Deseret News | Reid calls polygamous communities a form of 'organized crime'

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Reid calls polygamous communities a form of 'organized crime'

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Alex | 12:49 p.m. July 24, 2008

"Polygamy is a crime, why is it being allowed to continue? "

In short, it only remains a crime as long as it is not being prosecuted. Let me explain.

The whole basis for prosecuting polygamy cases is based on proving unlawful cohabitation. After all, no polygamist will register his plural marriage with the state, and hence is not technically committing polygamy. Thus, polygamy without the legal contract merely becomes unlawful cohabitation. Moreover, because cohabitation laws for gays have been struck down in federal courts in some cases, the equal protection clause could quite naturally extend these results to cohabitating heterosexuals (i.e. polygamists).

Meanwhile, the officials can keep the polygamists in a corner, isolated, and alone as long as they don't prosecute them for polygamy. On the other hand, if gays get to marry in this country, it is very likely the crumbling antipolygamy laws could be the next to fall. That would make it officially legal.

Well, that is my perspective, at least.

realitycheck | 12:49 p.m. July 24, 2008

re - Stop inbreeding 10:14am

Actually, this has nothing to do with God, other than that they stopped listening to him - and substituted a man in His place.

The problem is these people allow a mere man (and a bad man at that) to tell them what is right and what is wrong. And it's been going on so long, with Jeffs and his father and probably more, they no longer understand the real right and wrong.

And their minds have been muddied and twisted so they no longer recognize God's voice (their concience) saying "hey - that's wrong - don't do it".

As long as they believe a mere mortal can tell them God's will, instead of listening to God's voice inside them (their concience), they will always be in trouble.

Next time someone tries to force a marriage, reassign a family, kick out a young man, or any of the other rediculous things you all do - try listening to God's voice (your concience) inside you. Guarentee he tells you to not do it.

Stop listening to men - start listening to God. You'll stay out of trouble.

Hatuletoh | 1:02 p.m. July 24, 2008

This is a big 'ol hypothetical, I know, but:

Assuming things like the totally unacceptable issues like child abuse and welfare fraud could be cleared out of polygamous communties, would anyone object to changing the laws to permit bigamy between adults unrelated by blood?

Genuine question.

Comments continue below

Huh | 1:06 p.m. July 24, 2008

RE: Shocked - It is Reid's job to make laws that protect the innocent. Sounds like he is doing a good job.

I just don't understand how anyone can defend the leaders of Polygamist groups that swap 15 yr old girls for favors and that control many families to their own sexual interests.

I dare anyone to put themselves in the placed of the abused, whoever you are, whether that be Father, Mother, child and then try to support these so called religious organizations. Shame on you if you support this abuse.

LDS Member | 1:20 p.m. July 24, 2008

I feel sorry for the children involved in polygamous families. The adults are so in-bread they are probably a brick short of a full load. Never-the-less that old windbag Reid has a lot of gall wasting taxpayers money holding hearings on something he can't do anything to prevent. The citizens of this great nation need to hold the clowns in Washington accountable for their actions and vote the whole bunch out.

What?? | 1:33 p.m. July 24, 2008

So we have a Mormon calling what the FLDS is doing wrong. Where did the FLDS come from? The Mormons practiced polygamy, that's where the FLDS gets it from. It was wrong when Mormons did it also. Their "Prophets" told them it was okay while they practiced it also. This is Hypocrisy at it's finest.

Alex | 1:34 p.m. July 24, 2008

Hatuletoh:

"Assuming things like the totally unacceptable issues like child abuse and welfare fraud could be cleared out of polygamous communties, would anyone object to changing the laws to permit bigamy between adults unrelated by blood? "

No objection here. (And no, I am not planning to practice, nor would I encourage anybody to practice polygamy.) Polygamy has essentially become a crime in name only. Cohabitation laws are being thrown out by the courts, and the polygamists don't even register their plural marriages with the state.

The only reason for maintaining antipolygamy laws is so they can hold them over the heads of those who practice it. They don't enforce it. If they did, the laws might soon get struck down by the courts since cohabitation laws are already being torn apart constitutionally.

