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Swinton may be witness in FLDS evidence challenge
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The state will lose the evidence | 4:26 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
No way is this biased judge going to let any evidence get thrown out; no way is
she going to let the FLDS win. All of this will have to be decided on appeal,
and all this business with Rozita is going to be very damaging to the state, and
to the Governor. Of course the state is claiming this is work product, which is
a joke. Their investigation of Rozita is a charade, just so they can refuse to
release the evidence that they knew all along who she was. They will do
everything they can to keep that evidence hidden, and eventually, they will say
that they lost it.
Interloper | 4:36 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Despite the fervor with which some people have tried to scapegoat the FLDS'
abuses onto Rozita Swinton, it is irrational to believe doing so will work. The
calls she may have made to battered women's shelters were not the only
calls they received from FLDS enclaves. Some of the calls continued after the
women and children were in custody, with a caller describing conditions in a
temporary shelter. Furthermore, the entry to the Yearning for Zion Ranch by
CPS and law enforcement was in good faith. Last, but certainly not least,
additional evidence of child abuse was found in plain sight. The result is
multiple grounds for admitting voluminous evidence against the FLDS.
David | 6:21 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
This is the very reason why I protested against the FLDS raid. Now evidence
will indeed be tossed and guilty men will go free. You must obey the laws of
the land especially if you represent the law. I am not pro-flds but the writing
was on a wall since the beginning with even the FLDS deserving the same rights
that every other citizen shares.
Comments continue below
Bot | 6:31 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
The locals in Eldorado were worried about the FLDS taking over the county, so
State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran sponsored a bill in 2005 that raised the legal age
of consent to marry in Texas from 14 to 16. This was specifically targeted
against the FLDS. When the FLDS moved to Texas the legal age was 14.
If the state really wants to stop child abuse, the CPS should concentrate on inner-city Dallas or Houston girls who conceived at age 15 or less. Jail the twenty-something men who impregnated them and attach their wages so the girls can be self-supporting (like the FLDS). Then prosecute the Planned Parenthood offices which refuse to identify the adult fathers who impregnate girls 15 or less. Those offices should be closed down.
If the state really wants to stop child abuse, the CPS should concentrate on inner-city Dallas or Houston girls who conceived at age 15 or less. Jail the twenty-something men who impregnated them and attach their wages so the girls can be self-supporting (like the FLDS). Then prosecute the Planned Parenthood offices which refuse to identify the adult fathers who impregnate girls 15 or less. Those offices should be closed down.
David | 6:38 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
It is not irrational when one knows where the person accused of abuse is located
and it's not even in the state. The entry to the YFZ ranch was not in good
faith when one considers that: 1. The person accused of abuse doesn't live
in that state and his location was verifiable. 2. The police entered in military
fashion using excessive means. 3. Individual homes were treated as one home that
could be likened to one warrant per our apartment complexes...not even
individual apartment buildings, but complex. 4. Despite the fact that there was
indeed some abuse, the rate seems to be lower than outside the complex and not
pervasive. It also assume that one can punish the many for the actions of a
few. The next time your neighbor has a child removed for abuse, yours too can be
removed since this is the precedent set forth by the FLDS raid. To cement this
point, there were monogamous couples that also had their children removed for
not reason than guilt by association. 5. There was no evidence "in plain
sight." But a 37 year old woman was listed as minor despite legal
documentation that was rejected by CPS.
nosugrof | 6:40 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
The raid was not conducted in good faith. A small amount of investigation would
have shown that these phone calls were hoaxes and that Dale Barlow was in
Arizona. That's not good faith.
David | 6:57 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
In Texas, a 14 year old girl gets pregnant every 10 hours.
Anonymous | 7:10 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Do whatever it takes to shut down these religious private prisons for good.
nosugrof | 7:24 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Witness the swiftness of the judge's response to the CPS request to seize 8
children and the slowness of her response to the FLDS request.
Joey | 7:28 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Interloper says: "Some of the calls continued after the women and children
were in custody, with a caller describing conditions in a temporary
shelter."
