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Book confronts LDS tragedy
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Richard | 7:49 p.m. July 21, 2008
Oh and I don't really think they meant to necessarily ask Brigham what they
should do until the Paiutes got mad. That explains, just let me finish now, in
my perception, the most likely possibility as to why they felt they needed
counsel from a higher authority. Things got out of hand a lot more quickly than
anyone could have imagined or possibly handled. It would have been mostly common
sense but then again so would not have bringing the worst sorts of antogonistic
anti-Mormons through fringe territory and yes, knocking down fences and angering
the natives of both sorts.
To HMn @7:07 | 7:56 p.m. July 21, 2008
"Any MMM critics care to comment on this atrocity committed against the
LDS?"
Well yes. Why is it that any time Mountain Meadows Massacre is being discussed where over 120 unarmed victims were shamelessly murdered and all their belongings stolen, that some Mormon has to justify it by saying "Well, 18 Mormons were once killed at Haun's Mill."
Well yes. Why is it that any time Mountain Meadows Massacre is being discussed where over 120 unarmed victims were shamelessly murdered and all their belongings stolen, that some Mormon has to justify it by saying "Well, 18 Mormons were once killed at Haun's Mill."
Comments continue below
Joe Friday | 8:00 p.m. July 21, 2008
"Parowan Patriot's" claim about Proctor Robinson's death
isn't supported by the record. He died in Fillmore on September 21, 1857,
almost a month after the Fancher train camped at Corn Creek.
Similarly, there is no known poison whose effects and potency are anywhere near the claims attributed to the mysterious substance carried by the ill-fated Arkansans.
Jacob Hamblin claimed the emigrants had poisoned a running spring, which is a physical impossibility.
From earlier articles I've read about the planned Turley volume, these historians suggest that anthrax was the likely cause of the cattle deaths.
It seems absurd to me to even consider the possibility settlers in Southern Utah wouldn't have known the difference between cattle deaths from disease and those from poison. Anthrax was well enough known and feared in that day and age that it was one of the first vaccines developed by Louis Pasteur.
The most logical hypothesis is they villified the MMM victims as a rationalization for their own indefensible actions.
Similarly, there is no known poison whose effects and potency are anywhere near the claims attributed to the mysterious substance carried by the ill-fated Arkansans.
Jacob Hamblin claimed the emigrants had poisoned a running spring, which is a physical impossibility.
From earlier articles I've read about the planned Turley volume, these historians suggest that anthrax was the likely cause of the cattle deaths.
It seems absurd to me to even consider the possibility settlers in Southern Utah wouldn't have known the difference between cattle deaths from disease and those from poison. Anthrax was well enough known and feared in that day and age that it was one of the first vaccines developed by Louis Pasteur.
The most logical hypothesis is they villified the MMM victims as a rationalization for their own indefensible actions.
Jedediah Thunder | 8:12 p.m. July 21, 2008
I'm noticing that many defenders of the faith here are quick to point out
that we need to remember to understand this tragedy in the context of the times,
and that LDS leaders are only human, after all, and shouldn't be expected
to always make the most wise decisions and choices.
That being true, would it be okay for me to feel the same way about the current LDS leadership? Would it be okay for me to believe, for example, that their current political involvements in California might possibly be uninspired and misguided?
That being true, would it be okay for me to feel the same way about the current LDS leadership? Would it be okay for me to believe, for example, that their current political involvements in California might possibly be uninspired and misguided?
Richard | 8:14 p.m. July 21, 2008
To "Typical LDS Logic":
You make no sense for trying to begin with a logical post. You say you want to apply scholarly and educated means to the BoM in order to verify or denounce it? Is that what you mean? It has been done in many ways and many times and forms. One that really stands out is how many different writing styles were found to be in it when it was put under a test (the name of which eludes me, sorry). Not to mention, there were over 170 words added to the English language in it, 540 pages were scribed as dictated, never repeated (if you are willing to believe that the scribes, Oliver, Martin, and Emma) according to those who wrote Joseph's words, translation or writing was done in the total space of about 60 days, and convinve someone to publish it at cost as well as mortgage their farm to pay for the initial printing of it. That is a lot at stake for the time period. Anyway, those are just some "facts" for your "logic" to try and churn out some conclusion.
