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LDS leader's '07 address still causing controversy

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James Econe | 5:20 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

This address was a typical E. Benson, M. Peterson, B. Cckonkie talk expressing the Church leader's views but
without them having to admit to ii and the flock is left with same question of "Is this doctrine or not?"

ramper | 5:30 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Re: Peter
Your comment that women need to understand and accept their role sounds like the Taliban. Maybe understanding and accepting their mission in life would be more appropriate. Which, by the way, applies to men also. We all need to recognize our gifts and use them where ever the spirit leads. Personal revelation is just that. There are too many who judge others by their own perceptions. Too many who like to hold mirrors up to others instead of turning it around to see their own imperfect reflection.

Shawnie | 5:38 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

It takes very little character to be offended, to be mal-content and noisy and find fault with someone's words. That is what our culture has gravitated to. It takes a lot more character to stand up for an ideal that is worthwhile and not in keeping with the conventional thinking of the day. You think they didn't "know" there would be a backlash? I wish I had a mother like the one described in Sister Beck's talk. It would have made a world of difference.

Comments continue below

Steve | 7:36 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Lots of rebellious sisters out there, eh?

Adawg | 8:05 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

I was bouyed up to read the conviction of so many to the principles of the Proclamation while reading the comments. My wife and I both majored in Family Science at college and read much literature that showed the affects of mothers not being there physically or emotionally for their children. Personally I feel that parents who aren't willing to sacrifice their personal ambition for a while to raise their children probably shouldn't have them. There is a tradeoff between the what is best for the children and a parent's selfish desires. I have realized that I can't pursue some ambitions because I have children. That sacrifice makes me love them so much more. Women who are willing to put off their ambitions for a time to be there for their children are my greatest heros. "Greater love hath no man than this that he layeth down his life for his friends" Women who are willing to give up a part of their life to raise their children have that greatest love as they are laying down their own intersts, career pursuits, and their lives, as child rearing is so encompassing, to bless others and they will be rewarded.

Me too | 8:06 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

On occassion I hear my local authorities or the General authorities speak, and I get upset because they clearly don't understand my situation.

After I take a step back, reflect, and evaluate myself, I ALWAYS find that I am being prideful and in need of making corrections in my life.

ellen | 8:45 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

In my experience, women who needed to work outside the home to provide the basics for their family have always been blessed to have great kids. These Moms are supporting their families, not a lifestyle. Their kids are their number one priority regardless of their work schedule and the Lord blesses them accordingly.

Svoboda | 8:47 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

When we lived in Texas my daughter's 9th grade teacher asked her class - who did they want to be when they grew up. My daughter said, "I want to be a mother and stay home, raising my children, and supporting my husband." She was the only girl in the class who wanted that. So who is raising the next generation? Seven dollar an hour people at daycares?

I did "leave" | 9:01 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

But I sometimes look at blogs to catch the latest things being said. It's interesting and sad that some in your church will say "this is from "God" if you don't like it...leave". Oh really? Does that sound like "God" to you? I have found peace in another area and in no one religion, but with the good that many religions have. I feel that I have "God" with me. I don't feel that with your church. Stop judging people.

arc | 9:02 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Sister Beck's talk should have been given at the General RS Conference. If it had, there would have been less problems. It wasn't. It was given where husbands, wives, children, singles, etc. were listening. In many cases with extended family.

I listened to the talk at home when it was given. I left the room and went to listen to it somewhere else.

I was not going to listen to it in the same room as my wife and visiting mother-in-law.

I have been listening to GC talks for decades. I have never felt like this before or since. The Proclamation on the Family has comments that discuss individual situations. Perhaps Sister Beck can learn that from reading it again.

Thankful husband and father | 9:13 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

From my "narrowminded" perspective and limited experience (1 wife) I applaud my spouse for her choice to be a mother. She could have been a great many things and successful at them all. But, she chose to be a stay at home mother. As I watch the skill and love she has as she raises our children I marvel at her success. Of all my assets my children are the greatest. Her long hours of devotion to increase their chances of making good decisions in a wicked world please me greatly.