Meanwhile, it is the stigma of committing a crime that keeps polygamists isolated, pointed at, and not believed. The mounting pressure pushes them to become more and more secretive about it, which is fertile ground for what we are seeing with Jeffs.

Go Harry | 1:50 p.m. July 24, 2008

Reid is absolutely correct. The Jeffs, The Jessops, the Kingstons--are corrupt and criminal. Again and again they lie, cheat, commit tax and welfare fraud and rape underage girls. The Kingstons own and manage one of the state's most dangerous and exploitive coal mines; they operate a trucking firm with a well-known record of serious safety infractions; they beat their children. The list goes on.

These polygamous families are Utah's version of The Sopranos. It's time to stop letting them hide their crimes behind the cloak of freedom of religion.

Non-Utah Mormon | 1:54 p.m. July 24, 2008

I'm most surprised by those who have foisted themselves to the leadership of the LDS Church and determined that Harry Reid isn't fit to be a Mormon. I wasn't aware that the privilege of determining worthiness was extended to so many.

Congress is organized crime? Sounds like a bit of anarchism coming from the patriots in Utah. I always thought Congress was elected by the people. And the Utah Congressional members have been re-elected how many times? So who is to blame for their record of service?

A Whore | 2:08 p.m. July 24, 2008

Which is the worst crime?..
Having sex partners and calling them "wives";
or having sex partner and calling them girl friends?

Alex | 2:06 p.m. July 24, 2008

While I have compassion for the plight of the polygamists stuck in this mess, I have very little compassion for Jeffs, the five under indictment, any others doing the same thing, and Harry Reid.

I totally agree that what Jeffs and some others have done here is like organized crime, but I don't believe the same statement can be fairly applied to those practicing polygamy in general. People all over this country practice de facto polygamy via multiple partners with no stigma of being a criminal to live with. Should a person who has had sexual relations with multiple persons in their lifetime be said to participate in organized crime?

to hatuletoh | 2:11 p.m. July 24, 2008

Good to have you back commenting from a... tourists point of view. Nice name.

Ralph | 2:24 p.m. July 24, 2008

The world cut out a piece of others world to make a nation for the jews, why not cut out a piece of USA or Mexico and make a nation for the FLDS.

For sure | 2:26 p.m. July 24, 2008

If anyone would know about crime it would be Las Vegas and its people.

realitycheck | 2:28 p.m. July 24, 2008

the hearing should be called "religious fanatic polygamy", since many polygamists are fine.

It just happens that some of those practicing polygamy are doing a whole bunch of bad things too. So since they have one thing in common (they think polygamy is God's will) then the focus became polygamy.

Congress would do better just addressing the actual crimes (such as underage marriages, child labor/slavery, etc) - civil rights violations (willful brainwashing through never-ending preaching, isolation and restriction of members, breaking up of families, etc.) - and fiscal crimes (welfare fraud, etc) rather than using polygamy. But since there are different groups that do some of these crimes, but FLDS does ALL of them, it's easier to say this is a polygamy issue.

And no, I don't think anyone really cares about polygamy - but when a group like FLDS does all these bad things, and tries to hide form the world -something needs to be done. Easiest to just categorize them a religious fanatic polygamists.

If you other polygamists want to freely practice your plural lifestyle in plain view, I suggest you do something about FLDS and their kind, as they are giving you all a REALLY bad name.

tigerlily | 2:33 p.m. July 24, 2008

cats: how is polygamy immoral and degrading to women? if that was true why did the women choose to go back to the compound and they were given a choice to leave?

tigerlily | 2:35 p.m. July 24, 2008

not a mormon polygamist:: the flds are NOT mormon.

What are crimes? | 2:59 p.m. July 24, 2008

I think everyone can agree that certain things are wrong but most laws are based on mass opinion and a desire to control others. Drug use, polygamy and many other behaviors have been accepted in other societies that have functioned just fine. The revered Founding Fathers of this nation were criminals in the eyes of the British. Many of the laws passed since the foundation of this narion are unconstitutional. Mormons are familiar with the story of Nephi committing murder according to the law of his day. Of course he never got caught. He took the servant of Laban with him to make sure he didn't get caught.