You make no sense for trying to begin with a logical post. You say you want to apply scholarly and educated means to the BoM in order to verify or denounce it? Is that what you mean? It has been done in many ways and many times and forms. One that really stands out is how many different writing styles were found to be in it when it was put under a test (the name of which eludes me, sorry). Not to mention, there were over 170 words added to the English language in it, 540 pages were scribed as dictated, never repeated (if you are willing to believe that the scribes, Oliver, Martin, and Emma) according to those who wrote Joseph's words, translation or writing was done in the total space of about 60 days, and convinve someone to publish it at cost as well as mortgage their farm to pay for the initial printing of it. That is a lot at stake for the time period. Anyway, those are just some "facts" for your "logic" to try and churn out some conclusion.
Shelley | 8:17 p.m. July 21, 2008
I have to agree with those who say that we should learn as much truth as we can,
and be mindful of the terrible mistakes and all those who suffered needlessly.
There are a lot of myths surrounding the MMM and according to the authors, this
book will dispel a lot of them. As members, we should not rush to excuse the
inexcusable or try to justify it because of the atrocities suffered at
Haun�s Mill. They were all horrors. Respect all those who
died during these horrific events and show compassion for the descendants.
JC | 8:25 p.m. July 21, 2008
Wilford Woodruff: May 25, 1861.
We visited the Mt. Meadows Monument not up at the burial place of 120 persons killed by Indians in 1857. The pile of stones was about twelve feet high but begining to tumble down. A wooden cross is placed on top with the following words, Vengance is mine and I will repay saith the Lord. Pres Young said it should be Vengance is mine and I have taken a little.
We visited the Mt. Meadows Monument not up at the burial place of 120 persons killed by Indians in 1857. The pile of stones was about twelve feet high but begining to tumble down. A wooden cross is placed on top with the following words, Vengance is mine and I will repay saith the Lord. Pres Young said it should be Vengance is mine and I have taken a little.
Richard | 8:33 p.m. July 21, 2008
You are referring of course, to Isaac C. Haight. You also cite a document that
is form 2007 for accuracy concerning this. I do not venture to call Turley or
the others liars if their perspective differs from what I have learned in my own
investigations concerning Mountain Meadows. I do believe that we will not ever
know exactly what happened because of so many peoples' hands in the pot and
so many different accounts of it. One thing is certain, the more imperfect
humans you have doing something together, the more imperfect it will be.
Richard | 8:32 p.m. July 21, 2008
Continuing to MMM rumors:
This is even true in the laws of physics with energy and entropy. If it is published, which they say it is, in order to sell it will have to have "all new only found here, secret documents from a heretofore sealed vault" or it is a complete rehash of everything everyone has said here, basically. We will likely see the view from the SLC perspective at the time but not the one from the Cedar City stake side which has already seen too much light of day to sort out the truths. I learned enough about it to know the fault was with all sides, INCLUDING the Paiutes. There is too much smoke there (no puns intended) and admissions from that time for them to be angered themselves and stirred up to fight. I don't buy for one second that this will be the definitive perfect version of the truth, nor my own current understanding of it to be for that matter.
This is even true in the laws of physics with energy and entropy. If it is published, which they say it is, in order to sell it will have to have "all new only found here, secret documents from a heretofore sealed vault" or it is a complete rehash of everything everyone has said here, basically. We will likely see the view from the SLC perspective at the time but not the one from the Cedar City stake side which has already seen too much light of day to sort out the truths. I learned enough about it to know the fault was with all sides, INCLUDING the Paiutes. There is too much smoke there (no puns intended) and admissions from that time for them to be angered themselves and stirred up to fight. I don't buy for one second that this will be the definitive perfect version of the truth, nor my own current understanding of it to be for that matter.
