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Readers' forum: Homosexuality ruins lives
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Robert Oh | 1:25 p.m. July 16, 2008
You active Mormons have made covenants to follow you prophets' teachings.
I can't believe how hypocritical some of you are. You ignore your leaders
call to be good examples to others and then cry persecution and intolerance when
people get offended by you and naturally lash out. No wonder people are running
away from you.
"We cannot be arrogant. We cannot be self-righteous. The very situation in which the Lord has placed us requires that we be humble as the beneficiaries of His direction. While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must always be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding."
- Gordon B. Hinckley
"As I have said before, we must not be clannish. We must never adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. We must not be self-righteous. We must be magnanimous, and open, and friendly. We can keep our faith. We can practice our religion. We can cherish our method or worship without being offensive to others. I take this occasion to plead for a spirit of tolerance and neighborliness, of friendship and love toward those of other faiths."
- Gordon B. Hinckley
"We cannot be arrogant. We cannot be self-righteous. The very situation in which the Lord has placed us requires that we be humble as the beneficiaries of His direction. While we cannot agree with others on certain matters, we must never be disagreeable. We must always be friendly, soft-spoken, neighborly, and understanding."
- Gordon B. Hinckley
"As I have said before, we must not be clannish. We must never adopt a holier-than-thou attitude. We must not be self-righteous. We must be magnanimous, and open, and friendly. We can keep our faith. We can practice our religion. We can cherish our method or worship without being offensive to others. I take this occasion to plead for a spirit of tolerance and neighborliness, of friendship and love toward those of other faiths."
- Gordon B. Hinckley
John Lambert | 1:29 p.m. July 16, 2008
To fr1nk,
The only privately owned business I ever worked for in Utah was owned by someone who was not LDS and barely understood anything about the LDS.
Some of my co-workers would say very negative things against the LDS church, but they knew I was LDS and so it was not too bad. Anyway, we were within a mile of BYU so they did not want to offend the customers too much.
The only privately owned business I ever worked for in Utah was owned by someone who was not LDS and barely understood anything about the LDS.
Some of my co-workers would say very negative things against the LDS church, but they knew I was LDS and so it was not too bad. Anyway, we were within a mile of BYU so they did not want to offend the customers too much.
Comments continue below
Roger | 1:34 p.m. July 16, 2008
To "why the hatred?" - 12:41
Why are gays and lesbians so full of hate?
Could it be they have major doubts about their lifestyle?
This is what always happens when people pretend to believe in a lie, or series of lies.
A form of schizophrenia sets in and they slowly become depressed and bitter. Loud and energetic on the outside, inside they are like a walking time bomb.
To "fr1nk to roger" Oh, I see, so now it's my fault that my brother comes home school crying and throwing up because he's continually called "homophobe" at school. It's my fault that schools like West High School have been forced to cow-tow to the ACLU and the gay-straight clubs. It's my fault that gay high school students can target anyone they want to verbal abuse, since they know they can just call the ACLU if anyone complains.
Go ahead and keep burying your head in the sand, and go ahead and keep blaming the victim. YOU KNOW it's happening, and you know you love hearing about it. Typical double talk by the Mormon haters.
Why are gays and lesbians so full of hate?
Could it be they have major doubts about their lifestyle?
This is what always happens when people pretend to believe in a lie, or series of lies.
A form of schizophrenia sets in and they slowly become depressed and bitter. Loud and energetic on the outside, inside they are like a walking time bomb.
To "fr1nk to roger" Oh, I see, so now it's my fault that my brother comes home school crying and throwing up because he's continually called "homophobe" at school. It's my fault that schools like West High School have been forced to cow-tow to the ACLU and the gay-straight clubs. It's my fault that gay high school students can target anyone they want to verbal abuse, since they know they can just call the ACLU if anyone complains.
Go ahead and keep burying your head in the sand, and go ahead and keep blaming the victim. YOU KNOW it's happening, and you know you love hearing about it. Typical double talk by the Mormon haters.
Mike Richards | 1:34 p.m. July 16, 2008
To 12:40, I sent this post about violence at 10:51 a.m. It must have gotten
lost in the shuffle:
"A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.
In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse."
"In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."
"The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships."
"A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.
In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse."
"In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."
"The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships."
Still waiting. | 1:33 p.m. July 16, 2008
I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how allowing gays to be granted
the same state protections & privileges in their consensual, committed
relationships that I enjoy in my heterosexual committed relationship constitutes
a threat to anyone's marriage.
If my marriage isn't jeopardized by Brittany Spears "just kidding" marriage or Zsa Zsa Gabor's nine marriages & divorces, then how on earth will my marriage, or anyone else's, suffer because the two ladies down the block (who've been together for years) run off and get hitched?
Answer me, please. Why the stink about who's allowed to marry? If your church doesn't want to marry gays, it doesn't have to. That's fine. We're talking about civil marriages here.
If my marriage isn't jeopardized by Brittany Spears "just kidding" marriage or Zsa Zsa Gabor's nine marriages & divorces, then how on earth will my marriage, or anyone else's, suffer because the two ladies down the block (who've been together for years) run off and get hitched?