A friend of mine in her early 20's had a record deal that would have ensured wealth and fame due to her amazing talents. She "chose" to walk away from it to become a mother. She knew that pursuing either wealth or fame would have greatly compromised her ability to be the wife and mother that she wanted to be. I applaud her. I admire her. The world could learn great lessons from her.

Sister Beck was simply trying to provide council along those lines. Motherhood is one of the greatest privileges available to mankind.

I applaud all women who get that fact and do their best!

becks | 9:33 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

I am saddened to see the response to Sister Becks' talk. Her words were those of comfort and inspiration to me. She has been called by a prophet of God to help lead the women of the earth and particularly those of the church. The doctrines of the LDS church are not up for debate by it's members. One cannot accept some of the church's teachings and not others. Sister Beck didn't teach anything new; everything she said has been taught by other church leaders throughout history. I think sometimes we're looking for a fight and a validation to the things that we do. When ever we are offended by the teachings of the leaders of our church, we need to take a step back and determine why. If we feel good about our decisions then there is no need for offense. But for those of you who are members of the Church...support your leaders! Their job is not easy and they are required by God to say the things that He would have them say. Take your issues up with Him, not Sister Beck!

Brainless Intellectuals | 9:39 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

The problem with these types of discussions is that they are based on the one real issue that disturbs the self appointed intellectual -- they feel they are being ignored. To those who think of themselves as so very bright, having the ability to disect every mortal thought and then offer up their own "more enlightened" view, I can only ask, where is your humility. He/she who is truely wise bridles their tongue because they are wise enough to recognize their mortal intellectual limitations. (sent by remote - please excuse typos).

It's lots more than 500 | 9:42 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Do you know how many people there are in the world? Only a small number of people think/or will think like you. Thanks for helping those you can, but please remember you have also alienated people when you believe everyone needs to think like you.

Confused | 9:55 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Anyone who bases their "value" and "self-worth" on what they do in the work place misses the point of why we are here, regardless of whether you are a man or a woman. This conversation always boggles my mind. Although I work at a prominent law firm in NYC, I do not view myself as a lawyer. That does not define me or give me a sense of self worth. It is simply what I do to fulfill my God-given role as a father and the provider for my family. I am a member of the church, a husband and a father first. Everything else I do is ancillary to that and intended to bolster my ability to fulfill these God-given callings and my present and future church callings.

Allison | 9:57 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Thank you Sister Beck, for your powerful voice for what is RIGHT. If you follow what sister Beck stated, your lives will be happy. Period. If you don't, you will look back with unhappiness and sadness.

Archived video | 9:58 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

I just listened to the archived video to see what the fuss is about...I have to say, I thought that was a fantastic talk. There have been some great remarks supporting this talk so I don't have much to add except I sustain Sister Beck.

PS What a jerk who called her a slave. Are you kidding me?! I hope he wasn't a member.

Lynette | 10:00 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Amen to "Bear Rug."

Sunstone--touch it and weep | 9:59 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Members (or partakers) of Sunstone WANT to be angry. All the time. Their power comes from fomenting anger and offence-their own and others. If there isn't currently something to be mad about, they'll re-hash something. There are a lot of members of the Church that have genuine grievances and righteous indignation. Those in Sunstone try to convince EVERYBODY who will listen to their vitriol that they should be LOUDLY grieved and offended. "Stirring up hearts" is their mission.

She that hath ears to hear... | 9:59 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Sister Beck is inspired as much as any other General Authority and we would do well to remember that.

Paula Cook | 10:01 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Corinthians 7; 34 There is difference also between a wife & a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body & in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, & that ye may attend upon the Lord without distraction. Those that don't have a job are also supposed to place more time on walking with the Lord, which includes children, but if your heart isn't to raise your children with love & understanding, then wouldn't it be better to allow those that can hold that position to raise your children & for you to get a job?

