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Readers' forum: Homosexuality ruins lives
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Bert | 7:14 p.m. July 16, 2008
The definition of marriage has already changed. Get over it.
Gay people are getting married all over the world and yes even here in the US. You can kick and fight against it with your bigoted antiquated minds, but in the end it's already here.
It is eventually going to be decided by the Supreme Court that when one state grants a marriage license other states must honor it.
Businesses have already embraced it - and we all know that Capitalism drives what is accepted in this country.
Gay people are getting married all over the world and yes even here in the US. You can kick and fight against it with your bigoted antiquated minds, but in the end it's already here.
It is eventually going to be decided by the Supreme Court that when one state grants a marriage license other states must honor it.
Businesses have already embraced it - and we all know that Capitalism drives what is accepted in this country.
To Sarah | 7:15 p.m. July 16, 2008
Nobody want to "Blast" you.
You should remember that scripture only matters to somebody if they believe it.
Many people have written scripture's, and they are people, nothing more.
But you are a good person anyway, by the way you sound. Do you really think that certain groups of people who just might have been born different should be held back for persicution? Even if they are good people who do nothing bad to anybody?
You should remember that scripture only matters to somebody if they believe it.
Many people have written scripture's, and they are people, nothing more.
But you are a good person anyway, by the way you sound. Do you really think that certain groups of people who just might have been born different should be held back for persicution? Even if they are good people who do nothing bad to anybody?
Comments continue below
I see quotations of scriptures | 7:34 p.m. July 16, 2008
On here...ok believe them if you will. What you need to realize is that many
people do not! Each church interprets them as they will as well as each person
and there are many different beliefs there too! Live and let live and love and
let love!
To Charles | 7:39 p.m. July 16, 2008
Well, gee, I'm so glad I have you around to help me think!
I am fully aware of the "reason" for men and women. Nobody argues that a species survives through heterosexual reproduction. But if you want to get into that realm, go read about the normality of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom, and we'll discuss it.
But no, this issue is about controlling people's actions. You say that homosexuality is not a right, but I ask you, why not? Is it outlined anywhere that it is NOT a right.
I suspect you are the type of person that some of the Founders feared when writing the Bill of Rights: that people would take them to mean that they were our ONLY rights, and nothing else could be considered a "right".
In my view homosexual actions are as immoral as heterosexual immorality. However, I also believe in freedom and free agency that God gave to us. That free agency dictates we have the "right" to live our lives how we view is best.
If you want to talk about what isn't a right, here's one: you do NOT have a right to force your beliefs on others.
I am fully aware of the "reason" for men and women. Nobody argues that a species survives through heterosexual reproduction. But if you want to get into that realm, go read about the normality of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom, and we'll discuss it.
But no, this issue is about controlling people's actions. You say that homosexuality is not a right, but I ask you, why not? Is it outlined anywhere that it is NOT a right.
I suspect you are the type of person that some of the Founders feared when writing the Bill of Rights: that people would take them to mean that they were our ONLY rights, and nothing else could be considered a "right".
In my view homosexual actions are as immoral as heterosexual immorality. However, I also believe in freedom and free agency that God gave to us. That free agency dictates we have the "right" to live our lives how we view is best.
If you want to talk about what isn't a right, here's one: you do NOT have a right to force your beliefs on others.
Bert | 7:42 p.m. July 16, 2008
To those who say it is the behavior not the person who is bad think about this.
What if there was a young man in you Ward who openly was affected by �same sex attraction�. He never acted on these feelings. He obeyed the law of chastity, but was completely honest and open about his �issues�.
How would you feel if he was called on a mission and was assigned to be your son�s companion?
What if he came back from his mission and was called to be your child�s primary teacher?
Can you really detach your feelings about behavior from the person?
What if there was a young man in you Ward who openly was affected by �same sex attraction�. He never acted on these feelings. He obeyed the law of chastity, but was completely honest and open about his �issues�.
How would you feel if he was called on a mission and was assigned to be your son�s companion?
What if he came back from his mission and was called to be your child�s primary teacher?
Can you really detach your feelings about behavior from the person?
John Lambert | 7:48 p.m. July 16, 2008
To the responder at 2:14,
I do not think all someone can do is just get accept bullies and teasing. That is a really stupid position.
I in no way support making fun of people for what they do. I think a lot of what some people say is mean-spirited.
However I have also notice that it is often the people who try to claim homosexual behavior is in born who are also the most willing to mock a given behavior as proving someone is homosexual.
I on the other hand am rarely convinced. I hate the movie "Legally blonde" because it supports the stereotype that if a man knows what is up with fashion he must be a homosexual. That is just down right stupid. I have known people who if some people saw them driving down the street in their car others might call them a homosexual, but they are happily married with three kids. People should stop making outward judgements.
No, kids being cruel is not inevitable. We need to teach children proper respect towards other people.
I do not think all someone can do is just get accept bullies and teasing. That is a really stupid position.
I in no way support making fun of people for what they do. I think a lot of what some people say is mean-spirited.
However I have also notice that it is often the people who try to claim homosexual behavior is in born who are also the most willing to mock a given behavior as proving someone is homosexual.
I on the other hand am rarely convinced. I hate the movie "Legally blonde" because it supports the stereotype that if a man knows what is up with fashion he must be a homosexual. That is just down right stupid. I have known people who if some people saw them driving down the street in their car others might call them a homosexual, but they are happily married with three kids. People should stop making outward judgements.
No, kids being cruel is not inevitable. We need to teach children proper respect towards other people.
to my slc | 8:01 p.m. July 16, 2008
of course religion makes laws. Are you stupid or something? Have you looked at
the laws throughout the US lately? They are all based on some sort of religious
background.
Your ignorance is astounding. Maybe you should deal with the fact that religious people aren't going anywhere and the more you sexual revolution people push, we will come out of the woodworks and reclaim this nation and crush you to the outer ends of society.
You deal with it.
Your ignorance is astounding. Maybe you should deal with the fact that religious people aren't going anywhere and the more you sexual revolution people push, we will come out of the woodworks and reclaim this nation and crush you to the outer ends of society.