-------------
Exactly. I hope those subpoenaed will tell who it was Rozita was working with on the inside, since it appears she had a lot of privileged information on the raid, as it happened.
-------------
Exactly. I hope those subpoenaed will tell who it was Rozita was working with on the inside, since it appears she had a lot of privileged information on the raid, as it happened.
JND | 7:43 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Good to see you FLDS worshippers back. Keep dreaming.
Cats | 7:49 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
The locals were worried about the FLDS taking over the county? lol. What
they're worried about is the inappropriate and immoral lifestyle the FLDS
live and perpetrate on women and children too young to know what their doing. I
can certainly understand why the locals are thoroughly disgusted by what they
have seen. There is PLENTY of evidence of abuse without Rozita Swinton.
You can't go on abusing women and children and flaunting the law forever. Eventually it catches up with you. Warren Jeffs established the YFZ Ranch because he was on the run from the law in Utah and Arizona. Now, he is paying the price for his disgusting, illegal behavior. He has admitted he is a FALSE PROPHET.
I hope all these men are now brought to justice. I hope victims like Elissa Wall win lawsuits and get all the FLDS assets. Then there might be a chance to save more victims and give these people a chance at a decent life.
You can't go on abusing women and children and flaunting the law forever. Eventually it catches up with you. Warren Jeffs established the YFZ Ranch because he was on the run from the law in Utah and Arizona. Now, he is paying the price for his disgusting, illegal behavior. He has admitted he is a FALSE PROPHET.
I hope all these men are now brought to justice. I hope victims like Elissa Wall win lawsuits and get all the FLDS assets. Then there might be a chance to save more victims and give these people a chance at a decent life.
To David | 7:52 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Even if it is true that a 14-year-old girl in Texas gets pregnant every 10
minutes (and considering you're outside the YFZ Ranch), it isn't with
the consent of her parents because their religious leader ordered it so...
What's more messed up: an insecure 14-year-old who feels the only way to feel loved is to get pregnant, or a 14-year-old who gets pregnant because she is forced into an arranged marriage by her brainwashed parents?
What's more messed up: an insecure 14-year-old who feels the only way to feel loved is to get pregnant, or a 14-year-old who gets pregnant because she is forced into an arranged marriage by her brainwashed parents?
David | 7:57 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
It never ceases to amaze me that simply demanding that all citizens be treated
equally and fairly gets a "flds worshiper" response. What is
absolutely not understood is that if we allow our government, in the form of the
legal system, to treat one group unfairly, you might be the next unpopular
group.
Again, a 14 year old gets pregnant every 10 hours. that rate is higher than the FLDS group. Why is it that we virtually ignore those non-flds girls? Is it because of the color of their skin? While the FLDS girls are white?
Again, a 14 year old gets pregnant every 10 hours. that rate is higher than the FLDS group. Why is it that we virtually ignore those non-flds girls? Is it because of the color of their skin? While the FLDS girls are white?
Re: Bot | 8:00 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
"The locals in Eldorado were worried about the FLDS taking over the county,
so State Rep. Harvey Hilderbran sponsored a bill in 2005 that raised the legal
age of consent to marry in Texas from 14 to 16. This was specifically targeted
against the FLDS. When the FLDS moved to Texas the legal age was 14."
The change in law was targetted at using a loophole in the law to get away with raping young girls. The loophole was closed, but the FLDS decided that they were still above the law and continued forcing young girls into "marriages."
The change in law was targetted at using a loophole in the law to get away with raping young girls. The loophole was closed, but the FLDS decided that they were still above the law and continued forcing young girls into "marriages."
common sense | 8:07 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
The town may be small, but having flds take over the town is ridiculus. This
ranch started in 2003, and was going full force by 2005, if Flds wanted to run a
candidate or even VOTE, they would of filled out voting cards... lol
Did they? NO they didnt, and didnt even ASK for registration cards till AFTER the raid.
Come on people get REAL!!!
Your grasping at straws!
Did they? NO they didnt, and didnt even ASK for registration cards till AFTER the raid.
Come on people get REAL!!!