No one should be forced into polygamy, but if they want to practice it, choosing freely, leave them alone. Mainstream mormons would be practicing polygamy to this day if they had not been persecuted for the practice.

j-j | 3:01 p.m. July 24, 2008

For all the world to see: We lash out viciously, furociously even, to mark the den of vipers! When in reality we are only showing them ourselves! The TRUTH WILL PREVAIL! It has never failed! Will you?

Granny T. | 3:11 p.m. July 24, 2008

Get a grip. Tax evasion, welfare fraud, bigamy and child abuse are crimes. Don't compare apples to oranges. Profiling a group of people for their religious beliefs is unconstitutional. But criminal activity in any group should be stopped and the abusers should be punished

Another St. George Resident | 3:15 p.m. July 24, 2008

THE FLDS ARE VERY SELECTIVE IN THE LAWS THEY DECIDE TO OBEY... they claim to follow Joseph Smith's teachings BUT completely ignore the 12the Article of Faith... you know, the one about "obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law".

ADDITIONALLY,

Utah's attorney general (Shurtleff) and the Washington County Sheriff (Smith) have completely ignored the atrocities going on in the FLDS community.

Granny T. | 3:19 p.m. July 24, 2008

To: FLDS
I'm glad you brought that up. NO Mormon anybodies should be throwing rocks or being mean to any Polyg kids. That is soooo wrong and I hope the parents of these kids will teach their children to handle differences better that that. After all the real name is "The Church of JESUS Christ".

Right On | 3:41 p.m. July 24, 2008

Sen. Reid is right on, regarding thse crumy leaders of this false led sect. Clean up the crimes they commit, ala subsidys and all of the freebis they get. Let them support their own decietful lifestlye, with their own money. Jail their leaders, all of them, and then let the peasants decide how they want to live, on their own or in society.

Alex | 3:50 p.m. July 24, 2008

This Mormon and many others like me won't throw rocks at polygamists. My forefathers, whom I love and revere, practiced polygamy under great duress. I have a photo of my 4th great grandfather in a chain gang in jail for trying to visit his plural wife rather than letting her hang in the wind.

I will, however, throw rocks at those who commit abuse, fraud, etc.

Wade | 3:59 p.m. July 24, 2008

Just have to say, LDS have been around since what, mid-19th century? Pretty sure they did not INVENT polygamy.

Phantom Panther: Reid, as a member of the Democratic party, should automatically hold the position that, what was it? "When it comes to sex, anything goes"? That's just about the most blatantly stereotypical comment I've heard all day, and this is a post on a Deseret News article...

Bottom line, it's against the law, and Reid's doing his job by attracting attention to it. Kudos.

j-j | 4:01 p.m. July 24, 2008

May I take a "very narrow look" (to quote Utah's top cop) and see anything I want! Even if it doesn't quite fit. I'm sure that they are perpetrators of every crime there is! I'm sure that if we take them all down we surely can find one or two that might stick. Then it will be OK, wouldn't it?

OR, I wonder what distraction Harry's War is for?

I do hope he can restore the Constitution before it goes that far!

Gordon | 4:06 p.m. July 24, 2008

Take a cultural anthropology class and you will find that polygamy has been a near universal practice in human societies. The American Indians, East Indians, Chinese, Japanese, Polynesians, Pre-Roman Europeans, Hebrews including Arabs, Eskimos, Africans of all tribes, etc., etc. either practiced polygamy in the past or still do.

The pagan Romans gave us celibacy and monogamy.

Polygamy, or plural marriage--its more spiritual form, is found throughout that Holy Bible which present monogamous, Roman-ized Christians revere.

If the North American Man-Boy Love Association (NAMBLA) can be un-prosecuted and serial polygamists (one sex partner after another) such as Bill Clinton go un-prosecuted, and homosexuality, which is illegal in many states, goes un-prosecuted, isn't it the height of hypocrisy to focus on polygamists?

They obviously don't have enough political clout.

Welfare fraud, physical abuse, forced marriage should be prosecuted, but simple polygamy should not unless you are going to uphold the homosexuality, pederasty and adultery laws.

Are Muslims allowed to have their four Quranic wives in America?