You deal with it.
John Lambert | 8:04 p.m. July 16, 2008
To fr1nk,
There is no law that forbids homosexuals to marry. The marriage laws say nothing about sexual orientation. All they say is that a marriage must be between a man and a woman.
If you can think of a way to forbid Mormons from marrying that will be a universally applicable law than go for it. You could ban people marrying someone of their same race, but that would not completely stop Mormon marriages and would lead you into the problem that there is no biological deffinition of race nor does it have any relevance to someones ability to be a parent nor are emotional and psycholigical conditions as closely linked to race as to sex.
The laws against same sex marriage are universally applicable, any law dealing with race and marriage faces the problem that China has 36 defined races, and those are just ones in China.
There is no law that forbids homosexuals to marry. The marriage laws say nothing about sexual orientation. All they say is that a marriage must be between a man and a woman.
If you can think of a way to forbid Mormons from marrying that will be a universally applicable law than go for it. You could ban people marrying someone of their same race, but that would not completely stop Mormon marriages and would lead you into the problem that there is no biological deffinition of race nor does it have any relevance to someones ability to be a parent nor are emotional and psycholigical conditions as closely linked to race as to sex.
The laws against same sex marriage are universally applicable, any law dealing with race and marriage faces the problem that China has 36 defined races, and those are just ones in China.
John Lambert | 8:11 p.m. July 16, 2008
I quote from one of my personal heroes, Boyd K. Packer,
"They say were anti intelect
Afriad to even think
Our paranoid deep fear of truth
Has caused our minds to shrink.
Were bigoted and prejudiced
Withdrawn, afraid, regressive
They must speak out and save the church
Someone must be progressive
But Oh, how dear we think the thought
Oh no, they're no where near it
How could we even possibly believe
That they are anti-spirit."-Boyd K. Packer
I do have to say it is nice to see the proponants of same-gender marriage coming out in their true colors of hating religious, mocking the Apostles at every turn, and claiming that religion is opposed to morality.
It is nice to see people who make sure to call anyone who calls homosexual behavior a sin a "bigotted hate filled homophobe".
I will say it once more. Homosexual conduct is an abomination in the sight of the Lord. Whether it is a side dabbling by a man who normally has sex with females or it is the only sexual behavior someone engages in it is still wrong and stands condemned.
"They say were anti intelect
Afriad to even think
Our paranoid deep fear of truth
Has caused our minds to shrink.
Were bigoted and prejudiced
Withdrawn, afraid, regressive
They must speak out and save the church
Someone must be progressive
But Oh, how dear we think the thought
Oh no, they're no where near it
How could we even possibly believe
That they are anti-spirit."-Boyd K. Packer
I do have to say it is nice to see the proponants of same-gender marriage coming out in their true colors of hating religious, mocking the Apostles at every turn, and claiming that religion is opposed to morality.
It is nice to see people who make sure to call anyone who calls homosexual behavior a sin a "bigotted hate filled homophobe".
I will say it once more. Homosexual conduct is an abomination in the sight of the Lord. Whether it is a side dabbling by a man who normally has sex with females or it is the only sexual behavior someone engages in it is still wrong and stands condemned.
John Lambert | 8:22 p.m. July 16, 2008
Robert Oh,
There are some major issues you ignore. To began with I have not called anyone sinful, I have called behavior sinful.
Secondly, it is Liberals who always claim that tolerance is the highest value and then will not give it back.
Thirdly, you are the first person in this whole discussion to use the word schizophrenic.
What you fail to accept is that we do not accept that the sin defines the man. A person is not just the sum of their sins, all men are children of God and of value. He gives commandments unto his children to bless them and to help them progress.
We seperate the behavior from the person, we constantly amke sure to say that we condemn people mocking or attacking people who struggle with same-sex attraction. To violently attack someone just because you do not like what they do is to take the law into your own hands and is unacceptable.
However, this does not mean we have to accept public policy that will openly promote the acceptance of destructive behavior. To fully explain why we oppose government recognition of same-gender marriage we must be able to mention the ills.
There are some major issues you ignore. To began with I have not called anyone sinful, I have called behavior sinful.
Secondly, it is Liberals who always claim that tolerance is the highest value and then will not give it back.
Thirdly, you are the first person in this whole discussion to use the word schizophrenic.
What you fail to accept is that we do not accept that the sin defines the man. A person is not just the sum of their sins, all men are children of God and of value. He gives commandments unto his children to bless them and to help them progress.
We seperate the behavior from the person, we constantly amke sure to say that we condemn people mocking or attacking people who struggle with same-sex attraction. To violently attack someone just because you do not like what they do is to take the law into your own hands and is unacceptable.
However, this does not mean we have to accept public policy that will openly promote the acceptance of destructive behavior. To fully explain why we oppose government recognition of same-gender marriage we must be able to mention the ills.
Charles | 8:23 p.m. July 16, 2008
Dear Bert, I'd welcome you as my home teacher any day of the week. However,
if you are like most, I'll see you on the last day of the month....but come
on over because you'd be treated just like your companion who likes girls
and yet remains chaste and virtuous until marriage and then complete fidelity
after.
Think of all the STD's we wouldn't have to spend money on if people just obeyed the Law of Chastity. Think of the newly apportioned $50 Billion, you got it, Billion, we are spending on AIDS. A disease that could be stopped immediately if people could just keep their pants on.
Come on over Bert...we'll have some cookies and milk ready for you.
Think of all the STD's we wouldn't have to spend money on if people just obeyed the Law of Chastity. Think of the newly apportioned $50 Billion, you got it, Billion, we are spending on AIDS. A disease that could be stopped immediately if people could just keep their pants on.
Come on over Bert...we'll have some cookies and milk ready for you.
True marriage | 8:24 p.m. July 16, 2008
Homosexuals have nothing of themselves to pass on to the next generation because
they cannot produce offspring. They may adopt children but those children will
carry the DNA of their biological parents. One of the joys of heterosexual
marriage is an opposite sex couple can have children who will pass their traits
on to countless generations giving the parents a type of immortality.