To BEAR RUG by Jacqui | 10:04 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Amen, sista (or brother)! I was going to write the same thing: this talk was to MOTHERS. And there are plenty of well-educated, intelligent, driven women (myself included) who CHOOSE to be MOTHERS. How absolutely insulting to be told you are a slave and you don't even know it (by being a mother). I have a few words for that person, but they are mostly four letter words, so I'll keep them to myself.

I, personally, cried throughout Sister Beck's talk (what, does that make me some kind of feminine wimp?). I felt totally validated that I was doing the right thing for MY family: raising MY OWN children. Not everyone can do it, but I can, and I was grateful for her words.

So lay off, all you feminist Nazis. Make your own decisions, pray about them and with your answer, move forward. It doesn't matter what anyone says to you then, does it? But be prepared if the answer is not "go to work," but instead "care for your own babies." Your answer may change at times in your life, but if it's "stay home," then bless the soul who chooses the vomit over the money.

From an LDS MAN @ 4:27 8/8 | 10:11 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Amen. This is about maturity. Make your own decisions, women. If they are right, it doesn't matter what anyone says.

Larry in Manti | 10:20 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

The great "sifting" is increasing and the malcontents surface with even greater fury.....those not willing to yield their hearts to the Lord and his marvelous plan look for worldly justification and human validation for what is lacking in spiritual guidance. They let go of the iron rod and succumb to those who mock from the great and spacious building. We see the prophecy of 1 Nephi chapter 8, and also chapter 11 being played out again and again in the world today....and evidenced by comments and blogs that ensue from the malcontents at presentations such as the SUnstone etc. Kudos to the many who are holding fast to the rod as evidenced by the many great comments made here. As for me, the Holy Ghost confirmed and carried Sister Becks words deep into the fiber of my soul just as it has on numerous other occasions including Sister Nadauld's amazing talk given several years prior. Hold to the rod....be worthy of and hold to the guidance of the spirit....not lulled away by the carnal mind. Yes the Lord's great sifting is hastening it's pace. For the pioneers....a physical trek...for us a spiritual trek...who will respond with commitment and endurance.?

Paul | 10:20 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

This story is not newsworthy. The Desertnews is trying to make something on nothing. I just reread Sister Beck's talk. It is inspirational and beautiful. My wife loves and values her time raising our six children. She graduated BYU and loved her job as a flight attendant when we got married. She joyfully quit her job to start a family. I love how my wife values the sciptures over material possessions and careers. She is a beautiful example to our four daughters and everyone she meets. Her flight attendant friends tried to talk her out of quiting by telling her a career, money, status, glamor were more important than children. These women looked forward to going home each night to their tiny dogs dressed in clothes, gay partner or lonely misery. Words can not describe the beauty and joy a family and children can bring in this life and the eternities. My wife knows there is an eternal influence and power in motherhood and nothing in selfishness.

It was a good talk for | 10:20 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

those it applied to. Unfortunately, there are mothers that would be sensitive to it because they possibly cannot spend enough time as they would probably like. This is due to financial obligations and is becoming more and more common. We need talks like this and also talks to inspire and help women who are struggling.

I just re-read Beck's talk | 10:22 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

What bothers me is the fact that Beck seems to cookie-cutter the sense of a woman's purpose in life.

Contrary to what Beck appears to think, WE ARE NOT ALL ALIKE. There are some women who happily bear numerous children and thoroughly enjoy staying home, house-keeping and caring for the children. Some women don't want, or can't have, children, and enjoy having a career. The largest number (like me) both want to bear and care for children AND pursue their careers. All are valid lifeways, and I support the right of each woman to choose the path she wishes to follow.

Beck implied that only the first of those three kufeats is valid and worthwhile. By her comments, she demeaned the hopes, desires and wishes of a large number of the people she is supposed to represent and, in the process, invalidated the women woho don't fit her perception of what a woman is supposed to be. That set my teeth on edge.

Sad.

