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Book confronts LDS tragedy
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Chuckles55 | 12:40 a.m. July 19, 2008
My wife and I recently visited the massacre site and were pleased to see the
recently dedicated monument. We also went to the hill overlooking the valley
where we read the names of those who were the victims and looked through the
siting tubes to see both the site of the siege and of the massacre. Later, we
went to Lees Ferry and saw where John D. Lee lived in hiding until he was
arrested, incarcerated and later shot as the only person ever convicted of any
crime in the massacre. I am looking forward to reading the first book and the
follow-on volumes.
What happens.... | 12:56 a.m. July 19, 2008
if they find evidence that positively reveals that Brigham Young directly
ordered the massacre?
What will the Church do? What will the membership do?
What if they find evidence indicating only a cover-up?
Even if no evidence is found that implicates Brigham Young then the public may think this is all just a modern day cover up sponsored by the church.
Its a no win situation.
What will the Church do? What will the membership do?
What if they find evidence indicating only a cover-up?
Even if no evidence is found that implicates Brigham Young then the public may think this is all just a modern day cover up sponsored by the church.
Its a no win situation.
Jason | 1:32 a.m. July 19, 2008
As I've looked into this horrible and unjustified event in LDS history,
I've contemplated what it would be like at the judgement seat, when we all
stand in front of our Maker and give an accounting of our lives. Those involved
in this event will have this opportunity just like everyone else. They will
answer to the n'th degree, UNLESS they take advantage of the Lord's
atonement. There is no escaping justice for mercy cannot rob justice. Repentance
is their only hope as it is with us all.
Many who have angst against the church have looked at this event with over-zealous outrage, and have used it to further their goal of humiliating the members. Anyone who would try to sweep this event under the rug for fear of it ruining testimonies or causing people to question the truthfulness of the church are without faith. I fully understand the weakness of men, the influence of satan, and the holes we dig for ourselves. This is the very purpose of the Atonement and it isn't our place to judge. For you conspiracy theorists who want to denigrate the church, I say you are no better than the Mountain Massacre men.
Many who have angst against the church have looked at this event with over-zealous outrage, and have used it to further their goal of humiliating the members. Anyone who would try to sweep this event under the rug for fear of it ruining testimonies or causing people to question the truthfulness of the church are without faith. I fully understand the weakness of men, the influence of satan, and the holes we dig for ourselves. This is the very purpose of the Atonement and it isn't our place to judge. For you conspiracy theorists who want to denigrate the church, I say you are no better than the Mountain Massacre men.
Comments continue below
To What happens.... 12:56 | 4:39 a.m. July 19, 2008
If Will Bagley couldn't find a "smoking gun" what makes you think
any legitimate historian?
I agree it's a no win situation. But at least the LDS Church is doing what they can to acknowledge what happened.
Of course, I know some people won't be satisfied until President Monson holds a news conference and says, "OK, We admit it! Brigham Young ordered the MMM. Now we will everyone please form a line so we can start handing out the checks."
I agree it's a no win situation. But at least the LDS Church is doing what they can to acknowledge what happened.
Of course, I know some people won't be satisfied until President Monson holds a news conference and says, "OK, We admit it! Brigham Young ordered the MMM. Now we will everyone please form a line so we can start handing out the checks."
Again and again | 4:59 a.m. July 19, 2008
This book will no doubt stir up the exact same debate every previous book on the
subject has stirred up before. Some will argue one point, others will argue
another point.
Then, in a short time, everyone will move on and get back to other questions of history, such as who really shot JFK, did Elvis really die in 1977, was Monticello just an 18th century version of the Playboy Mansion, and of course, did George Washington really cut down that cherry tree?
Then, in a short time, everyone will move on and get back to other questions of history, such as who really shot JFK, did Elvis really die in 1977, was Monticello just an 18th century version of the Playboy Mansion, and of course, did George Washington really cut down that cherry tree?
Re: What happens... | 5:17 a.m. July 19, 2008
They've already discovered that there is absolutely no evidence that
Brigham Young directly ordered the massacre, and in fact a lot of evidence that
points to the idea that he tried to stop it, but didn't reach them in time.
