Deseret News | Reader comments: Transforming education — Initiative aims to make Utah viable producer of competent workers

Reader comments
Transforming education — Initiative aims to make Utah viable producer of competent workers

Yawn | 12:10 a.m. July 19, 2008

Just another pointless blue ribbon panel of know-it-alls who don't trust parents and teachers to do the right thing. Conceited bureaucrats and lobbyists dictating what they think is best. Ho hum.

K | 1:43 a.m. July 19, 2008

The outsourcing, or more accurately, off-shoring of U.S. businesses has much more to do with cheap labor than U.S. education. If the jobs stayed in the states, education would make itself adequate. Off-shoring is not a result of education achievement gaps; it could be a contributing cause. Ask the multi-million dollar U.S. businesses who base many of their operations in other countries if they want to pay a highly educated U.S. workforce what it is worth. You may be surprised by the answer.

Orem Parent | 3:29 a.m. July 19, 2008

Nice to see them trying to do something about it.

Unfortunately the only thing that is going to help with teacher recruitment is $$$$$$$$. It doesn't take a PhD to figure that one out.

When a beginning teacher can make $50,000 a year instead of $28,000 then we will see people wanting to become teachers again.

Comments continue below

Math & Foreign Languages | 3:39 a.m. July 19, 2008

I didn't see any mention of the critical need to address math skills and teaching foreign languages earlier. The majority of students coming into UVU are tested into remedial math, many in prealgebra. Alpine School district, for example, will give a math student a passing C grade with a 50% average, clearly an F grade, but junior moves forward with math, not knowing the difference between a factor and a term. After junior completes his math requirement with minimal effort, he decides to go to college with the same assumptions about doing little work and expecting passing grades. These assumptions are met with astonishment when junior hits college and flunks out with the other 50% of his peers at UVU after the first year alone. These figures are not exaggerated. So the problem is one of rampant grade inflation, and low expectations. Foreign languages, another critical skill, are introduced way too late in the educational process, and should be started in grade school. Finally, the panel needs some student input from successful students, i.e. select finalists from sterling scholar program etc. and pick their brains on what they did to succeed, not relying just on the "blue ribbon panelists."

Bob G | 5:03 a.m. July 19, 2008

We taxpayers are paying the school systems to educate our children, not train students to be good and obedient employees. The education system should let business do their own training and concentrate on getting the students educated in reading, writing, math, and sciences. It's sickening that Utah can't give our children and education but they are willing to train employees for business needs. It is the business job to train for the needs of its employees and it is the schools job to educate the students first. The board of education can't understand why our children can't pass high school yet they can take the time to train employees for business. I guess an uneducated employee is easier for business to control and intimidate to submission to their demands. The schools have trained them already for the employers. The Utah education system can't meet federal standards of education so they want to change the federal standards to meet the standards developed for business needs. Education system should be concentrating on general education and keep busineses out of it. Let business do its own training for its needs, an education can go a lot farther than limited Off-the-Job training.

Fred | 6:22 a.m. July 19, 2008

I understand the purpose of public education now it is to turn out a little robot ready to step into the workforce and produce more revenue for big business. We are on our way to the European model of education where a career pathway will be selected for students by the time they are in the 8th grade. Where that student is not a person, that student is simply a resource for others to use in the economy.

I agree with yawm | 8:19 a.m. July 19, 2008

Huntsman, who has had jobs handed to him due to family connections, has no job skills. Here's the secret: study a lot, take challenging classes and actually learn something rather than putting in "seat time," get accepted to a competitive university, study hard and major in something other than "Family and Consumer Studies" or pe or construction management, then be tenacious enough to graduate, and the rest will follow. National/international companies will hire you and you will contribute to society. Oh, and by the way, do all this BEFORE you have babies, so you can actually concentrate on your education. The rest of America does this and people have well-paid, successful careers. It worked for everyone I know, including me. Utah is the ONLY place I know where people start families before they have a career.

maryella fowler | 9:00 a.m. July 19, 2008

It might be a good idea for the panel to ask educators what the problems are in the education process in Utah. Look at the school systems that we are compared to, there you will see longer school years, sports not part of school system, and students being tracked into schools that meet their needs. Until we let go of the old standards and join the rest of the world we will continue in lagging behind.
Also if you look at what students are learning today in comparison to what they were taught 20 years ago. You will see kids are much smarter today than our generation was.
If the people that critize the education program would take the tests the student have to take you might find they don't do as well as the students.

