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FLDS classes to focus on 'core strengths'
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Angelic State. | 2:09 a.m. July 31, 2008
Wow, the state teaching morals, ethics and principals. Is it me or does it not
get any better than that!
Amazed | 5:10 a.m. July 31, 2008
Unbelievable that the State of Texas would presume to teach tolerance to these
"different" people that they have rounded up, separated children,
literally babies from their mothers, in an effort to impose conformity with the
"norm". This whole expensive debacle is about "intollerance"
for a society that is centered around the family.
Thomas | 5:24 a.m. July 31, 2008
The problem is that it is others who need totolerate the FlDS. This course
appears to be drawn up by that quack, Dr. Perry, who admiited that all he knew
about the FLDS was about he heard about in the media.
Comments continue below
Kumbaya | 5:26 a.m. July 31, 2008
The designers of this class knew very well that this group prides itself on
staying separate and above the world around it. The emphasis in the curriculum
on becoming "tolerant of different races and cultures," appears to be
a direct attack on the group's core supremacist beliefs, which makes me
question whether that's what this is all about. Is it the perceived racism
that's at issue or the alleged child abuse? If the issue was child sexual
abuse, and if the FLDS are really a bunch of child molesters, like the state
claims, why isn't stopping child sexual abuse the primary emphasis of these
so called parenting classes? Obviously the state has a different agenda.
How ironic | 6:13 a.m. July 31, 2008
"Promising to teach tolerance, awareness and respect of others..."
Perhaps they could teach this to the state of Texas.
Perhaps they could teach this to the state of Texas.
zxcvbnm | 6:13 a.m. July 31, 2008
Yep........Tolerance of other cultures should do the trick.
Now all we need is for the citizens of ElDorado, and the members of CPS to sign up.
How about a class on reading a State ID and the definition of "emminent danger".
Then there's the class on basic math, but I guess we will save that one for after graduation... kind of a "college level" exercise.
Bro | 6:17 a.m. July 31, 2008
How refreshing that the FLDS will finally learn to stop brainwashing their
children by submitting to government approved brainwashing.
Hypocrites! | 6:55 a.m. July 31, 2008
This is absolutely ridiculous. The FLDS should be teaching the classes, and all
the STATE officials involved in this raid should be taking the tolerance
classes.
Pull yours heads out, Texas!
Pull yours heads out, Texas!
samhill | 7:09 a.m. July 31, 2008
Well, I'm pleased to see from the preceding comments that I'm not
alone in questioning this latest action by the officials of Texas.
While I admit to being sympathetic with the ostensible intentions of attempting to broaden the cultural and social horizons of the FLDS children, not to mention the parents, I am EXTREMELY leery of the idea of the state setting the standards. Especially in this "Big Brother", draconian manner.
Using someone’s children as potential hostages (after amply demonstrating their willingness and power to take them hostage) in order to enforce the teaching by the parents of the State’s ideals of "Attachment," "Self-Regulation," "Affiliation," "Attunement," "Tolerance" and "Respect" seems to be just the latest example of egregiously overreaching application of governmental regulation.
In terms of promoting respect and tolerance for divergent beliefs and cultures, I can't imagine a more blatantly hypocritical method.
While I admit to being sympathetic with the ostensible intentions of attempting to broaden the cultural and social horizons of the FLDS children, not to mention the parents, I am EXTREMELY leery of the idea of the state setting the standards. Especially in this "Big Brother", draconian manner.
Using someone’s children as potential hostages (after amply demonstrating their willingness and power to take them hostage) in order to enforce the teaching by the parents of the State’s ideals of "Attachment," "Self-Regulation," "Affiliation," "Attunement," "Tolerance" and "Respect" seems to be just the latest example of egregiously overreaching application of governmental regulation.
In terms of promoting respect and tolerance for divergent beliefs and cultures, I can't imagine a more blatantly hypocritical method.
Cats | 7:22 a.m. July 31, 2008
Once again, the FLDS are blogging under different names and trying to make us
all believe that they are terrible victims.
Teaching children to be racist and frightened of everyone around them is a form of abuse. Isolating people and refusing to allow them the freedom to choose their own life's course is a form a abuse.
Raising children in a warped culture being lead by false prophets with out-of-control sex drive and megalomaniac egos is a form of abuse. Forcing women to wear weird clothes and bizarre hairdos is a form of abuse. Teaching children to fear the color red is a form of abuse. How about forcing them to watch animals being tortured to death.
