Deseret News | Reader comments: Will Utah GOP release Mitt's delegates?

Reader comments
Will Utah GOP release Mitt's delegates?

marsha westenberg | 12:30 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Stop nit picking. It is Mc Cain or Obama. Try 4 years with "Osama" and see how life is at that point.

Anonymous | 1:24 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

"And that could be embarrassing for Romney, who is clearly trying to convince McCain to pick him as his vice presidential running mate."

Maybe things are little clouded for me, Bob, because I don't clearly see Romney trying to convince McCain to choose him. McCain is considering him, and wisely so, but what hard evidence do you have that Romney is activly seeking to be nominated vice president? What I see is Romney is Romney trying to avoid an emberassing moment at the convention and make a run in '12 or '16 if the oppertunity arrises.

Maybe I'm slow... | 1:24 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

but Utah isn't the only state where McCain was not chosen. So what happens in those states? Do they automatically switch to McCain? If so, why is it an issue here. If not....well, why is it an issue here?

Comments continue below

Mike Ridgway | 1:57 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Marsha:

Standing up for rule of law and against party bosses who think that rules were only meant for little people like you and me is hardly nitpicking.

The arrogant disregard for rule of law on the part of modern-day Republican neo-con infiltrators like George W. Bush, Mike Leavitt, Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Karl Rove, Orrin Hatch, Chris Cannon, and Rob Bishop has virtually obliterated any respect that the average American voter has for the Republican Party nationally (and in Utah) and has likewise obliterated what respect citizens of other countries once had for the United States of America.

Ignorant and apathetic mockers such as yourself who take the defense of tyrants, cheats, and liars who come dressed in Republican clothing will have much to explain when the flames of freedom are extinguished in our nation and in the world once and for all.

My compliments to Republican activists like Don Guymon (and others not mentioned in the article, such as GOP state central committee members, Nancy Lord and Dale Kay, who have publicly called for Stan Lockhart's resignation).

I share their sentiments. Lockhart must be deposed.

John Potter | 6:12 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

National Bylaws clearly state that the rules must be in place on or before the first tuesday in September before the primary elections. When this matter was brought before the State Delegates at the State Convention they voted against this from happening.

To me this appears to be a direct abuse of his and others in power in our State GOP and a violation trust of all county delegates who voted for the State Central Committee members if they allow it.

Furthermore, why would our National Delegates need to be unbound? Check out "the green papers.com" for the real Delegate count that the general public doesn't know about. McCain is not the automatic nominee.

Romney | 6:36 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Romney does not wish to be embar. at the convention by having his name put forth but not having enough votes?

Emb.? Really. I would be proud to be considered a candidate for president from any party.

Isn't it stupid what politicians do to "look good" or "look presidential"? Good grief, just be human.

What's in a vote? | 8:06 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

This reminds me of the elections in Iraq when Saddam Hussein used to receive like 99% of the vote... Did anyone really buy that? Is anyone really going to buy it if McCain goes to the convention and gets 99% of the vote or whatever... come on! Show that we have a real democracy here and not the same smoke and mirrors done by dictators! If everyone votes how they should McCain will win anyway... Show that the process has some integrity and let it play out!

Questioning | 8:32 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

The article said "Romney, hugely popular in Utah in part because of his management of the 2002 Salt Lake Winter Olympics"

Give me a break! Only the Deseret News would claim this is the reason for Romney's popularity in Utah!

arc | 8:56 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

If this was so cut and dried, why was there a vote in May about this. The vote failed to pass.

If this was so cut and dried, why has it taken two more months before it shows up again.

If Lockhart does this without even 120 votes to unbound from the committee, he is risking all of Utah's votes and even if that is not the case, he will not be re-elected.

It was decided in May we couldn't unbind the delegates this time. Leave it alone.

Clair Ellis | 9:07 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Here is the relevant text from the GOP Bylaws: "On the first ballot, the national delegation shall be bound to vote for the candidate who has received the most votes in the Republican Presidential Primary, but the delegation shall not be bound on any subsequent ballots."