Answer me, please. Why the stink about who's allowed to marry? If your church doesn't want to marry gays, it doesn't have to. That's fine. We're talking about civil marriages here.
John Lambert | 1:34 p.m. July 16, 2008
To jackhp,
Here in Michigan I had to listen to a teacher go on a tirade against the Salt Lake City School board and how it was a Mormon controlled group of homophobes and that was 13 year ago.
Then there was the kid who went around saying that LDS people sacrificed goats and smoked pot. Did anything ever happen to him? No.
Here in Michigan I had to listen to a teacher go on a tirade against the Salt Lake City School board and how it was a Mormon controlled group of homophobes and that was 13 year ago.
Then there was the kid who went around saying that LDS people sacrificed goats and smoked pot. Did anything ever happen to him? No.
Why do some start talking | 1:36 p.m. July 16, 2008
about all the kinds of ridiculous relationships (such as with animals) when we
try and talk about relationships between TWO consenting ADULTS. The rest of the
behaviors are either ridiculous or hurtful to young girls and women (such as in
the case of polygamy). These behaviors are handled with other rules and courts
than with the issue at hand.
Anonymous | 1:36 p.m. July 16, 2008
Never seen so much hatred.
fr1nk to mike | 1:41 p.m. July 16, 2008
You claim "data" and "facts" but produce none. You cut and
paste religious dogma from some website, provide no data, and spout your opinion
as fact. You talk about "studies I posted" but you didnt post studies,
you posted preconceived conclusions to what may or may not have been studies.
Gays will be able to get married all across the USA someday. They will because
it is fair. Get used to it.
Mike Richards | 1:42 p.m. July 16, 2008
To 1:08,
To characterize the Catholic Church as having an agenda against the homosexual community is completely wrong. Their statements towards homosexual individuals are as loving and compassionate as any statements that I have ever read.
I believe that you're simply trying to dismiss the information because you don't agree with it. That's not an honest approach. It would be better to refute any point with which you disagree, and, it would be even better to cite studies that refute any point with which you disagree.
Because I am fully aware of the "knee-jerk" reaction that many have whenever the word "LDS" or the word "Mormon" is posted, I specifically used other data sources hoping that the "knee-jerk" reactionaries would treat other groups with more respect. Apparently that was wishful thinking on my part.
To characterize the Catholic Church as having an agenda against the homosexual community is completely wrong. Their statements towards homosexual individuals are as loving and compassionate as any statements that I have ever read.
I believe that you're simply trying to dismiss the information because you don't agree with it. That's not an honest approach. It would be better to refute any point with which you disagree, and, it would be even better to cite studies that refute any point with which you disagree.
Because I am fully aware of the "knee-jerk" reaction that many have whenever the word "LDS" or the word "Mormon" is posted, I specifically used other data sources hoping that the "knee-jerk" reactionaries would treat other groups with more respect. Apparently that was wishful thinking on my part.
Charles | 1:44 p.m. July 16, 2008
fr1nk...you are the epitome of intolerance. Every one of your posts tells others
that their experiences are invalid or incorrect.
You pompously posts your rhetoric each day on these boards and with extreme judgmentalism.
Acceptance with liberals is a one-way street; you either tow the company line or you are called a bunch of names. See Joe Lieberman for the perfect example.
The pro-homosexual crowd is in such denial about the facts of the behavior that it's wasted breath trying to help them.
Homosexual BEHAVIOR is completely unnatural and immoral. Anatomy 101 folks.
The pro-homosexual crowd likes to discuss off-shoots of the argument instead of the real deal. The issue isn't divorce rates of any religion, it isn't whether my marriage would change or not, it isn't about whether homosexual pay taxes or not, it's not about you being my neighbor or in the carpool.
The issue is homosexual BEHAVIOR is unnatural and immoral. There is a reason why a woman has a vagina and a man has a penis. And homosexual BEHAVIOR doesn't subscribe to the proper use of either of those.
There are restrictions on all licenses issued by government. Homosexual-marriage is NOT a right.
You pompously posts your rhetoric each day on these boards and with extreme judgmentalism.
Acceptance with liberals is a one-way street; you either tow the company line or you are called a bunch of names. See Joe Lieberman for the perfect example.
The pro-homosexual crowd is in such denial about the facts of the behavior that it's wasted breath trying to help them.
Homosexual BEHAVIOR is completely unnatural and immoral. Anatomy 101 folks.
The pro-homosexual crowd likes to discuss off-shoots of the argument instead of the real deal. The issue isn't divorce rates of any religion, it isn't whether my marriage would change or not, it isn't about whether homosexual pay taxes or not, it's not about you being my neighbor or in the carpool.
The issue is homosexual BEHAVIOR is unnatural and immoral. There is a reason why a woman has a vagina and a man has a penis. And homosexual BEHAVIOR doesn't subscribe to the proper use of either of those.
There are restrictions on all licenses issued by government. Homosexual-marriage is NOT a right.
