Reader comments
Transforming education — Initiative aims to make Utah viable producer of competent workers

Just another pointless blue ribbon panel of know-it-alls who don't trust parents and teachers to do the right thing. Conceited bureaucrats and lobbyists dictating what they think is best. Ho hum.

The outsourcing, or more accurately, off-shoring of U.S. businesses has much more to do with cheap labor than U.S. education. If the jobs stayed in the states, education would make itself adequate. Off-shoring is not a result of education achievement gaps; it could be a contributing cause. Ask the multi-million dollar U.S. businesses who base many of their operations in other countries if they want to pay a highly educated U.S. workforce what it is worth. You may be surprised by the answer.

Nice to see them trying to do something about it.

Unfortunately the only thing that is going to help with teacher recruitment is $$$$$$$$. It doesn't take a PhD to figure that one out.

When a beginning teacher can make $50,000 a year instead of $28,000 then we will see people wanting to become teachers again.

I didn't see any mention of the critical need to address math skills and teaching foreign languages earlier. The majority of students coming into UVU are tested into remedial math, many in prealgebra. Alpine School district, for example, will give a math student a passing C grade with a 50% average, clearly an F grade, but junior moves forward with math, not knowing the difference between a factor and a term. After junior completes his math requirement with minimal effort, he decides to go to college with the same assumptions about doing little work and expecting passing grades. These assumptions are met with astonishment when junior hits college and flunks out with the other 50% of his peers at UVU after the first year alone. These figures are not exaggerated. So the problem is one of rampant grade inflation, and low expectations. Foreign languages, another critical skill, are introduced way too late in the educational process, and should be started in grade school. Finally, the panel needs some student input from successful students, i.e. select finalists from sterling scholar program etc. and pick their brains on what they did to succeed, not relying just on the "blue ribbon panelists."

We taxpayers are paying the school systems to educate our children, not train students to be good and obedient employees. The education system should let business do their own training and concentrate on getting the students educated in reading, writing, math, and sciences. It's sickening that Utah can't give our children and education but they are willing to train employees for business needs. It is the business job to train for the needs of its employees and it is the schools job to educate the students first. The board of education can't understand why our children can't pass high school yet they can take the time to train employees for business. I guess an uneducated employee is easier for business to control and intimidate to submission to their demands. The schools have trained them already for the employers. The Utah education system can't meet federal standards of education so they want to change the federal standards to meet the standards developed for business needs. Education system should be concentrating on general education and keep busineses out of it. Let business do its own training for its needs, an education can go a lot farther than limited Off-the-Job training.

I understand the purpose of public education now it is to turn out a little robot ready to step into the workforce and produce more revenue for big business. We are on our way to the European model of education where a career pathway will be selected for students by the time they are in the 8th grade. Where that student is not a person, that student is simply a resource for others to use in the economy.

Huntsman, who has had jobs handed to him due to family connections, has no job skills. Here's the secret: study a lot, take challenging classes and actually learn something rather than putting in "seat time," get accepted to a competitive university, study hard and major in something other than "Family and Consumer Studies" or pe or construction management, then be tenacious enough to graduate, and the rest will follow. National/international companies will hire you and you will contribute to society. Oh, and by the way, do all this BEFORE you have babies, so you can actually concentrate on your education. The rest of America does this and people have well-paid, successful careers. It worked for everyone I know, including me. Utah is the ONLY place I know where people start families before they have a career.

It might be a good idea for the panel to ask educators what the problems are in the education process in Utah. Look at the school systems that we are compared to, there you will see longer school years, sports not part of school system, and students being tracked into schools that meet their needs. Until we let go of the old standards and join the rest of the world we will continue in lagging behind.
Also if you look at what students are learning today in comparison to what they were taught 20 years ago. You will see kids are much smarter today than our generation was.
If the people that critize the education program would take the tests the student have to take you might find they don't do as well as the students.

I like the part about "transferring expertise" from experienced teachers to new teachers. I have taught now for 15 years and have mentored many new teachers, but one thing is apparent like in all professions: Nothing builds expertise better than years of practice. I know that we are an instant gratification society, but seasoned teachers will never be picked fresh off the vine. Everyone and their dog thinks they have all the answers to education problems, but I have come to the opinion that while outside opinions and observations can pose interesting questions, most of these outside observers have no experience actually teaching and implementing educational theories. The real expert is the teacher, just as the real experts in medicine are the doctors who practice it. It is time we start looking to teachers for expertise and advice (something that has never been done since I've been teaching) instead of buying into some snake oil educational theory program that some "so-called" expert is peddling just to make a buck.

You are absolutely correct, and to take it one step further, businessmen are trying to blame the educational system for outsourcing jobs to other countries. I sat at a meeting with a local legislator/businessman who said that he was thinking of outsourcing jobs because there were not enough educated people around to do the work. The funny thing was that this was during the dot.com crash several years ago and I knew several unemployed computer programmers who were more than capable of doing the work required. The real truth was that this particular businessman was looking for educated people who would work for less money. Since many developing countries such as India and China are churning out better educated employees doesn't mean that they are any smarter than Americans. The difference is that they are willing to work for less. We are in a political/business climate where corporations and companies, thus politicians, are trying to hide their greed by blaming our schools and teachers for their business practices. It is pretty obvious that "call centers" such as Convergys didn't shift jobs to India because they speak better English.