Jon Allen | 4:14 p.m. July 24, 2008

Polgamy is absolutely NOT ï¿½organized crimeï¿½ as Harry Reid argues. Senator Reid ought to be ashamed of himself. Let me give you 2 reasons I think Senator Reid is harping on this issue just now.

Now Harry Reid is also a mainstream Mormon, and mainstream Momons are often eager to dissociate themselves from the polygamist offshoots of Mormonism because it makes them look bad. So I suspect this is part of what is motivating Reid.

Second, Mitt Romney is a strong possibility as the VP nominee for McCain. Reid know this, and in his died in the wool Democrat heart, heï¿½s going to make this an issue now, because he he knows that many people incorrectly assume that Mitt is associated with polygamist Mormons. Now, howï¿½s that for a little peak into Senator Reidï¿½s real motivations.

He knows polygmay isnï¿½t synonymous with organized crime. Thatï¿½s ludicrous. The vast majority of polygamists throughout the world are peace loving people. But Senator Reid is determined to demonize them for political purposes. And I thought Democrats were supposed to stand up for oppressed minorities? Only when it suits their politics I guess.

Shame on Harry Reid!

Vern | 4:14 p.m. July 24, 2008

I find some of the commments posted to be a display of ignorance and biggotry. And it isn't just the comments posted here--journalists do the same.

If what is said about the polygamist were to be said about African/Americans, there would be hell to pay. Ask Don Imus--he lost his job for that. It is open season on the polygamists and has been for years. Harry Reid is on a witch-hunt. I know someone who has visited the YFZ Ranch and they said that it wasn't what the media potrayed it to be. It would certainly be better than the lives of millions of Americans who live in the slums. There they have hard drugs, molesting, rape, murder and parental abandonment.

Keep in mind that the media always portrays the dark side of these issues. I have knows polygamist that were happy, normal people. I have known validictorians, student body presidents and successful business people. Most of these people don't want Harry to rescue them.

The forced marriages, welfare fraud, tax evasion and so on needs to stop. Let's use sugical intruments not shotguns to solve these problems.

Wow... | 4:17 p.m. July 24, 2008

strong words there coming from a senator. Especially from someone representing a State with Organized Crime reputation.

I may not agree with the FLDS people, but they are people just like the rest of us, maybe a little misguided but am I gonna go out of my way to persecute them? I don't think so...

realitycheck | 4:24 p.m. July 24, 2008

this is a quote from a reporter that was at the hearings:

"Willie Jessop, an FLDS member who at one point came close enough to the witness table that Capitol Police officers in the room moved forward, said the witnesses all have a vendetta against the group."

Anyone still think that Willie Jessop isn't trying to intimidate witnesses?

Let's take 'em down for the women and children's sake. Willie is TYPICAL FLDS male adult. Always intimidating people to enforce his and his cohorts ways.

Sounds fishy | 4:25 p.m. July 24, 2008

I thought "Hillbillies"comment--"defend, deny, justify" sounds like a call to arms for all polygamous people. Don't know if that's true, but it sure sounds like a lot of people from the polygamous sects are responding to this sight to do just what "hillbillies" said.

I'm grateful for Harry Reid's efforts. Keep up the good work. May this land eventually rest from crimes and those who perpetrate them for their own greed and gain.

realitycheck | 4:29 p.m. July 24, 2008

re - Jon Allen 4:14pm

as I said before - the only reason they are calling this a polygamy hearing is because it's shorthand for fanatical religion abuse - since most fanatical religions practice both polygamy and abuse. But it's the abuse that's the real issue. That and not supporting all the children you people keep pumping out - and all the civil rights violations - and child slavery - and educational abandonment - and family "reassignments" - and all the other crap that you insist on doing that has absolutely nothing to do with religion. That's the nature of religious fanatics - they do whatever they want, regardless of consequence, and claim religious freedom, even though it has nothiong to do with religion.

you FLDS are giving law-abiding polygamists a bad name.....

Have you noticed. . . | 4:32 p.m. July 24, 2008

. . .how many people try to defend polygamy by tearing down Reid's reputation?

What I have learned about deceptive people:
If they can't destroy the message, they will try to discredit the reputation of the messenger.

