Reader comments
Amy Donaldson: Talking about God in sports a touchy topic
92 comments | Read story
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
re:Agreed 3:12 p.m. | 3:48 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
I don't think Austin really meant you were "losers" for
questioning what he said.
I think he meant you were "losers" as in "adult hypersensitive crybabies"...
Personally, I think Austin was right in both cases.
It's time to grow up.
I think he meant you were "losers" as in "adult hypersensitive crybabies"...
Personally, I think Austin was right in both cases.
It's time to grow up.
re:I don't think He cares | 3:39 | 3:55 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
Thank you for the common sense post.
What's funny is how much this pales to what is said on the field at a higher level.
What's funny is how much this pales to what is said on the field at a higher level.
Comments continue below
Utah Iggle Fan | 6:36 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
I encourage everyone to view or read Art Monk's NFL Hall of Fame acceptance
speech to see this God/sports issue wonderfully put into perspective. I'm
relating it to this because I hate the Redskins, and I'm not the same faith
as Monk. But he expressed his faith beautifully.
Anonymous | 7:43 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
as an active member of the lds church and a university of utah fan. GOD COULD
CARE LESS ABOUT THE OUTCOME OF A FOOTBALL GAME. enough said
Damian | 7:49 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
How could God enjoy a sporting event? He already knows who will win.
Does God Think? | 8:57 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
God so loved the world and everything in it, that he did not pollute the forms
he created by labeling the myriads of them with silly words. God is the creator
of all things, I doubt he has stopped to "think" about anything, ever.
Omnicient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He already knows. Simply, God is a part
of everthing there is. If he were to stop creating (I hope he doesn't) and
really look at this nonsense "he said she said", if he were to
"think", my guess would be: "mmmm silly humans, still at
it"
May you all be blessed with incomparable joy.
I LOVE FOOTBALL and thanks to God I get to be involved in it in inumerable ways, thank you thank you!
May you all be blessed with incomparable joy.
I LOVE FOOTBALL and thanks to God I get to be involved in it in inumerable ways, thank you thank you!
A "Holy War"... | 8:57 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
... is the LAST thing this whole BYU-Utah nastiness is. It might be a war, but
t'ain't "holy" by anyone's definition.
Somebody somewhere about 15 years ago or so thought this would be such a clever little name to call this ongoing lose-lose exchange of venom in which EVERYONE looks like a jerk. (Fine, someone will call me a jerk too for pointing it out! Don't bother asking me if I care, though.)
No, this name isn't clever--it's stupid and insensitive (Islamic jihad?) as well as inaccurate. It encourages yet more spite and anger. And it makes people who insist on using it anyway (sorry, Amy) look dumber than all the rocks on every Utah mountain.
It's time to put it on the shelf, folks. Well past time, really.
Somebody somewhere about 15 years ago or so thought this would be such a clever little name to call this ongoing lose-lose exchange of venom in which EVERYONE looks like a jerk. (Fine, someone will call me a jerk too for pointing it out! Don't bother asking me if I care, though.)
No, this name isn't clever--it's stupid and insensitive (Islamic jihad?) as well as inaccurate. It encourages yet more spite and anger. And it makes people who insist on using it anyway (sorry, Amy) look dumber than all the rocks on every Utah mountain.
It's time to put it on the shelf, folks. Well past time, really.
Gretzky | 9:01 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
great article. i would love to see this holy war called off. i as a cougar fan
am tired of playing Utah and i am sure they are too. it's time to venture
out and play all of the Armed Forces teams each year. can't wait for the
Army game in a couple of years.
Re: James Halls | 9:28 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
I agree, your 7 year old daughter does whine MORE than Ute fans. If only the
same were true about BYU fans.
Y Grad / Y Dad | 10:38 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
I live amongst the non-mormons, and, no - they would not have been offended by
Collies comments. They wouldn't have cared. I think there are two, maybe
three classes of people who would care enough to be offended:
1) the chip on the shoulder non-mormon in Utah who feels intimidated / frustrated / angry by anything LDS, intended, inferred, implied or any other way; (I really AM sorry that we as a people may have contributed to this defensivenes...)
2) the "offened for a word" crowd who is much like #1 above, but with no good reason - they are not really offended at all, they just delight in twisting words and finidng any rock they can to throw at BYU / the LDS church.