Homosexuals may get married and in fact the nation may one day legalize it.
However they will never get the true intended benefits of marriage, a posterity.
John Lambert | 8:30 p.m. July 16, 2008
To Choice,
Do you also feel that we should legalize the use of heroin, cocaine etc. Do you feel we should only ticket drunk drivers when they actual hit someone?
However you also miss the whole point of the debate in California. It is not about whether people practice homosexual behavior or not. It is about will the government make same gender marriage a positive public policy goal.
If you really want to understand look up "marriage" and "public policy" on google. There is a group out there that has put together a very well reasoned explanation with various explanations of what happens when same gender marriages recieves public policy endorsement.
Also, go and read "The Family, A Proclamation to the World".
Do you also feel that we should legalize the use of heroin, cocaine etc. Do you feel we should only ticket drunk drivers when they actual hit someone?
However you also miss the whole point of the debate in California. It is not about whether people practice homosexual behavior or not. It is about will the government make same gender marriage a positive public policy goal.
If you really want to understand look up "marriage" and "public policy" on google. There is a group out there that has put together a very well reasoned explanation with various explanations of what happens when same gender marriages recieves public policy endorsement.
Also, go and read "The Family, A Proclamation to the World".
MY SLC | 8:34 p.m. July 16, 2008
"you should deal with the fact that religious people aren't going
anywhere and the more you sexual revolution people push, we will come out of the
woodworks and reclaim this nation and crush you to the outer ends of
society."
Sounds real Christian to me.
Sounds real Christian to me.
John Lambert | 8:48 p.m. July 16, 2008
To Bert,
If the person was trying to heal ad trying to get rid of his behaviors why would I even know unless they were my sibbling or I was the bishopr?
What do you mean by being open and honest about their behavior? Getting up in fast and testimony meeting and saying that they have at times felt a desire to have sexual relations with a member of the same sex but through the help of the Lord have been able not to act on such desires?
Well, I am not sure if would be appropriate to say that much openly in fast and testimony meeting but I would have no problem with such a person being a primary teacher if they really were not acting on these issues.
This reminds me, people misunderstnd the issue with homosexuals and the boy scouts. A man who has felt homosexual desires can be a boy scout leader as long as he does not promote them and he does not commit homosexual actions.
I can not fully answer the question until I understand what being open about homosexual tendencies while following the commandments of God would look like.
If the person was trying to heal ad trying to get rid of his behaviors why would I even know unless they were my sibbling or I was the bishopr?
What do you mean by being open and honest about their behavior? Getting up in fast and testimony meeting and saying that they have at times felt a desire to have sexual relations with a member of the same sex but through the help of the Lord have been able not to act on such desires?
Well, I am not sure if would be appropriate to say that much openly in fast and testimony meeting but I would have no problem with such a person being a primary teacher if they really were not acting on these issues.
This reminds me, people misunderstnd the issue with homosexuals and the boy scouts. A man who has felt homosexual desires can be a boy scout leader as long as he does not promote them and he does not commit homosexual actions.
I can not fully answer the question until I understand what being open about homosexual tendencies while following the commandments of God would look like.
John Lambert | 8:51 p.m. July 16, 2008
To continue my last statement,
THere was a guy on here earlier who openly admitted that he had dealt with homosexual attraction in the past.
Some people mocked him and said he should come out of the closet. I stood by him and told them that they were the ones being insensitive.
The problem is that people who had previously dealt with homosexual attraction and admit that they have moved on are seen as such a political threat that no limit to attacks are possible.
I also have to say it gets my blood boiling when people claim that a person in the ward is gay, even in jest. I think people should not joke about such things.
If someone really does deal with homosexual attractions, and is trying to overcome them than all the more power to htem. I may have known people in this condition who met with the bishop. People who deal with masturbation do not have to openly admit it to other congregation members if they deal with it to the leaders of the church.
THere was a guy on here earlier who openly admitted that he had dealt with homosexual attraction in the past.
Some people mocked him and said he should come out of the closet. I stood by him and told them that they were the ones being insensitive.
The problem is that people who had previously dealt with homosexual attraction and admit that they have moved on are seen as such a political threat that no limit to attacks are possible.
I also have to say it gets my blood boiling when people claim that a person in the ward is gay, even in jest. I think people should not joke about such things.
If someone really does deal with homosexual attractions, and is trying to overcome them than all the more power to htem. I may have known people in this condition who met with the bishop. People who deal with masturbation do not have to openly admit it to other congregation members if they deal with it to the leaders of the church.
John Lambert | 9:00 p.m. July 16, 2008
I just have one more thought. As a missionary I would have had no problem
having a companion who had dealt with and overcome same sex attraction.
However, I would not treat lightly sending someone who dealt with such attractions on a mission. Depending on the situation it might be better to give them a local mission assignment.
I am sure there are some people who could handle being a full time missionary just fine, but there are other people who would be put in too much temptation if sent out. One needs to form a deep bond of unity with a mission companion, and if you have even very limited levels of same-sex attraction this could have damaging results.
There are lots of issues here. I am not sure, but if the person had ever been involved with homosexual actions than I am sure there is a pretty strict standard for sending them on a mission, but if it is just attraction than I think the issue would be more at the disgretion of the bishop and stake president. I think the good of the man must be weighed based on individual circumstances.
However, I would not treat lightly sending someone who dealt with such attractions on a mission. Depending on the situation it might be better to give them a local mission assignment.
I am sure there are some people who could handle being a full time missionary just fine, but there are other people who would be put in too much temptation if sent out. One needs to form a deep bond of unity with a mission companion, and if you have even very limited levels of same-sex attraction this could have damaging results.
There are lots of issues here. I am not sure, but if the person had ever been involved with homosexual actions than I am sure there is a pretty strict standard for sending them on a mission, but if it is just attraction than I think the issue would be more at the disgretion of the bishop and stake president. I think the good of the man must be weighed based on individual circumstances.