John Lambert | 1:45 p.m. July 16, 2008
To to Mike R.,
There is a much higher rate of abuse of Lesibian woman by their partners than there is of married women by their husbands.
There was one study in which 75% of the women had been married before they became lesbians and the study found a much higher rate of physical abuse of lesbians by there partners than had been experienced by these same women when they were married.
Just because you close your eyes, cover your ears and put your head in the sand to the issue of people in homosexual relationships abusing each other does not mean it will go away. Now who is closing their eyes to the facts?
There is a much higher rate of abuse of Lesibian woman by their partners than there is of married women by their husbands.
There was one study in which 75% of the women had been married before they became lesbians and the study found a much higher rate of physical abuse of lesbians by there partners than had been experienced by these same women when they were married.
Just because you close your eyes, cover your ears and put your head in the sand to the issue of people in homosexual relationships abusing each other does not mean it will go away. Now who is closing their eyes to the facts?
Mike Richards | 1:53 p.m. July 16, 2008
To Jackhp @ 1:25,
If being grouped with homosexuals has offended you, I sincerely apologize. I did not intend to offend nor to cause you discomfort.
If being grouped with homosexuals has offended you, I sincerely apologize. I did not intend to offend nor to cause you discomfort.
to still waiting.... | 1:53 p.m. July 16, 2008
are you promoting polygamy the same way you are homosexual marriage?
are you promoting to allow brothers, sisters, cousins to marry?
are you promoting a free-for-all in marriage? What about 2 guys and a gal? What about 2 gals and a guy?
Can you please tell us what is wrong with any of those combinations for marriage?
are you promoting to allow brothers, sisters, cousins to marry?
are you promoting a free-for-all in marriage? What about 2 guys and a gal? What about 2 gals and a guy?
Can you please tell us what is wrong with any of those combinations for marriage?
John Lambert | 1:58 p.m. July 16, 2008
To Robert Oh,
You may be right that some people are a bit too willing to respond in kind. However, it is hard when people call you "bigoted" and "hateful" for stating your religous position.
Beyond that, this specific discussion has been free from some of the hurtful and means spirited comments that some misguided Church members or other defenders of the Utah status quo on occasion indulge in.
One reason that Elder Ballard has had to urge us to join the conversation is because it is hard when speaking makes you labeled a bigot. We have in the past tried to shy away from such debates. There is a right way and a wrong way to present your issues, however when you are called a liar because you speak the truth it makes outrage.
I am totally behind Rodger's outrage. If a school were to sponsor a "Mormon-non-Mormon alliance club" and then people who did not join were mocked as anti-Mormons what do you think would happen? I can gaurantee the ACLU would be pushing full speed ahead with a law suit.
You may be right that some people are a bit too willing to respond in kind. However, it is hard when people call you "bigoted" and "hateful" for stating your religous position.
Beyond that, this specific discussion has been free from some of the hurtful and means spirited comments that some misguided Church members or other defenders of the Utah status quo on occasion indulge in.
One reason that Elder Ballard has had to urge us to join the conversation is because it is hard when speaking makes you labeled a bigot. We have in the past tried to shy away from such debates. There is a right way and a wrong way to present your issues, however when you are called a liar because you speak the truth it makes outrage.
I am totally behind Rodger's outrage. If a school were to sponsor a "Mormon-non-Mormon alliance club" and then people who did not join were mocked as anti-Mormons what do you think would happen? I can gaurantee the ACLU would be pushing full speed ahead with a law suit.
John Lambert | 2:04 p.m. July 16, 2008
To to still waiting,
I can tell you what is wrong with all those. They are not acceptable to society and are nearly universaly condemned by religious leaders.
Does this argument hold up under the reasoning and srcutiny of the California Supreme Court. I do not think so, I think if they took their logic to its logical conclusion they would have to legalize a lot more. However, this is the main problem. Their judicial fiats are not based on logic, reason or what the law says, but on appeasing the liberal and progressive element and being in line with the current liber-political-scientific alliance.
I can tell you what is wrong with all those. They are not acceptable to society and are nearly universaly condemned by religious leaders.
Does this argument hold up under the reasoning and srcutiny of the California Supreme Court. I do not think so, I think if they took their logic to its logical conclusion they would have to legalize a lot more. However, this is the main problem. Their judicial fiats are not based on logic, reason or what the law says, but on appeasing the liberal and progressive element and being in line with the current liber-political-scientific alliance.
RE: to still waiting | 2:06 p.m. July 16, 2008
I'm not a polygamist, so why would I promote THEIR lifestyle choices?
I don't have any siblings, so how can I marry one? If those who want to marry a sibling feel it's important enough, let them organize and promote it. I'm not doing the work for them.
The same applies to the tri pod marriage issue. If they want it, they can get off their collective bottoms and make change happen.
But you missed the Those who want to marry their pets group as well as those who want to marry vampire lesbians of Sodom. But they too need to promote their own causes.
IF after gay marriage laws are passed, I might join in their fights, just to lend support but until then, let them put up or shut up for what they want.
I don't have any siblings, so how can I marry one? If those who want to marry a sibling feel it's important enough, let them organize and promote it. I'm not doing the work for them.