Warren Jeffs has publicly stated (on tape) that he is NOT a prophet, he NEVER was a prophet and he is one of the MOST WICKED men of this dispensation. Sounds like for the first time in his life he is telling the truth.
This is a culture full of MOSTLY good people who need help. The State of Texas is trying to do that. Due to the "traditions of their fathers" these people have been lead astray for many years.
Teaching children to be racist and frightened of everyone around them is a form of abuse. Isolating people and refusing to allow them the freedom to choose their own life's course is a form a abuse.
Raising children in a warped culture being lead by false prophets with out-of-control sex drive and megalomaniac egos is a form of abuse. Forcing women to wear weird clothes and bizarre hairdos is a form of abuse. Teaching children to fear the color red is a form of abuse. How about forcing them to watch animals being tortured to death.
Warren Jeffs has publicly stated (on tape) that he is NOT a prophet, he NEVER was a prophet and he is one of the MOST WICKED men of this dispensation. Sounds like for the first time in his life he is telling the truth.
This is a culture full of MOSTLY good people who need help. The State of Texas is trying to do that. Due to the "traditions of their fathers" these people have been lead astray for many years.
SLC gal | 7:28 a.m. July 31, 2008
Tolerance, awareness and respect of others???? This is TEXAS teaching this to
the FLDS? Tell me, did stealing their children, and tramplling all over their
rights fall under "awareness", "respect", or does that count
as just being "tolerant"?
zxcvbnm | 7:29 a.m. July 31, 2008
Where is the Texas hotline for intolerance. I may start making annonymous calls right away. Darn...I
need to go get an unregistered cell phone.
Anonymous | 8:02 a.m. July 31, 2008
This class seems insane. It's basically saying we are going to teach you to
love and respect other cultures. I live in Texas, they need to learn this. I
mean there is a school in Houston that welcomed two Muslim parents to teach
about the culture and the parents went crazy. They didn't want their kids
learning about that. I think all parents in Texas should take this course, if
having a respect for other cultures in a requirement for having children
larry | 8:17 a.m. July 31, 2008
The CPS, The JUDGE and all related DPS should be taking a tolerance class. most
Texans are not like THe Crazy's in CPS and law enforcement. I am a 6th
generation Texan and am applalled at the way this has been handled.
Rita | 8:21 a.m. July 31, 2008
It is only 8 hours??????~!!!!!!
8 years would have been better. There isn't much they can learn about being a good parent in 8 hours.
8 years would have been better. There isn't much they can learn about being a good parent in 8 hours.
Kumbaya | 8:47 a.m. July 31, 2008
Cats, if those things are abuse, then why doesn't the state of Texas just
come out and say so? If the state of Texas has an issue with the way FLDS
children are raised, why doesn't the state of Texas create and enforce
mandates for all Texas families to prevent that kind of allegedly harmful
upbringing? What's needed here is more transparency into what exactly the
state of Texas is up to. That way, other non-FLDS families, who perhaps raise
their children under similar, perhaps ultra-orthodox, or separatist, principles,
will know for sure, whether they are at risk of having their children taken from
then, and can take the necessary precautions, i.e. leaving the state of Texas.
BobP | 9:04 a.m. July 31, 2008
Is 8 hours enough to do a decent job of brainwashing?
zxcvbnm | 10:03 a.m. July 31, 2008
Just for the record....I am a Texan. My family has been in this Syate since it was a republic and I live on the land that has been in my family since the 1870s'.
If the FLDS have been here for six months they are Texans as well and have every right to express themselves...........besides they are americans.
To minimize an opinion by demonizing the messenger is as intolerant as the State of Texas has been.
I am a Texan.....will die a Texan......and am ashamed of this State. The States actions were barbaric...........the end does not justify the means.
Cats | 10:06 a.m. July 31, 2008
Kumbaya: I agree with you that some definition would useful. The State of
Texas is doing their best under very difficult circumstances with a situation
they have never dealt with before. They have made a few mistakes, but
they're doing their best. Utah and Arizona have more experience, but have
also had a difficult time with enforcement because of the sheer numbers involved
and the secretive way these people operate. This has been going on for
generations.
However, we all need to take some responsibility now and try to help these people transition into a better life. Things have just gone way too far and society needs to do something to prevent further abuse of innocent women and children. Some of the boys and men are victims, too.