3) those who really are sensitive to the feelings of others, but to the point of hyper-sensitivity. Your heart may be in the right place, but you are willing to throw Collie under the bus for an offense he did not intend (or really even commit, in my biased opinion), in order to repair offense with people who LIKE to be offended.
Just my point of view, though...
1) the chip on the shoulder non-mormon in Utah who feels intimidated / frustrated / angry by anything LDS, intended, inferred, implied or any other way; (I really AM sorry that we as a people may have contributed to this defensivenes...)
2) the "offened for a word" crowd who is much like #1 above, but with no good reason - they are not really offended at all, they just delight in twisting words and finidng any rock they can to throw at BYU / the LDS church.
3) those who really are sensitive to the feelings of others, but to the point of hyper-sensitivity. Your heart may be in the right place, but you are willing to throw Collie under the bus for an offense he did not intend (or really even commit, in my biased opinion), in order to repair offense with people who LIKE to be offended.
Just my point of view, though...
Fully Invested | 11:15 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
I agree with what Collie said. However, when my Ute friends and I heard it we
all agreed that it would not go over well. He said something he believed and
therefore I respect him for it. I just wonder about the timing. But, how can you
blame him when he didn't grow up here and he wasn't made aware of all
the hypersensitive Utah fans. Just be careful what you say Utah fans. After all
you may be held to the same standards that you are holding Collie to. After
reading some of these comments there are a few who may want to take a strong
look in the mirror. Don't get me wrong , that goes for some of you BYU fans
as well.
Re: Y Grad / Y Dad | 11:28 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
You forgot BYU's hypersensitivity to U fans' reactions to
Collie's statements. Actually, Y fans' hypersensitivity to ANY
criticism against their teams, players, and sports programs. This is due to the
underlying issue: Y fans take any criticism as an attack on the LDS Church,
albeit they won't admit it or even realize it. I am active LDS, so I
believe I can see this.
U fans know this, and so exploit it and sometimes come up with some pretty obnoxious and nasty comments themselves - and they are labeled anti-Mormon because of it: perhaps some of them are, but most U fans are LDS themselves, and anti-Mormon sure isn't the right words to use to U fans who are LDS. Just because they mock the Y football team doesn't mean they are "anti".
This nasty "holy" war could be toned down if either side would just cool it down a bit. However, Y fans can easily cool it down by not being so hyper-sensitive. The Collie remarks were blown out of proportion by U fans, but Y fans hypersensitivity on the U fans' comments about it was blown out of proportion also.
Go Utes!
U fans know this, and so exploit it and sometimes come up with some pretty obnoxious and nasty comments themselves - and they are labeled anti-Mormon because of it: perhaps some of them are, but most U fans are LDS themselves, and anti-Mormon sure isn't the right words to use to U fans who are LDS. Just because they mock the Y football team doesn't mean they are "anti".
This nasty "holy" war could be toned down if either side would just cool it down a bit. However, Y fans can easily cool it down by not being so hyper-sensitive. The Collie remarks were blown out of proportion by U fans, but Y fans hypersensitivity on the U fans' comments about it was blown out of proportion also.
Go Utes!
Re: Subtle Difference | 11:43 p.m. Aug. 4, 2008
The problem with your post is that most of those complaining about Collie's
statements ARE LDS.
They are simply trying to find any reason to denegrate BYU. In their own self-righteous way they are trying to prove that BYU fans are self-righteous.
Neat huh? LDS tearing down LDS.
I for one am sick of it and think it is time for BYU to get out of the MWC so they don't have to continue to play Utah.
By the way, this is ONLY an issue in Utah - no where else.
They are simply trying to find any reason to denegrate BYU. In their own self-righteous way they are trying to prove that BYU fans are self-righteous.
Neat huh? LDS tearing down LDS.
I for one am sick of it and think it is time for BYU to get out of the MWC so they don't have to continue to play Utah.
By the way, this is ONLY an issue in Utah - no where else.
AC | 1:21 a.m. Aug. 5, 2008
HAHAH!
I have to laugh at how people get so worked up about what someone says when it has nothing to do with them at all.
Austin was asked a question by the media and he answered with what he thought and believed. He said nothing about what each of us do or do not believe.
So why do people make this about them? Why do people assume that if Austin belives God helped him make a catch, that same God couldn't give him a trial to work through? I think it's because people spend way to much time worrying about what others think that they don't even know what they think.