The same applies to the tri pod marriage issue. If they want it, they can get off their collective bottoms and make change happen.
But you missed the Those who want to marry their pets group as well as those who want to marry vampire lesbians of Sodom. But they too need to promote their own causes.
IF after gay marriage laws are passed, I might join in their fights, just to lend support but until then, let them put up or shut up for what they want.
jackhp | 2:10 p.m. July 16, 2008
John Lambert 1:34pm,
So? What's your point? Did I defend such actions?
So? What's your point? Did I defend such actions?
jackhp | 2:12 p.m. July 16, 2008
Mike,
Have you EVER raised your voice your wife (assuming you're married)? If so, your wife has been the victim of verbal agression. If not, then I would venture to say that your wife is in the extreme minority, whether gay or straight.
Have you EVER raised your voice your wife (assuming you're married)? If so, your wife has been the victim of verbal agression. If not, then I would venture to say that your wife is in the extreme minority, whether gay or straight.
@ John Lambert | 2:14 p.m. July 16, 2008
Why not start a mormon/non-mormon group? I wouldn't object, I think it
could be a useful tool for people to gain a greater understanding and heaven
forbid a greater respect of the other persons perceptions and experiences. The
same reasons I support gay/straight alliances, so that there can be an open but
structured forum to learn. And if the ACLU put up a stink, I would be by your
side speaking out against them.
And I WAS mocked for not being mormon. I just dealt with it and moved on. I was also beaten up several times for being gay, by active mormons and non-mormons. Well.....looks like I should just hate everyone.
Bottom line folks, kids in school will find some thing to make fun of you about. Even if you just wear glasses, you'll get called "four eyes". All you can do is ignore it and move on and wait for the day when it all comes back at them.
And I WAS mocked for not being mormon. I just dealt with it and moved on. I was also beaten up several times for being gay, by active mormons and non-mormons. Well.....looks like I should just hate everyone.
Bottom line folks, kids in school will find some thing to make fun of you about. Even if you just wear glasses, you'll get called "four eyes". All you can do is ignore it and move on and wait for the day when it all comes back at them.
JLL | 2:15 p.m. July 16, 2008
Will you please provide a reference where gay marriage and other popular social
ideas of the moment are inalienable rights? According to the Bill Of Rights,
our rights include freedom of speech, press & religion, the right to bear
arms, rights of assembly and rights to petition etc. After fine tooth combing
it again, I have yet to find that exact reference.
fr1nk to charles | 2:15 p.m. July 16, 2008
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.
"Homosexual BEHAVIOR is completely unnatural and immoral" YOUR MORALS not mine, what part of that dont you understand. Your morals that you get from your religion are not universal. If I created a "church" and passed a law to not allow Mormons to marry, you would be livid. You would (and shouldnt) stand for it. The gay people will not stand for it anymore. And I stand for FREEDOM. Freedom for gays to marry. Freedom for churches to exclude anyone they want. Freedom for you to spout nonsense. All the same. Gay marriage will not effect you one iota. It will however give me another brother in law. Perhaps my tolerance for stupidity is waining.
"Homosexual BEHAVIOR is completely unnatural and immoral" YOUR MORALS not mine, what part of that dont you understand. Your morals that you get from your religion are not universal. If I created a "church" and passed a law to not allow Mormons to marry, you would be livid. You would (and shouldnt) stand for it. The gay people will not stand for it anymore. And I stand for FREEDOM. Freedom for gays to marry. Freedom for churches to exclude anyone they want. Freedom for you to spout nonsense. All the same. Gay marriage will not effect you one iota. It will however give me another brother in law. Perhaps my tolerance for stupidity is waining.
jackhp | 2:16 p.m. July 16, 2008
LOL, Mike, no offense, because I don't think it's offensive to be gay.
I do however think it's telling that you would make such an assumption . .
.
to 2:06pm | 2:19 p.m. July 16, 2008
Thanks for proving the point of everyone who is opposed to homosexual marriage.
You can't make a cogent argument against any one of those scenarios so you resort to your deflections so as to not keep the focus on the call for "equality"...
Again, it's only "equality" in the eye of the homosexual if the homosexual gets "theirs". Let the others fend for themselves....and yet it's the call for "equality for all" that comes from those with the perverted and unnatural behavior....
I guess that's not really what it's all about now, is it....
You can't make a cogent argument against any one of those scenarios so you resort to your deflections so as to not keep the focus on the call for "equality"...
Again, it's only "equality" in the eye of the homosexual if the homosexual gets "theirs". Let the others fend for themselves....and yet it's the call for "equality for all" that comes from those with the perverted and unnatural behavior....
I guess that's not really what it's all about now, is it....
I wish | 2:22 p.m. July 16, 2008
I wish one of the Gods would give me some help.
I wish he would tell me why I have to wear funny hats, trinkets, robes, pay money to people to insure my place in the afterlife.
I wish a God would come down here and tell us all why all the other Gods are not real, but he/she is.
Then give us proof.