The effect of that sentence depends on the meaning of the word "candidate." Is it inclusive of all those who were candidates at the time of the Primary or is it only those who are candidates "on the first ballot" at the convention? That is a legitimate question. Romney was a primary election candidate but is not a convention candidate, since he has withdrawn.

It can be argued that the tense of the verb "has received" places the question of candidacy at the time of the convention, not the primary. If it were written, "had received," the candidacy would be of the time of the primary, not the convention.

The State Central Committee is being asked to render an interpretation of that ambiguity, which is its duty according to Roberts Rules of Order, page 570. The GOP takes its rules seriously, and the committee will do its duty.

Wow | 10:00 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Wow Mr. Guymon. You've accomplished the impossible. By comparison, you have actually made Stan Lockhart appear the reasonable and rational in an article.

Get me out of the GOP | 10:12 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I had to sign up as a republican to vote for Romney in the primary. I want my vote to count for Romney, not to go to Mr. War-Lover McCain. At least I had the great pleasure to use that republican designation to vote AGAINST Chris Cannon and Mark Walker. Sweet.

Thanks Clair! | 10:15 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Clair, I'm a delegate and Legislative Chair in a distant county from your own, but your explanations are really very helpful. You manage to get to the heart of issues quickly and understandably. You probably don't convince any of those directly in opposition to what you're saying, but to any outside observers - you're spot on.

Kurtis Constantine | 11:40 a.m. Aug. 12, 2008

So I guess the fact that the Delegates boo'd Mr Lockhart at the state convention when he requested additional time to argue his case doesn't matter.

I guess the fact that the delegates indefinitely tabled (aka: defeted) this at convention doesn't matter.

Lockhart may be able to creatively bend the rules to make himself look good to the RNC, but it won't come without consequences. He's falling on his political sword to do it.

Rob Alexander | 12:17 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Re: Clair Ellis

FEC information indicates Romney is still technically a presidential candidate.

Also, at Romney's Web site, clicking the "Continue" link will take you to his campaign Web site, which is still titled "Mitt Romney for President" and is still functional and informational.

It appears that the situation of the winner of the presidential primary suspending his campaign prior to the national convention was not contemplated in the party governing documents. However, the overwhelming voice of the Republican voters at the presidential primary and delegates at the state convention has been heard for this year on the issue.

Rob Alexander
REPUBLican State Delegate, Salt Lake County
REPUBLican Candidate for State Representative
Utah Legislative District 35

Dave | 12:48 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

It's very clear from my reading of Clair's comment that the delegates should vote for McCain. Since Mitt dropped out, he is no longer a candidate. McCain is now the "candidate who has received the most votes in the Republican Presidential Primary".

courthousesnitch | 1:05 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

What ever happened to common sense. Mitt dropped out of the race. Get over it Utah. Maybe even, shall I dare say it - MoveON!

The realty behind this is not people wanting to vote for Mitt, they are creating conflict and confusion so people like the above mentioned Ridgeway and Alexander can vote for their favorite son which is Ron Paul. What a waste of time.

Kevin | 3:47 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Clair's argument hinges on whether or not Mitt Romney has "withdraw" as a candidate. Mitt "suspended his campaign" which means that he could resume it at some future time. Whether it is likely that he will resume it or not he continues as a candidate. He has not withdrawn.
The Republican Party's own rules (which they cannot legally change a this time) prevent them from doing anything but what they say.

Tai H. | 4:39 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

If you voted for either Mitt Romney or John McCain, than you are a liberal, and your delegate is the same anyways.

If you voted for Mike Huckabee or Fred Thompson, you cannot be blamed for this debacle of liberal leaning.

Clair Ellis | 7:23 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

The RNC rules, not the candidates themselves, define who is a candidate for the national convention voting:

40(b) "Each candidate for nomination for President of the United States and Vice President of the United States shall demonstrate the support of a majority of the delegates from each of five (5) or more states, severally, prior to the presentation of the name of that candidate for nomination."

Mitt Romney has a majority of delegates in only 4 states - MA, MT, UT and WY. As of now, he doesn't qualify for nomination at the convention. Of those who do qualify (only McCain and Huckabee) McCain got more votes in the Utah primary.