Funny stuff!
I have to laugh at how people get so worked up about what someone says when it has nothing to do with them at all.
Austin was asked a question by the media and he answered with what he thought and believed. He said nothing about what each of us do or do not believe.
So why do people make this about them? Why do people assume that if Austin belives God helped him make a catch, that same God couldn't give him a trial to work through? I think it's because people spend way to much time worrying about what others think that they don't even know what they think.
Funny stuff!
Eugene | 2:20 a.m. Aug. 5, 2008
Okay, all the criticism either way isn't getting anyone anywhere. Sounds
like everyone just wants to see the football season begin and let the cards fall
where they may.
For me, go Cougars!!
For me, go Cougars!!
geezer | 7:44 a.m. Aug. 5, 2008
RE: Mr. Apathy
Good point. I think Collie is a fine young man, but hasn't always excelled in front of a mike. (a la "We're going to put a hurtin on em" when asked how the 2004 Cougs would do against the Utes). Sometimes athletes say things or do overzealous things when adrenaline is flowing after a big win. Just ask the Boston Celtics. Personally I think thanking deity after a win should be done privately and not publicly. I don't think Collie meant any real harm, and he's being made a villain by thin skinned opponents.
Good point. I think Collie is a fine young man, but hasn't always excelled in front of a mike. (a la "We're going to put a hurtin on em" when asked how the 2004 Cougs would do against the Utes). Sometimes athletes say things or do overzealous things when adrenaline is flowing after a big win. Just ask the Boston Celtics. Personally I think thanking deity after a win should be done privately and not publicly. I don't think Collie meant any real harm, and he's being made a villain by thin skinned opponents.
Henry Drummond | 8:24 a.m. Aug. 5, 2008
Lavell Edwards was asked after one particularly thrilling upset win if he
thought God had played a part in BYU's success. He's answer was that
he thought God had more important things to worry about the outcome of football
games. I think that there are people of good character on every team. That
character will show through in areas where it makes a difference - in visiting
the sick, taking care of the poor, and in being a peace maker - not in wins and
losses on the football field.
Sarah | 10:20 a.m. Aug. 5, 2008
I don't understand what the big deal with the original comments is. He
didn't say that the Lord helped him and his team win because He didn't
like the other team, or that they were favored or anything of the sort. He said
that he prayed and asked the Lord to help him play his best, and that's
what happened. You can play your best and still lose. He just got lucky to both
play his best and win at the same time.
His comment about "losers", however, is incredibly unfortunate. I can understand being frustrated when people misunderstand what you're trying to say and resort to insults and name-calling in retaliation, but he shouldn't have stooped to their level.
His comment about "losers", however, is incredibly unfortunate. I can understand being frustrated when people misunderstand what you're trying to say and resort to insults and name-calling in retaliation, but he shouldn't have stooped to their level.
Horseshoe | 11:13 a.m. Aug. 5, 2008
If He didn't care about football, he wouldn't have brought Wayne
Woodrow Hayes back to heaven in 1987 to be His coach.
Jerry W | 11:18 a.m. Aug. 5, 2008
Concerning the heated and sometimes infantile statements made about the BYU and
Ute rivalry on both sides. It called to my mind an incident that happened while
I was in High school. Our team was playing a basketball game with our intense
rivals from only a few miles away. By halftime there were paper cups and other
debris on the court and fans from both sides were screeming their lungs out.
The principal of our high school came on the intercom and anounced that unless
this foolishness ceased immediately the second half of the game would not be
played, that the lights would be turned off and everyone would have to leave the
building and go home. I think the fans were convinced that he was serious and
would have done exactly as he said because the atmosphere immediately changed
and the second half of the ballgame was much more civil. I wonder if there is a
message here for all of us?
Anonymous | 9:41 p.m. Aug. 5, 2008
"...Athletic competition, bars and freeways are about the only places you
can watch normally intelligent, rational adults morph into out-of-control,
foul-mouthed, hateful, judgmental creatures...."
So you don't read the comments I take it. ;)
So you don't read the comments I take it. ;)
Anonymous | 11:02 p.m. Aug. 5, 2008
Who is this Austin Collie and certainly who is BYU? Irrelevent in the sports
world and most definitley in the religious world. Small potatoes except in Ut,
ID and pockets of the intermountain west. If you want true religion and true
football then one must look no futher then South Bend!