Chip | 8:53 p.m. July 21, 2008
I have often wondered about the on going effort to re-hash the MMM. It continues
on forever. On the other hand I see no effort to find those who killed,
banished, and stole property from the early saints. Who was resonsible for
those horrible acts? Who murdered Joseph and Hyrum? What Christian church did
they belong to or what government agency ordered it? Doesn't seem to be the
same standard does it? Are all Americans guilty because the president of the
United States turned a cold shoulder? Why don't we just let it rest?
Richard | 8:55 p.m. July 21, 2008
It looks like someone started a yahoo chat room and asked all ex-mormons, likely
not by their own choice or as a result of a very bad choice or more, and any LDS
haters to come on down for a good ole fashioned Mormon lynchin' partay. I
am trying to just speak what I know and how I have perceived what I learned from
it. Most of us here are trying to do that and even share some spiritual
enlightenment with others but the bashers are fairly obvious. We understand that
anyone can quote scripture and those who have a very sensitive spot in their
hearts for the LDS Church would no doubt be particularly adept at sticking where
it hurts. Problem is, the bashers and the formers are accusing us of justifying
murder which is not what is happening here. Something like this will stir up
deep feelings in people and always ends up hurting those who open themselves up
to it. I meant to address the deception and say that I found that as well and it
was under the guise of surrendering arms and cattle to replace what was lost
instead resulting in killing the adults(over13orso).
D. Michael Bass | 9:00 p.m. July 21, 2008
The LDS were the real victims in this situation.
Richard | 9:06 p.m. July 21, 2008
To Joe Friday:
You seem to be well spoken if not also fairly educated. I am surprised you do not know of any poisons that could do such damage to livestock. Many claim that Selenium kills. I heard it also helps prevent prostate cancer. Maybe that first part is just spread by men-haters but it is on bill boards here :).
You can dissolve a salt block in a small amount of water making it unfit for human consumption and likely animal as well. Wehere would one get salt in Utah? I haven't read about the running spring being poisoned but I know they can certainly get Giardia. Ever hear of that? It is a nasty thing to get and can kill you. It happens when fecal matter or even dead animals end up in the soup upstream. That is how one might poison a running stream. I don't particularly like to think about how to cause harm or damage but have to concede that there are absolutely ways. Know what was used before Liquid Plumber? I had a cousin die from drinking Lye. Liquid Plumber is as deadly. Lye was around back then and used for other things besidespipecleaning.
You seem to be well spoken if not also fairly educated. I am surprised you do not know of any poisons that could do such damage to livestock. Many claim that Selenium kills. I heard it also helps prevent prostate cancer. Maybe that first part is just spread by men-haters but it is on bill boards here :).
You can dissolve a salt block in a small amount of water making it unfit for human consumption and likely animal as well. Wehere would one get salt in Utah? I haven't read about the running spring being poisoned but I know they can certainly get Giardia. Ever hear of that? It is a nasty thing to get and can kill you. It happens when fecal matter or even dead animals end up in the soup upstream. That is how one might poison a running stream. I don't particularly like to think about how to cause harm or damage but have to concede that there are absolutely ways. Know what was used before Liquid Plumber? I had a cousin die from drinking Lye. Liquid Plumber is as deadly. Lye was around back then and used for other things besidespipecleaning.
Richard once again | 9:13 p.m. July 21, 2008
Just finishing up, I hope. Word of mouth passed along information about MMM to
descendants in the area but scholars and historians do not take those accounts
seriously unless they are written down by an educated source apparently. Ever
hear of tribal chiefs who spoke of sacred places inside their villages where
sacred objects were kept? Well, of course not. Historians don't like to be
caught citing sources like that. You may be right about the kid, or as you say
Proctor, hehe. This guy claims to be a descendant of someone who was there and
that was what was told him. Norman Rockwell has the gossip down right on his
painting where information passed along can change tremendously. From parents to
children, the hatred of prejudice can and does get passed. He might be more
accurate than the record that is "officially" cited. It may have taken
a bit of time for him to die since he was sick for a time. The Paiute
chief's son was the victim I knew about. If we really wanted to know, we
could ask for exhumations of the bodies which would not liekly bring peace or
prevent new questions.
