Deseret News | LDS leader's '07 address still causing controversy

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LDS leader's '07 address still causing controversy

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cz | 5:26 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Her talk was entitled 'MOTHERS who know", not YW who know or RS presidents who know. I remember Pres. Benson giving a talk to the singles in the Church and I wasn't offended because he wasn't speaking about me. I don't need that kind of attention. I suspect Sheri Dew was not offended by this talk, because she knows who she is and that her value and worth are based on who she is, not what title she holds.

Jane | 5:27 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I think Sister Beck's talk was beautiful and I found nothing in it that was offensive. As a young, at-home, LDS mother with a degree in psychology; I found it refreshing to hear someone who appreciates the importance of the work I am taking time to do during this point in my life. I am other things beside a mother. However, while my kids are in the home they will be my highest priority. Those who have studied psychology understand the tremendous impact mothers have on their children. One of the hardest things in our society I have found about being a mother is that others tend to think your not doing anything important. I found her talk empowering and comforting. For those women who are not mothers--they should not be judged at all and their importance should be recognized. This talk just happened to be about mothers and not women in general so please do not be offended.

Wyoming | 5:29 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

No one can be offended quite like a liberal self proclaimed intellectual.

Comments continue below

Alan | 5:34 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Two points:

1. Funny that there is such an uproar about the idea that motherhood is the most important work a woman can do. Has anything different ever been said in the church about the men? Is not fatherhood the most significant work a man can do? No one complained about that ... certainly not the bachelors in the church. I've been single most of my adult life, and I didn't disagree.

2. Motherhood and fatherhood are about teaching children LIFE SKILLS and CHARACTER. Neither corporations nor academia teach these very well. Sure, homemaking is nice, and Sister Beck was only pointing out that an orderly home invites peace, and the Spirit, which is true. (Martha Stewart makes an industry of homemaking, and gets paid and praised by the millions. But she's a C.E.O.!) What's wrong with a little balance? Some of these folks need to be less defensive, and a little more willing to give kudos to their sisters who choose a path different than the academic or corporate ones.

Of course, living a Christlike life is what really matters, and getting upset about things like this shows how much growth many of us still need.

from Robert | 5:35 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I doubt every Mormon is being judged by her comments; the lady is just giving good advice to women, and IMO, if they heed what she has to say, they will be better off for it. If women are judging themself, that is not necessarily "bad"; it is good that we judge ourselves, and make sure that we try to be the best that we can be (best citizens, children, and parents). We (people) shouldn't be too hard on ourselves; however, we shouldn't be too easy either.

I am not LDS, and don't belief in Mormon Theology (Joseph Smith being a prophet, etc.). However, I do believe in LDS principles and values. What the Church teaches it's members (and nom-members, such as "me") is in a nutshell, "the right stuff".

If there is someone "out there" who can refute what this lady has to say; namely, show me that it is all BS, I'd like to hear from him/her. The best wife is a good mother; the best father is a man who loves his children's mother. Corny wording (perhaps) - but true to the core.

William | 5:38 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

"Me thinks thou protesteth too much" and "Seek not to counsel your God"

Relying on the Intelligence of experts have given me warning about the coming Ice Age and Global Warming in my lifetime. Not a very good track record.

I will put my faith in the creator of the systems that not only put us on this earth, but allows us to stay here.

Families and especially Mothers are part of those systems. When Mothers disappear so will we.

Mrs. Beck just defined what good looks like in a mother. She did not attack what you may or may not be doing. She just restated the standard.

If you have an issue with that standard, fine, just make sure the issue does not come from guilt. Are you attacking the standard because it is wrong or because you can't live up to it and you have to make yourself more comfortable in your own skin.

"experts" have shown us what to do and not to do for years. Too bad that advice too often conflicts over time.

Motherhood is too important too leave to the "experts"

STEVE-O | 5:44 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

We are given council and encouragement by church leaders. But at the end of the day we'll stand before GOD and give him an account of what we have done with our time on earth.
There are politics and human error in the Church, but at the end of the day we're just people doing the best we can. We're being the best Mothers and Fathers we know how to be. Sister Beck was given the task of addressing this issue in the church and she did what she felt was right. There's certainly no harm in that.