I wish a God would tell me to my face why I should single out people and groups of people to hate.
I really wish that the true all Loving God would do those things, without sending messages to certain people to give to the rest of us.
I wish he would tell me why I have to wear funny hats, trinkets, robes, pay money to people to insure my place in the afterlife.
I wish a God would come down here and tell us all why all the other Gods are not real, but he/she is.
Then give us proof.
I wish a God would tell me to my face why I should single out people and groups of people to hate.
I really wish that the true all Loving God would do those things, without sending messages to certain people to give to the rest of us.
How come? | 2:25 p.m. July 16, 2008
A rich, full life living in sin??? How can that be?
Why do people who are wicked, call others hateful, when they call them on the carpet for their perverted behavior?
Mike Richards | 2:26 p.m. July 16, 2008
fr1nk 2:15,
If you created a church, it would be your church. You could make any rules that you wished. Since "Mormons" would not be members of your church, your desire to forbid Mormons to marry would have no effect on Mormons. If you forbade members of your church to marry Mormons, then that would be an issue between you and your members, not between you and Mormons.
So, go ahead, create your own church. Forbid whatever pleases you. Permit whatever pleases you. If it's your church, you own the doctrines and you are responsible for the results.
If you created a church, it would be your church. You could make any rules that you wished. Since "Mormons" would not be members of your church, your desire to forbid Mormons to marry would have no effect on Mormons. If you forbade members of your church to marry Mormons, then that would be an issue between you and your members, not between you and Mormons.
So, go ahead, create your own church. Forbid whatever pleases you. Permit whatever pleases you. If it's your church, you own the doctrines and you are responsible for the results.
re Mike Richards | 2:27 p.m. July 16, 2008
I think many of us are curious to know the source of your "facts"
about gay people that you quote. Could you please provide it? Thanks in
advance.
not ruined, thanks | 2:30 p.m. July 16, 2008
It is not homosexuality that ruins lives; it is hateful homophobia that breaks
up families by making parents ashamed of their children.
I am gay and therefore inactive but still consider myself culturally Mormon. My life is not ruined. It took a while, but I finally accepted myself and waited patiently until my family came around. I will also wait until the Church comes around, as it will, as it must, just like on the issue of blacks in the priesthood.
I can assure you that my sexuality is not a choice. I am a rational person so I did not choose to be bullied all through high school, I did not choose to be estranged from my father until his death, I did not choose to communicate with my mother only in secret so my dad wouldn't find out, I did not choose to wait 20 years until my older brother would finally speak to me.
LDS gay-bashers take note:
You know not what you are doing. Somewhere in Utah a young person is being driven to desperation by the hateful comments coming from supposedly loving LDS. Stop it.
I am gay and therefore inactive but still consider myself culturally Mormon. My life is not ruined. It took a while, but I finally accepted myself and waited patiently until my family came around. I will also wait until the Church comes around, as it will, as it must, just like on the issue of blacks in the priesthood.
I can assure you that my sexuality is not a choice. I am a rational person so I did not choose to be bullied all through high school, I did not choose to be estranged from my father until his death, I did not choose to communicate with my mother only in secret so my dad wouldn't find out, I did not choose to wait 20 years until my older brother would finally speak to me.
LDS gay-bashers take note:
You know not what you are doing. Somewhere in Utah a young person is being driven to desperation by the hateful comments coming from supposedly loving LDS. Stop it.
Mike Richards | 2:31 p.m. July 16, 2008
To I Wish at 2:22,
You don't really wish those things do you?
Surely you've read the words of the Son of God when he said, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, . . . "
You don't really wish those things do you?
Surely you've read the words of the Son of God when he said, "A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, . . . "
@ to 2:06 | 2:33 p.m. July 16, 2008
Okay, I'll try it again.
The polygamists are fighting for their rights,and polygamy is still practiced and taught by the LDS church. But why would I as a gay man promote a lifestlye of multiple partner marriage when I legally can't marry a single man? I need to get to a point of equality for myself first. you want to call it selfish fine. I think your selfish for denying me my rights to marry.
Next the issue of siblings marrying has hazards on a genetic level should the couple choose to have children. The problems with genetics causing an an unfair risk of birth defects to the children would show this to be wrong. But again, they need to step up and fight their own fight as well.
And as far as a harem situation the same rules apply. If that makes me selfish that I want basic equality then fine. I'm selfish. But also, how many times have these groups come foreward? Am I supposed to go out there and recruit people to fight for their rights? Maybe if they showed some interest in fighting for their rights I would back them.
The polygamists are fighting for their rights,and polygamy is still practiced and taught by the LDS church. But why would I as a gay man promote a lifestlye of multiple partner marriage when I legally can't marry a single man? I need to get to a point of equality for myself first. you want to call it selfish fine. I think your selfish for denying me my rights to marry.
Next the issue of siblings marrying has hazards on a genetic level should the couple choose to have children. The problems with genetics causing an an unfair risk of birth defects to the children would show this to be wrong. But again, they need to step up and fight their own fight as well.