Family | 10:34 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

It seems obvious why the Proclamation was important. The world is attacking families. Having a family may mean postponing some opportunities for some. That is a sad fact.

Of course it is hard not to be able to do what you know is the most important thing in life is. All that other stuff; careers, degrees, publications, hobbies, Church callings, whatever, is just there to facilitate something more important - or then to provide some uplifting experiences.

No argumentation changes the fact that parenthood is the most important project in our lives. Unlike marriage, parenthood only has a window of 15-20 years to really make a difference (often much less). Why not give it your best shot? That is what sis. Beck's talk was about.

Because, face it, your degrees and colleagues won't come visit you when you're 90 and can't get around anymore. Your kids will, if you gave them what they needed.

And notice: All this said without using the words "woman" or "man". It is equally true for both. Make your own application and quit kvetching.

To: 18 Year Old Mother | 10:43 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

You ROCK, Woman!! That is what motherhood is all about: doing, being, becoming, learning, sacrificing, creating, loving. Way to go!

My mom was a first-time mother at 20, with "only" two college years under her belt, yet she is one of the most intelligent women I know. Just because a woman becomes a mother at a young age doesn't mean she leaves her brain at the door of the hospital delivery room.

Hackbart | 10:43 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

We men get semi-annualy beat up for pornography, gambling, not doing our duties, mistreating our wives and children and whatever else we apparently need to hear...still going to church and trying to be better and I suspect that 99+ percent of the women in the church are even trying harder than that and without having to be called on the carpet. The church would be worthless without the ladies.

My choices | 10:52 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

I grew up with a stay at home mother who was the epitome of Mormon motherhood - great grandaughter of Utah pioneers, she baked bread, sewed, canned, did her genealogy, kept a clean house, taught Primary, Relief Society and homemaking classes, you name it she could do it. And plenty that a man could do too. I grew up wanting to be like her - I never wanted a career, couldn't think of career that would more fulfilling to ME than that of wife and mother.

I have been fortunate enough to marry a man who wanted me to do whatever would make me happy, and while we will never be rich (or upper middle class either), I've been lucky enough to be able to stay at home most of our marriage since our first child was born. I chose this - and I am supremely happy with my choice. I home school, I pursue hobbies, I work hard at keeping our expenses down and I do a lot that other people pay others to do - so I figure I contribute a lot financially as well. I pity the fool who calls me a slave or mindless idiot. :-)

John C. | 11:07 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

This is one of those clear examples of "God would do what I do if He just had all the information."

John Pack Lambert | 11:31 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

to bigjn,
You forget that not all of these 500 women are neccesarily in the church. Janice Allred is no longer a member, and is probably among the top ten most guilty people under the catagory "Evil Speaking of the Lord's anointed". She along with Lavina Anderson has formed an organization dedicated to exposing church leaders for committing "spiritual abuse" whatever in the world that is.
Margeret Toscano has also been excommunicated. So that is at least 20% of the presenters are not part of the 13 million plus members.

Re: SJ Bobkins | 11:44 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Yep...you were serious.

You clearly did not LISTEN to the message. Out of all that was presented you came away with men must wear white shirts??? Then you make the grand canyon sized leap and obnoxious overreaching comment that Sister Beck is on the road to becoming a "RS nazi" and refer to her as a "loose cannon"???

Sounds like you're on a road...

Canadiandy | 11:46 a.m. Aug. 9, 2008

A male supporter of this group called a mother who chose to stay home with her children a slave? Try saying that to my wife and she'll thump you through the window of your smartcar faster than one of these ladies can hyphenate their last name. Sounds like hypocrisy lies beneath.

Oh yeah, I checked out the list of signers on the site, the ones in my area are the same ones that complain about anything church leaders have to say. They don't have issues, they have the full subscription.