This could change by convention time, if Romney decides to pursue his candidacy again, but that seems unlikely.

Personally, I would like to see Utah's GOP delegates be able to vote for Romney, or be unbound to vote their own choice, but the party Bylaws may not allow it.

Don Guymon | 8:39 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Clair,

It seems like you are on both sides of this issue, please clarify.

You state, "Personally, I would like to see Utah's GOP delegates be able to vote for Romney, or be unbound to vote their own choice, but the party Bylaws may not allow it."

What do the party bylaws allow?

Glenda | 9:04 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I still want Mitt.

Clair Ellis | 9:09 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Hi Don. I'm trying to read and present the Bylaws objectively, as a member of the party's Constitution/Bylaws Committee. I think there is some ambiguity in the wording, and that the SCC is empowered under Roberts Rules (p. 570) to resolve that ambiguity until the Bylaws can be amended in due course. My impression right now is that the delegates are bound to vote for McCain, but I plan to listen to the debate at the meeting and then vote.

(With apologies to everyone else for this boring stuff, but that's what we rules guys do.)

Mark Towner | 11:00 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Why do this? McCain will have the number he needs for the nomination long before they ever get to Utah's call from the floor. They should just let it go and leave it alone. It won't change the outcome of the nomination, so why all the fuss?

Glenda | 11:40 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

I wonder if McCain really won. Where are his supporters when it comes to coughing up money for his campaign? I watched the GOP stomp Mitt off the ticket. I'm sure they ran just for that purpose. I witnessed a conspiracy unfold as I took up blogging. To find a story I would watch TV all day and night. I saw things going on that not too many noticed. I watched the stock market, Congress debates, the weather, and the race. If the Sitting President and vice president were impeached then why not the in-coming president that was like Bush be stopped? An attack on Gen. Patraeus; the with holding financial support for our troops and instead sporting illegals; paying tyrants for oil and stopping us from drilling oil on our own soil. I watched a conspiracy to disarm America being played out, but I don't think too many voters were fooled. Who got any more support than Romney? I'm not convinced that McCain did. I'm not saying that McCain was trying to disarm America. I think he was playing into tyrants hands like so many others were doing.

Ronald H Levine | 11:46 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008

Republ I CAN or CAN Ignore?

The Republican Party CAN Ignore their caucus elected delegates, their Utah Republican Party platform, constitution and bylaws, national rules, Republican voters of Utah and even reality! BUT, the voters will be ignoring our Republican Party and our Presidential and Congressional candidates will lose BECAUSE they represent the small minority of Stan Lockhart and their other willing power players willing to defy all of the above.
McCain won by a very small minority. The majority of Republicans voted for other than McCain.
"I'm proud and humbled to accept the Republican nomination for president," -- McCain
That's a lie designed to mislead the unaware public to not understand the duty of their Republican National delegates to represent them with a Republican candidate choice that THEY would elect in our general election in November. Contact them!
Ron Paul would be a Republican Presidential candidate who CAN WIN! Defy all noted above and the results will be sweeping Democrat victories.
Stan Lockhart, Republ I CAN or CAN Ignore or can betray? After November, you will be remembered for your part in our Republican losses.

Ronald H Levine,
Loyal platform and principle Republican publicly calling for Stan Lockhart's resignation.

Don Guymon | 8:11 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008

Clair

you are saying that Utah's delegates are bound to McCain?

Don

Clair Ellis | 9:55 a.m. Aug. 15, 2008

I'm saying that, per the Bylaws, Utah's delegates are bound to a candidate. If Romney is a candidate at the time of the first ballot, they are bound to him. If he is not a candidate then, they are bound to the remaining candidate who got the most votes in our primary. I don't think we know yet if Romney will be a candidate at the convention or not. We'll find out.

Don, you are a national delegate. If Romney is not a candidate on the first round (in prison, hit by a train, disqualified, or whatever), will you follow the Bylaws and vote for the highest primary vote-getter among the remaining candidates?

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