There are multiple journal accounts and stories passed down through the
generations by the messenger sent to SLC to ask BY whether or not they should go
through with the massacre, and BY's reply to the horrified negative, and
also similar stories told by BY's maid and others.
The idea that he possibly helped to cover up the crimes is another story. They are still researching that aspect of it, and what they may find may be troubling to some members of the church. I certainly don't know how I'd feel about it, learning that a president of the church helped cover up a massacre. Unfortunately, much of the evidence is not something we, as normal people researching online or in the library, can find. But these professional researchers are finding it, and eventually, we'll know the truth of that part as well, whatever it may be.
The idea that he possibly helped to cover up the crimes is another story. They are still researching that aspect of it, and what they may find may be troubling to some members of the church. I certainly don't know how I'd feel about it, learning that a president of the church helped cover up a massacre. Unfortunately, much of the evidence is not something we, as normal people researching online or in the library, can find. But these professional researchers are finding it, and eventually, we'll know the truth of that part as well, whatever it may be.
Ed | 5:26 a.m. July 19, 2008
As a foreign born missionary called to serve in California, I remember how
shocked I was after learning for the first time of this tragedy from my
companion from Southern Utah. What I also felt was tragic was the line he took
of "They had it coming". He would have pulled the trigger too and
followed the line of authority as he saw it. Very sad. The top leadership of
the Church may not have been involved before the massacre but logic says they
must have got involved with "protection" afterwards with only one
person being punished.
What happens | 6:16 a.m. July 19, 2008
For everyone not dedicated to finding fault with the Church ... life will go
right on.
Most will continue to live the best lives they can, repent, forgive, try to follow the Savior.
It's not our place to judge. The Lord knows.
MMM is not a stain on anyone living today, and on only a very few back then.
Like all mistakes made by other mortals, it's not worth obsessing about.
Most will continue to live the best lives they can, repent, forgive, try to follow the Savior.
It's not our place to judge. The Lord knows.
MMM is not a stain on anyone living today, and on only a very few back then.
Like all mistakes made by other mortals, it's not worth obsessing about.
Ron in Texas | 6:43 a.m. July 19, 2008
Replying to What happens..., it has been known for some time (by fair-minded
historians) that Brigham Young did not order the massacre. What this article
stated is that his wartime, bellicose language contributed to the environment
that led to the decision by local leaders to carry out the massacre. And
that's nothing new. And its a timely warning for us all. We know that
Brigham said a lot of things during his lifetime that were not inspired. We
can't claim he never said them. Truth is what it is. As a lifelong member,
and one who loves history, I'm glad the book was written with the
cooperation and encouragement of the First Presidency. Being honest about past
mistakes is not going to harm us today. No enemy will be persuaded, perhaps, but
no friend will be repulsed.
Anonymous | 6:48 a.m. July 19, 2008
I personally know Rick Turley and have been aware of his involvement on this
project for the past five years. This book was supposed to be finished a long
time ago, but the authors found more information than they ever anticipated and
it kept pushing back the publication date.
I'm very anxious to finally read their book. I know that they have gone to GREAT LENGTHS to research every detail and undoubtably this will be the most comprehensive account ever written.
I'm very anxious to finally read their book. I know that they have gone to GREAT LENGTHS to research every detail and undoubtably this will be the most comprehensive account ever written.
Did Brigham Young sin? Yes! | 6:54 a.m. July 19, 2008
What happens,
"if they find evidence that positively reveals that Brigham Young directly ordered the massacre?"
Then they will publish it. It would be good for the Church, its member and the public to know all the facts regardless of who is to blame.
"What will the Church do? What will the membership do?"
We will add one more thing to the list of sins and weaknesses of Brigham Young who is not perfect and who lived in his time. Now, if there is ever proof that God is the one who ordered Young to order the massacre we might have serious doctrinal issues to deal with since we teach that God is perfect and therefore he wouldn't order a massacre of innocent people.
"What if they find evidence indicating only a cover-up?"
Then they will add that to the list instead of an actual ordering of the massacre by general Church leaders.
"Even if no evidence is found that implicates Brigham Young then the public may think this is all just a modern day cover up sponsored by the church."