He knew... | 11:56 p.m. Aug. 5, 2008
Austin Collie knew exactly the implication of his comments. His intent was to
imply that he was successful and that BYU won because they were more righteous
than Utah's players. As someone said earlier he has had ample opportunity
to restate his intent if he chose to, but he has not.
To those who excuse him by saying he is only 22, if he was deemed mature enough to represent the Church on a mission, he should certainly be mature enough to respectfully represent his team after a football game. Regretfully, he was not.
He shouldn't be defended as if his comments were an honest expression of faith and gratitude. They were not. Collie's comments were a disrespectful reference to his opponent wrapped in religious expression.
To those who excuse him by saying he is only 22, if he was deemed mature enough to represent the Church on a mission, he should certainly be mature enough to respectfully represent his team after a football game. Regretfully, he was not.
He shouldn't be defended as if his comments were an honest expression of faith and gratitude. They were not. Collie's comments were a disrespectful reference to his opponent wrapped in religious expression.
My Two Cents | 11:40 a.m. Aug. 6, 2008
All you people STILL obsessed with Austin Collie's comments really, REALLY
need to move on with your lives. Believe me--nobody, and that's
NOBODY!--outside of Utah cares. You're all embarrassing yourselves!
You easily offended people, who think that any BYU player's reference to God and morality is a personal slap in the face, need to grow up. Get a hobby besides BYU-bashing.
AND you others, some of who can't see that not being "fully invested" in basic human qualities such as compassion, class, and decency comes at a BIG price, need to open your eyes. Why should others respect Austin Collie's remarks when some of you show so precious little respect for other people yourselves? News flash: Quite a number of you people need to grow up, too! Start practicing EVERYTHING you preach--like charity, kindness, and humility. Even at sporting events, or while commenting on them.
Everyone needs to take a few deep breaths and LET THIS GO. Learn and live your lessons. Become better people. Sing "I'm Trying to be Like Jesus" a little more often, and more seriously. Focus on something IMPORTANT.
That's all!
You easily offended people, who think that any BYU player's reference to God and morality is a personal slap in the face, need to grow up. Get a hobby besides BYU-bashing.
AND you others, some of who can't see that not being "fully invested" in basic human qualities such as compassion, class, and decency comes at a BIG price, need to open your eyes. Why should others respect Austin Collie's remarks when some of you show so precious little respect for other people yourselves? News flash: Quite a number of you people need to grow up, too! Start practicing EVERYTHING you preach--like charity, kindness, and humility. Even at sporting events, or while commenting on them.
Everyone needs to take a few deep breaths and LET THIS GO. Learn and live your lessons. Become better people. Sing "I'm Trying to be Like Jesus" a little more often, and more seriously. Focus on something IMPORTANT.
That's all!
hypersensitive? | 5:18 p.m. Aug. 6, 2008
BYU fans are being hypersensitive to Ute fans being hypersensitive?
How about this: Ute fans are being hyper sensitive to BYU fans are being hypersensitive to Ute fans being hypersensitive to BYU fans being hypersensitive to Ute fans being hypersensitive.
Do you see how stupid your statement is?
The bottom line is a few Ute cry babies are looking for something to wine about. So they are fabricating meaning behind some words that Collie made about a 4th down conversion that wasn't even the winning play of the game.
Oh by the way, can someone please show me the exact quote that Collie made about God not loving the Utes or God wanting BYU you to win over the Utes? I haven't seen it yet...because it doesn't exist.
How about this: Ute fans are being hyper sensitive to BYU fans are being hypersensitive to Ute fans being hypersensitive to BYU fans being hypersensitive to Ute fans being hypersensitive.
Do you see how stupid your statement is?
The bottom line is a few Ute cry babies are looking for something to wine about. So they are fabricating meaning behind some words that Collie made about a 4th down conversion that wasn't even the winning play of the game.
Oh by the way, can someone please show me the exact quote that Collie made about God not loving the Utes or God wanting BYU you to win over the Utes? I haven't seen it yet...because it doesn't exist.
hypersensitive? | 5:18 p.m. | 9:30 p.m. Aug. 6, 2008
As with liberals, its impossible to criticize Cougars without protests that you are a hypersensitive hater.