How sad... | 9:04 p.m. July 16, 2008
The feeling I get here is that many on the pro-homosexual bandwagon have one
thing in common. They simply lack a moral base. From what I've determined
from their posts, they think that true freedom is 'being able to whatever I
want whenever I want'. Therefore as long as we have laws forbidding
certain types of behavior we will never be truly free.
The other concern for me is that they fill their actions have no impact on anyone else's life. No matter how much they tell themselves this it simply isn't true. Many people are effected, generations of people are effected, by individual choices we make today. There is a rippling effect that can not be denied. If we accept gay marriage today, where will that lead us in the future? Will it stop there? This isn't about individual rights, but about the moral fiber of this country.
As we as a society start messing with the moral foundation of this country, namely marriage, our country and way of life will crumble. This isn't exclusive to homosexuality, but to premarital sex, pornography, adultery, pedophilia, and so on. These are currently being tolerated, accepted, and embraced which is truly frightening.
The other concern for me is that they fill their actions have no impact on anyone else's life. No matter how much they tell themselves this it simply isn't true. Many people are effected, generations of people are effected, by individual choices we make today. There is a rippling effect that can not be denied. If we accept gay marriage today, where will that lead us in the future? Will it stop there? This isn't about individual rights, but about the moral fiber of this country.
As we as a society start messing with the moral foundation of this country, namely marriage, our country and way of life will crumble. This isn't exclusive to homosexuality, but to premarital sex, pornography, adultery, pedophilia, and so on. These are currently being tolerated, accepted, and embraced which is truly frightening.
California LDS | 9:34 p.m. July 16, 2008
Bridger, it is not homosexuality that ruins people's lives; it is the
bigoted cultural context in which homosexuals are forced to live that ruins
lives.
I recommend you read an old article called "On Being Sane in Insane Places" by David L. Rosenhahn. The same phenomenon applies. You put anyone in a social context that has rules and prohibitions that are contrary to their beliefs, natural inclinations, and lifestyle, and they will manifest "insane" behavior -- or, rather, their behavior will be mis-diagnosed and wrongly classified as "destructive", "deviant", and "dysfunctional."
The fight (call it war if you like) for same-sex marital rights is a fight (war) to establish a more SANE and HUMANE social context in which homosexual people can experience a more sane life because they have some of the support, rights, and legitimacy that heterosexual couples take for granted.
More importantly for heterosexuals, the fight for same-sex marriage will also establish a social context in which YOU can live a more healthy, humane, and sane lifestyle because it will be a culture where you cannot narcissistically, ethnocentrically, and egotistically continue to take your privileged status for granted!
Everyone benefits from a society built on legal equality! EVERYONE!
I recommend you read an old article called "On Being Sane in Insane Places" by David L. Rosenhahn. The same phenomenon applies. You put anyone in a social context that has rules and prohibitions that are contrary to their beliefs, natural inclinations, and lifestyle, and they will manifest "insane" behavior -- or, rather, their behavior will be mis-diagnosed and wrongly classified as "destructive", "deviant", and "dysfunctional."
The fight (call it war if you like) for same-sex marital rights is a fight (war) to establish a more SANE and HUMANE social context in which homosexual people can experience a more sane life because they have some of the support, rights, and legitimacy that heterosexual couples take for granted.
More importantly for heterosexuals, the fight for same-sex marriage will also establish a social context in which YOU can live a more healthy, humane, and sane lifestyle because it will be a culture where you cannot narcissistically, ethnocentrically, and egotistically continue to take your privileged status for granted!
Everyone benefits from a society built on legal equality! EVERYONE!
Anonymous | 9:51 p.m. July 16, 2008
John Lambert, you have driven more people away from the LDS Church, or OUT of
the LDS Church than you can possibly count by your know-it-all comments that
wreak of religious fanaticism just like they have in Iraq.
I pray God dispenses His justice on you for your sinful condemnation of other human beings and your willingness to deprive equality under the law to other human beings.
You belong in Nazi Germany, not in 21st Century America. Shame on you.
I pray God dispenses His justice on you for your sinful condemnation of other human beings and your willingness to deprive equality under the law to other human beings.
You belong in Nazi Germany, not in 21st Century America. Shame on you.
Let's See? | 10:19 p.m. July 16, 2008
Hen I was a child I had the overwhelming urge to beat the crap out of one of my
little sisters. Does that make me an assailant? Would I have been ok to come
out of the closet and do the deed? By many of the above listings, I feel that
it would have been ok. Now, before you all start saying that this is different
because assault is illegal then I would say have the law changed to make assult
legal and now we are equal footing. Would I now be OK? Not on your life!!!!
Just because one has propensity to do something wrong, illegal, immoral, out of
the norm does not give carte blanc to be that way. IT IS A CHOICE not a forced
action.
To Happy as I am | 10:22 p.m. July 16, 2008
Of course you are happy. "you will have joy in your works for a season and
then the end comes"
Wendy | 10:24 p.m. July 16, 2008
I actually think that the stance that the mormon church has taken will actually
increase their membership. I know I am not a mormon but I am thinking of joining
because they seem to be the only sane church left! I think there numbers are
going to jump!
Which parent would you give up | 10:27 p.m. July 16, 2008
Nobody talks about the children.
Same sex marriage is going to hurt kids. Talk about rights the rights of children who are born in the future should be thought of.
Same sex marriage is going to hurt kids. Talk about rights the rights of children who are born in the future should be thought of.
Sarah | 10:31 p.m. July 16, 2008
I don't think that anybody should be persecuted. But I don't believe
that following the laws of the land (regardless of why or on whose judgement
they were created), and expecting others to do the same, is persecution. Nor do
I think that following the advice of my Priesthood leaders, who have oftentimes
been able to see what I have not, is persecution.
I realize that homosexuals have been persecuted, which I think is horrible. But early members of my church have also been persecuted. I can't help but compare the reacions of the two groups. One is forcing people to believe as they do, showing intolerance and hatred for everybody who disagrees, and forcing the courts to back their decisions. The other quietly packed up the few belongings they were able to save, and moved from place to place, seeking tolerance, until they were finally able to live in peace. They didn't force anybody to accept them or follow their beliefs.