Laughed Until I Cried | 12:11 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

I just checked out the Sunstone Symposium. I at first thought it was a BYU thing, clearly not. I was then interested in the serious issues they address so I visited their website. When I came across their earth shattering article, "You can be a Mormon and a nudist" (I am not making this up)I realized the whole thing is just a joke. The sad thing is there are 500 of the arrogant left who do not see the joke.

Forget "You Can be a Mormon and a Nudist." How about "You Can be a Mormon and a Wierdo." These fringe members seem to suffer from delusions of normalcy.

Still laughing.

Canadiandy

ramper | 12:14 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

re: Brainless Intellectuals

You may or may not be right. But, this site, like others, is for comments. People have a right to comment. It is something people do every day in many ways. Sites like this can enlighten, or anger, or make you laugh. I don't think that is a bad thing. Freedom of expression is fine. So is freedom to agree or disagree. I would never consider myself an intellectual. I am just getting use to being human. Besides, who could qualify as an intellectual? The best definition I ever heard was: "Anyone who can listen to the William Tell overture and NOT think of the Lone Ranger."

Confused | 12:32 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

OK I'm a man and as such perhaps I do not understand what this is all about. Ladies, just do what you want to. Ultimately this is all up to you not Sister Beck, not the church hierarchy, not anyone but you. If you do not want to feel undervalued then don't feel that way. Pursue a career or be a stay at home Mom. But decide for yourself and don't wait for someone to tell you it is OK. The church is based on revelation. Go get your own. All this whining only reinforces the notion that women cannot think for themselves. You do not need someone else to tell you what to do or validate your decision. If you want your own life then take it. Don't ask someone to give it to you.

What?!?! | 12:39 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Quote: "Margaret Toscano, a professor of classics at the University of Utah, said.....the backlash reflects the idea that it's more acceptable to question women's authority than men's in the church."

What?!

How in the world did Margaret Toscano ever get that?

I've heard Sis. Beck's talk and that idea wasn't even close to being in there.

Offenses....if you want to find them, you will.

I did stay | 12:40 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

"I Did Leave" wrote: "It's interesting and sad that some in your church will say 'this is from "God" if you don't like it...leave'. Oh really? Does that sound like "God" to you?'

I'm sorry you did leave, but that was entirely your choice. I'm glad you've found a level of peace in your decision.

But I think what Jesus said was, "Come follow me." He didn't say, "Hey, only follow me in those things you agree with, but if perchance there's some areas where we disagree, well, what the heck, that's OK. Go ahead and ignore my advice and it's still OK."

I'm reminded of the young man that came to Jesus and asked him what he should do. Jesus told him to keep all of the commandments. The young man said he had kept them all from his youth. Jesus told him to then sell all his possessions and follow him. But the young man put his head down and walked away.

Using your philosophy, I suppose the young man was just fine in what he did?

No one said he was bad -- he just didn't do everything he was asked.

It's not always easy is it?

Anonymous | 12:45 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

I never thought Sis. Beck's talk would be taken the way it has or that the family would be attacked like this, by no other than some of the women in the church. When General Authorities give talks about certain topics, I believe some of them do not apply to me, personally, or at that specific stage of my life. It is the same in this case. If you are not a mother, then don't worry about it. If you are a mother who is single or widow, the Lord has great rewards for you, and quite frankly this is not directly for you. If you are a mother who is able to and decides to stay home with your children, then you would greatly benefit from this talk. If you are a mother who is able to and decides NOT to stay home with your little ones, then this talk may not be pleasant to hear. If you are offended by it, I encourage you to read "A Proclamation to the World" and compare it with her talk and notice if there is any difference. Pray about it. I hope those who were offended by it will seek repentance.

For Camille Aagard | 12:48 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Camille -

DON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO ANYONE WHO WOULD TRY TO MINIMIZE YOUR ROLE AS A FAITHFUL LATTER-DAY SAINT AND A LOVING, STAY-AT-HOME MOTHER!!!

GOD W-I-L-L BLESS YOU FOR YOUR TIRELESS EFFORTS AT RAISING HIS CHILDREN.

Others may rant and rave if they wish, but stand strong, sister, stand strong!!!