The States of Texas, Utah and Arizona and other states as well as the Federal Government need to follow through this time. I really hope these people can now, finally, come out of the shadows and get some help.
However, we all need to take some responsibility now and try to help these people transition into a better life. Things have just gone way too far and society needs to do something to prevent further abuse of innocent women and children. Some of the boys and men are victims, too.
The States of Texas, Utah and Arizona and other states as well as the Federal Government need to follow through this time. I really hope these people can now, finally, come out of the shadows and get some help.
Kate | 10:14 a.m. July 31, 2008
Kumbaya, there are laws against racism motivated crimes. There are laws against
animal cruelty. There are kidnapping and human trafficking laws. There are
laws against physical butality. And you should know by now that there are laws
prohibiting sex with children. Texas is probably just trying to educate these
parents so if they have any decency they will teach their children how to live
within the law and treat others with humanity despite their beliefs.
Un-needed | 10:43 a.m. July 31, 2008
The FLDS don't need forced diversity training. I don't even know what
grounds the state has for forcing them to take parenting classes, no matter how
'progressive' the classes are. If I were one of the parents I would
view that as an insult, and demand to know what grounds the state has for making
me personally take a parenting class. Does the state require all parents to take
one? No? Only FLDS parents? That's discrimination. Oh, but you say, the
FLDS are evil and brainwashed. Well, that's stereotyping. You don't
know that every parent who lived at YFZ was evil and brainwashed. That's
just bigotted assumption.
From the Creek | 10:57 a.m. July 31, 2008
It's funny that they're trying to teach tolerance of other
races/cultures. Just how much tolerance did Rick Perry claim he had for us? If
it wasn't for the outright hypocrisy here, it wouldn't bother me so
much. Just so you know, we are tolerant of other races, cultures, and beliefs.
If you'd try to get an understanding of our beliefs from us instead of our
enemies, you'll find a rather different story told.
Kate:
Those things you talk about aren't the beliefs of the FLDS. Those are what the anti-FLDS crusaders claim we believe, and of which some are guilty themselves. Look on Truthwillprevail about Dan Fischer if you want to learn about what I consider abuse.
I think you said it well when you said we should "teach their children how to live within the law and treat others with humanity despite their beliefs." How about treating us the same way?
Kate:
Those things you talk about aren't the beliefs of the FLDS. Those are what the anti-FLDS crusaders claim we believe, and of which some are guilty themselves. Look on Truthwillprevail about Dan Fischer if you want to learn about what I consider abuse.
I think you said it well when you said we should "teach their children how to live within the law and treat others with humanity despite their beliefs." How about treating us the same way?
zxcvbnm | 10:58 a.m. July 31, 2008
"Those people" don't need our help help.
They want to worship the God of their choice as guaranteed by our constitution.
Just leave them alone. They can't run to Utah to avoid intolerance like their ancestors did. They are doing the best they can to stay away from "normal" America......where ever that is.
Lots of good comments | 11:07 a.m. July 31, 2008
Lots of good comments here--and a whole lot less nastiness! Good.
I am NOT FLDS and not from Utah. But I have had experience with CPS and it's heavy-handed treatment of parents with whom it doesn't agree. My issue happened to be health, nutrition, and homeschool for my Down Syndrome son--we won, but barely and with great effort and fear. We held out and we have a 21 year old DS son who has read the Scriptures for himself, who has NO health problems, has not had to have antibiotics since our fight with CPS, and is the healthiest most functional DS person in our community.
My point is this--where do we draw the line at allowing CPS or any other government entity to decide what we may or may not teach our children?
In spite of some very obvious problems the FLDS have, many of the issues being raised in these comments are simply NOT our business. There are many cultural lifestyles in America that we might not agree with, but we don't remove children from their parents. There are genuinely VERY FEW reasons that we should do so.
CPS frequently misses those cases and goes hogwild on others.
I am NOT FLDS and not from Utah. But I have had experience with CPS and it's heavy-handed treatment of parents with whom it doesn't agree. My issue happened to be health, nutrition, and homeschool for my Down Syndrome son--we won, but barely and with great effort and fear. We held out and we have a 21 year old DS son who has read the Scriptures for himself, who has NO health problems, has not had to have antibiotics since our fight with CPS, and is the healthiest most functional DS person in our community.
My point is this--where do we draw the line at allowing CPS or any other government entity to decide what we may or may not teach our children?
