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LDS leader's '07 address still causing controversy

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Former Church Leader Opines | 12:35 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
As a former LDS church leader, I want to say that in my opinion, what Sister Beck taught is correct church doctrine. If the leading brethren ever give subsequent talks to clarify what she taught, I'll follow that counsel. But for now, to avoid the fringes of the road to apostacy, I would counsel every women and man out their with a conflictive position to re-think their position, repent and hold to the iron rod of correct doctrine.
Doesn't matter | 12:39 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I think when there is any kind of instruction given by the church or any organization, the only people who take offense are the ones who feel guilty. Church leaders have always encouraged women to get an education and have skills that can provide for their family if necessary. No one said motherhood was easy or that we should enjoy every minute of it, but it is the single most important job of all mankind because we are raising the next generation. What happened to the Nephites in the Book of Mormon? Their fathers taught them the gospel and slowly down the line people fell away and had their own opinion about things instead of taking counsel from their great leaders. Eventually they were all destroyed. Aren't you people just a little bit nervous about going against the counsel given by our church leaders? I would be. One more thing, there was a talk given awhile ago about being offended. If you're offended, that's your problem. Suck it up, and move on with life.
Re: unmet expectations | 12:39 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
How true that we compare ourselves at our worst with others at their best. I remember watching families file into church dressed in their Sunday best and thinking what kind of problems could they possibly have? Silly me, they probably had the same crazy Sunday morning I did, trying to find church shoes that hadn't seen the light of day since last Sunday, dawdling preschoolers or trying to get a teen up and going. They have insurance hassles, work stresses and kid craziness too. It just isn't obvious at Church. We need to remember that they probably don't look so great all the time. If anyone tries to convince you they are so organized and righteous they handle it all, they're not showing humility. I really am well organized-most of the time. I'm punctual-most of the time. I'm not a gourmet cook-most of the time. My kids have clean clothes-most of the time. I don't quilt-ever. I have low energy-most of the time. I sew my kids clothes-never. My home is clean-usually, immactulate-rarely. Food storage yes, home bottled-no. The only perfection I can claim is never failing to write a weekly letter to sons on missions.
Comments continue below
Wyo Reader | 1:22 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I think the only ones who are offended by this talk live in Utah! Everyone I've talked to from Indiana to Wyoming and several places in between are completely unaware of this controversy. It's just another Utah Mormon thing that the rest of the sisters in the church just don't get. I was a life long Utah Mormon until 3 1/2 years ago when my eyes were opened when I moved to Wyoming. Pull it together Utah Sisters and realize the church nor the Relief Society revolve around you. I am a Relief Society President and spoke of this controversy on Sunday and they all looked at me like I was from another planet! The sisters in my ward took this talk to heart. I loved the talk and it gave me reasons to look at my own life and see if there is room for improvement and guess what! There is! I'm not perfect and if I'm not willing to change and be better in many aspects of my life in being a better person, wife, mother, daughter & sister than there is a problem. "Doesn't Matter" I could not agree with you more!
sarah | 1:26 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I think that motherhood and helping others raise children into wonderful people and leaders is one of the most important roles to have and it isn't looked down upon.In the end i think eternal perspective is more important to god than a CEO position.
Anonymous | 1:42 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I agree with those who think Sister Beck's talk was inappropriate at times. I was even inclined to support the "What Women Know" movement. However, the way Camille Aagard was treated was horrible. Because of it, the movement has lost a lot of respect in my eyes.
Great talk | 1:47 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Sis. Beck should give another talk like that. It was a defining talk that brought into focus values that have been lost for decades.
Beck is right | 1:53 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Whats wrong with a different opinion other than feminism? Maybe those mothering values really make a female feel like a woman! As far as I can tell, feminism is an effort to make women feel like men. It certainly makes a calculated effort to degrade men.
Allison Murray | 2:01 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Maybe we should take the advice given in the scriptures, if you lack wisdom, ask of God. We are all striving to become like our Heavenly FATHER and Heavenly MOTHER. If we listen to our church leaders with the spirit, we will understand how each word applies to us personally rather than to take offense. Use the words of our spiritual leaders to help us become better people rather than rip each other down. Instead of making a website about how horrible the talk is, make a website that helps give ideas and support on how to be better mothers and better people.
Andy N | 2:07 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Wow, the "What Women Know" movement has really helped to mobilize the Sisters of this Church. What I am seeing is a large number of Sisters going back, rereading the talk, and recognizing it as a powerful message of courage and purpose.