Your grasping at straws!
common sense | 8:24 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Maybe some of you should brush up on Texas CPS laws and statutes. Its very eye
opening. Cps had all the ducks in a row when it came to the warrants and search
warrants.
goldilocks | 8:32 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
It is almost hilarious to hear people like Cats speculate about what you think
is going on with the FLDS. I guess that explains it, you aren't
"people"; you're a cat. Truth is, you just don't know what
you are talking about. You are going to be embarrassed someday for thinking you
knew it all when you didn't. I wish you could know the truth for yourself,
but you're too blind and to prejudiced to see it.
zxcvbnm | 8:41 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Looks like the FLDS does a better job of locating Swinton than CPS. How about that for an investigation.
We keep hearing about the evidence that CPS "saw" that allowed the warrant for removal of the children. They "saw" two pregnant adults. Two pregnant adults. Two pregnant adults. Two pregnant adults.
They saw no "Sarah"......not a "pregnant Sarah" or a pregnant Sarahs' eight month old child.
The nighttime "interogations" provided useless information transcribed by four CPS women with little sleep and kept awake by coffee........just read the Voss description of the events.
The confusion created by CPS created the conditions needed by CPS to provide the non-existant persons seen by CPS.
This whole mess was created by CPS.
David | 8:45 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
The problem remains that there were MONOGAMOUS and INNOCENT of ANY crime that
were handled with the same measure as those guilty. It also remains that 14
year olds outside the FLDS group get pregnant to "feel loved" and at a
higher rate than FLDS girls. You need only watch an episode of Maury for
confirmation. Some even do so with parental consent since those very parents
did exactly the same. I personally feel that those parents should be charged
with accomplice to statutory rape. Again, it is all about applying the law
equally and which seems not to be the case.
For the record, I am not FLDS but card carrying agnostic.
For the record, I am not FLDS but card carrying agnostic.
John Pack Lambert | 8:45 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
What do they mean when they say the Ranger will be required to release
"work product"? I got totally lost on that line.
not a church | 8:55 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
too funny that they would be trying to use "priest-penitent" when they
aren't even registered as a church. The evidence will be admissible and
people are going to jail. As they should.
In fact, I think all the parents that even knew about the underage marriages should go to jail for not reporting it. And then all the other parents should go to jail for conspiracy, since teaching their children to practice polygamy is in fact conspiracy to commit. It's also child abuse to teach your child to break the law.
Then maybe we'll see some FLDS kids getting to choose their own future instead of living in the repression they have to live with now.
In fact, I think all the parents that even knew about the underage marriages should go to jail for not reporting it. And then all the other parents should go to jail for conspiracy, since teaching their children to practice polygamy is in fact conspiracy to commit. It's also child abuse to teach your child to break the law.
Then maybe we'll see some FLDS kids getting to choose their own future instead of living in the repression they have to live with now.
John Pack Lambert | 9:14 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
I am not sure how realistic the FLDS take over was. However Hildebran and
his allies were trying to change Texas voting laws to require greater residency
time to vote and run for office.
They may be overly paranoid, but they were trying to lessen the voting rights of many Texans.
They may be overly paranoid, but they were trying to lessen the voting rights of many Texans.
FLDS to blame | 9:45 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
The whole mess was created by the FLDS insistance on forcing young, underage
girls into arranged marriages and forced sexual relations.
A bunch of perverted old men, weren't content with waiting for the young girls to become adults, so they convinced the brainwashed mothers to go along with giving away their precious daughters, in the name of "religious" beliefs, according to their now convicted child-abusing "prophet."
A bunch of perverted old men, weren't content with waiting for the young girls to become adults, so they convinced the brainwashed mothers to go along with giving away their precious daughters, in the name of "religious" beliefs, according to their now convicted child-abusing "prophet."
Gal50 | 10:00 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Rosita Swinton couldn't add anything to the case since she lacks
credibility. These lists always include more people than are called. Many people
in the general population tend to have some paranoia, which is how conspiracy
theories come about. Rosita Swinton and Texas authorities were not a team. For
all we know, Rosita Swinton could have been in a shelter herself at some point
in her life and just used that information to continue conning CPS.