In spite of some very obvious problems the FLDS have, many of the issues being raised in these comments are simply NOT our business. There are many cultural lifestyles in America that we might not agree with, but we don't remove children from their parents. There are genuinely VERY FEW reasons that we should do so.
CPS frequently misses those cases and goes hogwild on others.
re; cats | 11:11 a.m. July 31, 2008
''However, we all need to take some responsibility now and try to help
these people transition into a better life. Things have just gone way too far
and society needs to do something to prevent further abuse of innocent women and
children. Some of the boys and men are victims, too''
Like put those who have kidnapped the women and children in jail--at lest hold them accountable for their actions. Texas Ag, CPS and judge Walter would like to make as many victims as possible.
Like put those who have kidnapped the women and children in jail--at lest hold them accountable for their actions. Texas Ag, CPS and judge Walter would like to make as many victims as possible.
From the Creek | 11:10 a.m. July 31, 2008
Cats,
What sort of "better" life do you want for me? Having been raised with the beliefs I have from birth, you may just as well convince a Muslim that he would have a better life if he becomes a Jew.
"Raising children in a warped culture being lead by false prophets with out-of-control sex drive and megalomaniac egos is a form of abuse. Forcing women to wear weird clothes and bizarre hairdos is a form of abuse. Teaching children to fear the color red is a form of abuse. How about forcing them to watch animals being tortured to death."
===============
I can claim your prophet is false. What does that have to do with anything? You only know him from his enemies, while I know him personally.
We're not forced to wear weird clothes; you'd have to strap me down and tie me up before I'd wear the hideous stuff I see claimed to be "clothes." Just because I don't wear red clothing doesn't mean I'm afraid of the color.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding watching animals being tortured to death. I've never witnessed or heard of such a thing.
What sort of "better" life do you want for me? Having been raised with the beliefs I have from birth, you may just as well convince a Muslim that he would have a better life if he becomes a Jew.
"Raising children in a warped culture being lead by false prophets with out-of-control sex drive and megalomaniac egos is a form of abuse. Forcing women to wear weird clothes and bizarre hairdos is a form of abuse. Teaching children to fear the color red is a form of abuse. How about forcing them to watch animals being tortured to death."
===============
I can claim your prophet is false. What does that have to do with anything? You only know him from his enemies, while I know him personally.
We're not forced to wear weird clothes; you'd have to strap me down and tie me up before I'd wear the hideous stuff I see claimed to be "clothes." Just because I don't wear red clothing doesn't mean I'm afraid of the color.
I don't know what you're talking about regarding watching animals being tortured to death. I've never witnessed or heard of such a thing.
Anonymous | 11:17 a.m. July 31, 2008
The judgte ordered standard parenting classes. Why isn't CPS giving
standard parenting classes? A parenting class based on the parent's
religion?
What's next, different classes for hispanics, blacks and whites? After all, those parents are often from different cultures?
I guess CPS has a little trouble with the law. This will be one of the many examples of how CPS was biased against FLDS.
What's next, different classes for hispanics, blacks and whites? After all, those parents are often from different cultures?
I guess CPS has a little trouble with the law. This will be one of the many examples of how CPS was biased against FLDS.
Quilter | 11:34 a.m. July 31, 2008
Oh, how wonderful that Texas is going to "teach" these families how to
be like "normal" people in this society!! This whole ugly episode has
been based nothing but religious bigotry. I agree, the Texas CPS and Judge
Walther should be taking lessons from the FLDS on how to raise children. From
all the photos I have seen, the FLDS are better housekeepers than me, work
harder than I do, and care deeply about their children. If those children were
removed because they were in "imminent" danger, then so should every
child who lives in public housing projects. Guns, violence, and drugs are ever
present there, truly those children might be in imminent danger. So why not
remove them??
realitycheck | 11:52 a.m. July 31, 2008
This will do nothing to solve the problems in the FLDS. It will go in one ear
and out the other of the parents.
What they need to do is give classes to the children. The children somehow need to gain an understanding that:
they have many choices in life - this can be accomplished by watching documentaries on various career paths
education is a RIGHT not a privilege - visiting college campuses and lectures by college students persuing various majors
Family is more important than religion - not sure how to do this one - it's too bad it's even an issue.
I'm sure I'll get "my children are my business" comments from this, and normally I would totally agree. But the FLDS are in fact RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS. And women and especially children are always abused in religious extremist cultures.