Beware of critical people who want to tear down rather than build up--they have ulterior motives.

I' sorry! | 4:37 p.m. July 24, 2008

I really am! Sorry that you don't even know the truth! Welfare state? I haven't had any assist from the government for over 45 years. Paid every tax assessment that came along, every year, personally and for property. Although a bit slow after a major interruption from Shertluff and company. After all he did publically declare a few years ago that he would destroy every method of income for the FLDS. I believe it was he, who instigated the Bank of Ephraim going down, enough law suits that would chock every member of the team, didn't matter which side they were on. What, oh What did you expect? Welcome Home Harry! You did a great job! Join the "PARTY" we just as well have fun while the fun's a have'n.

Perspective | 4:39 p.m. July 24, 2008

I totally agree with going after those who hrut children or force women to do thing they don't want to do. Polygamy is against current US Law. That was not the case at the founding of our counrty or up till well after the Civil War.

I have do a little study on this topic. Turns out that the Polygamey practiced by the LDS in the past, was not "run" by the men.

The women of the family decided who would be thier "sister wives" the husband was supposed to provide for all, and very little choice on who his first wife choose to include in the marriage.

I not for or against Polygamy. I just that a little history lesson might help this debate. Most "true" Polygamy around the world is run the way I just decribed. How it changed into what some of these groups are like I don't know.

I love history so I'll keep studying to find out.

Of course every one here knows what the opposite of progress is.

Re: John Allen | 4:42 p.m. July 24, 2008

I think you hit the nail on the head. Harry Reid used to come to different meetings on Sundays and sit on the stand in Nevada, around election time. We thought he was pretty dang phony. And we could see right through his display.

anonymous | 5:27 p.m. July 24, 2008

Im glad this is all being investigated!! Its been going on for to long!!! Good Job Senator Reid, Hatch, Whitehouse, and Cardin!!

transplant | 5:43 p.m. July 24, 2008

A legal marriage ceremony is not required in Texas to make a legal marriage. Those declaring themselves married are married. Those proclaming themselves married in religious ceremonies are married. That's how it becomes a legal matter. Polygamy is against the law in Texas. They can live the way they are if they don't present themselves as married. The State doesn't care. There are lots of baby mammas because of men impregnanting multiple women. No one calls this marriage. There are many issues to be addressed by the Feds. Polygamy is the least important. It's just one on the list but one that address' flagrant disregard for the rule of secular law in this country, in every state. Other laws are violated in less obvious and traceable ways. Like the Amish they can live their lifestyle as long as they do it within the law.

Reid got it wrong | 6:01 p.m. July 24, 2008

Harry Reid has a state full of casinos and brothels, and he says polygamist families are a hotbed of crime?

Utah and Arizona have the right approach. Get rid of corrupt plyg leaders like Jeffs, shine some sunshine disinfectant into the communities and get rid of the abuses. We don't need more action like the cowardly bigoted TX raid that tries to destroy an entire community.

2/3 of plyg families in Utah aren't part of any compound or organized group. They're independent, they're your neighbors and they blend in and live normal, productive lives. When Reid makes broad comments like these, he fans the flames of prejudice.

At Warren Jeff's trial, woman after woman testified she believed in "the principle" (polygamy), loved her husband and all her sister-wives, and didn't feel coerced in any way. The world needs to back off and let these women live their lives the way they want. Rescue those that want to be rescued, and stop forcing our help on the rest.

There was ZERO welfare flowing into the YFZ Ranch. Assuming they all committ welfare fraud is no different from calling every black male a "gang member" or every latino an "illegal alien". Bigotry.

Truth | 6:04 p.m. July 24, 2008

I live summers in Cache county and winters in Hurricane Utah. I have had a home in Hurricane for 8 years, since I retired. This is the 3rd summer I have done this. I will tell you Northern people one thing for sure, unless you have seen the FLDS lifestyle in Hildale and Colorado City in person maybe you ought to listen instead of talking. I see poligamists daily down there shopping in Hurricane and Washington at Wal Mart and Lin's Market. Believe me they do for the most part buy things with food coupons, and other Utah and Arizona State money. Their very existence is dependent on aid from the federal Govt. and States mentioned. It's WRONG. It must be changed whether you like Reid or not.