Anon | 9:35 p.m. July 21, 2008
�Well yes. Why is it that any time Mountain Meadows
Massacre is being discussed where over 120 unarmed victims were shamelessly
murdered and all their belongings stolen, that some Mormon has to justify it by
saying "Well, 18 Mormons were once killed at Haun's Mill."
Let me see if I understand you correctly. HM was not an atrocity because only 18 people were murdered. How many people have to be murdered for it to be considered an atrocity or what matter of death do the have to suffer? I did not realize that numbers or circumstances made a difference. You seem to harshly judge the one but gloss over the other when in reality they are both atrocities.
Let me see if I understand you correctly. HM was not an atrocity because only 18 people were murdered. How many people have to be murdered for it to be considered an atrocity or what matter of death do the have to suffer? I did not realize that numbers or circumstances made a difference. You seem to harshly judge the one but gloss over the other when in reality they are both atrocities.
Re: Chip | 9:53 p.m. July 21, 2008
Exactly correct! You nailed this issue! Great points!
Wesley M. | 9:57 p.m. July 21, 2008
I agree D. Michael Bass
The Mormons were the true victims and now their descendants are as well. People who write vicious website with nothing but lies written about the MMM should be sued for trying to ruin families living today. These liars are causing much distress among many innocent Mormon families of today, who may have had an ancestor near the Massacre sight, but no proof they ever killed anyone, accept for some liar who makes up a bunch of ridiculous stories to impress the media on his website. I think the LDS members who are having these lies spread around world wide and across the internet should sue for slander.
The Mormons were the true victims and now their descendants are as well. People who write vicious website with nothing but lies written about the MMM should be sued for trying to ruin families living today. These liars are causing much distress among many innocent Mormon families of today, who may have had an ancestor near the Massacre sight, but no proof they ever killed anyone, accept for some liar who makes up a bunch of ridiculous stories to impress the media on his website. I think the LDS members who are having these lies spread around world wide and across the internet should sue for slander.
RhondaW | 10:04 p.m. July 21, 2008
A cousin of mine in Michigan told me last month that she has had missionaries
visit her several times. She found the whole religion apealling and was reading
one of their books.
I told her to read "Under the Banner of Heaven."
She did.
Then she told them to not come back. Thank God I was able to warn her about the history of the LDS church.
I told her to read "Under the Banner of Heaven."
She did.
Then she told them to not come back. Thank God I was able to warn her about the history of the LDS church.
Kevin | 10:09 p.m. July 21, 2008
Antis you can keep it coming but your evil makes testimonies grow stonger. We
have and know truth and that is the bottom line. Try living a good LDS life and
you might find peace but until then try to chill and just try and take care of
your families instead of attacking us. I am sad for you and you hate but I pray
for you and the non-members to have a good live until you find the truth of
Christ and his Church.
To Anon | 10:13 p.m. July 21, 2008
No, I agree that Haun's Mill and Mountain Meadows were both
tragedies--anytime someone is needlessly killed it's a tragedy. I simply
think it's strange that whenever Mountain Meadows is being discussed
someone instantly spouts off about Haun's Mill, as if that is a
justification for anything else the Mormons might possibly do in the future.
(like "what do you expect them to do--this terrible thing was once done to
them.") They seem to exonerate any future actions of the Utah pioneers
because, after all, 18 people died at Haun's mill.
parowan patriot | 10:39 p.m. July 21, 2008
joe friday. just the facts. i did not say where robinson died. whatever hamblin
said is not pertinent to the facts as written in grandpas journal.grandpa wrote
what he knew as it happened at the time, he was dead by the time of the trial
etc. he was not involved in the mmm but knew people that were an heard their
stories and recorded them. not all the true facts are know to everyone. what did
i eat at IHOP this morning? what? you dont know? just cause you dont know dosent
mean it didnt happen. think about it. there were many people who had various
experiences with the fancher party but just because its not recorded to your
satisfation does mean it didnt happen. there are many ways wells springs and
waterhole can be poisoned. including some weeds that grow in southern utah. GOD
only knows. i am quoting from an original source with no reason to lie. your
info has been sifted and spun many times by both sides. which is more
believeable.