Kumbaya - this is the point you are missing. Raising children in a religious extremist environment is never fair for the children. It ALWAYS removes free will and leads to a predetermined future. By it's very nature, it is abusive.
So how do you fix that? That's the real question.
What they need to do is give classes to the children. The children somehow need to gain an understanding that:
they have many choices in life - this can be accomplished by watching documentaries on various career paths
education is a RIGHT not a privilege - visiting college campuses and lectures by college students persuing various majors
Family is more important than religion - not sure how to do this one - it's too bad it's even an issue.
I'm sure I'll get "my children are my business" comments from this, and normally I would totally agree. But the FLDS are in fact RELIGIOUS EXTREMISTS. And women and especially children are always abused in religious extremist cultures.
Kumbaya - this is the point you are missing. Raising children in a religious extremist environment is never fair for the children. It ALWAYS removes free will and leads to a predetermined future. By it's very nature, it is abusive.
So how do you fix that? That's the real question.
Mack | 12:04 p.m. July 31, 2008
I'm not FLDS, but I know many of them, and I'm familiar with their
beliefs, traditions, families, etc., and I'll stand in defense of their
beliefs in spite of the fact that Cats and other hate-mongers and distributors
spew out a torrent of lies and misinformation. Cats seems to make quite a few
allegations that come right from the Flora Jessop playbook.
Do I want to live just like the FLDS - No, but that doesn't mean that I ahould allow their freedoms to be stripped from them, and neither should any freedom loving u.s. Citizen. They have rights, and those rights have been just about as thoroughly abused as it gets. AS A PEOPLE they are innocent of what they've been charged with. I know better than to believe all the juiced up media claims.
There are individuals who may be guilty of crimes, and I think that crimes should be punished, but justice cannot be trumped.
People should stop acting like a lynch mob, and take notice of the FULL STORY before making rash judgments.
Do I want to live just like the FLDS - No, but that doesn't mean that I ahould allow their freedoms to be stripped from them, and neither should any freedom loving u.s. Citizen. They have rights, and those rights have been just about as thoroughly abused as it gets. AS A PEOPLE they are innocent of what they've been charged with. I know better than to believe all the juiced up media claims.
There are individuals who may be guilty of crimes, and I think that crimes should be punished, but justice cannot be trumped.
People should stop acting like a lynch mob, and take notice of the FULL STORY before making rash judgments.
Mack | 12:05 p.m. July 31, 2008
What Texas did was based on fear and prejudice. CPS and certain individuals and
groups in Texas are guilty of gross crimes, both in the FLDS YFZ Ranch raid, and
many other instances. Where are you Cat/Realitycheck, and the other intolerants
when these injustices occur? We don't hear from you, then?
I call that bigotry and hypocrisy of the worst kind.
BTW, I think this thread has had some great comments. Keep it up, and Cats/Realitycheck....... I recommend that you take the tolerance classes too.
I call that bigotry and hypocrisy of the worst kind.
BTW, I think this thread has had some great comments. Keep it up, and Cats/Realitycheck....... I recommend that you take the tolerance classes too.
Mack | 12:09 p.m. July 31, 2008
Realitycheck, your statement:
"...Raising children in a religious extremist environment is never fair for the children. It ALWAYS removes free will and leads to a predetermined future. By it's very nature, it is abusive"...
What planet did you fall from? Your statement would have everyone believe that the Amish, Mennonites, Jesuits, Jews, Muslims, and other strict societies are ALL BAD.
Do you realize that your statement labels you as the definition of 'Bigot, incarnate?'
"...Raising children in a religious extremist environment is never fair for the children. It ALWAYS removes free will and leads to a predetermined future. By it's very nature, it is abusive"...
What planet did you fall from? Your statement would have everyone believe that the Amish, Mennonites, Jesuits, Jews, Muslims, and other strict societies are ALL BAD.
Do you realize that your statement labels you as the definition of 'Bigot, incarnate?'
Shirl | 12:19 p.m. July 31, 2008
If the FLDS have nothing to hide and say their lifestyle is good and pure, then
why don't we have camera's in their homes for about 6 months and see
what their day to day actions are! That way if I hear the term "keep
sweet", I will know that the people writing these books are right. I have
a hard time with any religion who would separate a man from his family for
several years. That isn't heresay, it was from the horses mouth when one
of the father's came forward to claim his children after the raid and said
he hadn't seen them for several years....is that normal????
realitycheck | 12:34 p.m. July 31, 2008
Not at all, Mack. What planet did I fall from? Earth - 2008. Where are you
from? Earth - 1650?