You just can't buy advertising like that.

Thank you "What Women Know," you've done more to strengthen the resolve of these Sisters and at the same time provided them with a list of individuals they should be mindful of.

Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.

Anonymous | 2:39 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Having just read the talk and read the �what women know� web page. It is clear to me who knows what. And it is clear that there is a reason that only hundreds of people have joined with this group compared to millions. Sister Beck�s talk is in perfect unison with past talks and teachings, while even a quick review of the �what women know� site will expose great uneasiness. �what women know� distorts the meaning of Sister Beck�s talk, the church�s stand on family and even fundamental teachings in the Book of Mormon. Women who know will have nothing to do with �what women know�.
Mary Admires Sis. Beck | 2:53 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I am a working, accomplished woman in the LDS church, I am a RS President for nearly 4 years, I work full time and I have 5 children and I've even served in the legislature. For those 500 women who claim to have risked it all, locked themselves in their bathrooms sobbing, etc... Get a life and get over your bad self! Too many people don't need much of an excuse to rebell, back bite and tear down their leaders (it's called murmuring, an ancient concept and nothing new). It is a choice to be happy and a choice to be a faithful member of this church and I'm happy to make them mine.
Don't limit yourselves | 3:01 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I think the Sunstone Symposium is causing the controversy, not the address as is the claim. The address has inspired much good in women. Has any good come from these symposiums? The symposium argues that by praising motherhood, we are somehow saying that women who aren't mothers, are not great women. How do you read that into it?

The message is that all women can be great & have potential to be great mothers; if anything, men are excluded.

The LDS church in no way diminishes womanhood by professing the sacred divinity of mothers. How does success in the home take away from any accomplishments outside of the home? It doesn't! Defining any noble endeavors of motherhood does not diminish from what a woman can do, but rather adds to it? I am disgusted with the "What Women Know" movement, because you are the ones limiting what you can know and do. Shame on you for discrediting yourselves.

My mother has as many accomplishments outside the home as she does in the home, but she will tell you her greatest accomplishment is raising righteous children who contribute to society (And even more importantly raise valiant families of their own).
STOP | 3:14 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
This is extremely ridiculous. Whats the point?
Apostacy | 3:20 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
As most of us either know, heard or experienced, Satan is very clever in his deceptions. He'll mix a little truth with some lies. He'll supress truth but at the same time blend it with democracy. He'll espouse agency, freedom and self-expression but at the same time affiliate them with sin. He's doing the same thing in connection with movements like "What Women Know" and "Sunstone". Combining some truth with a lot of error....and maybe....as we've seen in this forum, activly deceiving some of the very elect.
Phoenix | 3:29 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I like symposia, they are a great place to learn new things and get fresh perspectives, but I never go to the Sunstone Symposium because I have never seen a report on their meetings that included the descriptives "fair" or "balanced discussion" or "sought to present all sides." I understand doubt and disagreement, I have had many in my 40 years of LDS Church membership, but I have never had a problem finding answers, and no Church leader has ever resorted to polemics, insults or degrading the experience of others in answering my questions. It appears to me that all Sunstone has is the disgruntled, the disaffected and those who think they can change what some of us accept as Divine doctrine by pushing their view on the rest of us until we are no longer willing to stand firm. Ain't gonna happen, bubba.
Hate is not a family value. | 3:33 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I grew up in a single parent family. My mother worked part-time while trying to raise four children. Many fellow Sisters in the ward looked down on her for being single. (My father died at a young age.) The church leaders placed so much guilt and blame on her for not allowing a man to join her so she could stay at home as they had intended. Even us kids were treated as second class members because we did not have the Ideal Family Dynamic. We were outcasts partially fueled by the local members but greatly encouraged by the Bishop and Stake President. I wish more women/mothers would voice their concern over the persecution that transpires within the the church. I am so thankful that I no longer feel the oppression and judgement of a flawed patriarchy.
Build a bridge | 3:40 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
And get over it!!
Bit cold in Auckland today!!
luvsisbeck! | 3:42 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
jrccmsmom | 4:44 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