To Kevin | 11:45 p.m. July 21, 2008
I tried. I tried hard to live a good LDS life. And much of it was good, and
parts of it made me happy. But I didn't fit the mold, and was told
repeatedly I didn't fit the mold. Parts of it didn't make me happy.
It hurt too much to stay. I believe in a religion of the heart. I take what is
good from growing up and into adulthood as a member of the LDS church and I move
forward with my life. I am not evil, nor am I anti-mormon. I just don't
believe there is a one size fits all approach to life, otherwise we would all be
the same.
Joe Friday | 12:21 a.m. July 22, 2008
Well, back to the reruns on the TVLD channel in the retirement home. I thought I
might give my report on a 150 year old crime, but I've got my doubts about
the jury...
"Parowan Patriot," the problem with your Grandpa's story is it's the same one John D. Lee told in his diary (an original source). The relevancy is when Proctor Robinson died, not where, which was ten days after the killings took place at Mountain Meadows and a month after any possible contact with the Fancher wagon train. Grandpa was probably repeating what he heard. The emigrants were likely dead before he even fell sick.
And "Richard," I'm tempted to issue you a couple tickets, one for speeding with the truth on Giardia; look it up (my sister's the doctor in the family, but yes, I am well-educated), and you'll find it's fatal about as often as the common cold. The second ticket is for running a shell game with that spring/stream switcheroo; up here in the mountains of the Rockies a spring comes out of the ground, and there isn't anybody upstream. Not that a running stream would stay poisoned, either. The salt yarn is nonsense.
"Parowan Patriot," the problem with your Grandpa's story is it's the same one John D. Lee told in his diary (an original source). The relevancy is when Proctor Robinson died, not where, which was ten days after the killings took place at Mountain Meadows and a month after any possible contact with the Fancher wagon train. Grandpa was probably repeating what he heard. The emigrants were likely dead before he even fell sick.
And "Richard," I'm tempted to issue you a couple tickets, one for speeding with the truth on Giardia; look it up (my sister's the doctor in the family, but yes, I am well-educated), and you'll find it's fatal about as often as the common cold. The second ticket is for running a shell game with that spring/stream switcheroo; up here in the mountains of the Rockies a spring comes out of the ground, and there isn't anybody upstream. Not that a running stream would stay poisoned, either. The salt yarn is nonsense.
parowan patriot | 1:07 a.m. July 22, 2008
joe blow friday
that makes 2 witnesses that said them same dummmy
that makes 2 witnesses that said them same dummmy
Shelley | 1:46 a.m. July 22, 2008
Good heavens, Richard, you�re rabid.
The Church historian evidently doesn�t agree with your term paper on MMM and you �won�t venture to call Turley a liar�? How presumptuous.
Not only that, but I have to wonder if you even read this article. The LDS researchers seem to agree that there were only 17 surviving children (not 30) and 120 victims (how do you get 13 adults from that?).
Of course, you�re entitled to your opinions, but if you feel that you have more accurate information than the historians, then maybe your time is better spent writing your own account of MMM.
The Church historian evidently doesn�t agree with your term paper on MMM and you �won�t venture to call Turley a liar�? How presumptuous.
Not only that, but I have to wonder if you even read this article. The LDS researchers seem to agree that there were only 17 surviving children (not 30) and 120 victims (how do you get 13 adults from that?).
Of course, you�re entitled to your opinions, but if you feel that you have more accurate information than the historians, then maybe your time is better spent writing your own account of MMM.