Did you miss the "extremist" part? Don't you realize that there is NOTHING good when something is taken to extremes? Do you really believe that children have any choices in an extremist environment?
The very nature of extremist enviroments is a removal of civil rights.
How can you possibly believe that children have free will in an environment where all free will is removed? That makes no sense.
Are all the religions you stated ALL BAD? No - but if taken to EXTREMES, then yes they are.
Are you saying that children raised in an extremist muslim environment are ok? Next time they strap on a bomb and blow up innocent people, you remember your answer. Why do you think the media differentiates between moderate muslims and extremist muslims.
Is the Amish environment abusive? I don't know enough about them, but if they do not promote free will to their children, then YES they are abusive.
You can do whatever you want to your children, obviously, but if you FORCE them to adopt your lifestyle, that's abuse. (my opinion).
Did you miss the "extremist" part? Don't you realize that there is NOTHING good when something is taken to extremes? Do you really believe that children have any choices in an extremist environment?
The very nature of extremist enviroments is a removal of civil rights.
How can you possibly believe that children have free will in an environment where all free will is removed? That makes no sense.
Are all the religions you stated ALL BAD? No - but if taken to EXTREMES, then yes they are.
Are you saying that children raised in an extremist muslim environment are ok? Next time they strap on a bomb and blow up innocent people, you remember your answer. Why do you think the media differentiates between moderate muslims and extremist muslims.
Is the Amish environment abusive? I don't know enough about them, but if they do not promote free will to their children, then YES they are abusive.
You can do whatever you want to your children, obviously, but if you FORCE them to adopt your lifestyle, that's abuse. (my opinion).
I'm not a FLDS fan | 12:44 p.m. July 31, 2008
but these classes look stupid and seem to be a waste of time. The real issues
are being swept under the rug. Why don't they teach classes on human
sexuality and development and why it is wrong to force barely pubescent girls
into forced adult sexual relationships? (i.e. rape)
From the Creek | 12:55 p.m. July 31, 2008
"You can do whatever you want to your children, obviously, but if you FORCE
them to adopt your lifestyle, that's abuse. (my opinion)."
============
The word "force" is where we seem to differ, realitycheck. I agree, forcing a child to live to my standards would be wrong. We don't force. We guide and teach, and everyone of us has to choose whether or not we want this lifestyle. How is it force if in every step of your child's life, you love him and show him through example that the way you live brings happiness?
If you were to meet me personally, realitycheck, you'd find me to be one of the most laid-back easygoing and relaxed guys you've ever met.
============
The word "force" is where we seem to differ, realitycheck. I agree, forcing a child to live to my standards would be wrong. We don't force. We guide and teach, and everyone of us has to choose whether or not we want this lifestyle. How is it force if in every step of your child's life, you love him and show him through example that the way you live brings happiness?
If you were to meet me personally, realitycheck, you'd find me to be one of the most laid-back easygoing and relaxed guys you've ever met.
hmmm | 12:56 p.m. July 31, 2008
Normal for a man and wife to divorce???gee, not in the United States where the
divorce rate is over 50%!! What a silly comment that was, probably not even
worth commmenting over. As far as the "keep sweet" goes, look at the
facts of how these women and children acted while in "state custody"
in places not even fit for animals. The FLDS now have nothing to hide as Texas
has spent $750,000.00/home (so far)investigating these people, and have come out
pretty much empty handed.
Mack | 1:04 p.m. July 31, 2008
Reality Check,
Are you familiar with the Amish, other than what you've gotten from the media? Do you know any of them personally? Are you acquainted with what their actual day to day activities and family environment consists of? Some of their beliefs and practices most of 'Us'would consider 'extreme', but their lifestyle produces normal well-adjusted people who are very devoted to their religion.
Do you know any Muslims? I'm not talking jihadis (irhabis, would be the name by which they SHOULD be called), but devout faithful Muslims? Christians label some of their religious customs 'extreme', but that doesn't make Islam 'bad'.
The issue I take with your statement is this: How do 'we' define 'extreme' and not tange ourselves in bigotry, (that too, is extreme).
Are you familiar with the FLDS, other than what you've read in the media? Do you know any of them personally? Are you acquainted with what their actual day to day activities and family environment consists of? If not, then you're making judgment without considering all the facts. I know from actual personal experience that they do NOT remove agency from the individual - it is one of their most basic tenets.
