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Readers' forum: Homosexuality ruins lives
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Must be ruining HIS life | 10:22 a.m. July 16, 2008
Bridger Talbot tells us "homosexuality ruins lives."
It's obvious that gay people are ruining HIS.
He and his neocon ilk just can't stop obsessing about things that are really none of their [bleep] business!
It's obvious that gay people are ruining HIS.
He and his neocon ilk just can't stop obsessing about things that are really none of their [bleep] business!
Anonymous | 10:26 a.m. July 16, 2008
"But unfortunately, marriage is not a right guaranteed by the
government."
Oh, but it is. It is a right granted by the states in our country and has been encoded into law in IRS legislation, legal legislation (no spouse needs to testify against their spouse) and other parts of our laws. LAWS MAKE PRIVILEGES AND RIGHTS.
The 14th amendment state that, if a state grants a right to a citizen, no other state can deny that right (equal protection clause). and ..."No State shall make or enforce any law whick shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States."
Marriage licenses are granted by governments. It is a right. Sorry.
Oh, but it is. It is a right granted by the states in our country and has been encoded into law in IRS legislation, legal legislation (no spouse needs to testify against their spouse) and other parts of our laws. LAWS MAKE PRIVILEGES AND RIGHTS.
The 14th amendment state that, if a state grants a right to a citizen, no other state can deny that right (equal protection clause). and ..."No State shall make or enforce any law whick shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States."
Marriage licenses are granted by governments. It is a right. Sorry.
Comments continue below
Mike Richards | 10:30 a.m. July 16, 2008
Here's an excerpt from the Coptic Orthodox Church:
"Homosexuality is a learned behavior. Homosexuals are made and not born. They develop homosexuality by thinking positively of homosexual practices. Participating in such practices provides pleasure and consequently leads to more positive thoughts toward homosexuals.
As his or her thoughts and activities become more same sex oriented, he or she tend to think negatively about the opposite sex, so, a predisposition toward homosexuality itself does not implement it. Homosexuality requires an initial experience followed by same sex thought patterns and more experience."
From another web site with an article written by Alan P. Medinger :
"A major study by the Kinsey Institute revealed that 78% of male homo- sexual "affairs" (relationships entered into with an intent of commitment) lasted less than three years. Only 12% lasted five years or longer. Certainly, this shows a pattern of broken relationships that must be painful for many."
From that same web site:
"Seventy percent said they believed that the homosexuals' problems were due more to personal conflicts than to social stigmatization."
"Homosexuality is a learned behavior. Homosexuals are made and not born. They develop homosexuality by thinking positively of homosexual practices. Participating in such practices provides pleasure and consequently leads to more positive thoughts toward homosexuals.
As his or her thoughts and activities become more same sex oriented, he or she tend to think negatively about the opposite sex, so, a predisposition toward homosexuality itself does not implement it. Homosexuality requires an initial experience followed by same sex thought patterns and more experience."
From another web site with an article written by Alan P. Medinger :
"A major study by the Kinsey Institute revealed that 78% of male homo- sexual "affairs" (relationships entered into with an intent of commitment) lasted less than three years. Only 12% lasted five years or longer. Certainly, this shows a pattern of broken relationships that must be painful for many."
From that same web site:
"Seventy percent said they believed that the homosexuals' problems were due more to personal conflicts than to social stigmatization."
Anonymous | 10:34 a.m. July 16, 2008
Bridger thank you for being frank about the true feelings Mormons have for their
gay brothers and sisters.
@ RE:so... | 10:39 a.m. July 16, 2008
Netherlands legalized gay marriage in 2001, Belgium in 2003, Norway in 1993,
South Africa in 2006, Spain in 2005, and Denmark has recognized Civil Unions
since 1989.
You have a broad spectrum of data to choose from with these countries, where you can make a short, mid and longer term analysis to gather the info of mariage numbers, divorce rates, and any other info you might need. But the last time I looked at a globe, these countries were still around, still prospering. There are still heterosexual marriages taking place in these countries, I mean NONE of them have become 100% gay since allowing gay marriage now have they?
And even if you are a bigot, so what? I can tell it bother you when someone labels you. The same way it does me, a homosexual. All I ask is that you keep your religion and beliefs out of my life, and I'll try to do the same for you. Fair enough?
And I'm still waiting for someone to give me SOME type of evidence about the negative affects of gay marriage....Anyone....anyone....