Education experts again | 9:16 a.m. July 19, 2008

I like the part about "transferring expertise" from experienced teachers to new teachers. I have taught now for 15 years and have mentored many new teachers, but one thing is apparent like in all professions: Nothing builds expertise better than years of practice. I know that we are an instant gratification society, but seasoned teachers will never be picked fresh off the vine. Everyone and their dog thinks they have all the answers to education problems, but I have come to the opinion that while outside opinions and observations can pose interesting questions, most of these outside observers have no experience actually teaching and implementing educational theories. The real expert is the teacher, just as the real experts in medicine are the doctors who practice it. It is time we start looking to teachers for expertise and advice (something that has never been done since I've been teaching) instead of buying into some snake oil educational theory program that some "so-called" expert is peddling just to make a buck.

To Bob G: | 9:27 a.m. July 19, 2008

You are absolutely correct, and to take it one step further, businessmen are trying to blame the educational system for outsourcing jobs to other countries. I sat at a meeting with a local legislator/businessman who said that he was thinking of outsourcing jobs because there were not enough educated people around to do the work. The funny thing was that this was during the dot.com crash several years ago and I knew several unemployed computer programmers who were more than capable of doing the work required. The real truth was that this particular businessman was looking for educated people who would work for less money. Since many developing countries such as India and China are churning out better educated employees doesn't mean that they are any smarter than Americans. The difference is that they are willing to work for less. We are in a political/business climate where corporations and companies, thus politicians, are trying to hide their greed by blaming our schools and teachers for their business practices. It is pretty obvious that "call centers" such as Convergys didn't shift jobs to India because they speak better English.

evensteven | 9:42 a.m. July 19, 2008

Math @ 3:39 begins to accurately describe the problem. Public education is largely designed to teach to the lowest common denominator. In reality, just 10 - 25 percent of students actually care about obatining a strong, broad education. Parents and students both dislike homework. Self-esteem is valued more than performance. Discipline in the classroom is talked about but with every parent a potential litigant, there is little real enforcement. The problems in education begin at home. As soon as we see the education-industrial complex begin to acknowledge that and act accordingly, we will see education begin to improve.

Government Man. | 11:45 a.m. July 19, 2008

More crap. Have our lousy politicians put their money where their mouth is!!! More dribble and crap!! Let's vote out every leader in our State Legislature and we will have made a good start. We need a balance in this state. Utahans need to stop acting like a bunch of sheep!! Besides the national Republican Party hates us them there Mormons!!

Good Ideas | 1:10 p.m. July 19, 2008

I have read several good ideas and most posts have some validity to them. As an educator I see the problems and successes daily. The problems keep mounting, the successes are getting fewer. Maybe the whole idea of public school until you are 18 is outdated.
Most families really don't value education so really basic education ends around the 8th grade. Let people/families decide if they want to continue at that point. Yes, it will create a system of haves and have not's but it will be their choice. Anyone opting out can sign a waiver for most public assistance in the future and the ones that continue will do so knowing that expectations are higher and whining will not be tolerated.

Joe Schmoe | 1:16 p.m. July 19, 2008

Why does the average joe need math beyond algebra?

Seriously.

Yes we need some people to take and understand high level math. Just like we need someone that understands chemistry, physics, etc.

But most won't.

I know this will trigger the "it teaches you how to think" response but why don't we teach kids how to think using something that they are interested in and will actually use in life?

And I have to agree with Ms. Fowler. Kids today are learning things that are far beyond what my generation learned at their age. Of course few old timers want to admit that. They just want to moan and groan about this generation...

Yes they understand it and can do it. My kids are a prime example.

The education system in Utah does great if the child is motivated and the parents follow through.

That is the key.

Reality | 1:26 p.m. July 19, 2008

"...Jazz point guard signs extension for 50 MILLION..."

I know the real world exists somewhere between what we pay for entertainers, the inevitable "mumbo-jumbo" this group will spew and what the rest of us who have our reality planted firmly on terra-firma get payed.