And as far as a harem situation the same rules apply. If that makes me selfish that I want basic equality then fine. I'm selfish. But also, how many times have these groups come foreward? Am I supposed to go out there and recruit people to fight for their rights? Maybe if they showed some interest in fighting for their rights I would back them.
To Mike Richards | 2:34 p.m. July 16, 2008
First, why would the catholic or any other church need to post anything on a
website about homosexuals, especially the types of things you quoted in you
posts, if they did not have an agenda specifically to cast a negative light on
homosexuals. And no one dismissed your information - but you need to realize
that just because someone wrote it down does not mean that it is true or
accurate. I find it interesting that churches seem to have a real aversion to
homosexuals yet have so much information about homosexuals and their
relationships.
fr1nk to mike | 2:39 p.m. July 16, 2008
If I made a LAW that forbid Mormons to marry. I am pointing out why we dont just
let churches make laws (and I think you know it).
@ How come | 2:42 p.m. July 16, 2008
Aren't you living in some type of sin? Is your life completely free of
sin?? I doubt it. Does that mean you are never happy and content? Does joy in
life only come with perfection?
I am happy and living as great life despite the fact that you might percieve my lifestyle as sinful.
Maybe if you take that beam out of your eye, you could see that.
And why do people call others wicked for calling them out about their hypocrisy, igorance, bigotry and hate?
Fine, I'm a wicked sinner. I'm not perfect, never will be and won't claim to be. But aren't I the type of person Jesus broke bread with? Would He say the things many on this site who claim to know him would say? Then turn around and say they knew Him?
Even a sinner has soul.
I am happy and living as great life despite the fact that you might percieve my lifestyle as sinful.
Maybe if you take that beam out of your eye, you could see that.
And why do people call others wicked for calling them out about their hypocrisy, igorance, bigotry and hate?
Fine, I'm a wicked sinner. I'm not perfect, never will be and won't claim to be. But aren't I the type of person Jesus broke bread with? Would He say the things many on this site who claim to know him would say? Then turn around and say they knew Him?
Even a sinner has soul.
Mike 2:31 | 2:43 p.m. July 16, 2008
Surely you have read "Love thy neighbor as thyself" or "Let he
who is without sin cast the first stone..."
Funny thing though, I can't find ANYTHING the Son of God said about hating homosexuals, or about homosexuality at all.
Funny thing though, I can't find ANYTHING the Son of God said about hating homosexuals, or about homosexuality at all.
Charles | 2:46 p.m. July 16, 2008
I wish....said, "I wish a God would tell me to my face why I should single
out people and groups of people to hate."
I'm wondering why you don't live up to your own expectations of others? (see your 2nd I wish)
I'm wondering why you don't open you heart to God and let Him lead your life?
I'm wondering why you need a face-to-face to know that God is when just the fact that you are breathing is proof that God exists.
I'm wondering why people who are opposed to God/religions/faith are so intolerant of those who subscribe?
I'm wondering why you have to be a "doubting Thomas" to come unto Christ?
There is but 1 God and He organized this earth for you and me. We are on this earth to be tested; to obey His commandments. He gives us prophets to follow instead of reigning on this earth personally. You have a conscience so you know right from wrong. you get to choose your choice but not the consequence.
I'm wondering when you will allow the Spirit to touch your heart so that you will know that He is....until then.
I'm wondering why you don't live up to your own expectations of others? (see your 2nd I wish)
I'm wondering why you don't open you heart to God and let Him lead your life?
I'm wondering why you need a face-to-face to know that God is when just the fact that you are breathing is proof that God exists.
I'm wondering why people who are opposed to God/religions/faith are so intolerant of those who subscribe?
I'm wondering why you have to be a "doubting Thomas" to come unto Christ?
There is but 1 God and He organized this earth for you and me. We are on this earth to be tested; to obey His commandments. He gives us prophets to follow instead of reigning on this earth personally. You have a conscience so you know right from wrong. you get to choose your choice but not the consequence.
I'm wondering when you will allow the Spirit to touch your heart so that you will know that He is....until then.
par | 2:48 p.m. July 16, 2008
This is not the first and only time Mike Richards has maligned Catholics.
In Utah, this is par for the course.
In Utah, this is par for the course.
To not ruined, thanks | 2:49 p.m. July 16, 2008
LDS bashers take note:
You know not what you are doing. Somewhere in Utah scores of people being driven to desperation by the hateful comments coming from supposedly loving groups, who on the one hand demand tolerance and acceptance, while on the other hand, will never hesitate to call LDS Church members "homophobes" "bigots" "brain-washed theo-nazis" "cultists" "thugs" "pigs" and many other words which can't be said here.
We know you have no plans to "Stop it" since in your view, your hatred and bigotry is justified.
You know not what you are doing. Somewhere in Utah scores of people being driven to desperation by the hateful comments coming from supposedly loving groups, who on the one hand demand tolerance and acceptance, while on the other hand, will never hesitate to call LDS Church members "homophobes" "bigots" "brain-washed theo-nazis" "cultists" "thugs" "pigs" and many other words which can't be said here.
We know you have no plans to "Stop it" since in your view, your hatred and bigotry is justified.