Sith | 5:43 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Do we follow the Letter of the Law or the Spirit of the Law?

Thou shall not steal...

There is no excuse for stealing...

Thou shall keep the Sabbath Day holy...

I guess the Police Officers and Paramedics are doomed because they have to work on Sundays? I think not...

The Lord knows our needs and circumstances girls...

Our Very Own Iron Lady | 5:47 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I've been wanting to voice my support and admiration for Julie Beck. When I heard that talk, I thought there is a person who was raised up and has something to say. Let's all hope she doesn't censor herself. This world needs more people who speak to the ideal without fear. She's an absolute class act - I've never met her, never talked to her. But I see in Julie Beck that formidable strength that comes from striving to live up to a noble ideal. She has that wonderful mix of grit and poise that often eludes the Pharisees of our day.

I Can't Resist | 5:48 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Well it looks like there are a lot of people who need to get a life. Many of you need better self esteem. We all have our free agency to live our life how we think we should. Personally, I thought Sister Beck's talk was inspired. Good families and good parents are what the world needs now!!!!

Thinking | 5:49 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

There seems to be an overarching theme from the comments I've read. Why did people react so negatively towards Sis Beck's talk? I believe it's been addressed.
Sis Beck is a well traveled leader who has visited several countries and members from different cultural upbringing.
I wonder what women from other countries think of her talk? So far, the ladies I've spoken with find it of worth and value to them. They come from different background, some have children, some divorced, some don't have children and some have never been married. Yet they find Sis Beck's talk valuable in their individual lives. I wonder why that is.

Sophie | 6:00 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Consider the source: Sunstone Symposium. While they think highly of their opinions, I don't. Sunstone strives diligently to serve two masters: faithful members of the LDS church and the alienated and estranged. It's a watering hole for feminists, gays, and other disaffected members of the church to gather and prattle on about their various grievances and resentments -- all packaged in cleverly written intellectual babble.

1 Nephi 16:2 | 6:04 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

"The guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center".

Sounds like a handful of people might be falling into this group.

Esther | 6:04 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I have been on both sides of the housewife issue-my first husband pretty much demanded it of me(non lds) no matter how I felt-I had no kids.I felt like I was a slave held captive-but....when I remarried,it was a great joy to me and I loved being home and with the step kids as well.I also worked a bit.Everyone has thier own style-their won way of doing things.No one ever fits a mold entirely..and those who feel they need to need to rethink on how valauable and really loved they truely already are. You are special...and doing the best you can and follwing your heart.That is all that's needed.

I know that it is not a "formula" for all...but sister was speaking to those who needed to hear it to help them define themselves IF they needed to hear it.No one can speak to every need out there among women.I am sure she did not mean to do that. I am now a single LDS woman and I am very happy. As a single LDS member I feel supported,empowered and uplifted by my church and my men leaders.A thing I in my whole life I have never felt.HORRAH!

kayla | 6:05 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

The one sister in my ward that I heard complaining about this talk is notorious for always taking the opposing view. I served in a presidency with her and no matter what anyone else suggested, she would always knock it down. Some people feel they need to play the devil's advocate. I just chalk it up to their personality and let them deal with the aftermath of being known as a troublemaker.

Grandma | 6:06 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I would strongly recommend everyone read a most wonderful talk by Sister Sheri Dew titled: "Are We Not All Mothers?" in the November 2001 Ensign. Sister Dew was Second Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency at that time.

Chris J. | 6:10 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I'm always amused when people state that having children 'erodes' who they are.
What a conniving, slanderous, false statement that is!!

A Mother | 6:15 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Sister Beck's talk was directed to one segment of women in the WORLD not just women in the church: mothers. All mothers everywhere could benefit from her wisdom and advice. All women, not just mothers, could benefit from the message of her talk by realizing it was meant to uplift, encourage, and enlighten. Those of you who are troubled by this talk need to take a look at why it troubles you so, "For the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very center."