Good luck with the "...transforming education initiative..."

Skeptical | 1:31 p.m. July 19, 2008

It looks like Math @ 3:39 is pretty close to seeing the problems we are facing and some steps to improve.

Many others are clearly stuck with the status quo education establishment mindset that they want every dime the state gets.

The employers are the real customers who get the products of our schools, and their concerns and specifications are vitally important. Otherwise, we can continue to turn out more students who are unprepared for high paying jobs, and will merely subsist, or become criminals or leeches on society's welfare programs.

End the politically correct nonsense, set some real standards, and demand performance to get a passing grade. Achieving that should be seen as part of the work ethic.

Interestingly, many of the hard working illegals taking so many jobs away from Americans today have no better education, but have an enviable work ethic and work hard to advance themselves. No wonder employers often favor them over lazy Americans used to seat warming and expectations that the world owes them a living.

Gary | 1:49 p.m. July 19, 2008

Another politically motivated scam by headline grabbers! I taught for over ten years and left because policy was being made by these very people and they have no imagination. Our children are bored with education because Utah influence has demanded education become a comfortable dogma that doesn't conflict with "Our Values". It seems that politicians and parents fear education more than students, "We just don't want little Joseph to hear anything that challenges our beliefs". Education can never be about comfort levels. It must be about a fearless desire "to know" If we stop asking questions we end the process of knowing.

Stewart | 2:12 p.m. July 19, 2008

Joe Schmoe is actually right considering that we need a lot of low paid worker bees to compete with the foreign workers that are now in the global market. This list of comments, including Joe's are about the best I have seen in these DesNews blogs. So if, as stated in the article, "The group hopes to come up with solutions to make Utah a viable producer of competent and competitive workers," we don't need to worry about hard stuff such as higher level math, foreign language or physics. We may not even need the fun stuff like: art, music, PE, and history.

Of course we still need, reading, writing and arithmetic, along with computer skills, office worker, construction, factory workers, and hundreds of others. If providing worker bees is the objective then we should be able to accomplish our goal. Providing well educated citizens is a much more difficult problem.

The real problems are getting the best of our people to become teachers, those that can really inspire students, and to also reduce the class load. Both of these are very expensive, but what we really need. Last year, because of low pay, we hired teaches from Mexico.

M.Ed. | 2:30 p.m. July 19, 2008

The problem is the definition of success. Is college the measure of success? If so, only 20% of our students are successful. Why do we continue in a system that is so focused on college prep when we are leaving 80% of our students behind with no marketable skills? Forcing students into classes that will ï¿½better prepare them for collegeï¿½ will not increase the knowledge base of our workforce because such classes will continue to remain irrelevant to the vast majority of those who take them. Allow students a choice of curriculum while in high school and allow them to graduate in an area they find relevant to their lives and you will see them learn at a much higher level. Oh wait, we already have that systemï¿½itï¿½s called college, and itï¿½s a multibillion dollar industry fueled by freshman dropouts.

Talk is Cheap | 3:04 p.m. July 19, 2008

Talk is cheap. Action matters. The many choice of parents and teachers will have greater impact than the talk of any blue ribbon panel.

Look In The Mirror | 3:49 p.m. July 19, 2008

Hey Johnny Boy Hunstman, why don't you first make you and your staff competent in running Utah before you go tinkering with the education system. You and your politician buddies are about as two faced and incompetent as stake holders can be! From making any tough decisions on your own to thinking there is nothing illegal about illegal immigration. Your the joke, not the education system!

gary | 4:46 p.m. July 19, 2008

I must take issue with "skeptical" and the generalization of "work ethic" I am seeing more and more foreign workers at my workplace and and their work ethic is not an issue. They work hard, yes, they work long hours, yes and employers love them because if they complain they can be easily replaced. Businesses don't want workers they want slaves. They want us to work long hours with fewer benefits and lower wages. It is not the foreign workers that lower wages or take jobs from Americans it's their vulnerability in the workplace and business interests that want to exploit that vulnerability. These workers will work for less and don't dare complain. As for the issue at hand I think M.Ed has forgotten that students seldom know what they really want. Most BS grads don't work in their field of study. Time and maturity will help us find our place in the workforce. A good education (hopefully) will make us better citizens.

record profits | 5:14 p.m. July 19, 2008

I doubt there will be good paying jobs waiting for students after completing the "new and improved" education system.