Ben J. | 8:41 a.m. Aug. 7, 2008
He knew... is exactly right. Well said!
As a matter of principle, it is hypocritical and offensive to claim that God favors you above others the way Austin Collie did. Any time an athlete thanks God for his or her success, they are claiming that God favored them and discriminated against their opponents. A righteous and just God would never do such a thing, regardless of what the superstitious ancient Israelites claim.
Austin Collie's statement was hypocritical for a more important reason. It ignores the fact that Austin Collie and BYU Football had FAILURES, too! Where was God then? Do they equally give God the credit for "cursing" them when they lose a game, or when Collie has a bad game? No. But to be consistent, they should. Presumably the "living right on and off the field" did not change, yet BYU lost several games last season, and Collie made countless mistakes.
Bottom line: It is wrong-headed, foolish, disrespectful, arrogant, and naive to give God the credit for helping you succeed in athletic competition. Period.
As a matter of principle, it is hypocritical and offensive to claim that God favors you above others the way Austin Collie did. Any time an athlete thanks God for his or her success, they are claiming that God favored them and discriminated against their opponents. A righteous and just God would never do such a thing, regardless of what the superstitious ancient Israelites claim.
Austin Collie's statement was hypocritical for a more important reason. It ignores the fact that Austin Collie and BYU Football had FAILURES, too! Where was God then? Do they equally give God the credit for "cursing" them when they lose a game, or when Collie has a bad game? No. But to be consistent, they should. Presumably the "living right on and off the field" did not change, yet BYU lost several games last season, and Collie made countless mistakes.
Bottom line: It is wrong-headed, foolish, disrespectful, arrogant, and naive to give God the credit for helping you succeed in athletic competition. Period.
Sarah | 11:58 a.m. Aug. 7, 2008
To Ben J:
Actually, I think it's wrong-headed, foolish, disrespectful, arrogant, and naive NOT to give God the credit for helping you succeed in anything you do. Including athletic competitions.
Actually, I think it's wrong-headed, foolish, disrespectful, arrogant, and naive NOT to give God the credit for helping you succeed in anything you do. Including athletic competitions.
Tung In Cheke | 12:04 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
When Harline was found open in the endzone last year, I was sitting in a section
with about 500 of our friends from the Church. We were all holding hands and
praying for a miracle. We specifically prayed that Harline would be open in the
endzone after time had expired.
We noticed that none of the Ute fans were performing the same prayer. That must have been why God blessed us with exactly the miracle we asked for. We were more righteous in our prayers than the Ute fans were.
You see? It is very simple. God loves us and BYU more than he does the Utes because we are more righteous on and off the field!
We noticed that none of the Ute fans were performing the same prayer. That must have been why God blessed us with exactly the miracle we asked for. We were more righteous in our prayers than the Ute fans were.
You see? It is very simple. God loves us and BYU more than he does the Utes because we are more righteous on and off the field!
Anonymous | 12:20 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
Sarah,
If you say that enough times, maybe it will become true!
If you say that enough times, maybe it will become true!
RE: Anonymous | 12:35 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
It's already true to her. Too bad so sad for you.
AB Millwe | 12:57 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
Q: Why wasn't it a big deal when Andrew Bogut's dad said he had a
vision from God that his son would be a huge basketball star? (Thereby implying
he would be outperforming less righteous opponents on the court and winning
games over less worthy teams. And that God -- whether you believe in his version
of God or not -- didn't care about anyone else in the universe.)
A: Because it wasn't coming from someone affiliated with BYU. Hence, nobody was offended, and a name-calling cycle wasn't initiated by a paranoid, infantile rival fan base.
If you haven't yet recognized there's a double-standard for BYU, you need to wake up.
A: Because it wasn't coming from someone affiliated with BYU. Hence, nobody was offended, and a name-calling cycle wasn't initiated by a paranoid, infantile rival fan base.
If you haven't yet recognized there's a double-standard for BYU, you need to wake up.
My Two Cents to Ab Millwe | 1:43 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
Excellent point, Ab! Tiger Woods' dad had similar experiences to Andrew
Bogut's. He envisioned and raised Tiger as "The Chosen One," who
would break down barriers of race and do things no athlete of minority heritage
had ever done before. Interestingly, Tiger has actually done very little since
to disprove that viewpoint.