**People, people, people... Did you listen to the same talk that I did? Nowhere did it say that we were just supposed to become the best homemakers in the world. There were so many great and wonderful things in that talk - she talked about standing strong and immovable in faith. She asked all LDS women to have a current temple recommend, pray every day, follow the Holy Ghost, study the scriptures. She talked of standing strong and immovable in family and DEFENDING the family. She talked of standing strong and immovable in relief which means to lighten up and lift others. Again, I say, people, people, people, were you even listening to the same talk I heard and have reread several times?**

Thanks, that was beautifully said!
Women RULE! | 3:48 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Queen Elizabeth ruled England and she was a women. She did a better job at it than her dad, Henry IIIV, the looser king.
Sustaining hands... | 3:48 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
How thankful my wife and I are for the inspired words of Sister Beck's talk. The furor behind Sunstone's continuing attempt to cast dispersions upon the Church this time around caused my wife and I to go back and read the talk together. Such loving encouragement! All the negative talk here and on the Sunstoned panel make me question whether they listened or read the same talk I did. Where is the error in striving to be the Mother that makes such an impact on her children that their faith is strong enough for them to withstand all the evils and temptations in this day?

Are we perfect? No, but we're striving to go in that direction. We're both working parents who come home together and strive to teach and raise our kids together as best we can. We pray that our daughters and our son learn early to always strive to be better; strive to be good; strive to do good toward others; above all strive to be as Jesus.
luvsisbeck! | 3:51 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
**RE: Just Wondering

...but the doctrine is not on a menu. We can't just pick the parts we like and leave the rest, as you can with other religions. If it's true, and there's a living prophet, then he speaks for God and there's really no room for quibbling.

And I haven't heard the General Authorities taking back anything that was said by Sis. Beck, so I take that as being affirmed and condoned by our prophet.

There just isn't any room for argument in a voluntary membership organization that claims leadership directly from God. Either it's true and you follow it, or it's not and you don't.**

Amen, what else is there to say??
Anonymous | 3:58 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
**Lucy | 5:25 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008
If men were to get as upset by the Brethren beating on them about pornography, the women of the church would be up in arms. If you're upset by Sis. Beck's talk, maybe it's time to ask yourself why. Ladies, cowboy up!**

LOL!! And so true!
Wyo Reader | 4:30 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Oh I love this page of comments! You are all spot on! Being from Wyoming I love the "Cowboy Up" comment! Very appropriate! Let's put this puppy to bed and live the gospel ladies! Thanks Sis Beck!
Mrs. | 5:19 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I loved Sister Beck's talk! I think people are taking offense for no reason. I found her talk motivational and inspiring. For those of us who are mothers, it is nice to have some validation that what we are doing is right and good. I am going to continue trying to be the best homemaker I can be, no matter what our liberal church feminists say. Go Sister Beck!
It's about the children | 5:50 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Thank you, Sis. Beck, for your faith, courage, and inspired instruction. If the men would do better at encouraging their wives to take seriously what you said, our children would be stronger. It's really more about the children's success, not our own.
CindyAcre | 6:26 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Sister Beck's talk was a reaffirmation of the importance of "mothering" in a family - all types of families. Motherhood is not a second class status thing - as feminists would like to paint it as. Women have so much opportunity in the world today - we are to get as much education as we can, and use that education and our very real God-given talents and gifts to help our families, neighborhoods, country, and each other. Whether you want to put a $dollar value on it or not, the experience of losing one's self in "going forth to serve" IS what is important, not the "box" or "podium" or whatever the experience is put in. We gotta look outside the box, sisters.
Linda | 6:58 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
This just goes to show that you can be a mother and run the world too. Men seem to have a hard time with both.
Tamara | 7:06 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
As soon as they ask "are you a stay-at-home-mom" in the Temple Recommend interview, then and ONLY then will we know it is a "doctrine of salvation".