The Christians are not interested in persecuting anybody, but in standing up for their beliefs. They are not anti-gay, they are pro-traditional marriage. And they are called all manner of hateful things by those claiming the persecution. Ironic.
I realize that homosexuals have been persecuted, which I think is horrible. But early members of my church have also been persecuted. I can't help but compare the reacions of the two groups. One is forcing people to believe as they do, showing intolerance and hatred for everybody who disagrees, and forcing the courts to back their decisions. The other quietly packed up the few belongings they were able to save, and moved from place to place, seeking tolerance, until they were finally able to live in peace. They didn't force anybody to accept them or follow their beliefs.
The Christians are not interested in persecuting anybody, but in standing up for their beliefs. They are not anti-gay, they are pro-traditional marriage. And they are called all manner of hateful things by those claiming the persecution. Ironic.
jackhp | 11:12 p.m. July 16, 2008
"There is no such thing as a 'right' to marry."
Wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, you're just wrong. Read the CA Supreme Court decision "In re Marriage Cases" and you just might learn something new Charles.
"There is no such thing as a 'right' to a homosexual marriage."
Technically correct. However, in California, the right to marry (see above) cannot be denied on the basis of sexual orientation. Gay people DO have the right to marry a person of the same gender as themselves.
Sorry buddy, it's true, marriage is a right and gay people cannot be denied the right to marry a person of the same gender.
Now, about your "original thought" nonsense, aren't you being a bit of a hypocrite in calling others popinjays when it is you who has fallen in love with his own pointless drivel, such that you deem it worth repeating again and again?
Wrong. It doesn't matter how many times you say it, you're just wrong. Read the CA Supreme Court decision "In re Marriage Cases" and you just might learn something new Charles.
"There is no such thing as a 'right' to a homosexual marriage."
Technically correct. However, in California, the right to marry (see above) cannot be denied on the basis of sexual orientation. Gay people DO have the right to marry a person of the same gender as themselves.
Sorry buddy, it's true, marriage is a right and gay people cannot be denied the right to marry a person of the same gender.
Now, about your "original thought" nonsense, aren't you being a bit of a hypocrite in calling others popinjays when it is you who has fallen in love with his own pointless drivel, such that you deem it worth repeating again and again?
Ilandra | 12:05 a.m. July 17, 2008
For crying out loud it states in the bible "If a man lay with a man as he
lays with a woman then both shall perish. If a man lays with an animal then the
same shall happen." Or something to that effect but if you have read the
bible you know that what I am saying is true.
Same sex marriage is not a marriage. Marriage is and always will be defined as between One man and One woman. End of story.
Just because the states are allowing it (completely bogus.) Does not make it right.
God will show them the error of their ways eventually.
Same sex marriage is not a marriage. Marriage is and always will be defined as between One man and One woman. End of story.
Just because the states are allowing it (completely bogus.) Does not make it right.
God will show them the error of their ways eventually.
Rape, Incest, Polygamy, etc. | 12:06 a.m. July 17, 2008
Rape, Incest, Polygamy, Adultery, Fornication, Sodomy, Pedophilia, and many
other forms of sin all because of one is heterosexual.
So, to say that homosexuals are sin, and abominable to God, perhaps none of the examples are abominable to God when you use your logic.
If so, then we must use that heterosexuality is a great sin creator, as it causes all the forms listed above.
So, to say that homosexuals are sin, and abominable to God, perhaps none of the examples are abominable to God when you use your logic.
If so, then we must use that heterosexuality is a great sin creator, as it causes all the forms listed above.
TO: Rape, Incest, Polygamy, etc. | 3:10 a.m. July 17, 2008
What? Why are you are pointing a finger at heterosexuals? Homosexuals also
engage in this behavior, but it doesn't make it right from either side. All
of it is atrocious and an absolute abomination in the sight of God. None of
these acts of immorality trumps the other. I don't get your logic here at
all.
The fact is that they are all sin; homosexuality, premarital sex, rape, pornography, adultery, fornication, sodomy, pedophilia, incest, and the list goes on and on. They are all destructive to our society as a whole. They are also all in the same classification of immorality. You could make the argument that some of it is more severe than others (pedophilia) and some are more of a gateway sin (pornography). However they all carry with them consequences. You choose to be involved in these behaviors and you will find pleasure in their season, but by and by the end cometh and eventually you will become enslaved with an overwhelming burden. Why is it so hard to do what's right and follow the basic laws of God?
"For my yoke is easy and my burden is light..."
The fact is that they are all sin; homosexuality, premarital sex, rape, pornography, adultery, fornication, sodomy, pedophilia, incest, and the list goes on and on. They are all destructive to our society as a whole. They are also all in the same classification of immorality. You could make the argument that some of it is more severe than others (pedophilia) and some are more of a gateway sin (pornography). However they all carry with them consequences. You choose to be involved in these behaviors and you will find pleasure in their season, but by and by the end cometh and eventually you will become enslaved with an overwhelming burden. Why is it so hard to do what's right and follow the basic laws of God?
"For my yoke is easy and my burden is light..."
Lie exposer | 8:39 a.m. July 17, 2008
JJV:
50% of marriages do not fail. That is a lie
50% of marriages do not fail. That is a lie
Dear Mr. Talbot | 9:36 a.m. July 17, 2008
I find it so sad for your small minded views. I am so glad that I no longer
have to be apart of a religion that I feel like I have to follow blindly what
some supposed "prophet" tells me to do. Instead now, I think for
myself! You have no idea AT ALL what it is like to be gay, and until you do, I
suggest you do not discriminate. Homosexuality does not ruin lives, in fact, I
am a very happy homosexual and my life is wonderful. I live with the love of my
life and we are free, wonderful individuals. My family loves him and his family
loves me! Lastly and the thing that no one seems to get is that just because
you think gay marriage is wrong, or immoral, or whatever, it still does not give
you the right to say I can't do it. It is pure discrimination and
Un-American! We all live in this country and make our own decisions... my gay
marriage won't hurt anyone, so you should stay out of it!