Now if only the Woods family had gone to BYU and told the story, people in Utah--and ONLY Utah--would be telling him how righteous they thought they were for it! Tiger Woods would be Public Enemy #1! The DesNews comment forums would be FILLED with bile about Tiger Woods' supposedly conceited and sanctimonious attitude! How DARE he represent himself as The Chosen One! God doesn't love Tiger Woods any more than Utah golfers!
Just as well we were all spared the trouble, isn't it? I'm telling all y'all, people--outside of Utah, NOBODY CARES. Collie's comments are a tempest in a teapot. They don't mean God hates Utah (for the hypersensitive) or that BYU is Forever Blessed for its righteousness (it isn't, for those who haven't "fully invested" in good sense).
You people--on BOTH sides!--REALLY need to move on. It's well beyond the point of ridiculous.
Now if only the Woods family had gone to BYU and told the story, people in Utah--and ONLY Utah--would be telling him how righteous they thought they were for it! Tiger Woods would be Public Enemy #1! The DesNews comment forums would be FILLED with bile about Tiger Woods' supposedly conceited and sanctimonious attitude! How DARE he represent himself as The Chosen One! God doesn't love Tiger Woods any more than Utah golfers!
Just as well we were all spared the trouble, isn't it? I'm telling all y'all, people--outside of Utah, NOBODY CARES. Collie's comments are a tempest in a teapot. They don't mean God hates Utah (for the hypersensitive) or that BYU is Forever Blessed for its righteousness (it isn't, for those who haven't "fully invested" in good sense).
You people--on BOTH sides!--REALLY need to move on. It's well beyond the point of ridiculous.
Anonymous | 2:14 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
Your argument is flawed. Neither Bogut nor Tiger Woods' father or
themselves claim to be the "one and only true and living Church on the face
of the earth".
It is the LDS arrogance that brings this on, not the claims of spiritual experiences.
It is the LDS arrogance that brings this on, not the claims of spiritual experiences.
Rich | 4:47 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
I don't think that religion mixes with anything.
With religion you have to weigh the bad with the good, and although some good comes from it, it is mainly bad.
The LDS church hurts itself when they go out and tell EVERYONE in the world that they live are wrong and the LDS church is right.
That is an inconsiderate arrogant thing to do.
No one knows who is wright or wrong, even if you think you know, you really don't.
When are we going to move on from these horrible religious wars?
With religion you have to weigh the bad with the good, and although some good comes from it, it is mainly bad.
The LDS church hurts itself when they go out and tell EVERYONE in the world that they live are wrong and the LDS church is right.
That is an inconsiderate arrogant thing to do.
No one knows who is wright or wrong, even if you think you know, you really don't.
When are we going to move on from these horrible religious wars?
My Two Cents RE: 2:14 | 6:15 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
What's the flaw? Please explain.
This "arrogance" that you speak of could also easily be ascribed to both Andrew Bogut's and Tiger Woods' fathers by a prejudiced critic. What? You believe your son's been divinely blessed by God more than anyone else on Earth? If someone decides Earl Woods or Mr. Bogut are some sort of deluded self-righteous religious nuts, they will interpret their words and behavior in that light--no matter their actual personal character.
Your argument would make a little more sense--maybe?--if Scott Collie had ever proclaimed Zac OR Austin "Chosen Ones" and cited a vision to that effect. Well, THAT hasn't happened, and isn't likely to. The only parallel stems from a HUGE leap of logic based on one young man's offhand comment about "living right."
Finally, by claiming "LDS arrogance," don't you actually reveal your own prejudices? I wouldn't lump you in with the "hypersensitive" crowd just yet--but let's see what your own words testify about that.
But at best, you're trying to make apples out of oranges, my friend. Sorry.
This "arrogance" that you speak of could also easily be ascribed to both Andrew Bogut's and Tiger Woods' fathers by a prejudiced critic. What? You believe your son's been divinely blessed by God more than anyone else on Earth? If someone decides Earl Woods or Mr. Bogut are some sort of deluded self-righteous religious nuts, they will interpret their words and behavior in that light--no matter their actual personal character.
Your argument would make a little more sense--maybe?--if Scott Collie had ever proclaimed Zac OR Austin "Chosen Ones" and cited a vision to that effect. Well, THAT hasn't happened, and isn't likely to. The only parallel stems from a HUGE leap of logic based on one young man's offhand comment about "living right."