Nancy | 6:15 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

It takes faith to believe the LDS churchï¿½s A Proclamation to the World that concerns the family and a manï¿½s and womanï¿½s role within the Lordï¿½s church. Iï¿½ve always believed that the Lordï¿½s commandments are a recipe for a happier life. On the other hand, we have free agency and we can choose to disobey those commandments or the words of His Prophets and reap the consequences of those actions. Iï¿½ve been a working mother out of necessity, but Iï¿½ve worked part-time the last 5 years; however, circumstances have changed financially and I recently gave up my job to be a stay at home mom. I donï¿½t think I was very available to my children when I worked because I often came home tired. Therefore, I look forward to being more available to my family in many capacities. I think it is a temptation to pursue a career, I used to have one; but I love my family and can see how being home can bless and protect them in many ways. For instance, being able to supervise them while theyï¿½re on the internet is a big one. My joy and blessing is seeing my family succeed and their happiness.

breanna | 6:16 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Sister Beck speaks the truth. I have an LDS neighbor (I don't live in Utah) who is an embarassment to the church because of her poor parenting. She has a large family and doesn't discipline or supervise them and the neighbors are disgusted and upset. The LDS mom just figures because she has 8 kids, she entitled to allow her kids to run wild because she is overwhelmed and others just need to be understanding. The problem is that it isn't socially acceptable here to let your toddlers roam around outside for hours on end, vandalizing flower gardens and generally getting into mischief. Sadly, the ones who need this talk the most don't see it that way. All the while they are misrepresenting the LDS family and the way it should be. Not perfect, but strong and loving and an ASSET to the community instead of neighbors celebrating when they move away. (That actually happened.)

Whiners.... | 6:14 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I think Lucy 5:25 said it best.

I've been taught all my life by the church that we should do the best we can at whatever worthy cause we are engaged in. Eductation, civic leadership, church responsibilites, and YES... even parenthood.

It's true, children do better if mom stays at home with them, check the research. Sister beck wasn't out of line for saying what she did. But...based on the article, and some of the comments, it seems that there are a lot of people out there who don't have a clue what the church REALLY teaches or this would be a non-issue.

Sarah | 6:42 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I'm a young single member of the church, never been married, never had kids, and I found Sister Beck's talk to be excellent. It was one of my very favorite talks in Conference that session.

I heard a talk once, and I don't remember who it was by, but I'd like to say President Packer. He said that oftentimes when you feel the Spirit, it goes hand in hand with the stinging of rebuke. That's not to offend, that's to let you know that spiritually, you're not pointed in the exact right direction. You may be close, but each of us will always have things we can work on.

Some people will constantly look for offense, no matter what the intent is. Sister Beck didn't say one word that was out of line with official church doctrine. Everybody has different circumstances, that's why the Lord takes your desires into consideration along with everything else.

I think people just really need to get over themselves. Just because you think you've been offended doesn't mean you actually have been, and just because you think you're right doesn't mean you actually are. The Lord, however, is always right.

Fishing for support? | 6:44 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

It seems like women are just looking for support for choosing fame, fortune, and prestige over having more offspring? Church leaders can't support this worldly view because it is a direct violation of Gods eternal plan. Even for those who can't have children they are still under the commandment to "seek first the kingdom of heaven"; Men and women both make great sacrifices to raise a family so it's not a one way street.... So quit whining!

I will Read it Again | 6:48 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I heard all the conference talks and now I am motivated to read Sister Beck's for re-assimilation. By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.

Anonymous | 6:50 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

First, as a LDS male I can't claim I understand the LDS female experience. But I can say this: LDS guys are given a lot of expectations too. Not going on mission in this culture is -not- fun. Nor is the feeling of having one's life mapped out: marriage, kids, life in suburbia and church callings, etc... all while living a rather strict moral law. All while imagining myself as one of those older guys I don't quite associate myself with.