Otherwise, it is just Sister Beck's opinion. There is nothing wrong with NOT wanting children. There is nothing wrong with NOT wanting to be a homemaker. There is nothing wrong with "knowing" but not agreeing with Sister Beck.
incorrect traditions | 7:27 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I think much of the guilt Mormon women feel is from their own mothers. My mother would tsk-tsk about a neighbors gray bra straps. She may have had the whitest laundry in town, but left a whole lot to be desired as a mom. As for me and my house, we'll use hot water, detergent, oxiclean and call it good. I have no desire to scrub my bra straps to prove my superiority to someone else. I know sisters who feel they have to protect their reputation as being the best seamstress or housekeeper, or cookie maker etc. Please do us all a favor and stop. Understand there are some things we should excel in such as keeping the commandments and honoring our covenants. Otherwise recognize when "good enough" will do. Vacuuming the entire house twice a day or refusing to buy Oreos or clothes from the mall will not get you into the celestial kingdom. It may however, grant you entrance to the loony bin. I love a clean house as much as the next mom, and it's quite often that way. It's just that sometimes other things take priority.
good, better, best | 7:44 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
It's good to have a clean house. It's better to sacrifice vacuuming to render compassionate service. It's best to have a posterity who will rise up and call us blessed.
Anonymous | 7:49 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
I can't believe we're still going over this. People, live your life. Whatever you do to use your talents, help others and is enjoyable, DO IT. No one is stopping you or thinking bad of you. Cheeeee!
Janet | 9:55 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
The way Camille was treated after the session was horrible, but nobody from the panel treated her horribly or asserted the ludicrious things she assumed we meant (SAHMs are bad, everyone needs a PHD). Most of us on the panel are SAHMs, even though we've got pesky letters after our names. Please, for the love of pete, stop assuming the DN article accurately represented the panel. It didn't. And CAmille A. didn't either--she was less courageous than flat-out rude, though admittedly not half as rude as the person who called her a slave.
Marg Toscano | 10:07 p.m. Aug. 12, 2008
Don't you pray to Mary, or Ruth or Mother?
mandy | 12:42 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
to the priesthood men who think they shouldn't have to do women's work because they've worked all day-please reconsider. I'll bet most of you have some sort of support helping you do your job-secretaries, assistants, co-workers, employees, subcontractors etc. Why then am I expected to work far more hours than you and then be entitled only to the help a five year old can provide, just because I'm at home during the day unless I'm chauferring kids, or buying groceries or visiting the doctor or doing Church service. Of course, if your wife is home all day and spends all her time watching TV or pursuing hobbies, recreational shopping or socializing, then you shouldn't have to work hard and then come home and be responsible for running the house. Just give me a few minutes of help every day and I will be much happier. You're also setting a wonderful example to your children of what a real man does.
I agree | 1:14 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
that it seems that people are looking for ways to be offended here--on both sides.

I listened to Sis. Beck's talk and didn't think that it was particularly controversial or offensive. And I went to the "What Women Know" website and didn't see anything there other than good common sense. I don't think anyone risks their church membership by signing their name.