Employers can't find employees because they don't want to pay a decent wage.
Corporate america doesn't care about anything except their record profits and if that means moving overseas they will.

Another waste of government money.

Mormon Moderate | 5:26 p.m. July 19, 2008

One step closer to (A) becoming robot worker zombies and (B) forcing children to decide what they're going to do with their life even earlier. Public school attendance should be a time for kids to learn how to interact socially, a time for them to learn what areas they're naturally gifted in, and a time to be exposed to lots of new areas and fields of study that they might not have considered earlier. I've lived in other countries in Asia where they force children to be too goal-oriented, and it ruins a very enjoyably part of their lives. Suicide rates among teens there are much higher.

Stuart | 6:19 p.m. July 19, 2008

You know, if you have such a beef about "greedy corporate types" shipping jobs overseas, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and buy higher priced products from companies that produce everything here, instead of saving a buck or two by buying those foreign produced goods. Or better yet, why don't you start a company yourself and pay american workers what you think they are worth? If you don't act hypocritically in your consumption patterns and buy only American products, I will give you the respect your opinion deserves, even if I don't agree with it. If however, you turn around and buy those cheaper foreign products out of you own "greed" to preserve your own wealth, then I'll call you out as the liar you are.

K | 10:22 p.m. July 19, 2008

You can't just throw money at the problem. Unless you aim is to spend money....

Kids are lacking advanced math and science. They are also lacking in problem solving skills and decision making.

Schools have to stop trying to be everything; the purpose of a school is to educate, not raise.

Desperado | 10:34 p.m. July 20, 2008

What about the veteran teachers? They red line after twenty years and the "rookies" coming in now they teach for one to three years, take their signing bonuses and bail. They simply are not going to put up with the abuse from students, parents and administrators. I suppose they are the smart ones' for playing the system and then jumping ship. You go rookies...you go!!!

tfish | 4:51 p.m. July 21, 2008

I am an educator. I was given a chance to send imput for these conferences. I was sent a survey from my district, so teachers were given a chance to give their imput. My concern is how much they will actually take the teachers'comments into consideration.

dj | 7:11 p.m. July 21, 2008

I am participant in these sessions and as a representative from public ed can say that I began by being very skeptical and asking many of these same questions. One statistic that is of concern is that this is the first generation whose education level is lower than their parents. Fewer students are going on to further their education (in any way, including technical skills) than have in the past. I believe that money (or the lack of it) may have a lot to do with that.

tfish: we have definitely used the input from the teachers and had MANY teachers as part of the session. Thank you for taking the time to send you comments. They are invaluable.

This isn't about making worker robots. It's about preparing our children (too many who are dropping out) to be responsible, contributing adults.

dj cont. | 7:15 p.m. July 21, 2008

The cost to the state of the dropouts from the class of 2008 alone in lost wages (the difference between a high school diploma and NOT having one) over a 30 year work span is over $2.5 billion dollars. That doesn't take into account the output from state agencies over that life time in supplemental support. We are losing our greatest resource and asset in Utah by NOT preparing every student to be gainfully employed.

This commission isn't about trying to "fix" education or create a "robot" force for business. It's about aligning our limited resources, finding the most efficient governance, and doing a better job of educating the public about the importance of education and training in preparation for the future.

randy | 10:04 a.m. July 22, 2008

average wage in this state is $7.00 per hour .. the average house (modest) in this state takes $14.00 per hour or more for its up keep ...

tell you something ??

we are the 8th highest property taxed state in the nation ...

entitlement has to go ... if you dont earn it you dont get it ...

i pay my bills , i have never foreclosed, never defaulted on my bills or expenses .. i have always lived within my means ... dont see anybody giving me more money for paying my way ...

but how many in this state who dont pay their way still get to have and even expect these days ??

entitlement has to go ...

another idea -

i have an idea outside the box .. instead of having ten's of school boards and layers of administration in this states educational system ... create one school board ...

as for the committee .. just a political joke that cant produce a lick of change cause this state is running out of folks who can actually pay their way and the way of the entitled

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