Finally, by claiming "LDS arrogance," don't you actually reveal your own prejudices? I wouldn't lump you in with the "hypersensitive" crowd just yet--but let's see what your own words testify about that.
But at best, you're trying to make apples out of oranges, my friend. Sorry.
Three Cents | 8:17 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
To My Two Cents,
No, "My friend", you are the one "making apples out of oranges" -- [what kind of figure of speech is that?]
And you are comparing mountains and molehills [is that one you invented, too?]
The fathers of Woods and Bogut were not claiming spiritual superiority and being favored by God spiritually. They were claiming Golf superiority and Basketball superiority. By contrast, Collie was AFTER THE FACT claiming SPIRITUAL superiority and saying it translated into a win on the field. That is a whole different kettle of horses, and a fish of a different color (am I speaking your language yet?)
No, "My friend", you are the one "making apples out of oranges" -- [what kind of figure of speech is that?]
And you are comparing mountains and molehills [is that one you invented, too?]
The fathers of Woods and Bogut were not claiming spiritual superiority and being favored by God spiritually. They were claiming Golf superiority and Basketball superiority. By contrast, Collie was AFTER THE FACT claiming SPIRITUAL superiority and saying it translated into a win on the field. That is a whole different kettle of horses, and a fish of a different color (am I speaking your language yet?)
My Final Two Cents | 10:45 p.m. Aug. 7, 2008
Well, since this seems to be descending into the petty and juvenile (a sign of
desperation, I'm guessing), just a few last REASONABLE points:
1) READ what Earl Woods has actually SAID about Tiger and his "vision" for him, and THEN tell us all with a straight face that he wasn't claiming any sort of spiritual or moral superiority for Tiger. The Gary Smith SI article "The Chosen One" would be #1 on your reading list. Research, my friend. Research.
2) You're still discussing your interpretation of Collie's words as if it were immutable fact. There IS a difference--and a rather significant one, at that. Deny it all you want, but you're not assessing the evidence fairly.
3) You still won't acknowledge that while the Woods and Bogut cases also apply to your argument, you single out Collie. If you're being logically consistent, you should condemn them all, too, along with a hundred other athletes who acknowledge God in their athletic success--but you won't.
All three points betray your prejudice--and you've repeatedly dodged that issue. So I'll assume I'm correct in that, and thank you!
Nice chatting with you! Have a wonderful evening.
1) READ what Earl Woods has actually SAID about Tiger and his "vision" for him, and THEN tell us all with a straight face that he wasn't claiming any sort of spiritual or moral superiority for Tiger. The Gary Smith SI article "The Chosen One" would be #1 on your reading list. Research, my friend. Research.
2) You're still discussing your interpretation of Collie's words as if it were immutable fact. There IS a difference--and a rather significant one, at that. Deny it all you want, but you're not assessing the evidence fairly.
3) You still won't acknowledge that while the Woods and Bogut cases also apply to your argument, you single out Collie. If you're being logically consistent, you should condemn them all, too, along with a hundred other athletes who acknowledge God in their athletic success--but you won't.
All three points betray your prejudice--and you've repeatedly dodged that issue. So I'll assume I'm correct in that, and thank you!
Nice chatting with you! Have a wonderful evening.
Aaron | 10:51 a.m. Aug. 8, 2008
We should thank God for times we win AND the times we loose.
Three Cents going on Four | 11:20 a.m. Aug. 8, 2008
Two Cents,
Let's make this simple for you.
Collie said what he said about himself. He knows the history between the Y and the U. He made the statement deliberately and his meaning was clear. That is why all the outrage. Only simpleminded BYU clones and duped LDS apologists try to ingore and minimize the meaning.
By contrast, neither Tiger nor Bogut said anything about THEMSELVES. You are quoting what their PARENTS (fathers) said. Parental hopes for their children are NOT claims to being personally favored of God.
Are we getting through yet?
Let's make this simple for you.
Collie said what he said about himself. He knows the history between the Y and the U. He made the statement deliberately and his meaning was clear. That is why all the outrage. Only simpleminded BYU clones and duped LDS apologists try to ingore and minimize the meaning.
By contrast, neither Tiger nor Bogut said anything about THEMSELVES. You are quoting what their PARENTS (fathers) said. Parental hopes for their children are NOT claims to being personally favored of God.
Are we getting through yet?