The public can think whatever it wants but it also needs to meet its burden of proof.
"if they find evidence that positively reveals that Brigham Young directly ordered the massacre?"
Then they will publish it. It would be good for the Church, its member and the public to know all the facts regardless of who is to blame.
"What will the Church do? What will the membership do?"
We will add one more thing to the list of sins and weaknesses of Brigham Young who is not perfect and who lived in his time. Now, if there is ever proof that God is the one who ordered Young to order the massacre we might have serious doctrinal issues to deal with since we teach that God is perfect and therefore he wouldn't order a massacre of innocent people.
"What if they find evidence indicating only a cover-up?"
Then they will add that to the list instead of an actual ordering of the massacre by general Church leaders.
"Even if no evidence is found that implicates Brigham Young then the public may think this is all just a modern day cover up sponsored by the church."
The public can think whatever it wants but it also needs to meet its burden of proof.
CITIZEN | 6:53 a.m. July 19, 2008
GOD made them do it!!!!
Camp Grant Massacre | 7:04 a.m. July 19, 2008
The historians say that in the 19th century the MMM was used as a club to try
and injure and destroy the church. Nothing has changed.
Watch as the enemies of the church start pouring venom into these comments, as seen already in the second comment. I certainly won't be watching. I will be entirely ignoring the comments. If I want to know more, I'll read the book and not the comments.
There is no excuse for the MMM. An explanation, perhaps, but not an excuse.
There is also no reason to continue using MMM as a club any more than we need to use the Camp Grant Massacre as a club against the government of Tucson, AZ. After all, over 100 innocent women and children were killed by a mob led by a mayor of Tucson. The city government must be trying to cover up its involvement in that massacre.
Let's force the government of Tucson to issue a yearly apology for the Camp Grant Massacre.
Watch as the enemies of the church start pouring venom into these comments, as seen already in the second comment. I certainly won't be watching. I will be entirely ignoring the comments. If I want to know more, I'll read the book and not the comments.
There is no excuse for the MMM. An explanation, perhaps, but not an excuse.
There is also no reason to continue using MMM as a club any more than we need to use the Camp Grant Massacre as a club against the government of Tucson, AZ. After all, over 100 innocent women and children were killed by a mob led by a mayor of Tucson. The city government must be trying to cover up its involvement in that massacre.
Let's force the government of Tucson to issue a yearly apology for the Camp Grant Massacre.
Brigham's Culpability | 7:09 a.m. July 19, 2008
About the issue of Brigham Young's role:
I think that to some people, Brigham Young will always be the ultimate culprit. Others wouldn't want to admit it, no matter what.
I myself think that, although he was a prophet, he also was a human being, and, being far removed from the center, his ability to anticipate what would ensue can be a subject for speculation. We can't know the emotions he had; did they cloud his reasoning or prevent him from paying attention to more or less subtle warnings? We can't know for sure.
I want to read the book and digest it. It's encouraging to me that there is a strong commitment to honesty at the highest levels of the Church.
And, as humans, we must be able to learn to forgive. I live in a country that has been run over by aggressive neighbors, but I don't hold our current neighbors responsible for the acts of their forbears. Bearing grudges and harboring thoughts of revenge never did anybody any good.
I think that to some people, Brigham Young will always be the ultimate culprit. Others wouldn't want to admit it, no matter what.
I myself think that, although he was a prophet, he also was a human being, and, being far removed from the center, his ability to anticipate what would ensue can be a subject for speculation. We can't know the emotions he had; did they cloud his reasoning or prevent him from paying attention to more or less subtle warnings? We can't know for sure.
I want to read the book and digest it. It's encouraging to me that there is a strong commitment to honesty at the highest levels of the Church.
And, as humans, we must be able to learn to forgive. I live in a country that has been run over by aggressive neighbors, but I don't hold our current neighbors responsible for the acts of their forbears. Bearing grudges and harboring thoughts of revenge never did anybody any good.
Wilford | 7:15 a.m. July 19, 2008
Anyone who has studied utah mormon history has learned that BY's hands are
not all clean of the MMM. Why all the white wash, why not open the church
records to true indepentend researchers for writting of an accurate account of
history. The last time the church did so Fawn M. Brodie was able to produce
historical information that was helpful in revealing mormon history. It is like
the mormon church thinks it can get to heaven on a carpet of lies. They are as
bad, or worse than the washington polititions. Where is God in all of this.