Thanks
Mike Mayers
Salt Lake City
Thanks
Mike Mayers
Salt Lake City
Anonymous | 10:05 a.m. July 17, 2008
It's judgemental people like this that ruin peoples lives.
Holier than thou | 10:13 a.m. July 17, 2008
It's sanctimonious people that ruin peoples lives.
RSB | 10:39 a.m. July 17, 2008
At one point I was mired in promiscuity. It came to the point where I had to
either completely give in to the activity or completely forsake it. A type of
point of no return. I chose to completely forsake it, and not turn back. It
was extremely difficult, as I went through a dark period of depression that
lasted a few months. To get through it, I leaned on principles like those taught
in Hebrews 11:13 where it states something like "not having received the
promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and
embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the
earth." This doctrine helped me know that a rest from my trial in
overcoming my previous activities would come sometime, maybe not even in this
life. I state that as this principle became more ingrained in me, the trial
didn't seem as tumultuous. I could feel spiritual aid helping me to
overcome the trial and I knew that if I could stick to this I can be happy. And
this decision to overcome my sins has brought me more happiness than everything
else that has happened in my life.
Anonymous | 11:29 a.m. July 17, 2008
Marriage is not just definined as a union between two members of the opposite
sex for financial and social advantage. Reproduction is the end result of
marriage. Natural, biological reproduction.
The idea behind our creation was to include in reproduction both male and female intelligence along with both male and female DNA. The combination of nature within an infant continues to be a necessity for growth and development. Despite the opinions of society, this is a constant and is not negotiable. Hence the need for both a mother and father - the two parts of the child.
I agree with the author that this is a socially and morally evil practice. And the author already covered this topic well enough so I won't reiderate.
Also, the laws of this land already allows anyone to adjust legal documents to something that equals marriage. Tax breaks also exist.
So there is only one conclusion to why the gay community is seeking legalized marriage - to force all christian religious sects to perform them, and to ruin the credability and sovereignty of these churches. It is to impose the will of the State over religion.
It is a means to gain fascist power.
The idea behind our creation was to include in reproduction both male and female intelligence along with both male and female DNA. The combination of nature within an infant continues to be a necessity for growth and development. Despite the opinions of society, this is a constant and is not negotiable. Hence the need for both a mother and father - the two parts of the child.
I agree with the author that this is a socially and morally evil practice. And the author already covered this topic well enough so I won't reiderate.
Also, the laws of this land already allows anyone to adjust legal documents to something that equals marriage. Tax breaks also exist.
So there is only one conclusion to why the gay community is seeking legalized marriage - to force all christian religious sects to perform them, and to ruin the credability and sovereignty of these churches. It is to impose the will of the State over religion.
It is a means to gain fascist power.
Charles | 11:42 a.m. July 17, 2008
thanks for the update jackhp and your original thoughts. Wait, you didn't
provide any. If people like you on here are going to say that those who
don't believe like you aren't capable of original thoughts then yes,
you need to provide your original thoughts as proof that you can indeed do
it.
Otherwise, you just continue to look foolish and stupid.
If there is a 'right' to marry, then any and all versions should be allowed. Cousins, brothers/sisters, polygamy, 2 guys 1 gal, 2 gals 1 guy, etc. If you don't support those versions of marriage then you do think the government has the ability to limit marriage as it sees fit.
The CA judges are just trying to legislate from the bench; which is the only way homosexuals want it. They know they can't get their agenda passed in any legislature so they run to the courts and the courts comply with their wishes.
That's what happened in 1973 when SCOTUS said women had a right to murder their unborn child in the name of choice. How selfish and incredible.
Homosexual behavior is and always will be unnatural and immoral. Our society is loves its Satan
Otherwise, you just continue to look foolish and stupid.
If there is a 'right' to marry, then any and all versions should be allowed. Cousins, brothers/sisters, polygamy, 2 guys 1 gal, 2 gals 1 guy, etc. If you don't support those versions of marriage then you do think the government has the ability to limit marriage as it sees fit.
The CA judges are just trying to legislate from the bench; which is the only way homosexuals want it. They know they can't get their agenda passed in any legislature so they run to the courts and the courts comply with their wishes.
That's what happened in 1973 when SCOTUS said women had a right to murder their unborn child in the name of choice. How selfish and incredible.
Homosexual behavior is and always will be unnatural and immoral. Our society is loves its Satan
Anonymous | 12:29 p.m. July 17, 2008
to Mike Mayers,
We would stay out of your desired marriage if your desired marriage did not interfere with our rights of religion and federalism. It does.
You claim to want liberty, but dare to have the courts and the likes of the ACLU impose such things on us rather than respect our liberties.
Europe is allowing what you want.
Utah is not Europe.
If you don't like it, we're not forcing you to stay.
We would stay out of your desired marriage if your desired marriage did not interfere with our rights of religion and federalism. It does.
You claim to want liberty, but dare to have the courts and the likes of the ACLU impose such things on us rather than respect our liberties.
Europe is allowing what you want.
Utah is not Europe.
If you don't like it, we're not forcing you to stay.
TO:Anonymous | 12:29 p.m | 12:52 p.m. July 17, 2008
Iran is allowing what you want.
Utah (and the United States) is not Iran.
If you don't like it, we're not forcing you to stay.
PS - What liberty is being taken away from you? Granting someone else a liberty that you do not like is not taking away your liberties. What liberty are you talking about? You can worship any way you want to now and after same sex marriage. Your religion is just not encoded in law. That is not taking away any of your rights. What are you talking about?
Utah (and the United States) is not Iran.
If you don't like it, we're not forcing you to stay.
PS - What liberty is being taken away from you? Granting someone else a liberty that you do not like is not taking away your liberties. What liberty are you talking about? You can worship any way you want to now and after same sex marriage. Your religion is just not encoded in law. That is not taking away any of your rights. What are you talking about?