Math @ 3:39 begins to accurately describe the problem. Public education is largely designed to teach to the lowest common denominator. In reality, just 10 - 25 percent of students actually care about obatining a strong, broad education. Parents and students both dislike homework. Self-esteem is valued more than performance. Discipline in the classroom is talked about but with every parent a potential litigant, there is little real enforcement. The problems in education begin at home. As soon as we see the education-industrial complex begin to acknowledge that and act accordingly, we will see education begin to improve.

More crap. Have our lousy politicians put their money where their mouth is!!! More dribble and crap!! Let's vote out every leader in our State Legislature and we will have made a good start. We need a balance in this state. Utahans need to stop acting like a bunch of sheep!! Besides the national Republican Party hates us them there Mormons!!

I have read several good ideas and most posts have some validity to them. As an educator I see the problems and successes daily. The problems keep mounting, the successes are getting fewer. Maybe the whole idea of public school until you are 18 is outdated.
Most families really don't value education so really basic education ends around the 8th grade. Let people/families decide if they want to continue at that point. Yes, it will create a system of haves and have not's but it will be their choice. Anyone opting out can sign a waiver for most public assistance in the future and the ones that continue will do so knowing that expectations are higher and whining will not be tolerated.

Why does the average joe need math beyond algebra?

Seriously.

Yes we need some people to take and understand high level math. Just like we need someone that understands chemistry, physics, etc.

But most won't.

I know this will trigger the "it teaches you how to think" response but why don't we teach kids how to think using something that they are interested in and will actually use in life?

And I have to agree with Ms. Fowler. Kids today are learning things that are far beyond what my generation learned at their age. Of course few old timers want to admit that. They just want to moan and groan about this generation...

Yes they understand it and can do it. My kids are a prime example.

The education system in Utah does great if the child is motivated and the parents follow through.

That is the key.

"...Jazz point guard signs extension for 50 MILLION..."

I know the real world exists somewhere between what we pay for entertainers, the inevitable "mumbo-jumbo" this group will spew and what the rest of us who have our reality planted firmly on terra-firma get payed.

Good luck with the "...transforming education initiative..."

It looks like Math @ 3:39 is pretty close to seeing the problems we are facing and some steps to improve.

Many others are clearly stuck with the status quo education establishment mindset that they want every dime the state gets.

The employers are the real customers who get the products of our schools, and their concerns and specifications are vitally important. Otherwise, we can continue to turn out more students who are unprepared for high paying jobs, and will merely subsist, or become criminals or leeches on society's welfare programs.

End the politically correct nonsense, set some real standards, and demand performance to get a passing grade. Achieving that should be seen as part of the work ethic.

Interestingly, many of the hard working illegals taking so many jobs away from Americans today have no better education, but have an enviable work ethic and work hard to advance themselves. No wonder employers often favor them over lazy Americans used to seat warming and expectations that the world owes them a living.

Another politically motivated scam by headline grabbers! I taught for over ten years and left because policy was being made by these very people and they have no imagination. Our children are bored with education because Utah influence has demanded education become a comfortable dogma that doesn't conflict with "Our Values". It seems that politicians and parents fear education more than students, "We just don't want little Joseph to hear anything that challenges our beliefs". Education can never be about comfort levels. It must be about a fearless desire "to know" If we stop asking questions we end the process of knowing.

Joe Schmoe is actually right considering that we need a lot of low paid worker bees to compete with the foreign workers that are now in the global market. This list of comments, including Joe's are about the best I have seen in these DesNews blogs. So if, as stated in the article, "The group hopes to come up with solutions to make Utah a viable producer of competent and competitive workers," we don't need to worry about hard stuff such as higher level math, foreign language or physics. We may not even need the fun stuff like: art, music, PE, and history.

Of course we still need, reading, writing and arithmetic, along with computer skills, office worker, construction, factory workers, and hundreds of others. If providing worker bees is the objective then we should be able to accomplish our goal. Providing well educated citizens is a much more difficult problem.

The real problems are getting the best of our people to become teachers, those that can really inspire students, and to also reduce the class load. Both of these are very expensive, but what we really need. Last year, because of low pay, we hired teaches from Mexico.

The problem is the definition of success. Is college the measure of success? If so, only 20% of our students are successful. Why do we continue in a system that is so focused on college prep when we are leaving 80% of our students behind with no marketable skills? Forcing students into classes that will �better prepare them for college� will not increase the knowledge base of our workforce because such classes will continue to remain irrelevant to the vast majority of those who take them. Allow students a choice of curriculum while in high school and allow them to graduate in an area they find relevant to their lives and you will see them learn at a much higher level. Oh wait, we already have that system�it�s called college, and it�s a multibillion dollar industry fueled by freshman dropouts.

Talk is cheap. Action matters. The many choice of parents and teachers will have greater impact than the talk of any blue ribbon panel.