Tolerance!
Are you familiar with the Amish, other than what you've gotten from the media? Do you know any of them personally? Are you acquainted with what their actual day to day activities and family environment consists of? Some of their beliefs and practices most of 'Us'would consider 'extreme', but their lifestyle produces normal well-adjusted people who are very devoted to their religion.
Do you know any Muslims? I'm not talking jihadis (irhabis, would be the name by which they SHOULD be called), but devout faithful Muslims? Christians label some of their religious customs 'extreme', but that doesn't make Islam 'bad'.
The issue I take with your statement is this: How do 'we' define 'extreme' and not tange ourselves in bigotry, (that too, is extreme).
Are you familiar with the FLDS, other than what you've read in the media? Do you know any of them personally? Are you acquainted with what their actual day to day activities and family environment consists of? If not, then you're making judgment without considering all the facts. I know from actual personal experience that they do NOT remove agency from the individual - it is one of their most basic tenets.
Tolerance!
hmmm | 1:12 p.m. July 31, 2008
The only thing EXTREME here is the way Texas has abused these people. The people
of Texas are being duped to go along. $30 million dollars later and they have
to have the AG show up to make sure the "indictments" are made. If
there was any real evidence did he really need to show up??? Where are the
broken bones, the systematic sexual abuse, the incinerators, remember all the
stuff the media used at first to try to justify this?
Oh, yea tolerance | 1:14 p.m. July 31, 2008
I spoke to one of the FLDS this morning. He told me he has tolerance for
everyone.
His words "I hate everyone equally!"
Now that is tolerance!
His words "I hate everyone equally!"
Now that is tolerance!
zxcvbnm | 1:31 p.m. July 31, 2008
Extremist religions...........ok lets educate extremist religions. LDS...not drinking isn't normal, talking about coffee here......you don't let your kids drink coffee and that is their right as Americans.....you are wierd and extreme......classes start at 3pm.
Southern Baptists..........whats with the anti dancing rule.......not normal.........your dance class starts at 5am.
Jehovah Witness...........the no Christmas thing just isn't right......anti Santa therefore anti fat people.......intolerance flows from your veins. The long dresses gotta go too.
Catholics........geez......all thet kneeling and standing is bad for young knees........and the statue worship .......pagan..........class at noon on friday. Lunch will be served and it won't be fish.
Now you Jewish guys are just so abnormal. I know you have been thru a lot with the holocost and everything but hey......teaching kids to wear a beanie makes them stand out. Not fitting in is not good for their self esteme. Class at noon Sunday.....taught by the Taliban.
Hows that for tolerance and conformity?
Cosmo | 1:40 p.m. July 31, 2008
Re:Shirl; how about we place cameras in your house,
maybe we could get some juicy pictures. Are you brain dead?
maybe we could get some juicy pictures. Are you brain dead?
Anonymous | 1:41 p.m. July 31, 2008
It's sad that they have to teach these basic concepts, particulary the part
about the family being a persons most import group affiliation. Obviously, in
the FLDS it is not that way, since they think nothing of taking fathers away
from their families and reassigning them to someone else.
J-man | 1:44 p.m. July 31, 2008
To Hmmmm. You sound an awful lot like Willie Jessop.
Zipporah | 1:51 p.m. July 31, 2008
The FLDS do not fear the color red, Cats. They believe that it is the color
Jesus will wear when he returns and they reserve it for his use out of respect
and reverence.
That you fail to understand this basic concept tells me you don't understand much of anything at all.
That you fail to understand this basic concept tells me you don't understand much of anything at all.
realitycheck | 1:50 p.m. July 31, 2008
Mack - I stated that I don't know much if anything about the Amish. My
understanding is they are fine people. But if they do as the FLDS does, then
they are abusive -
If they force their children to marry a specific person, of their faith, race, nationality, or any other restrictions, they remove free will.
If they do not allow and PROMOTE higher education, they they are short-changing their children and that is abuse.
If the women do not have fully equal rights as the men, then that is a violation of their civl rights.
If they are taught rules beyond morals and laws and told that they must comply or they will "BURN IN HELL" then they are being subject to brainwashing to ensure they adopt your lifestyle, through fear and intimidation. That's abuse.