Hmmmmmm??? | 6:40 p.m. July 24, 2008

Harry Reid having a problem over plygs???? He seems to forget which state he is representing!! We could even take our children site seeing in Vegas because of all the crude pictures, etc. etc. etc. WOW!!! THAT'S LIKE CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK ISN'T IT?????

Reido | 7:02 p.m. July 24, 2008

Dirty Harry has never been right on anything! He brings up things that should be solved by local law inforcement so that he does not have to go on the record on solving real problems. Why doesn't he help solve the energy problem and get congress to allow drilling to happen? Lets get term limits on all these bums and eliminate their organized crime sydicate.

to cosmo | 7:16 p.m. July 24, 2008

Yah just gotta stick to the facts, please. You are wasting the people's time with misinformation. Reid has never said that $5 a gal. for gas is good. Show us where he said that? Please, pretty please............. I thought so.

Call people Demo-nazis proves you have not been to college or Germany for that matter. No Drill policy? How about the fact that the oil companies are sitting on land right now that they have not explored. That is a fact.

You really have to tell the truth if you wish to be believed. Practice will you.

plankton | 7:32 p.m. July 24, 2008

IS IT ME OR DOES MR REID SOUND LIKE A RELIGIOUS BIGOT??? The pot calling the kettle black. Jeez!

realitycheck | 7:34 p.m. July 24, 2008

Did anybody besides me notice that Karadzic looks a lot like Santa Claus? Does anybody out there here me? Hello? Why doesn't anybody ever listen to me.

Cats | 7:36 p.m. July 24, 2008

Again, the FLDS are blogging under different names and trying to convince the rest of us they are being victimized. As for the FLDS woman who stated that Carolyn Jessop is a liar--I HIGHLY DOUBT SHE HAS EVEN READ CAROLYN'S BOOK.

I find it amazing that there are many on this blog that are saying that not all polygamists are committing crimes. POLYGAMY IN AND OF ITSELF IS A CRIME!

In addition, Congress is investigating the welfare fraud, tax evasion, child rape, expulsions of young boys and other crimes that often (though not always) accompany the CRIME of POLYGAMY.

You can't go on forever committing crimes and living a life of deceit without it eventually catching up with you. In addition, these people are teaching their children to be liars and cheaters as they pursue their lives of deceit. Does anyone think that is right? THIS IS CHILD ABUSE!

I know it is very hard to admit to yourself that you have followed a prophet who is a fraud and that your life has been committed to something that is immoral and illegal, especially when you didn't have any choice.

I really hope these people can get help.

CP | 7:47 p.m. July 24, 2008

I totally agree with Reid about this issue. And I just wish that the US Attorney -Utah would step up and not be afraid or intimidated by these polygamists.

And to Oklahoma Mormon: You are no Mormon if you support polygamy. A real Mormon or better said member of the LDS church does not participate in polygamy nor do real Mormons support it. So get it right Oklahoma!!!

You go get em Brother Reid!!!

Nevada Resident | 7:53 p.m. July 24, 2008

If Brother Reid had an (R) behind his name he would be a god send to most Utahns. I personally like the guy. He fights for our constitutional rights while many of you Utahns sit back and whole heartedly support our president as he tries to take those rights away. (R) doesn't equal Righteous. At least he is doing something about this problem (we are all paying for it with our taxes). Weren't you guys all over your attorney general a little while back for not doing anything?

GrateDane | 8:13 p.m. July 24, 2008

TYpical DEMOCRAT.... Harry Reid.... They're too busy investigating steroids in baseball, and now, polygamy, rather than deal with the energy emergency that is threatening to take most family budgets and the US economy down with it. Won't allow votes on drilling for more oil, because it might "offend" some of the traditional Democrat special interests, like GreenPeace, Sierra Club, Earth-FIrst, etc.

Why doesn't he investigate all of the co-habitating couples around America who are living together without benefit of clergy? That's still illegal in most states... same as Polygamy. (This last paragraph is sarcasm, in case you don't get it).

Enough, is enough. DRILL, BABY , DRILL!!! America needs its own oil; not Hugh Chavez'...

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