To Mike | 2:47 p.m. July 16, 2008
I don't hold much credence to a book written over 2000 years ago by
uneducated dirt farmers.
I certainly would not raise my family to believe all of those things written so long ago. They would not want me to stone them, or my wife for not doing what they were told.
Christ taught many good and great things, good enough to make a mark on the world like no other.
Its the thousands of changes done to his original words that spook me. Humans can be a nasty bunch!
I certainly would not raise my family to believe all of those things written so long ago. They would not want me to stone them, or my wife for not doing what they were told.
Christ taught many good and great things, good enough to make a mark on the world like no other.
Its the thousands of changes done to his original words that spook me. Humans can be a nasty bunch!
jackhp | 2:52 p.m. July 16, 2008
Mike @ 2:26pm,
Reading comprehension and logic are not your strong suits, are they?
fr1nk's statement was about creating a church that would then help to pass a law forbidding LDS people from marrying. The argument you gave in response is exactly what we're trying to tell LDS people . . . MYOB and keep YOUR religion's "morals" out of secular law.
Legalizing gay marriage will not affect LDS marriage whatsoever.
Reading comprehension and logic are not your strong suits, are they?
fr1nk's statement was about creating a church that would then help to pass a law forbidding LDS people from marrying. The argument you gave in response is exactly what we're trying to tell LDS people . . . MYOB and keep YOUR religion's "morals" out of secular law.
Legalizing gay marriage will not affect LDS marriage whatsoever.
Mike Richards | 2:52 p.m. July 16, 2008
To 2:27,
As explained at the bottom of my 9:41 post, I did a Google search using the words "homosexuality negative aspects". Everything that I've quoted came from sites that Google matched with the search criteria.
Be prepared to spend some time reading. There are more than 3,000,000 sites that Google listed as being related to "homosexuality negative aspects". (I only read data from about the first 150 sites or so.)
As explained at the bottom of my 9:41 post, I did a Google search using the words "homosexuality negative aspects". Everything that I've quoted came from sites that Google matched with the search criteria.
Be prepared to spend some time reading. There are more than 3,000,000 sites that Google listed as being related to "homosexuality negative aspects". (I only read data from about the first 150 sites or so.)
To Mike Richards 2:26 | 2:54 p.m. July 16, 2008
Mr. Richards, you have finally hit the nail on the head. fr1nk suggested that
if he created a church and passed laws that forbid your marriage because you are
mormon then you would be upset. You state "Since "Mormons" would
not be members of your church your desire to forbid Mormons to marry would have
no effect on Mormons". But that is exactly what you and others like you
want to do to homosexuals - pass laws and make them follow your religious
doctrine.
Anonymous | 3:03 p.m. July 16, 2008
Why pander to a person who obviously never got his normal attention needs met as
a child (Mike Richards)?
He's a self-proclaimed conservative and all conservatives like to do is fight.
He's a self-proclaimed conservative and all conservatives like to do is fight.
Charles | 3:01 p.m. July 16, 2008
to 2:33...it is selfishness on your part, IMO. If you are truly for equality in
marriage then you fight the fight for everyone; not just your cause. The
"I'll help you after I get mine" philosophy is what makes your
cause hypocritical.
And BTW, you have no "right" to marriage. If you have a "right" then so do all of the scenarios and it would be a one-size fits all cause. Governments put restrictions on many things where people feel they have a right.
Can anyone go get a driver's license?
Government even places some restrictions on God-given rights enumerated in the 1st amendment; guns, speech.
I understand your need to try to legitimize your behavior. However, it is incumbent upon society to stand up when wrong behavior is trying to present itself as correct behavior.
We call lying perjury. We call stealing, murdering (except abortion which we call choice), coveting and other bad behaviors wrong. We don't tolerate them.
God, nor society, has any obligation to accept homosexual behavior as normal, correct, valid, acceptable or anything like it.
God created man and woman and commanded them to populate the earth. It's a really easy eternal principle to understand.
And BTW, you have no "right" to marriage. If you have a "right" then so do all of the scenarios and it would be a one-size fits all cause. Governments put restrictions on many things where people feel they have a right.
Can anyone go get a driver's license?
Government even places some restrictions on God-given rights enumerated in the 1st amendment; guns, speech.
I understand your need to try to legitimize your behavior. However, it is incumbent upon society to stand up when wrong behavior is trying to present itself as correct behavior.
We call lying perjury. We call stealing, murdering (except abortion which we call choice), coveting and other bad behaviors wrong. We don't tolerate them.
God, nor society, has any obligation to accept homosexual behavior as normal, correct, valid, acceptable or anything like it.
God created man and woman and commanded them to populate the earth. It's a really easy eternal principle to understand.
Mike Richards | 3:03 p.m. July 16, 2008
To fr1nk 2:39,
You're talking about two separate issues. I believe that I answered the question that you asked: "If I created a "church" and passed a law to not allow Mormons to marry, you would be livid."
As a leader of your own church, you could do whatever you wanted within your church but you would have zero authority or stewardship over anyone who was not a member of your church.