Posterity? | 1:14 p.m. July 17, 2008
We are all related. The more we try to follow DNA the more behind we get! It
can be interesting, but it is not necessary to have a full life. Putting too
much emphasise on "posterity" is hurtful to some people. There are
many women that find themselves unable to produce children. There are people
that can produce one or two (or should produce just one or two). There are
people that have many children and do a good job. Sadly, there are people that
have many children and don't do a good job. Some of those children are
adopted by those willing to care for them and they are their parents every bit
as much (or more) than their biological parents. Biology doesn't a parent
make.
To Anonymous | 1:22 p.m. July 17, 2008
"Marriage is not just definined as a union between two members of the
opposite sex for financial and social advantage. Reproduction is the end result
of marriage. Natural, biological reproduction."
Fair enough.
Now using your logic, that means, my 2 married brothers, and some of our friends are not legally and morally married, because, one brother can't have kids, and the other don't want kids. My 2 friends who are struggling to have children after much time has passed and, a miscarriage.
Sad that your understanding of marriage are so narrow.
So, VERY narrow.
But I don't blame you though, because this narrow attitude came down straight from your prophet, so, how can you be anything, but?
I don't blame the Mormons with their bigotted, judgemental, and look down upon attitudes, because any prejudices in this world, such as the Mormons, and many others, it came straight from the top.
Heck, the Mormons were prejudiced against blacks.
It's this reason and many other prejudices that testify to my soul that this can't be the Christ I worship, who makes these policies.
It absolutely doesn't make sense that He died for the sins of Homos, just to then criticize them.
Fair enough.
Now using your logic, that means, my 2 married brothers, and some of our friends are not legally and morally married, because, one brother can't have kids, and the other don't want kids. My 2 friends who are struggling to have children after much time has passed and, a miscarriage.
Sad that your understanding of marriage are so narrow.
So, VERY narrow.
But I don't blame you though, because this narrow attitude came down straight from your prophet, so, how can you be anything, but?
I don't blame the Mormons with their bigotted, judgemental, and look down upon attitudes, because any prejudices in this world, such as the Mormons, and many others, it came straight from the top.
Heck, the Mormons were prejudiced against blacks.
It's this reason and many other prejudices that testify to my soul that this can't be the Christ I worship, who makes these policies.
It absolutely doesn't make sense that He died for the sins of Homos, just to then criticize them.
Daniel | 2:34 p.m. July 17, 2008
50% of marriages do not fail. That statistic is flawed because they get it by
taking the total amount of marriages that take place THAT year and they compare
it with the TOTAL amount of divorces that took place that year regardless of
whether they took place in that year or not.
Anonymous | 2:57 p.m. July 17, 2008
to anonymous @ 9:51
John Lambert has been one of the few reasonable and comprehendible people that have posted on this thread. He has laid out his beliefs in a respectful way and he deserves that respect in return. Why is it ok for people like you to tell him that his beliefs are wrong, but whenever anyone questions whether homosexuality is morally right they must be attacked. I guarantee you that Lambert's comments have not driven away a single member of the church and to make such a claim is ridiculous.
John Lambert has been one of the few reasonable and comprehendible people that have posted on this thread. He has laid out his beliefs in a respectful way and he deserves that respect in return. Why is it ok for people like you to tell him that his beliefs are wrong, but whenever anyone questions whether homosexuality is morally right they must be attacked. I guarantee you that Lambert's comments have not driven away a single member of the church and to make such a claim is ridiculous.
John Lambert | 2:57 p.m. July 17, 2008
To California LDS,
If you feel so strongly in favor of same gender marriage why are you still in the church?
You are advocating ideas and actions in direct contradiction to the teachings of the brethren. You are fighting against the core doctrine of the church, that of following the LIVING PROPHET.
When the prophet comes out and says we should expend our efforts in advancing a cause and you go out and advocate the exact opposite you are guilty of apostasy.
Why do you not be honest with yourself and admit you are trying to serve two masters. You can not serve both the pro-no consequesnces for homosexual actions lobby or the church. You must make a decision.
Your name may still be on the reccords of the church, but you have began on a course of action in direct contradiction of its teachings and as long as you stay on the course of promoting an agenda that the leaders of the church have directly condemned you are in apostasy and have no right to claim to be an actual member of the church.
If you feel so strongly in favor of same gender marriage why are you still in the church?
You are advocating ideas and actions in direct contradiction to the teachings of the brethren. You are fighting against the core doctrine of the church, that of following the LIVING PROPHET.
When the prophet comes out and says we should expend our efforts in advancing a cause and you go out and advocate the exact opposite you are guilty of apostasy.
Why do you not be honest with yourself and admit you are trying to serve two masters. You can not serve both the pro-no consequesnces for homosexual actions lobby or the church. You must make a decision.
Your name may still be on the reccords of the church, but you have began on a course of action in direct contradiction of its teachings and as long as you stay on the course of promoting an agenda that the leaders of the church have directly condemned you are in apostasy and have no right to claim to be an actual member of the church.
John Lambert | 3:03 p.m. July 17, 2008
To Anonymous,
If my bold and clear speech in favor of the teachings of Thomas S. Monson have driven people to leave the church I have absoultely no apologies.
The Lord said through his servant John "I would that you were hot or cold, but if you are luke warm I will spew you out".
I spent nearly 600 words weighing the issue of whether a person who has had hoimosexual urges in the past should go on a mission, and decided that if they have fully overcome such it would be perfectly OK but that sensitivity to the fact that being on a mission would expose them in new ways to such temptations needs to be taken into account. I was trying to consider what is in the best interest of the young man and pointing out we have to chose the course that will be best for his eternal salvation. As I said, there is no easy answer. What I may not have made clear enough is that this is why not only the prophet but bishops and stake presidents can recieve revelation in their callings as can any other church member for their stewardship.
If my bold and clear speech in favor of the teachings of Thomas S. Monson have driven people to leave the church I have absoultely no apologies.
The Lord said through his servant John "I would that you were hot or cold, but if you are luke warm I will spew you out".