It appears the FLDS takes great care to protect criminal members. It doesn't seem to realize that people like Elissa Wall and Carolyn Jessop have power, which they effectively use. News accounts state that the county library stocked ex-FLDS books, which were understood to be true since there were no defamation lawsuits.
So when Rosita Swinton called, her story was believable. There is no coincidence here. Rosita identifies with victims and she probably couldn't handle the fact that little was being done about the victims within the FLDS. It appears she crosses a line that most of us won't cross.
The FLDS also lacked credibility at the time of the raid. Texas was correct to assume Sarah and Barlow were on the ranch.
It appears the FLDS takes great care to protect criminal members. It doesn't seem to realize that people like Elissa Wall and Carolyn Jessop have power, which they effectively use. News accounts state that the county library stocked ex-FLDS books, which were understood to be true since there were no defamation lawsuits.
So when Rosita Swinton called, her story was believable. There is no coincidence here. Rosita identifies with victims and she probably couldn't handle the fact that little was being done about the victims within the FLDS. It appears she crosses a line that most of us won't cross.
The FLDS also lacked credibility at the time of the raid. Texas was correct to assume Sarah and Barlow were on the ranch.
re David 7:57am | 10:04 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
it never ceases to amaze me when people post on here without even thinking their
argument through. What are you talking about, David?
You REALLY ok with parents training their daughters to get pregnant as early as possible, and letting someone else (their "prophet") decide who and when the girl should marry? And it's usually an uncle, stepfather, or cousin?
You REALLY can't see a difference between that and some teenage girl that sneaks out and has sex with her 16 yr old boyfriend?
The gov't isn't treating "this group" (FLDS) unfairly. As a matter of fact, they have given them about as many breaks as possible. They continue to teach their children to practice polygamy (that's conspiracy) and push their daughters to marry and have children at as young an age as possible (that's child abuse). And that's just the half of it.
You can only stand by and watch for so long. Then when it's time to act, act decisively. As Texas did.
I agree with "not a church 8:55am". At least 95% of the parents are guilty of conspiracy. Jail 'em and maybe the kids can have a future of their own choosing.
You REALLY ok with parents training their daughters to get pregnant as early as possible, and letting someone else (their "prophet") decide who and when the girl should marry? And it's usually an uncle, stepfather, or cousin?
You REALLY can't see a difference between that and some teenage girl that sneaks out and has sex with her 16 yr old boyfriend?
The gov't isn't treating "this group" (FLDS) unfairly. As a matter of fact, they have given them about as many breaks as possible. They continue to teach their children to practice polygamy (that's conspiracy) and push their daughters to marry and have children at as young an age as possible (that's child abuse). And that's just the half of it.
You can only stand by and watch for so long. Then when it's time to act, act decisively. As Texas did.
I agree with "not a church 8:55am". At least 95% of the parents are guilty of conspiracy. Jail 'em and maybe the kids can have a future of their own choosing.
polynewsaddict | 10:06 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Ditto on the comment previously posted, "Not a church".
Also, just get you guys in an uproar, Rozita Swinson is a black queen that is one of my modern day heroes, She deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.
Also, just get you guys in an uproar, Rozita Swinson is a black queen that is one of my modern day heroes, She deserves the Nobel Peace Prize.
Flds losers | 10:07 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
The sooner they shut down all the Flds compounds, across the southwest, the
better this country will be. We cannot have children being forced into marriages
with old stinken geezers.
Gal50 | 10:17 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
There are two groups battling in the comments section. There are FLDS friendly
versus those who dislike the FLDS behavior. And there are those who are
concerned about the law versus those who think that there was criminal behavior
so everything Texas did was justified.
David is concerned about the law. He is correct that if there is a Sarah hidden in a community, the police can not enter every residence looking for a Sarah. However, it appears there is a pattern of statutory rape among the FLDS as there are ten currently underage victims and about twenty adults who were victimized as children. Texas was aware of this pattern prior to entering the compound and it thought it saw evidence of this pattern upon entering which led to the search. If ten children in a school are being raped by ten teachers, you bet law enforcement is going to search the entire school. Given the appellate court ruling, it appears that the court will view the residences as separate, which may result in a return of the seized evidence as a search of every home was not justified.