So, Four Cents... | 1:19 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008
... it's actually pretty simple to me. You've decided exactly what
Collie meant and nothing anyone says will persuade you any differently.
That's about as simple as it gets.
I've been arguing all along that references to God-given athletic ability and success are somewhat commonplace, which is ALL I see in Collie's remarks, the Woods/Bogut stories, and numerous other comments ranging from Reggie White to David Robinson. NONE are ANYTHING to get in a dither about.
What's so LDS-centric about that train of thought remains a mystery to me, though I'm sure you'll be happy to "explain"! And (read my previous posts) I'm actually NOT a "BYU fan." Truly and seriously. No mountains or molehills about it--except for those you build for yourself, of course.
Furthermore, as I've said several times before, down-your-nose comments such as "Only simpleminded BYU clones and duped LDS apologists try to ingore (SIC!) and minimize the meaning" reflect ONLY your OWN prejudice. You've actually said nothing about ME. Your obvious bias limits your own willingness and ability to understand the issues at hand, sorry to say.
Since having the final word seems to mean a great deal to you, feel free. I'm out.
I've been arguing all along that references to God-given athletic ability and success are somewhat commonplace, which is ALL I see in Collie's remarks, the Woods/Bogut stories, and numerous other comments ranging from Reggie White to David Robinson. NONE are ANYTHING to get in a dither about.
What's so LDS-centric about that train of thought remains a mystery to me, though I'm sure you'll be happy to "explain"! And (read my previous posts) I'm actually NOT a "BYU fan." Truly and seriously. No mountains or molehills about it--except for those you build for yourself, of course.
Furthermore, as I've said several times before, down-your-nose comments such as "Only simpleminded BYU clones and duped LDS apologists try to ingore (SIC!) and minimize the meaning" reflect ONLY your OWN prejudice. You've actually said nothing about ME. Your obvious bias limits your own willingness and ability to understand the issues at hand, sorry to say.
Since having the final word seems to mean a great deal to you, feel free. I'm out.
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
- NFL: Week 12 recap 12:50 a.m.
- '12 Days' bill would top $87K 12:35 a.m.
- Study finds autism therapy works 12:35 a.m.
- Boy shot following traffic stop 12:35 a.m.
- Sports on the air 12:24 a.m.
- Herbert builds his team of rivals 12:21 a.m.
- Corroon a step closer to governor 12:21 a.m.
- Monday on TV 12:18 a.m.
- Editorial: East, West and religion 12:17 a.m.
- A deficit commission? 12:17 a.m.
- Hall mouths off about hate of Utah
- BYU is champion of the state
- Cougars beat Utes in overtime
- Credit Coug defense for win
- Marriage definitions vary widely
- Field goals, penalties doomed Utes
- Cougar defense rose to occasion
- Banged up Jazz get best of Blazers
- Jones' joy for life remembered
- Fantasy is reality for BYU professor
- Hall mouths off about hate of Utah
869 - Cougars beat Utes in overtime475
- Max Hall issues apology146
- BYU is champion of the state137
- Man trapped in Nutty Putty cave dies117
- Cave to be sealed with body inside116
- Rivalry Week is highly profane90
- Hall's legacy measured today79
- Hall's pain reflects self-betrayal69
- Utes fall to Seattle U. at home65
We learned a bit more about the basketball team after this weekend.
There are 14 BYU players from Salt Lake Valley. And there are four Utah...
Latest comments
Does anyone remember the ute fans jumping on Derek Stevenson dad at an game?...
For what it's worth, I think Corroon would make an outstanding governor of...
Dear Cherie and Leon and Family, We love you and appreciate your strength...
What ever happened to the love of the game? This is one of the best rivalries...
Thanks big brother???? ha ha ha. You weren't even competitive for 30 years.
Well said, Amy, and spot on. Hall has shown his true colors. It's what a...
I find it interesting that many of the same people who say that we can't...
None of these teams is going to be easy. They all have fine football...
Max, no apology was necessary, but the apology was polically correct. If...
Very good piece of writing, Amy. You summarized what many of us have been...
Advertisements
And I'll leave it you you U T E S to completely miss the point that it was over a year ago.
I will also give you the right to whine, but don't whine and ask everyone to respect you as a man.
My 7-year old daughter whines more than you U T E fans, about things that are just as meaningless.