job and if they don't kick them out of office.
Matthew Piccolo
We the people are the main problem, not always the legislators. We need to voice our opinions more to our representatives so they know how we feel, and more of us need to vote more to boot the bad legislators out of office.
Please don't turn Utah into California where they have 15 initiatives and referenda on every ballot and interest groups spend billions trying to get their way. We pay these legislators to make wise decisions for us, so let's trust that they'll do their job and if they don't kick them out of office.
Matthew Piccolo
Fed up with politics | 12:23 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Why do politicians run for office in the first place? Remember years ago when
they were threatened with an initiative on term limits. They passed a bill
implementing term limits, but before it actually went into effect, they changed
the initiative requirements, to include more counties and more signatures
required and shortened the amount of time required to get the signatures. Then
when it came time for the term limits to kick in, they repealed it.
Mr. Bramble often states that we don't need term limits, that the voters can remove them at any election. The thing he forgets to mention is they flex their muscle with the lobbists and have huge amounts of campaign money available, where as their poor opponent is starting from scratch. Convenient that they voted to allow themselves to keep any left over campaign funds.
It just warms your heart to see the articles about the lobbyists arms being twisted to contribute or their bills won't be sponsored.
I have tried contacting my representative and senator, my senator, a democrat, actually responds, the republican representative only responded after a negative letter to the editor, wonder why?
Mr. Bramble often states that we don't need term limits, that the voters can remove them at any election. The thing he forgets to mention is they flex their muscle with the lobbists and have huge amounts of campaign money available, where as their poor opponent is starting from scratch. Convenient that they voted to allow themselves to keep any left over campaign funds.
It just warms your heart to see the articles about the lobbyists arms being twisted to contribute or their bills won't be sponsored.
I have tried contacting my representative and senator, my senator, a democrat, actually responds, the republican representative only responded after a negative letter to the editor, wonder why?
Medicare Kid | 12:31 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
It isn't just the legislature that don't represent the public. In
Sevier county, the County Commissioners, all Republicans, acting like democrats,
want to give the citizens something they just don't want: a coal powered
Power Plant, in the middle of a narrow valley subject to temperature inversions.
Kenny | 12:39 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Utah County "Republicans" need to offically start their own party
known as the Facists of Utah County.
EdM | 12:43 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
To: A Republic if you can keep it
We have LET these legislators do their jobs and they have ignored the will of the people. They are elected to serve us, NOT to tell us what they think we should have. As to having plenty of checks and balances to prevent bad laws from passing: HELLO??? What about the school district split law? That is probably the worst case of legislative action in the last 20 years in this state.
We have LET these legislators do their jobs and they have ignored the will of the people. They are elected to serve us, NOT to tell us what they think we should have. As to having plenty of checks and balances to prevent bad laws from passing: HELLO??? What about the school district split law? That is probably the worst case of legislative action in the last 20 years in this state.
Initiative law | 12:56 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
I do think a geographic component to referendum, initiatives, and other direct
democratic actions is a very important safeguard. I would not want to be in a
situation where the heavily populated Wasatch Front could force their will on
rural areas too easily.
While one should not look to much at any specific issue or item (IE school vouchers) when considering how to architect government, it is worth noting that such a requirement probably would NOT have changed the outcome on this issue as rural areas seemed even less enamored with the vouchers than did the urban areas.
While one should not look to much at any specific issue or item (IE school vouchers) when considering how to architect government, it is worth noting that such a requirement probably would NOT have changed the outcome on this issue as rural areas seemed even less enamored with the vouchers than did the urban areas.
Demo | 12:59 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
This is simply a power grap by the conservative legislature in Utah who think
they know whats best for everyone. This is the same mindset that led to illegal
activities in our recent primary election for The State Treasurer. This is the
Fruit of the one party rule that Utahns have decided to accept.
To EdM: | 1:12 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
If we have let the legislators do their jobs and they have "ignored the
will of the people," then vote them out of office this fall or whenever
they are up for re-election. Tell them that you're not happy about what
they're doing. If you're not happy with your legislator, then maybe
you should consider running for office to take his/her place. I know the system
isn't perfect, but it's a lot better than having everybody vote on
issues. California politics are chaotic now with all their initiatives and
referenda. Let's not follow the same path.
Bramble is the worst | 1:25 p.m. Aug. 19, 2008
Curt Bramble is the absolute worst. If we get him out of office, the entire
political and electoral process will improve. He needs to be removed, then
those who oppose him will not be bullied.
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