Stop the self-flagellation | 7:24 a.m. July 19, 2008
Enough of the self-flagellation! It's like Mormons are being to write
Communist style confessions over and over again about what terrible people we
are because our persecuted ancestors finally hit back.
Yes, they tried to cover it up. No, they didn't do it again...unlike the mobs in Illinois and Missouri. It was a mistake, not a sign of the character of the people.
Let it rest.
Yes, they tried to cover it up. No, they didn't do it again...unlike the mobs in Illinois and Missouri. It was a mistake, not a sign of the character of the people.
Let it rest.
Cats | 7:30 a.m. July 19, 2008
People can speculate all they want that Brigham Young was involve with the
massacre, but the fact is that the evidence just ISN'T THERE! In fact, it
is just the opposite.
Of course, it was a terrible tragedy and those involved have a lot to answer for. However, this thing didn't happen in a vaccuum. There were a lot of surrounding circumstances and factors that lead the terrible decision that these pioneers made.
The whole thing is so sad, but I hope the descendants of this groups can finally move on and get over this.
The bottom line is that the Church leadership in Salt Lake, including Brigham Young, had nothing to do with this. It was the actions of a few frightened, misguided individuals in Southern Utah.
I hope we all can move on now.
Of course, it was a terrible tragedy and those involved have a lot to answer for. However, this thing didn't happen in a vaccuum. There were a lot of surrounding circumstances and factors that lead the terrible decision that these pioneers made.
The whole thing is so sad, but I hope the descendants of this groups can finally move on and get over this.
The bottom line is that the Church leadership in Salt Lake, including Brigham Young, had nothing to do with this. It was the actions of a few frightened, misguided individuals in Southern Utah.
I hope we all can move on now.
Objective | 7:39 a.m. July 19, 2008
As objective as this book seems to be, there will never be a full answer. It
looks like people who had recently been persecuted perceived a threat and
resorted to a preemptive attack before attempting diplomacy. We weren't
there, we don't understand what persecution and murder of family and
friends can do to our emotions, and we will struggle to understand irrational
behavior. I wait to read the comments of those who will impose today's
understanding on a 150 year old event, and conclude that a coverup continues.
MAYBEE | 7:42 a.m. July 19, 2008
The devil made them do it!!!!
Ricki | 7:47 a.m. July 19, 2008
Seriously...get over it and pop your Mormon bubble. It is insane to me that the
LDS spend so much time working out every single detail of their past. It is
what it is. It can't be changed. Different authors using different words
can't change what happened... so get over it. Scripture tells me that our
Heavenly Father could care less about yesterday. His concern is for your today
and the plans He has for your tomorrow - to give you a hope and a future.
Get Over It. | 7:46 a.m. July 19, 2008
Yeah, and the Catholics, Baptists, Muslims, Adventists, Methodists, etc. never
had an a handful of drunk, vengeful wild men (like Lee) in their congregations?
Yeah, and so these religions never had anyone in their groups seek revenge toward people who might have been part of mobs who ran them out of their home a couple of years earlier?
Yeah, and what are the REAL MOTIVES of the authors of this book? Are they not doing on white pages to the Mormon Church what the Missouri mobs did a couple year's earlier to Lee's friends and relatives? A term comes to mind: "Gotcha' journalism" for a few days of fame and a few sheckles.
Yeah, and so these religions never had anyone in their groups seek revenge toward people who might have been part of mobs who ran them out of their home a couple of years earlier?
Yeah, and what are the REAL MOTIVES of the authors of this book? Are they not doing on white pages to the Mormon Church what the Missouri mobs did a couple year's earlier to Lee's friends and relatives? A term comes to mind: "Gotcha' journalism" for a few days of fame and a few sheckles.
tragedy??? | 7:49 a.m. July 19, 2008
how about 'slaughter'?
Carlsons | 7:54 a.m. July 19, 2008
Our family is grateful to these researchers.