Then I decided to stop be acted upon and decided to start acting. Pressure and expectation is everywhere, especially in the church. But it is and was mostly of my own creation. Doing anything without developing the true desire to do so is a recipe for misery.

God knows we are finite beings and can't do it all. But I don't think we should cripple spiritual ideals such as missionary work and motherhood just because those ideals sometimes cause pain and sometimes are unachievable by very definition.

to Women "Leaders" | 6:52 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I would bet that Sister Beck has much more world experience than you, including living in Brazil for an extended period of time.

Men mtg | 6:57 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

The reason I like General Priesthood meeting so much is because the speakers tend to say it like it is, rather than couch their language in fluff.

If I were the adversary... | 6:59 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

The best way to destroy individual souls would be convince them that their righteous pursuits to follow the Savior somehow enslaved them and instead would convince them that it was more important to "free" themselves to pursue worldly accolades.

Male or Female, the strategy is the same, but the tactics are a little different. I personally applaud Sis. Beck for praising and supporting righeous mothers for their efforts to make important contributions to their families, wards and communities.

Fortunately, the Spirit teaches the Truth. All of our hearts were pricked upon hearing Sis. Beck's counsel. Some have chosen to follow those promptings and some have become defensive.

Think about it Anonymouse | 7:09 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

"How can a girl that starts being a baby machine at 18 with no education intellectually stimulate and teach their children?"

The same way that any other mother at any other age can. By pursuing excellence in family, education, community, church, etc.

We do educate people in this country. Just ask any 18 year old. With dual enrollment some 18 year olds can finish at least two years of college.

Anonymous | 7:21 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

As an educated, intellectual, stay-at-home AND work-from-home mother, I was completely inspired by Sister Beck's talk. For me it was a clarion call to stand a little taller, and to reflect on the enormous importance of nurturing and teaching my children in love and righteousness. My children cover the spectrum of mental ability and each presents unique challenges, but regardless, each child needs to be spiritually grounded. I find I am able to meet their spiritual needs when I am spiritually fed myself; likewise I can meet their intellectual needs when my mind is intellectually stimulated. There is nothing wrong with taking time to nuture myself as an individual, and I think much of the controversy comes down to the erroneous assumption that in motherhood we must all run faster than we have the strength, or until we have no more strength. "Women who know" are swift to tap into that higher power, that unfailing source of strength, and find that the seemingly impossible tasks of motherhood are not so impossible after all.

Walt | 7:24 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Sister Beck is inspired and correct. The seditious members who believe they know better than the leadership of the church should either learn obedience and humility or start their own church. In every dispensation there are those who think they know better than the Prophets. Womanhood is sacred and cheapened by feminists and the unfaithful.

ChainSawHarry | 7:45 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Intrigued by the "uproar" caused by this talk, I went back and listened to Sis Beck's talk, TWICE. I saw nothing offensive, or incorrect in her words, or inconsistent with the Gospel teachings.

As a man with a less than perfect marriage, I know the sting, the pain and the "Eternal Uncertainty" when one views their life against the perfect models of the Church, but as Sis Beck was quick to point out, "eternity is a long time." I believe a lot of us will be able to achieve lives closer to the perfect model in eternity. I suppose that is where Hope and Faith enters in.

As for me, I will continue to listen and adhere as best I can to the counsel of the leaders. Knowing that every blessing will fall into place at the appropriate time and place.

Southern California | 7:46 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

And as usual, "the guilty take the truth to be hard." By the way, ALL General Conference talks are approved before they are given. So the Brethern DID know exactly what she would be saying.
The morality in this world has decayed beyond belief. I wonder why??

Sunstone, eh? | 8:07 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Pure intellectualism and sophistry.

Women Rule! | 8:05 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

If anything, the MormonChurch seems to have forgot the old by true saying, "The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."

They've also forgot that unlike their break off sect theFLDS, we live a modern, enlightened and democratic world where woman can't be simply relegated to mysoginistically imposed rules because some 'authority' says so.