David is concerned about the law. He is correct that if there is a Sarah hidden in a community, the police can not enter every residence looking for a Sarah. However, it appears there is a pattern of statutory rape among the FLDS as there are ten currently underage victims and about twenty adults who were victimized as children. Texas was aware of this pattern prior to entering the compound and it thought it saw evidence of this pattern upon entering which led to the search. If ten children in a school are being raped by ten teachers, you bet law enforcement is going to search the entire school. Given the appellate court ruling, it appears that the court will view the residences as separate, which may result in a return of the seized evidence as a search of every home was not justified.
pliggy | 10:23 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Poor brainwashed public. Following your prophets Carolyn and Flora Jessop
Joey | 10:31 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
High courts have ruled that teaching your child something illegal is not child
abuse, and not grounds to have children taken away, until the child acts on the
illegal teaching with you. So, no, in general, it's not "conspiracy to
commit crimes" to teach that polygamy is acceptable.
As for Rozita Swinton, she is reported to have mentioned specifics of the raid, such as names of social workers in the colliseum, the timing of when toys were handed out, etc. So it appears she was being informed by someone on the inside. It would be of interest to find out who she got that info from, to see whether or not she was in collusion with the Texas authorities.
As for Rozita Swinton, she is reported to have mentioned specifics of the raid, such as names of social workers in the colliseum, the timing of when toys were handed out, etc. So it appears she was being informed by someone on the inside. It would be of interest to find out who she got that info from, to see whether or not she was in collusion with the Texas authorities.
re David 8:45am | 10:35 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
again you seem to not be thinking through your comments. What does a 16 yr old
girl sneaking out with her boyfriend have to do with a parent TRAINING her
daughter to marry and have sex with her uncle or stepfather? Can you really not
see any difference?
You probably should take some time to think about it, since they are not even in the same league.
You probably should take some time to think about it, since they are not even in the same league.
Gal50 | 10:36 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
At the same time Texas entered the compound, Arizona (or Nevada?) investigated
and chose not to do anything about the calls because they couldn't
establish that the calls were credible. So, I can see why we have to examine why
Texas authorities entered that compound. I think they erred on the side of
safety of the child, Sarah, but perhaps not. I don't think the state would
have entered the compound if the state knew the call was a hoax, because it
would look stupid.
I don't think Texas could verify that the perpetrator was not in Texas because the FLDS people were not considered credible. There was a history of forgetting and lying. Just because there was a Barlow in Utah, doesn't mean that there wasn't a Barlow on the ranch. There are two Willie Jessops and the one we hear from used to be called something like Willie Stimpson. If the Barlow in Utah was the guy, no one could prove that he hadn't been in Texas on a temporary basis. It seems that the FLDS travel back and forth. Finally, wasn't the Barlow in Utah convicted of sexual abuse? Texas took the word of the victim.
I don't think Texas could verify that the perpetrator was not in Texas because the FLDS people were not considered credible. There was a history of forgetting and lying. Just because there was a Barlow in Utah, doesn't mean that there wasn't a Barlow on the ranch. There are two Willie Jessops and the one we hear from used to be called something like Willie Stimpson. If the Barlow in Utah was the guy, no one could prove that he hadn't been in Texas on a temporary basis. It seems that the FLDS travel back and forth. Finally, wasn't the Barlow in Utah convicted of sexual abuse? Texas took the word of the victim.
re Gal50 | 10:39 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
on the contrary - if the sherrif gets a call that a girl is being held against
her will (kidnapping) and forced to have sex (rape) and they get an area
warrant, they can most certainly search every residence in a community.
Besides, it was only one residence. One address, one household. Wasn't registered as a multi-family dwelling like an apartment building. Was registered as one dwelling. Totally legal search.