Re: to Kevin | 3:15 a.m. July 22, 2008
I identified with what you eloquently expressed on your comment. I am still
trying, trying hard. The only reason I have not given up is that I think about
what Peter told the Lord when he was discouraged and the Lord asked Peter if he
(Peter) was going to walk away too (like so many others did at that time). Peter
and (I,now) ask, "Where shall I go, thou has the words of eternal
life." Those words have comforted me. Maybe they will you too! Hang in
there with me brother. I think we will be very glad we did, someday, if not now!
Where else shall we go, indeed?
SPA | 7:59 a.m. July 22, 2008
It's time the Church confronted its past. As a convert to the LDS Church, I
have felt that such reform is long overdue! It's almost like a breath of
fresh air. It doesn't mean that the Church isn't true but that it is
not made up of perfect people. Even Brigham Young and Joeseph Smith weren't
perfect, regardless what some may believe! The Church will survive. The Catholic
Church has survived and look at the tens of thousands of deaths it has caused,
directly indirectly. Protestants who fought with the Catholics don't have a
clean record either. Let's face it, the Church (any church) is there to
help the weak and those who fall short. Don't point fingers...just learn
not to repeat the same errors again. Move on. As for the anti-Mormons who will
continue to attack with their venom, just love them and don't invite them
to their own Mountain Meadows. As with many things back in history, we
weren't there, we don't have the same mentality, and we don't
know what we would have done as we sit on our pristine thrones of judgment in
2008.
SlowS | 8:41 a.m. July 22, 2008
JULIO-
The answer is...no amount of fear and stress justifies murder, so I guess I did answer my own question. Oh, sorry about the delay, but I have a big boy job I had to get up early for to support my family. Gosh yeah, the Fanchers, the Lees and the others certainly have had time to work out that little "tempest in a teapot" in which cold blooded murder was committed on a whole settler's party. Excluding the youngsters of course, they got to watch. I'm sure they have smoothed things over. I'm not fighting battles on line for either side, and I try to get on with my life, including a rewarding career and over three decades of monagamy. You have fun playing. I'm still trying to sort out all the things I was taught growing up in the Church and how the stories keep changing, so forgive me if I'm a little stressed out. I don't have all the answers.
The answer is...no amount of fear and stress justifies murder, so I guess I did answer my own question. Oh, sorry about the delay, but I have a big boy job I had to get up early for to support my family. Gosh yeah, the Fanchers, the Lees and the others certainly have had time to work out that little "tempest in a teapot" in which cold blooded murder was committed on a whole settler's party. Excluding the youngsters of course, they got to watch. I'm sure they have smoothed things over. I'm not fighting battles on line for either side, and I try to get on with my life, including a rewarding career and over three decades of monagamy. You have fun playing. I'm still trying to sort out all the things I was taught growing up in the Church and how the stories keep changing, so forgive me if I'm a little stressed out. I don't have all the answers.
Anonymous | 9:30 a.m. July 22, 2008
Why does this have to be a mormon issue? What if it was just a group of men, who
happen to be LDS? Why drag the church into this? Why bring it up at all?
It's ancient history. Let's get passed this. Ah, the anti's
can't. Get a flippin' life!
Chain of Command | 10:02 a.m. July 22, 2008
There is a perfectly simple lesson to be learned here. If you disagree with what
a Church leader is saying or doing, follow the chain of command. If a Stake
President, such as Haight was, orders something you feel is wrong, take it to
the next level. Take it up with an Area Authority. If what they say seems wrong,
take it to the Apostles. If they seem wrong, take it to the First Presidency. If
they seem wrong, take it to God directly.
That is the chain of command. God is at the top. Everyone else in the chain is imperfect and subject to error and corruption. You should never think you are under any obligation to do or say something you do not believe to be right unless God Himself commands you directly. Everyone else is a mediator between you and God. Do not ever let any of them lead you away from God's will.
That is the chain of command. God is at the top. Everyone else in the chain is imperfect and subject to error and corruption. You should never think you are under any obligation to do or say something you do not believe to be right unless God Himself commands you directly. Everyone else is a mediator between you and God. Do not ever let any of them lead you away from God's will.
anony | 11:46 a.m. July 22, 2008
Why don't non-Mormons spend as much time investigating and discussing the
slaughter at Hawn's Mill and the driving of people from Missouri and
Illinois?