The world we live in today moved way beyond the inquisition a long time ago.

John Pack Lambert | 8:13 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I find it hard to believe that many of these people actually read or listened to Sister Beck's talk. Sister Toscano miscaraterized what Sister Beck said. She never said that people outside the church are universally enemies of the family, she said that the people in popular culture who try to teach about womanhood deliver a false message. If people get their views on womanhood from Brittny Spears and the like they have issues.
Beyond this, speaking about family was only one third of Sister Beck's talk was even about the family. She spent a whole third on preserving the family and a third on providing relief. She never said that woman should not work outside the home. She never directly addressed the issue of women working.

Hurray for Sister Beck | 8:13 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I am sure that Sister Beck knew that many would take her talk to be a difficult subject. I don't know her, but I am grateful that she took her talk to the Lord in prayer and gave it. I am an LDS working mom and I do not fit in with the "ideal" any more than most of the women I know. But, I do understand the pattern of happiness that the Lord has set out and that given better circumstances, I would have been thrilled to live the ideal better than I am able to now. One thing I HAVE noticed is that women are their worst enemies and create divisiveness comparing themselves to other women. They create much of their own heartache by wanting to be recognized for all the work they do (paid or unpaid). This talk was for women and not men. And so she did not include the ideal for men as well. Of course men and women both nurture their children. I am grateful I do not have her calling. But, 500 names does not come close to the number of women in the church. Keep it up Sister Beck. I sustain you.

Larry Holmes | 8:13 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Funny. I've noticed over the past couple of years that the Church has greatly increased its emphasis on the wider spectrum of interests women choose to pursue now. If I was a new member, I would have noticed that at least half of what is shown on KBYU-TV, for example, clearly emphasizes women's roles in all aspects of living. I first noticed this when the BYU-TV sports broadcast schedules became almost entirely about women's games! I was ill, which required that I stay down for a long time,and I could not read or surf. So I watched TV a LOT. I became frustrated when tried to watch "classic games", expecting to see games I remembered from times past. Imagine how thrilled I was to find that, instead of a thrilling ball game with Notre Dame or Pitt etc., the "classic" game was WOMEN'S LACROSSE, or one of the other thrilling battles between BYU women and amazons from obscure junior colleges in Australia! If I wanted to watch men's games, I'd have to get up at 5 am on saturdays! This is a trivial example but it DOES represent a general trend by the LDSChurch to recognize women's expanding roles.

Mark | 8:15 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

And so the "WAR" goes on.We know "one third" of the heavenly host lost their opportunity for further progression because they supported the wrong cause. Let us then understand, all who now live will be partakes of a universal reseruction, thanks be to our Lord and Savior, JESUS CHRIST. But only those who keep their "second estate" will have "eternal glory added opon them". Lets seen now, what are those conditions again?

Anonymous | 8:34 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Sister Becks Talk was a landmark talk. One of the best talks ever given to women. It was a companion talk to Elder Oaks talk of that same conference, Good, Better, Best. He also mentioned some points about todays families that some might have taken to be hard. Those of you who are a part of this website and are participating in criticizing your leaders...do you realize what you are doing? You are not a law unto yourselves. Say what you want, do what you want, but the Lord is in charge and His leaders will say and must say what He commands. If you have a problem don't point your finger at His servants, look in the mirror.
Sister Beck is the leader for these times. EVerything she said was right on the mark.

Tai H. | 8:39 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Janice Allred is an apostate.

All this article did was give an apostate a place to speak and vent.

Who cares? Drop the subject.

NM Parent | 8:38 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

What a pathetic article written only to get people stirred up and read the DN. These people must not have anything better to do with their time than to be part of a useless panel as described in this article. I support and sustain the church leaders.