I really think both sides are saying the same thing. For some reason, they seem obsessed with criticizing the way the other person says it. That's not Sis. Beck's fault. That's something going much, much deeper and has to do with another of the favorite pastimes of church members: converting our own personal approaches to life into the doctrines of salvation. I'm LDS and I believe that there are bedrock principles...but not everything I do qualifies.
Anonymous | 1:30 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
***Anonymous | 7:21 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008
As an educated, intellectual, stay-at-home AND work-from-home mother, I was completely inspired by Sister Beck's talk. For me it was a clarion call to stand a little taller, and to reflect on the enormous importance of nurturing and teaching my children in love and righteousness. My children cover the spectrum of mental ability and each presents unique challenges, but regardless, each child needs to be spiritually grounded. I find I am able to meet their spiritual needs when I am spiritually fed myself; likewise I can meet their intellectual needs when my mind is intellectually stimulated. There is nothing wrong with taking time to nuture myself as an individual, and I think much of the controversy comes down to the erroneous assumption that in motherhood we must all run faster than we have the strength, or until we have no more strength. "Women who know" are swift to tap into that higher power, that unfailing source of strength, and find that the seemingly impossible tasks of motherhood are not so impossible after all.***

Ahh, beautifully stated!
luvsisbeck! | 1:43 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
***Anonymous | 8:34 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008
Sister Becks Talk was a landmark talk. One of the best talks ever given to women. It was a companion talk to Elder Oaks talk of that same conference, Good, Better, Best. He also mentioned some points about todays families that some might have taken to be hard. Those of you who are a part of this website and are participating in criticizing your leaders...do you realize what you are doing? You are not a law unto yourselves. Say what you want, do what you want, but the Lord is in charge and His leaders will say and must say what He commands. If you have a problem don't point your finger at His servants, look in the mirror.
Sister Beck is the leader for these times. EVerything she said was right on the mark.***

Oh, so true! I so appreciate your comments & many others here who truly understand & 'know' what Sis. Beck's words meant & that her words were nothing short of inspired!
concerned | 1:54 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
These comments are disturbing to me. The talk I heard doesn't seem to fit with some of the comments I've been reading. I didn't feel she was asking us as women to do or be anything less than the best we can be. There is no need to compare ourselves everyone has different circumstances. But whatever our circumstance whether married with children, married but childless, or single with children, or a single woman , the responsibility to be a mother is a role we all should be honored to hold. There are so many children in our world in need of a loving caring mother to guide them through the mazes of growing up. I have been a foster parent and have seen the turmoil that these children live with because they didn't have someone to be a mother to them. That the attachment and trust cycle has been broken and these children struggle with every relationship after that if there isn't some intervention to reverse the damage.So instead of worrying about being offended or not don't you think we should be thinking of the children and forget ourselves in doing so just as Christ would.?
awesomeron | 3:55 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
The choice between the Doctrines of The Church and the ever changing Doctrines of what Man Wants which for Women depends at lot on where they where born and what faith group they where born into. I ranges from almost total lack of social filters and standards to complete subjugation with burkas and long dresses and in one or two places the women have to have permission to work and the single ones have to have male guardians. And all steps in between. The Church just asks for a few standards, basic morals, that make for a better life for all concerned. The LDS are not great embracers of the wounded but I have seen great, great strides made in the last 20 years. LDS Social Services can handle just about anything. From adopting Kids to Addiction Programs. So the choice between following man or following God is simple, "as for me and my house we will serve the lord." My family is somewhat different and there has been some resistance, but also great love expressed. Choice to hang with them that choice you. Your friends will be your friends regardless. God loves you always.
Reality | 8:02 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
I think if every woman on this board would just spend more time in the kitchen and less time getting "all upset" about this talk, everyone would be better off.
lds0024 | 8:28 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
to awesomeron,

The LDS Church's doctrines are the ones that are "ever-changing".

In the early 1900's, women in the Church were required to be homemakers. Even if their husband was killed or incapacitated, they were not to go out and work, but instead stay at home and take care of the children and be provided for out of the Church storehouse.

Read D&C 83. Why isn't the Church following its own revelations?

During the 70's and 80's, Church leaders changed, and widows or women whose husbands could not provide were "allowed" to work outside the home. But President Benson taught against women working outside the home for any other reasons.