"The dogs may bark at our heels but the wagon train moves on."
"The dogs may bark at our heels but the wagon train moves on."
Nedra | 12:30 p.m. July 22, 2008
YEAH! i agree, and who killed Joseph Smith and Hyrum and Parley P Pratt. We want
to know? These men should have markers talking about the tragic murders. They
were humans.
PEE WEE | 1:39 p.m. July 22, 2008
I think the MMM needs to be forgotten and everybody needs to go home. I say to
all people who think it is part of their life....Leave it alone! and don't
touch the fish!
Daisy | 3:49 p.m. July 22, 2008
I have commented many times on different subjects , and have only had a couple
of them posted. If you are not going to post comments, why even have it after
storys?
Fred | 3:58 p.m. July 22, 2008
There are 284 comments and the book is not even out yet, so we don't even
know what it says.
Should be a great read when it is published next month.
Should be a great read when it is published next month.
the truth | 4:27 p.m. July 22, 2008
Things do not happen in a vacuum.
You must put all this in historical context to understand why this happend at all.
You must understand how defensive the mormons were at that time.
Having been murdered, raped, their property taken from them, kick out of misssouri with order of extermination, their leader murder, and being kicked out illinoise in the dead of winter.
Then the threat of war from the federal government against the mormons after running way to utah to live in some land no one thought was any good for anything.
Was the fancher party poisoning wells. could have.
Living in a desert, water is vital for life.
Was the fancher party spying for the federal army? Could have, that is good as any reason to shoot them.
Did Brigham order this. Very unlikely. Certainly out character. NO other wagon train before was attacked. He never order attacks in missouri or illinoise or anywhere else.
And there is plenty of evidence the he told people just to let them through, while not giving any help.
Why wait till cedar city to do anything?
IT would be very much out character to order this, and there is no precedence.
You must put all this in historical context to understand why this happend at all.
You must understand how defensive the mormons were at that time.
Having been murdered, raped, their property taken from them, kick out of misssouri with order of extermination, their leader murder, and being kicked out illinoise in the dead of winter.
Then the threat of war from the federal government against the mormons after running way to utah to live in some land no one thought was any good for anything.
Was the fancher party poisoning wells. could have.
Living in a desert, water is vital for life.
Was the fancher party spying for the federal army? Could have, that is good as any reason to shoot them.
Did Brigham order this. Very unlikely. Certainly out character. NO other wagon train before was attacked. He never order attacks in missouri or illinoise or anywhere else.
And there is plenty of evidence the he told people just to let them through, while not giving any help.
Why wait till cedar city to do anything?
IT would be very much out character to order this, and there is no precedence.
David | 4:39 p.m. July 22, 2008
What does "Under the Banner of Heaven" have to do with the LDS Church?
A couple of nuts that were excommunicated from the church, murdered a woman and
her baby. I'm ex-lds and have read the book, so I find the comment you
made bizarre since one does not relate to the other. If reading a book that has
nothing to do with the church made your sister not want the missionaries
anymore, you have a strange sister.
Waiting | 5:12 p.m. July 22, 2008
Perhaps we should comment after everyone has had a chance to read the book, and
I hope the world doesn't come to an end when it is released. We don't
need another massacre.
Ned | 5:31 p.m. July 22, 2008
I agree with "the truth" You are correct.
JULIO | 5:48 p.m. July 22, 2008
SLOW SSSSSSSSSS SORRY I ALSO HAVE TO WORK. EVERY DAY I DEAL WITH DEATH AND
DYING. I ENJOYED YOUR COMMENTS ON MMM . AS FAR AS YOUR OTHER QUESTIONS CONTINUED
STUDY AND PRAYER WILL RESOLVE THOSE.GOOD LUCK WITH THAT
BUY THE BOOK READ IT PRAY ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!