John Pack Lambert | 8:41 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

To jrccmsmom,
I completely agree with your sentiments. I did not hear Sister Beck's talk, but I read it today. She talks about so much more than being a mother.
People need validation of motherhood. Many people fulfill that role in many ways. Some of the best mothers I have known were mothers of adopted children.
To Lucy,
You do have a good point, and I do not think any group would dare have a forum on how horrible it is for church leaders to speak against pornography. However there are people who attack the church leaders for their position on homosexuality, which is a behavior that probably has twice as many male as female practioners.
It should also be noted that Margeret Toscano, one of the presenters, has been excommunicated. I can not say about the other four, but this is not exactly a good sample of LDS women's views on these issues.

Do you know Julie? Yes or no! | 8:43 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

to Robert,

"Oh, but every mother in the LDS church is being judged by Ms. Beck's words and is judging herself."

How is this any different then talks given to men about the very same subject and how we should be good husbands, fathers and rear children in good homes.

"I worry for her mental health as her anguish in not measuring up continues to plague her. She's a good mum in my opinion, but according to the stick she's being measured with she fails on several fronts so she beats herself with it."

You have no compassion for others and I hope your sister doesn't reads what you have written. What kind of person are you? Beck's talk was one of the most compassionate and said women should STRIVE to be better mothers, better wives and better persons.

I'm sure you would take issue with Ballard's talk too "While women live in homes under many different circumstances-married, single, widowed, or divorced, some with children and some without-all are beloved of God, and He has a plan for His righteous daughters to receive the highest blessings of eternity."

I can't speak for women but reading your post hurt my feelings.

Katlynnelore | 8:48 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

If it had been me in the hall, and was told I was just a slave, I would have completely agreed. Then, I would have replied, tis far better for me to be a slave for my children, then my children be a slave unto me. In life, something always has to give.

Enter Name | 8:48 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

"the wicked take the truth to be hard."

SZD | 8:55 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Please...read the talk - again. Where did Sister Beck beat up on mothers or any woman for that matter? Quite the contrary! Those of you who took her talk in a negative way must not understand that in using the word "SHOULD", Sister Beck was probably complimenting Mormon women.

You probably took it to mean OBLIGATION or DUTY ï¿½ as in ï¿½You should send her a note.ï¿½

I took it to mean PROBABILITY or EXPECTATION ï¿½ as in ï¿½They should arrive at noon.ï¿½

As a Mormon woman we have inspiration, blessings, covenantial power from on High that makes the probability and expectation a pretty strong likelihood. Get your minds, hearts and facts right women, and don't take offense - even if you "think" you heard the truth. Sister Beck is watching out for you and yours!

PS: Have somebody tell you the story about the woman at Heathrow airport who bought a package of biscuits (cookies) and thought the man sitting next to her ate them! Sometimes our perspective is all messed up.

isis | 9:00 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I think that women have a hard time being heard and validated in any patriarchal order. D&C 121 states that it is the nature of almost all men that when given some power, they will abuse it. (paraphrased)
We have been taught incorrect principles for so long over the local pulpit and in our own homes. The principles of MAN, not God. God knows who we are, what we contribute, and that we have power to form the world of the future. Fear in the hearts of men, of intelligent, independent women causes problems such as this. Women who are in the role of mother, full time, part time, double time, need reminders that what they do is valuable. It would be the easy way for many mom's to leave the raising of our children to others and justify it very well. from the mind and heart of an intelligent, independent, open-minded lds mother of 5...I say the easy way isn't always the best way. I would be dissatisfied with anyone else mothering my children. They are an extension of me. I care for them as myself.

mmm | 9:04 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

Both sides are worth listening and understanding. Ultimately, whatever our reaction is, we can get down on our knees and address the owner of the answers. When we are concerned with what our personal role or life should be, we can pray and know from direct source. It is commendable to be engaged in a good cause, and the wise woman knows how to obtain knowledge and peace. Let's make sure we have obtained wisdom from above before going to the battlefield.

Anne Abrahamson | 9:12 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008

I just want Sister Beck to know I fully appreciated and loved her talk - I will always remember it forever! I was so inspired that I quote it frequently to my missionary son in Denmark. I raised 7 children and I was not a perfecr LDS mother - I did my best and the Lord filled in the rest....

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