God bless you in your righteous endeavors as a Latter-day Saint woman and mother.

Regards - Dan Maloy
Enid, OK

gentile in california | 12:50 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Paul, I don't know how old you are, but it's been forty years since the McDonald case threw out the rules that flight attendants had to be single. I have numerous friends from high school and the community who are wonderful mothers of families AND flight attendants at the same time.

That said, I did read Julie Beck's remarks and feel they may have been misinterpreted by some. The title of her talk was not the greatest choice...had it included the phrase "to mothers who know" or "to mothers of the church", it would have been more clear that she was addressing LDS mothers, rather than marginalizing women who are single or childless.

And rather that an attack on LDS women who are mothers and who work and who do a good job of both, the talk could also be viewed as a wake up call for stay at home LDS moms who aren't the greatest homemakers (poorly kept homes or large numbers of children lacking discipline...anyone who has been to a family style restaurant in Utah knows what I mean, you've all seen them).

To Robert, the non-Mormon | 12:52 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Sir -

I applaud you for your wisdom in recognizing Sis Beck's.

Amen to you, Sir! Amen!

God Bless "Larry in Manti" | 12:52 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Couldn't have said it better myself.

To My LDS Brothers and Sisters | 1:00 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

"The time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face of an enemy to the people of God. Then, brethren, LOOK OUT FOR THE GREAT SIEVE, FOR THERE WILL BE A GREAT SIFTING TIME, AND MANY WILL FALL; for I say unto you there is a test, a test, a test is coming, and who will be able to stand?"

Heber C. Kimball, from the "Life of Heber C. Kimball", pg 446

Re: Travo | 1:09 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

No, Sis. Beck is not the Prophet. However, when she speaks, if she (or anyone else) speaks in accordance with the promptings of the Holy Ghost, she speaks with the same power and authority of the Prophet because then she would be speaking the words of God.

Is that not what the Lord's chosen prophet speaks?, the words of God?

"And this is the ensample unto them, that they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.

And whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the POWER of God unto salvation." - Doctrine and Covenants 68: 3-4

Now, who says LDS women are doomed to weakness and second-class status?.....

Kicking against the Pricks | 1:14 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Do these women really think they are going to be able to change the ideal with their complaining? I am so glad my mom displayed the principles Sister Beck outlined in her talk. I have had a great life because of her.

You do the best you can with your situation, while striving for the ideal. I think most Latter-day Saints understand this concept. If there are areas that you can change, selfish endeavors that may need to be put away in order to live the ideal, then we need to try and make those changes. One thing is certain, the lack of mothers living up to the principles Sister Beck taught is causing many problems in society today. It can have lasting effects on a family for generations. Thank you Sister Beck for teaching us principles that are badly needed in today's world.

What did NOW do? | 1:15 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

"Boo Hoo to you men and women that gauge your successes by the $$$$$ in your pockets. Or VP plaque on your door."

But money put a roof over the heads of yur family, food on the table, clothes on their backs, school supplies, pays for weddings and missions, and your retirement.

Instead of this:
"Dads - Provide for and protect your family. Help your wives with ALL she's in need of. She has a much tougher responsibility than you anyway.

Moms - Nurture and raise your children to be positive influences on society. Sustain and support your husbands, because you can be their largest ego inflators and they like that."

Try this:
Dads and Moms- Provide for and protect your family. Help your spouse with ALL they're in need of.
Nurture and raise your children to be positive influences on society. Sustain and support your spouse, because you can be their largest ego inflators and they like that.

My problem with the current patriarchal system in place is that it absolves fathers of providing fatherly nuturing ("Wait until your father get's home" mentality.)

My wife and I both teach, clean, and take responsibility for our kids.

More father's should.

Anonymous | 1:25 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008

Wow this turned into nothing more than testimonials. This was a silly article to run in "a newspaper" and the comments are just embarrassing. It is little wonder why the culture and people of church ar continually mocked.

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