BUY THE BOOK READ IT PRAY ABOUT IT!!!!!!!!!!
SlowS | 6:11 p.m. July 22, 2008
JULIO, thank you. I look forward to reading the book and then comparing it with
other accounts and deciding for myself. Bless you for your work.
Moved on! | 6:49 p.m. July 22, 2008
You can complain all you want but the caravan is moving on and stronger each
day. The thirteen billion members are testiment to that fact! Get a life antis
an perhaps investigate the true gospel which God has restored to us!
MMan | 7:16 p.m. July 22, 2008
That's billion with an "M".
Re: moved on. | 7:23 p.m. July 22, 2008
Isn't it 13 million (not billion). Anyway, I am hanging on with all my
might, mind and strength to the "caravan". But the barking dogs are
pretty loud and it makes my ears ring sometimes! Oh well, I guess there are no
other "carvans" for them to bark at, is there? Unto whom else shall
they bark?
re Waiting | 7:28 p.m. July 22, 2008
I�m also looking forward to reading the book. A lot of
articles have already been published from the authors regarding their research,
so most of the major conclusions are already available. Unlike previous
apologist accounts, it doesn�t vilify the Fancher Party and
dismisses some common myths that keep popping up. Neither does it delve too
deeply into Brigham�s involvement if there was any at all.
Expect it to get into some of the psychological aspects of what the Mormons
dealt with at the time.
From the articles that I read, I'm expecting that it will treat both sides fairly. I don�t see why we all need to refrain from commenting, now.
From the articles that I read, I'm expecting that it will treat both sides fairly. I don�t see why we all need to refrain from commenting, now.
Oh yeah! | 7:44 p.m. July 22, 2008
You people need some real history. This is book is probably written to protect
the church.
Richard | 8:26 p.m. July 22, 2008
Joe Friday: You are going to give me citations, huh? You can ask any farmer up
here in Wyoming where I now live about the dangers from a spring and Giardia and
people getting sick and dying from it. We use these springs for our water source
and they do get contaminated. Salt water in the ocean is not a yarn, it is
really there. Try going sometime, you can taste it.
Shelley: What thje heck are you talking about? I never said that over a hundred people were not slaughtered. Try reading my other posts if you care enough to respond to me. Also, likely you did not read the article. How presumptuous?!? How am I presumptuous? I have read Turley's work before on other things and am familiar with him. That does not make me presumptuous but likely more informed than YOU about the matter. If there are so many sources of information from imperfect beings (i.e. humans) there will be disagreements. Jews claim several million died under Hitler's death camps whereas some other sources claim half million. MMM was well documented by the Mormon families raising th surviving children which are not "found only in the vault."
Shelley: What thje heck are you talking about? I never said that over a hundred people were not slaughtered. Try reading my other posts if you care enough to respond to me. Also, likely you did not read the article. How presumptuous?!? How am I presumptuous? I have read Turley's work before on other things and am familiar with him. That does not make me presumptuous but likely more informed than YOU about the matter. If there are so many sources of information from imperfect beings (i.e. humans) there will be disagreements. Jews claim several million died under Hitler's death camps whereas some other sources claim half million. MMM was well documented by the Mormon families raising th surviving children which are not "found only in the vault."
Leala | 8:33 p.m. July 22, 2008
Thirteen million (not billion) is still a hefty package and the caravan does
indeed move on. The baptist and catholics are just plain scared of the convert
rates and I would chalk many of the anits up to that. I am sad for you whom
think you are Christian but have not accepted the true gospel---not very
Christian but just plain ANTI!
Kalie Ann | 8:41 p.m. July 22, 2008
I hope this book gives me a "peace" of mind which I need. I plan to
buy it.
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Richard Turley, left, and Ron Walker, co-authors of "Massacre at Mountain Meadows," at the Church Office Building in Salt Lake City in June.
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Still working on the "erred" thing. I must have misspelled something seeing as I don't spank English very well. Say, you wouldn't happen to be an English professor, too, would you?