They are a much more trustworthy source than several who have published their interpretations in the past.
We look forward to the book.
They are a much more trustworthy source than several who have published their interpretations in the past.
We look forward to the book.
Pete | 7:56 a.m. July 19, 2008
The "church" finally admitted their involvement in the massacre and
they apologized. Clearing the names of the Indian tribes they blamed. It is a
time to heal and a time to move forward. But, this new evidence begs what other
information that "has never before been available to researchers" is
in the archives owned by the LDS church, and will they allow others researchers
examine it?
history nut | 7:57 a.m. July 19, 2008
"What happens" is correct. The biggest mistake these authors made was
not to include a reputable non-LDS western history scholar on this project. The
fact that the project spent millions that could only have been authorized by the
most senior LDS officials will just heighten the suspicion.
It will be interesting to see if the scholarly history journals even review it.
It will be interesting to see if the scholarly history journals even review it.
Gentile | 8:00 a.m. July 19, 2008
To the Bush-Wacking, Back-Stabbing, Lying, Mormon Cult-ure; we don't get
mad, we get even!
interested | 8:52 a.m. July 19, 2008
this is new to me,i am not LDS.but i am interested to know more about the
story.i want to know what the reasons behind the cruel massacre?why nobody dare
to stand up and speak the truth?i cant wait to read the book.
Leslie | 9:01 a.m. July 19, 2008
I am looking forward to reading this book. I had an ancestor who may have been
involved in the massacre, and I have also heard from many old timers who have
said an believed Brigham Young was involved in the massacre. Will we ever learn
the truth?
To Jason | 9:05 a.m. July 19, 2008
Sounds like what you are saying is that the mormon church is your church right
or wrong. So what if it is just plain old the wrong church do you still stay
with it no matter what.
A reminding friend | 9:09 a.m. July 19, 2008
"What happens...", please remember that YEARS of research went into
this book, and it is VERY well documented so anybody will be able to discover
the truth about this subject. Of course there will be those who will not accept
the truth and continue to spread lies, so yes, many may call this a "cover
up." But I know Richard Turley well enough to know that he is an especially
honest man, and his hard work has uncovered some sad things, but nothing that
implicates Brigham Young ordered the massacre. Read the book yourself, research
the given evidence, and pass the suggestion on to those others who make
immediate judgment without knowledge.
Robert | 9:09 a.m. July 19, 2008
I look forward to reading the book next month. Much credit should go to Juanita
Brooks, the first author to research the Mountain Meadows events and write a
credible history of it. Much of what she wrote has since been updated, but the
basic story she told is the foundation for all later history, including the one
that is the subject of this story.
One part of the modern story could have been covered in this article, but wasn't: how the modern church has changed its attitude toward the massacre and allowed its historians to use heretofore protected documents. This article refers to the newly released documents as coming from "the first presidency's vault", but does not tell us how they came to be released. Juanita Brooks mentioned in the forward of her book that Presidents McKay and Clarke would not allow her to review them, and criticized them for it. But things have changed, obviously, and why they have changed, as well as the discussions between today's church leadership that have brought the new documents to light, would make a very interesting story, one that everyone could learn from.
One part of the modern story could have been covered in this article, but wasn't: how the modern church has changed its attitude toward the massacre and allowed its historians to use heretofore protected documents. This article refers to the newly released documents as coming from "the first presidency's vault", but does not tell us how they came to be released. Juanita Brooks mentioned in the forward of her book that Presidents McKay and Clarke would not allow her to review them, and criticized them for it. But things have changed, obviously, and why they have changed, as well as the discussions between today's church leadership that have brought the new documents to light, would make a very interesting story, one that everyone could learn from.
Rich | 9:11 a.m. July 19, 2008
This was a very good article...I have been a member for over 11yrs now and since
I have learned about the tragedy, I have felt that Brigham did have something to
do with this. I also believe that Brigham had something to do with Jospeh murder
too. Brigham did a lot of damage to the church. Granted he was able to get
people out west but that is about all good he did...
arc | 9:12 a.m. July 19, 2008
What happens..
People have been looking for over a hundred years to find evidence Brigham ordered the attack. No one, even the biggest critics of the church have found any concrete evidence.