Besides, it was only one residence. One address, one household. Wasn't registered as a multi-family dwelling like an apartment building. Was registered as one dwelling. Totally legal search.
re pliggy | 10:42 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
LOLOL - good one. Now that's good clean humor.
too bad ours are rich and yours is in prison.
still got your house in Short Creek? better start packing.
good luck with that.
too bad ours are rich and yours is in prison.
still got your house in Short Creek? better start packing.
good luck with that.
zxcvbnm | 10:50 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
well gal 50.........in Texas only one teacher rapes one student per case..........there are several teacher student rapes being investigated at this moment in Texas.
CPS did not raid a school to prevent future rapes of the rest of the students.........now theres a job that will provide job security for CPS.
Joey | 11:37 a.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Gal50 says "FLDS people were not considered credible" and therefore
there was no reason to believe them when they provided solid evidence (a phone
call) to the cop at the gate that Dale Barlow was in Arizona not YFZ.
In fact, a statement like that could be used in court to show bias, and hence bad faith, because it proves that the Rangers were bigotted from the start, and didn't find credible any person in the FLDS at all. That's called a violation of civil rights, because they stereotyped a group, judging an individual based on his group affiliation. There's your bad faith. The warrant, which wasn't an area warrant, and was for a person who they should have known was not on the ranch on April 3rd, will be thrown out.
In fact, a statement like that could be used in court to show bias, and hence bad faith, because it proves that the Rangers were bigotted from the start, and didn't find credible any person in the FLDS at all. That's called a violation of civil rights, because they stereotyped a group, judging an individual based on his group affiliation. There's your bad faith. The warrant, which wasn't an area warrant, and was for a person who they should have known was not on the ranch on April 3rd, will be thrown out.
re zxcvbnm 10:50am | 12:12 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
what does a teacher have to do with FLDS? One teaches math and one teaches
their child to marry their uncle? great comparison.
David | 12:12 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Why is it that you assume girls only get pregnant by sneaking out with boys
their own age? My cousin snuck out to be with a man 20 years her senior, she
was the babysitter. She got pregnant and then prompted by him, he's an
attorney, had an abortion to destroy the evidence. While some of the 14 year
olds that do get pregnant do so with 16 year olds, that is definitely not always
the case and one would seem very foolish to believe so.
While you complain that the FLDS are teaching their children polygamy, remember that John Edwards has a second family but the woman is not called his wife but mistress and the child remains illegitimate. Apparently that is a fine lesson for him to be teaching his young and legitimate children. Akon also publically admits to polygamy and there is no threat of a charge.
While you complain that the FLDS are teaching their children polygamy, remember that John Edwards has a second family but the woman is not called his wife but mistress and the child remains illegitimate. Apparently that is a fine lesson for him to be teaching his young and legitimate children. Akon also publically admits to polygamy and there is no threat of a charge.
zxcvbnm | 12:15 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Enter comment
Better check the county ordinances befor you claim buildings need to be registered as single or multi family.
Can't speak for Schleicher County but the county I reside in has no ordinances and or building codes concerning occupancy.
County regulations apply outside city limit boundaries........and with no Bank oversight there is no need to meet codes.
I guess with no occupancy regulations there is one less law to use against illegals......been on any Texas farms lately?
Better check the county ordinances befor you claim buildings need to be registered as single or multi family.
Can't speak for Schleicher County but the county I reside in has no ordinances and or building codes concerning occupancy.
County regulations apply outside city limit boundaries........and with no Bank oversight there is no need to meet codes.
I guess with no occupancy regulations there is one less law to use against illegals......been on any Texas farms lately?
R | 12:34 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Good, finally she's getting retribution for her lies. I hope, in addition
to jail time, that she's made to pay every cent of the FLDS legal fees, as
well as for the damage to their property, and any counseling the children will
need after being held captive by CPS.
The motion was filed in April, and she's only now getting to it? Busy is no excuse; as I understand it, she could have assigned some cases to other judges.
And the notion that YFZ was a single household is nonsense, as the Texas higher courts have pointed out.
but on site, they claimed to have seen other signs of child abuse that prompted a judge to order the removal of all of the children from the compound.
I wonder what that is. Probably their imaginary pregnant teens.
The motion was filed in April, and she's only now getting to it? Busy is no excuse; as I understand it, she could have assigned some cases to other judges.