Granted, these are my opinions. But you cannot dispute the fact that these things do in fact allow or remove free will, and (my opinion) removing the idea of free will in children is abusive.
And yes, I know a lot of muslims. Fine people when moderate. And stop with the bigot comments. I want everyone to have freedom. That ok?
If they force their children to marry a specific person, of their faith, race, nationality, or any other restrictions, they remove free will.
If they do not allow and PROMOTE higher education, they they are short-changing their children and that is abuse.
If the women do not have fully equal rights as the men, then that is a violation of their civl rights.
If they are taught rules beyond morals and laws and told that they must comply or they will "BURN IN HELL" then they are being subject to brainwashing to ensure they adopt your lifestyle, through fear and intimidation. That's abuse.
Granted, these are my opinions. But you cannot dispute the fact that these things do in fact allow or remove free will, and (my opinion) removing the idea of free will in children is abusive.
And yes, I know a lot of muslims. Fine people when moderate. And stop with the bigot comments. I want everyone to have freedom. That ok?
JrzWrld | 1:55 p.m. July 31, 2008
Aaaah. Tolerance - a trigger word for so many people.
Look, I'm not into the state teaching values, but there's values and then there's just being a functional human being. I believe that's what's meant by tolerance in this case.
And if you see tolerance as an ironic subject given the raid on the FLDS, well, the head of the religion married a 12 year old. That kind of thing tends to trigger extreme reactions too.
In any case, these kids, by FLDS members' own estimates have a 50% chance of leaving the religion. What are their odds of surviving in the outside world without the protection of their closed society? How are they going to cope if they're terrified or just simply scornful of people of color, gays, etc.?
I know extreme racists and homophobes of my generation who get along ok inlife. But I don't know any who have actually prospered. It's so limiting. And in the case of the FLDS, it seems like those prejudices are being used as a method of control.
Look, I'm not into the state teaching values, but there's values and then there's just being a functional human being. I believe that's what's meant by tolerance in this case.
And if you see tolerance as an ironic subject given the raid on the FLDS, well, the head of the religion married a 12 year old. That kind of thing tends to trigger extreme reactions too.
In any case, these kids, by FLDS members' own estimates have a 50% chance of leaving the religion. What are their odds of surviving in the outside world without the protection of their closed society? How are they going to cope if they're terrified or just simply scornful of people of color, gays, etc.?
I know extreme racists and homophobes of my generation who get along ok inlife. But I don't know any who have actually prospered. It's so limiting. And in the case of the FLDS, it seems like those prejudices are being used as a method of control.
jrz wrld | 2:05 p.m. July 31, 2008
hmmm
Larry | 2:12 p.m. July 31, 2008
Teaching the FLDS morale structure is a great idea. We need people of good
influence and moral structure within our great country. Not country, hick
breeders. After all, they aren't horses or some sorta dog pedigree farm.
realitycheck | 2:26 p.m. July 31, 2008
by the way, Mack - I am familiar with the FLDS daily activities - they told
their day-to-day activities on their website. And 3/4ths of each day was for
sermons. Very little for actual schooling, of which some is religious based
anyway.
So they get 10 hrs of sermons and 2 hr of actual usable teaching. Yeah - these kids stand a real chance of becoming a scientist or an engineer, or anything else for that matter.
and zxcvbnm - we love your humor. Do you have an actual opinion, or are you just here to make everything a little lighter? You're ok with children being trained from birth to hide from the world?
By the way, few religions actually hide. One of their basic tenets is to make sure they are just as well educated and in positions of power as everyone else, to ensure they remain on fair footing. Perhaps the FLDS could learn from their example.
And From the Creek - previously you stated that you were a college educated FLDS WOMAN. Now you say you are male. Your comments make much more sense now. It's too bad you felt the need to deceive. Habit?
So they get 10 hrs of sermons and 2 hr of actual usable teaching. Yeah - these kids stand a real chance of becoming a scientist or an engineer, or anything else for that matter.
and zxcvbnm - we love your humor. Do you have an actual opinion, or are you just here to make everything a little lighter? You're ok with children being trained from birth to hide from the world?
By the way, few religions actually hide. One of their basic tenets is to make sure they are just as well educated and in positions of power as everyone else, to ensure they remain on fair footing. Perhaps the FLDS could learn from their example.
And From the Creek - previously you stated that you were a college educated FLDS WOMAN. Now you say you are male. Your comments make much more sense now. It's too bad you felt the need to deceive. Habit?
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