These 3 were told to find and write the truth. It is obvious that they are telling what they believe to be true. People on both sides have distorted the truth over the years. It is refreshing to see what they have written. Some previews have been made public, and they have been very, very interesting to read.
What is interesting is the modivations of what happened. Utah was at war with the federal government. Mistakes were made. People were killed. The real tragedy was the massacre itself was a local cover-up. It was bad enough for the initial shooting, but the rounding up and killing most of the rest was the worst part.
The only reason to bring this up, after so many years, in my opinion, is to learn from the past. These were asked to help for us to do that.
Too many other writers have had one or two reasons for writing. Defend or tear down the church. Lets move past that.
People have been looking for over a hundred years to find evidence Brigham ordered the attack. No one, even the biggest critics of the church have found any concrete evidence.
These 3 were told to find and write the truth. It is obvious that they are telling what they believe to be true. People on both sides have distorted the truth over the years. It is refreshing to see what they have written. Some previews have been made public, and they have been very, very interesting to read.
What is interesting is the modivations of what happened. Utah was at war with the federal government. Mistakes were made. People were killed. The real tragedy was the massacre itself was a local cover-up. It was bad enough for the initial shooting, but the rounding up and killing most of the rest was the worst part.
The only reason to bring this up, after so many years, in my opinion, is to learn from the past. These were asked to help for us to do that.
Too many other writers have had one or two reasons for writing. Defend or tear down the church. Lets move past that.
wicked | 9:10 a.m. July 19, 2008
I can't help but think of the cathlick church leaders and what they did in
their time as spirtual leaders not only these two christion sects - pretty
wicked . What makes these HUMANS think they are exempt ? All will be known when
it is over. Now to search for a human who is PERFECT and still on earth.
Timothy E. | 9:14 a.m. July 19, 2008
I hope the LDS church doesn't cover Brigham Young's tracks in his
involvement in the Mountains Meadows massacre, so there can be peace for all and
the blame not shoved completely to just the men involved. I really dislike
cowards.Nevertheless, I will by the book. I hope to find that it has been
written truthfully and not cowardly.
wicked | 9:17 a.m. July 19, 2008
I can't help but think of the catholic church leaders and what they did in
their time as spirtual leaders not only these two christion sects - pretty
wicked . What makes these HUMANS think they are exempt ? All will be known when
it is over. Now to search for a human who is PERFECT and still on earth.
A new era | 9:20 a.m. July 19, 2008
I hope that this book and the Joseph Smith papers truly begin a new era of
honesty for the Church. It may result in some lost testimonies that have been
built on a very different version of our history. But it will move us into a
future of new testimonies built upon truth. Built upon a different origin and
history than many of us learned in seminary and our living rooms but at least an
honest one. I forsee my grandchildren in an LDS Church that emphasizes the
atonement and the Savior with much less emphasis on our origins and early
teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young which can be so problematic and
confusing.
Kip Meacham | 9:25 a.m. July 19, 2008
From the article's conclusion: "[Ron] Walker said he's come to
see the massacre as a cautionary tale in making judgments about those who are
different.
""It's a primer to teach us about humility and long-suffering. ... It's a case-study in how not to apply religion and how one should apply true religion in one's own life," he said."
From the looks of the comments so far, I think Walker's conclusion hits the nail on the head.
""It's a primer to teach us about humility and long-suffering. ... It's a case-study in how not to apply religion and how one should apply true religion in one's own life," he said."
From the looks of the comments so far, I think Walker's conclusion hits the nail on the head.
Simple | 9:23 a.m. July 19, 2008
Brigham Young and the members of the LDS church were paranoid, and that is why
the massacre happened. Nothing more to be said.
Jon | 9:31 a.m. July 19, 2008
I think it sounds like a fascinating book. I intend to read it before making up
my mind about this subject. I particularly liked Barlow's comment about
the Church being comprised of normal humanity, trying to respond to the Divine,
rather than being Divine in and of itself (with a few warts and wrinkles or
course). I certainly have never felt divine, but I have tried to respond to the
Divine to the best of my ability.
finally | 9:44 a.m. July 19, 2008
Does anyone really think that things are different now than they were then?