Today, women work outside the home with their heads held high. They are no longer marginalized and ostracized... until Sister Beck's retrograde talk! Now the comment section here is evidence of a subtle hostility and condemnation of women who work and have careers. All the self-righteous SAHMs have always had this hidden hostility against "career women". Sister Beck's talk just put it in grand relief for everyone to see!
Camille P. | 8:41 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
I remember listening to Sis. Beck's talk. And I do agree with her. And as a former lds church leader commented earlier, I will not disagree until another in authority stands up to correct her. And also as I have seen and to those I have talked to, this seems to be a "Utah Thing". I stay home with my children and I raise and nurture them. My husband works. It's our personal choice. We just don;t want a day care raising our kids. I did work outside the home for a couple of yrs. but our home didn't run smoothly. We have discovered that for us - it's better for me to be at home.
Warren Pugh | 9:26 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Anyone who is or has been LDS or not understands how delicate this subject is. I recall a letter received from an unwed Japanese convert who grieved because her understanding was that the afterlife for her did not provide full celestial rewards. Neither was she to be consoled by any rhetoric suggesting that her understanding was misguided.

However, this has been going on for tooooo many years, and the bretheren must put an end to the grief and srrife. It is not healthy for the church
nor is it Christlike.
its time | 9:38 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Wheat and Tares
Denise | 9:41 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Statements such as "Faithful daughters of god desire children" (quote from the talk) are the main reason I initially left the church. I don't want children. I have never wanted children and would be miserably unhappy in the "ideal" life that Sister Beck portrays. There are many other women out there like me, and some give into what they think god wants for them and suffer for it. Their children likely suffer as well.
Pressuring every woman into one limited role is unhealthy for women, as well as men and children.
JB | 9:41 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Sister Beck's talk was spot on and was exactly what needed to be said. The truth of it was more than evident as she spoke. IMO, anybody taking offense is either 1) misinterpreting what was ACTUALLY said, or 2) looking for an excuse to push a feminist movement in the LDS church.

Obviously there are lots of understandable exceptions to the standard roles of men & women. Most reasonable members get that. That's not the issue she was addressing. I am condifent that every church leader in SLC understands these exceptions.

The most important thing is that we are trying to do the best we can - keeping in line with the principles of the gospel - based on the situation we are in.

I wish she would get up in General Conference in October and give the same talk, verbatim.
chill out !!! | 9:59 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Holy cow, women need to chill out. Sis Beck is called by the Lord to speak to the women of the church. I wonder how many of those who were offended by Sis Beck's talk would also be offended if the Lord him self were giving the address? Probably the same number! The Church understands the need for many women to work in the world today and doesn't condemn them. Economic conditions today force many mothers into the work force and the vast majority of those women would rather be at home than punching the time clock. For those women who feel that children are a burden and would rather be at Gold's Gym primping their bodies I am sorry for you and your kids.
What's the big deal | 10:26 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Just another point that the LDS people are frauds and liars to themselves. The question is, "WHat do you want" DO you want the church to conform to your personal needs? What are you looking for? I live in a great ward in San Clemente, CA and many of the women I associate with had no beefs with Sister Beck's talk. YOu need to figure out your testimony before you go siging some wannabee petition. Imagine if our husbands came home after priesthood and went ahead to start debating the doctrine. Then everytime I hear someone bare their lifeamony on fast sunday I am just going to walk out.
Lori | 10:32 a.m. Aug. 13, 2008
Sister Beck's talk wasn't meant to "enslave" women and lessen a woman's role in the world today, rather it was to strengthen and build those women who have "chosen" to be mothers. We live in a world where many women, LDS and non-LDS alike, look at their role as a mother as secondary, as confining, and nongratifying. Sister Beck's talk was designed to let women know that when you take on the responsibility of having children there is more to it than just giving birth, it is taking that role very seriously to nurture, teach, and provide for their wellbeing. I know too many "mothers" today that have chosen to have children, but then expect for the daycare provider, the school teacher, the neighbor, the friends, the television, the computer, etc. do the job of raising, entertaing, and counseling those children while the mother tries to find her gratification by working, going to the gym, going to the salon or day spa, etc. It is all about balance...having those extra activities that bring that kind of happiness but also taking care of those that we have brought into the world and have stewardship over.

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