And the notion that YFZ was a single household is nonsense, as the Texas higher courts have pointed out.
but on site, they claimed to have seen other signs of child abuse that prompted a judge to order the removal of all of the children from the compound.
I wonder what that is. Probably their imaginary pregnant teens.
Thinking | 1:43 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
A search warrant to be legal must be specific, even if it is an area warrant.
They can not take any and all records with specific warrant to do so and in the
civilized world such broad search warrants are never issued because they violate
the very purpose of warrants. Perhaps not all the evidence will be thrown out,
but from the reports available at this point, it seem much will when the
criminal proceeding go forward.
To bad a little decent police work would have saved a great deal of time, money and lowering of civil rights in Texas. Of course, now we now where the Bush administration gets its legal opinions.
To bad a little decent police work would have saved a great deal of time, money and lowering of civil rights in Texas. Of course, now we now where the Bush administration gets its legal opinions.
David | 3:02 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
I am married to an attorney and we have thoroughly discussed this case. It is
not acceptable to issue a warrant to an ENTIRE set of apartment complexes. If
an individual commits an illegal act against his/her children you may not remove
the children of his/her neighbor who are not in any way involved in the illegal
activity. Finally, sodomy was once illegal in Texas and ultimately was
overruled but it's beginnings also had a fraudulent phone call. See
Lawrence v. Texas for a better understanding of slippery slope. While many
claim that since the FLDS didn't register, they aren't a religion.
Unfortunately you don't understand that registration only excludes them
from taxes. The Church of Scientology registered in the U.S. and receives
exemption while only considered a business in many other countries. A
bishop's record certainly can be argued as religious. Of note, in Texas
the most they can get is common-law polygamy since NONE of the marriages were
legally documented with the courts. Funny though, adultery without spousal
consent is condoned in Texas while spousal consent gets you legal action.
re- David 3:02pm | 4:45 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
First of all, the Texas ranch was one address. One ranch. Just because it had
multiple buildings doesn't mean it wasn't included in the search
warrant. So you couldn't be more wrong.
And a "bishop's record" only applies if you are a recognized church. The FLDS are not registered, and while that may be for taxes, it also shows state recognition that it is a religion. Otherwise we could all say we are a religion and keep documents out of law enforcement hands. It's like an attorney - you can't claim attorney/client privelege if you're not a registered attorney.
Finally, on polygamy, NO ONE CARES!! If the FLDS would stop brainwashing their children and let them get out instead of pre-determining their future, we probably wouldn't care about any of this. At least then the girls would know that ITS NOT NORMAL to marry your uncle when you're 15 yrs old.
what don't you get?
And a "bishop's record" only applies if you are a recognized church. The FLDS are not registered, and while that may be for taxes, it also shows state recognition that it is a religion. Otherwise we could all say we are a religion and keep documents out of law enforcement hands. It's like an attorney - you can't claim attorney/client privelege if you're not a registered attorney.
Finally, on polygamy, NO ONE CARES!! If the FLDS would stop brainwashing their children and let them get out instead of pre-determining their future, we probably wouldn't care about any of this. At least then the girls would know that ITS NOT NORMAL to marry your uncle when you're 15 yrs old.
what don't you get?
zxcvbnm | 5:50 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
THe FLDS was registered in 1942 and again in 1948...........the records are out there.
That building is not a parking garage......yet.
Why | 6:34 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
does the attorneys for the fds want all the evidence taken from the ranch thrown
out. Could there be damaging evidence???
David | 6:35 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
While the ranch was one piece of property, there were multiple residences...just
like an apartment complex. My child is in college. All the students use the
same address...get that, the same exact address. Do you actually think that one
warrant would apply to every student on the entire campus? LOL!!
The bishop's record and registering as a church are two completely different issues. Again, registering as a church is purely to NOT pay taxes. The FLDS chooses to pay tax such does not make them any less a religion. It has NO BEARING on the Bishop's record which is clearly religious.