Things are still being covered up. Not by the church but by the men! Not by the
devil but by men! Not by the good men but by the bad men. And it should
stop!
"It is the nature and disposition of : 'almost all men'" as it is written in the D. and C. "as soon as they get a little authority...they begin to exercize unrighteous dominion over their fellow men.
What men do does not change one whit the gospel of Jesus Christ. It does give one pause however. Why are men so greedy, selfish, power hungry? Especially those in positions of power in governments, business or churchs.
Please don't blame it on the devil.
Blame it on the mother in law if you want but not the devil.
"It is the nature and disposition of : 'almost all men'" as it is written in the D. and C. "as soon as they get a little authority...they begin to exercize unrighteous dominion over their fellow men.
What men do does not change one whit the gospel of Jesus Christ. It does give one pause however. Why are men so greedy, selfish, power hungry? Especially those in positions of power in governments, business or churchs.
Please don't blame it on the devil.
Blame it on the mother in law if you want but not the devil.
Todd C. | 9:42 a.m. July 19, 2008
Even if Brigham Young did not directly order the massacre, he certainly covered
it up and certainly FAILED to manage and control official local leaders of his
Church. At very least, he was guilty of a coverup and guilty of NEGLIGENCE as
the Chief Officer of the Church at that time.
More importantly, the local leaders explicitly claimed they were acting under what they considered to be orders from Church headquarters! They sincerely believed they were carrying out God's will as it came to them through the Prophet and the Church chain of command! Most of them (especially John D. Lee) were sickened by what they thought they were being asked to do, but they exercised faith in their leaders -- looking back we can call it blind and murderous faith, but at the time, they thought they were being truly faithful!
How different is that to the blind faith Church members are expected to exercise in trying fight against same-sex marriage?
No matter how you look at it, the idea of following your local (or general) Church leaders without question is DANGEROUS! How many more people's lives must be destroyed before Latter-day Saints learn that important lesson?!
More importantly, the local leaders explicitly claimed they were acting under what they considered to be orders from Church headquarters! They sincerely believed they were carrying out God's will as it came to them through the Prophet and the Church chain of command! Most of them (especially John D. Lee) were sickened by what they thought they were being asked to do, but they exercised faith in their leaders -- looking back we can call it blind and murderous faith, but at the time, they thought they were being truly faithful!
How different is that to the blind faith Church members are expected to exercise in trying fight against same-sex marriage?
No matter how you look at it, the idea of following your local (or general) Church leaders without question is DANGEROUS! How many more people's lives must be destroyed before Latter-day Saints learn that important lesson?!
lynn in TN | 9:48 a.m. July 19, 2008
Thank you. May this be the final word. Excellent scholarship for all to
peruse.
What happens? What if? | 9:49 a.m. July 19, 2008
Even after exhaustive research, some will still not see the light. Not because
it's not there, but because they refuse to. If one refuses to believe
regardless of the amount of irrefutable evidence presented, the only ones who
are edified by it are those who choose to believe it.
No amount of evidence, support, documentation or substantiation will ever provide enough "proof" to someone who is so steeped in their hate for any thing to convince them otherwise. They will stand in the sunlight and deny its existence.
But we believe in free agency to let them choose to believe/disbelieve what they will. Yet, with free agency comes responsibility and an accounting will be required at some point. There may or may not be more to learn on this subject, but it is a beg step for the Church to admit some culpability, take the heat and move on positively. All men are fallible. Only God and His Church are not.
Let the past - and the hate - go. Forgive men their trespasses. God will take care of the rest.
No amount of evidence, support, documentation or substantiation will ever provide enough "proof" to someone who is so steeped in their hate for any thing to convince them otherwise. They will stand in the sunlight and deny its existence.
But we believe in free agency to let them choose to believe/disbelieve what they will. Yet, with free agency comes responsibility and an accounting will be required at some point. There may or may not be more to learn on this subject, but it is a beg step for the Church to admit some culpability, take the heat and move on positively. All men are fallible. Only God and His Church are not.
Let the past - and the hate - go. Forgive men their trespasses. God will take care of the rest.
Hoss | 9:59 a.m. July 19, 2008
Where are the winners?