I spent nearly 600 words weighing the issue of whether a person who has had hoimosexual urges in the past should go on a mission, and decided that if they have fully overcome such it would be perfectly OK but that sensitivity to the fact that being on a mission would expose them in new ways to such temptations needs to be taken into account. I was trying to consider what is in the best interest of the young man and pointing out we have to chose the course that will be best for his eternal salvation. As I said, there is no easy answer. What I may not have made clear enough is that this is why not only the prophet but bishops and stake presidents can recieve revelation in their callings as can any other church member for their stewardship.
Anonymous | 3:06 p.m. July 17, 2008
Well, I don't blame the gay community for their bigoted, judgemental, and
look down upon attitudes either - it's all they've got left to scare
most folks into giving into their demands.
They've used so many excuses to gain special preferences: biological (doesn't work into Darwin's original theory), psychiatric (then therapy probably with medication would've cured it), social (not provable as its purely theory), and now - moral.
Prove gay marriage is needed.
They've used so many excuses to gain special preferences: biological (doesn't work into Darwin's original theory), psychiatric (then therapy probably with medication would've cured it), social (not provable as its purely theory), and now - moral.
Prove gay marriage is needed.
John Lambert | 3:10 p.m. July 17, 2008
If my stating what the moral absolutes are has caused people to leave the
church then I make no apologies.
If people have been offended by people reading the First Presidency letter on an issue related to same gender marriage or been offended by a talk on the importance of marriage between a man and a woman I make no apologies.
If someone has stopped coming to church because they heard me say that the people who call homosexuality good and call those who name it as the sexual abomination it is in the sight of the Lord, I make no apologies.
If my calling homosexual behavior an abomination and a sin has caused people to leave the church I make no apologies.
If someone has thought that my statements indicated that people who have homosexual inclinations, urges or desires should be condemned by the church, I apologize. However that was never my meaning and intention, and I try my hardest to make it clear that what I condemn as abomination is homosexual acts.
If my wording has been in precise or unclear I apologize. I urge those who have such desires to seek help from their bishop.
If people have been offended by people reading the First Presidency letter on an issue related to same gender marriage or been offended by a talk on the importance of marriage between a man and a woman I make no apologies.
If someone has stopped coming to church because they heard me say that the people who call homosexuality good and call those who name it as the sexual abomination it is in the sight of the Lord, I make no apologies.
If my calling homosexual behavior an abomination and a sin has caused people to leave the church I make no apologies.
If someone has thought that my statements indicated that people who have homosexual inclinations, urges or desires should be condemned by the church, I apologize. However that was never my meaning and intention, and I try my hardest to make it clear that what I condemn as abomination is homosexual acts.
If my wording has been in precise or unclear I apologize. I urge those who have such desires to seek help from their bishop.
John Lambert | 3:15 p.m. July 17, 2008
I would like to speak on my last comment.
Not only would it be helpful for people to seek spiritual help and guidance from their bishop on this but on many other issues.
Even if you only occasionally feel sexual attraction to those of your gender, and normally feel sexual attraction to those of the other gender, do not be afraid to be open and honest about this with your bishop.
Also, in some cases it might help to seek counsel and aid through LDS Family Services. I have gone to this organization to seek help for other problems and know that the counsel and guidence recieved there is not only from people who are professionally qualified but from people who also allow the spirit to guide their actions.
The combined power of psychological and spiritual help can change a person. It is not easy, and you may never recieve as much change as you desire. You may always have to guard yourself against such urges, but there is hope of change.
The Lord loves you, and if you have faith in him you will recieve all the blessings he intends for you.
Not only would it be helpful for people to seek spiritual help and guidance from their bishop on this but on many other issues.
Even if you only occasionally feel sexual attraction to those of your gender, and normally feel sexual attraction to those of the other gender, do not be afraid to be open and honest about this with your bishop.
Also, in some cases it might help to seek counsel and aid through LDS Family Services. I have gone to this organization to seek help for other problems and know that the counsel and guidence recieved there is not only from people who are professionally qualified but from people who also allow the spirit to guide their actions.
The combined power of psychological and spiritual help can change a person. It is not easy, and you may never recieve as much change as you desire. You may always have to guard yourself against such urges, but there is hope of change.
The Lord loves you, and if you have faith in him you will recieve all the blessings he intends for you.
John Lambert | 3:23 p.m. July 17, 2008
To Rape et. al,
Your statement that we are saying "homosexuals are sin" is wrong. You are trying to fit our words into your world view.
Over and over again we say "homosexual acts are sinful". We say "homosexual thought should be fought against". We are not saying that those who feel homosexual urges etc. are inherently sinful by being alive, we are saying that homosexual acts are not accepted in the eyes of God.
One other point that you do not fully bring up. Since we reject that homosexual orientation is inborn and fixed, the fact that a man molests a boy means that we are dealing with homosexual acts. Even if that man is marriage, has a girlfriend and a baby's momma on the side, and visits brothels on a regular basis, his molesting a boy is a homosexual act and thus he has committed more homosexual related sins than his hypothetical neighbor who has had many urges and desires to have sexual relations with other males, but has always refused to act on them and remained chaste.
Your statement that we are saying "homosexuals are sin" is wrong. You are trying to fit our words into your world view.
Over and over again we say "homosexual acts are sinful". We say "homosexual thought should be fought against". We are not saying that those who feel homosexual urges etc. are inherently sinful by being alive, we are saying that homosexual acts are not accepted in the eyes of God.
One other point that you do not fully bring up. Since we reject that homosexual orientation is inborn and fixed, the fact that a man molests a boy means that we are dealing with homosexual acts. Even if that man is marriage, has a girlfriend and a baby's momma on the side, and visits brothels on a regular basis, his molesting a boy is a homosexual act and thus he has committed more homosexual related sins than his hypothetical neighbor who has had many urges and desires to have sexual relations with other males, but has always refused to act on them and remained chaste.
John Lambert | 3:27 p.m. July 17, 2008
Reading Mike Mayers it sounded so similar to Korihor I almost wondered if he
had plagerized that 1st century BC moral relativist. I highly doubt it, but I
am now wondering how long it will be until one of these modern Korihors follows
his example and kills a Nehor who resists his words with the powerful word of
God.
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