You claim the FLDS "brainwash" their children. If you teach your children anything about an old man in the sky, I believe that is brainwashing. Unfortunately what you "don't get" is how this can impact you. I never denied that crimes took place. But why do you pretend they don't take place in your own neighborhood? Oddly enough, crime takes place at a lower rate among the FLDS. Should that crime be punished? Yes, but not the innocent as guilty merely by association and one is guilty until proven innocent. Google the poem "first they came" by Niem�ller
The bishop's record and registering as a church are two completely different issues. Again, registering as a church is purely to NOT pay taxes. The FLDS chooses to pay tax such does not make them any less a religion. It has NO BEARING on the Bishop's record which is clearly religious.
You claim the FLDS "brainwash" their children. If you teach your children anything about an old man in the sky, I believe that is brainwashing. Unfortunately what you "don't get" is how this can impact you. I never denied that crimes took place. But why do you pretend they don't take place in your own neighborhood? Oddly enough, crime takes place at a lower rate among the FLDS. Should that crime be punished? Yes, but not the innocent as guilty merely by association and one is guilty until proven innocent. Google the poem "first they came" by Niem�ller
Red | 7:38 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
not a church 8:55 am: "... they aren't even registered as a
church...."
In China, you have to register with the State to be a church. Not only register -- you have to give Communist bureaucrats ultimate authority over your organization. For example, Commies decide who gets to be a priest, bishop, or cardinal in the officially-registered Roman Catholic church. The Pope can just go [deleted] (this is, after all, a family newspaper).
We don't live in China. We're 'murricans! Yay red whiten bleu! I've never heard of a 'murrican Church having to register with the State. Do Lone Star bureaucrats get a "thumbs up/thumbs down" on every Catholic priest and megachurch bible-thumper?
Please.
In China, you have to register with the State to be a church. Not only register -- you have to give Communist bureaucrats ultimate authority over your organization. For example, Commies decide who gets to be a priest, bishop, or cardinal in the officially-registered Roman Catholic church. The Pope can just go [deleted] (this is, after all, a family newspaper).
We don't live in China. We're 'murricans! Yay red whiten bleu! I've never heard of a 'murrican Church having to register with the State. Do Lone Star bureaucrats get a "thumbs up/thumbs down" on every Catholic priest and megachurch bible-thumper?
Please.
Red | 7:45 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
Gal50 10:00 am: "Rosita Swinton and Texas authorities were not a
team."
Don't know about that.
According to the far-reaching definitions Officer Friendly and his kangaroo-herding jurists use, you can be in a "conspiracy" with people you've never met.
People you've never even heard of!
Just like "swiftboaters for wonderfulism" and the candidate of your choice.
Sometimes a "team" doesn't require a lot of teamwork.
Don't know about that.
According to the far-reaching definitions Officer Friendly and his kangaroo-herding jurists use, you can be in a "conspiracy" with people you've never met.
People you've never even heard of!
Just like "swiftboaters for wonderfulism" and the candidate of your choice.
Sometimes a "team" doesn't require a lot of teamwork.
realitycheck | 10:38 p.m. Aug. 18, 2008
re - david and red
1st, this wasn't a college nor an apt building. it was/is a ranch. all one address. the warrant was for the ranch - again all one address. what don't you get?
2nd, if no registration is required, how does one "prove" they are a church? they have a white building so it's a temple? you SURE it's a church. maybe it's just a cult.
How does a church need to be defined for the state to recognize it?
I don't know the answer, but I know you can't just say "hey - i'm a church, i have privliges."
besides, any "church" who's main theme is controlling your children through isolation and intimidation is a pretty sad church. and pathetic parents if they can't raise decent kids without depriving them of all their future rights. it's too bad they are so incapable.
1st, this wasn't a college nor an apt building. it was/is a ranch. all one address. the warrant was for the ranch - again all one address. what don't you get?
2nd, if no registration is required, how does one "prove" they are a church? they have a white building so it's a temple? you SURE it's a church. maybe it's just a cult.
How does a church need to be defined for the state to recognize it?
I don't know the answer, but I know you can't just say "hey - i'm a church, i have privliges."
besides, any "church" who's main theme is controlling your children through isolation and intimidation is a pretty sad church. and pathetic parents if they can't raise decent kids without depriving them of all their future rights. it's too bad they are so incapable.
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