I only see groups of mostly good people, except for one, with needs that sometimes compete.
1,There are the descendants and relatives of the victims who would like their kin recognized as ordinary decent people who didn�t deserve the treatment they received.
2.There are the relatives and descendants of the perpetrators, participants and actors who feel a need to defend the reputations of their family heritage and to minimize this stain.
3.There is the need of church leadership to protect itself and the general church membership from the decades of significant and unjustified physical, legal, financial, verbal and social assaults.
4There is the general membership who wants the world to understand this event in the context of the historical settings.
5.There are the bigoted ardent opponents to the church who could care less if Brigham Young was involved or not. They are only seeking for issues to continue their quest to destroy the church as an organization and people. Any anomaly will do, real or contrived, as they have an agenda that is much bigger than the issue at hand and have no interest in the truth or fairness.
I only see groups of mostly good people, except for one, with needs that sometimes compete.
1,There are the descendants and relatives of the victims who would like their kin recognized as ordinary decent people who didn�t deserve the treatment they received.
2.There are the relatives and descendants of the perpetrators, participants and actors who feel a need to defend the reputations of their family heritage and to minimize this stain.
3.There is the need of church leadership to protect itself and the general church membership from the decades of significant and unjustified physical, legal, financial, verbal and social assaults.
4There is the general membership who wants the world to understand this event in the context of the historical settings.
5.There are the bigoted ardent opponents to the church who could care less if Brigham Young was involved or not. They are only seeking for issues to continue their quest to destroy the church as an organization and people. Any anomaly will do, real or contrived, as they have an agenda that is much bigger than the issue at hand and have no interest in the truth or fairness.
Annie | 10:00 a.m. July 19, 2008
Brigham Young was one tough man and he had complete control over the LDS church.
He was in my opinion most definitely involved! Let's get this right and not
shove the entire blame on Brigham Young's adopted son John D. Lee and the
rest of those hard working LDS pioneers, who also all supported Brigham Young
completely.
Richard | 10:01 a.m. July 19, 2008
I have done extensive research on this topic in college and believe that putting
out yet another book is more like a few authors attempt to get some certain
notoriety and money rather than finding "astonishing new evidence only
found here". The massacre was a tragedy and continues to be a scar in the
settlers' past throughout the entire area from AZ through WY and wherever
someone hears about it elsewhere when missionaries are trying to bring their
message and someone has recently read this new book but never really understands
persecution or the social climate of a few settlers having to choose between the
surrounding tribal neighbors trying to live peacably when others of their race
come through knocking down fences and poisoning tribal waterholes ending in the
deaths of several people before the massacre ever happened. I would think it not
very smart to brag about dirty deeds one had done to Mormons when crossing their
lands knocking down fences and making their neighbvors angry who already
didn't trust their kind. We will not understand the dynamics of the social
situation exactly ever so stop stirring the pot for money or notoriety.
Everything coming out now is hypothetical.
Let's learn and move on!! | 10:10 a.m. July 19, 2008
I'm very interested in reading this book. This tragedy does not seem to
really be about mormonism at all, rather about human beings in circumstances of
extreme stress and fear. Had these men truly followed the principles taught by
the LDS religion, none of this would have happened. We're all human,
regardless of the religion we claim. Maybe there are lessons we can ALL learn
from a tragedy such as this, then let's move on and be better people
because of it.
John | 10:21 a.m. July 19, 2008
Of course the church will cover for Brigham Young's hand in the
MOUNTAIN'S MEADOWS MASSACRE, because he was the churches leader. The church
cannot let a dark side be known or cast on this so called prophet. What ashame
to hide the truth.
Fredd | 10:22 a.m. July 19, 2008
Joseph Smith warned against, "zeal without knowledge." Yet today if
you bring up knowledge, archeology, genetics etc members say they have
"faith". They don't need science. Science is knowledge. Every
TBM on these boards who says they have faith and don't need science is
practising "zeal without knowledge" and would be the type of person to
participate in an MMM.
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Richard Turley, left, and Ron Walker, co-authors of "Massacre at Mountain Meadows," at the Church Office Building in Salt Lake City in June.
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