You surely know that as a legislator that you could never pass a law that targeted any religion:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" Amendment 1 of the U.S. Constitution
I apologize if my earlier response assumed facts not in evidence.
You're talking about two separate issues. I believe that I answered the question that you asked: "If I created a "church" and passed a law to not allow Mormons to marry, you would be livid."
As a leader of your own church, you could do whatever you wanted within your church but you would have zero authority or stewardship over anyone who was not a member of your church.
You surely know that as a legislator that you could never pass a law that targeted any religion:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" Amendment 1 of the U.S. Constitution
I apologize if my earlier response assumed facts not in evidence.
to Mike Richards | 3:05 p.m. July 16, 2008
To simply say you "googled it" does not answer the question. Which
source? Or more precisely, which website? Thanks in advance.
To Charles | 3:04 p.m. July 16, 2008
People who repeat scripture and verse again and again only prove that they are
incapable of any original thoughts of their own.
My God does not want us to single out anybody for ridicule, his son said that right here on earth did he not?
My God does not want us to single out anybody for ridicule, his son said that right here on earth did he not?
Charles | 3:09 p.m. July 16, 2008
to 2:43...please open your Bible my friend. There are many passages that speak
of the wickedness of homosexual behavior. If you don't know where Christ
has said it, then you haven't even tried to find it.
Numerous places....open the good book and read it sometime...until then, your lack of knowledge is showing through openly.
to 2:54...ALL laws are based on someone's sense of morality. You can't name one or find one that isn't. So please dispense with the "keep religion out of it" argument as it holds no water whatsoever.
I'll ask you to do the same; keep your sense of morality out of the public realm. Can you do it?
finally, to jackhp...there really isn't such a thing as secular law so I don't know why you are promoting it. BTW, there is no law anywhere that says religious people all have to be quiet and just sit on our hands while the "enlightened, free-thinkers" of our time try to push their agenda on society and destroy it.
Nice try though...
Numerous places....open the good book and read it sometime...until then, your lack of knowledge is showing through openly.
to 2:54...ALL laws are based on someone's sense of morality. You can't name one or find one that isn't. So please dispense with the "keep religion out of it" argument as it holds no water whatsoever.
I'll ask you to do the same; keep your sense of morality out of the public realm. Can you do it?
finally, to jackhp...there really isn't such a thing as secular law so I don't know why you are promoting it. BTW, there is no law anywhere that says religious people all have to be quiet and just sit on our hands while the "enlightened, free-thinkers" of our time try to push their agenda on society and destroy it.
Nice try though...
SAVE IT ! | 3:10 p.m. July 16, 2008
jackhp - 2:52 said, "Legalizing gay marriage will not affect LDS marriage
whatsoever."
You forgot to say "wink, wink" after that.
Once gay marriage is legal, everyone knows gays will demand more. The next step will be to demand church organizations to hire gays and lesbians as employees, even if that church opposes the gay lifestyle. Any church that does not comply will face legal actions.
Sure I know, gays and lesbians say, "We won't force churches to marry gays and lesbians." What they really mean is, "We won't force churches to marry gays and lesbians, until it is politically acceptable to do so."
One more thing, the FLDS raid in Texas will be a drop in the bucket compared to what pro-gay activists and social workers have in mind for LDS, Catholic and Baptist families in the near future. Remember the sex abuse witch hunts back in the 1980's. The sequel is already being planned out.
GO AHEAD. Call me "homophobic" "bigoted" "close-minded" all you want. But I've spoken the TRUTH and gay supporters know it!
You forgot to say "wink, wink" after that.
Once gay marriage is legal, everyone knows gays will demand more. The next step will be to demand church organizations to hire gays and lesbians as employees, even if that church opposes the gay lifestyle. Any church that does not comply will face legal actions.
Sure I know, gays and lesbians say, "We won't force churches to marry gays and lesbians." What they really mean is, "We won't force churches to marry gays and lesbians, until it is politically acceptable to do so."
One more thing, the FLDS raid in Texas will be a drop in the bucket compared to what pro-gay activists and social workers have in mind for LDS, Catholic and Baptist families in the near future. Remember the sex abuse witch hunts back in the 1980's. The sequel is already being planned out.
GO AHEAD. Call me "homophobic" "bigoted" "close-minded" all you want. But I've spoken the TRUTH and gay supporters know it!
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To make your observations even more apt, few studies have actually found any link between being LDS and being depressed. Instead they have always found given levels in Utah. People than assume Utah=LDS without analysing the date to determine what percentage of the sample in Utah was LDS.
At the same time they assume not Utah=Not LDS, while in fact Idaho is 25% LDS so that theory falls apart as well.
Actual statistics show that homosexual relationships are much more likely than marriages to involve abuse. So this is another issue these studies do not deal with.
Another issue that people do not always deal with is the complexity of counting suicides. If we have Joe die in a rash into a tree going 90 miles per hour down a residential street when he is drunk is it called a suicide. No, it is called an accidental death. Is it at least possible that this was a pre-meditated plan to kill himself, yes.