You have a broad spectrum of data to choose from with these countries, where you can make a short, mid and longer term analysis to gather the info of mariage numbers, divorce rates, and any other info you might need. But the last time I looked at a globe, these countries were still around, still prospering. There are still heterosexual marriages taking place in these countries, I mean NONE of them have become 100% gay since allowing gay marriage now have they?
And even if you are a bigot, so what? I can tell it bother you when someone labels you. The same way it does me, a homosexual. All I ask is that you keep your religion and beliefs out of my life, and I'll try to do the same for you. Fair enough?
And I'm still waiting for someone to give me SOME type of evidence about the negative affects of gay marriage....Anyone....anyone....
jackhp | 10:39 a.m. July 16, 2008
Mike . . . whoosh!
jce | 10:40 a.m. July 16, 2008
OK everybody follow the letter of the law, the following are equal to the
abomination of same sex attractions,The bible does not mention homosexuality
as the word did not exist when the bible was written for all those who beleive
the Bible you mus do the following: Kill you teenage boys who are unruly,
teenage girls who are unruly are to be sold into prostitution, Red Lobster
restaurents are evil, they serve shell fish, Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5),
and that includes Halloween costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little
girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown any
cotton polyester blend will get you sent to Hell and the list goes on.
People, please grow up
People, please grow up
Mike Richards | 10:51 a.m. July 16, 2008
I've come across some information about violence among homosexual
partners:
"A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.
In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse."
"In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."
"The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships."
"A study in the Journal of Interpersonal Violence examined conflict and violence in lesbian relationships. The researchers found that 90 percent of the lesbians surveyed had been recipients of one or more acts of verbal aggression from their intimate partners during the year prior to this study, with 31 percent reporting one or more incidents of physical abuse.
In a survey of 1,099 lesbians, the Journal of Social Service Research found that "slightly more than half of the [lesbians] reported that they had been abused by a female lover/partner. The most frequently indicated forms of abuse were verbal/emotional/psychological abuse and combined physical-psychological abuse."
"In their book Men Who Beat the Men Who Love Them: Battered Gay Men and Domestic Violence,D. Island and P. Letellier report that "the incidence of domestic violence among gay men is nearly double that in the heterosexual population."
"The Bureau of Justice Statistics (U.S. Department of Justice) reports that married women in traditional families experience the lowest rate of violence compared with women in other types of relationships."
fr1nk to mike | 10:55 a.m. July 16, 2008
I dont care what ANY religion has to say about anything. So you can stop cutting
and pasting their dogma. I dont believe in religion. I think religion is a man
made invention. I am sure you can find a Muslim website that says killing
infidels (gays included) will get you some number of virgins in the afterlife.
Will you then run out and start killing infidels? No you wont because you dont
believe in THEIR religion. Get it? That is why we dont write our religions into
law. It kills freedom.
RE: Mike Richards | 10:55 a.m. July 16, 2008
So much flawed logic in your info.
So question one: Who taught YOU how to be straight and narrow minded? Did acting out as a heterosexual make you more straight? I'd love to know how. Is that why you are so against homosexuality? I'm gay, can't remember the person who taught me how to be gay, but I don't hate heterosexuals, so that point is illogical and comes across as you projecting your feelings at the gay community.
Next, you quote the duration of gay relationships, but what are the stats for hetero's? How long is the average straight relationship outside of marriage and also in? With a divorce rate around 50%, I wouldn't think that the heterosexuals have any room to say anything about gay relationships and how long they last. But appearantly those break ups aren't painful, hurtful of have any other negative problems. That's convenient.
Of those 70% who voiced an opinion on homosexual problems, how many were gay? Can we ask a bunch of gays to comment on the issues heterosexuals face and count it as fact not speculation by those who haven't got a clue??
Try again.
Again, your data, logic, views are flawed.
So question one: Who taught YOU how to be straight and narrow minded? Did acting out as a heterosexual make you more straight? I'd love to know how. Is that why you are so against homosexuality? I'm gay, can't remember the person who taught me how to be gay, but I don't hate heterosexuals, so that point is illogical and comes across as you projecting your feelings at the gay community.
Next, you quote the duration of gay relationships, but what are the stats for hetero's? How long is the average straight relationship outside of marriage and also in? With a divorce rate around 50%, I wouldn't think that the heterosexuals have any room to say anything about gay relationships and how long they last. But appearantly those break ups aren't painful, hurtful of have any other negative problems. That's convenient.
Of those 70% who voiced an opinion on homosexual problems, how many were gay? Can we ask a bunch of gays to comment on the issues heterosexuals face and count it as fact not speculation by those who haven't got a clue??
Try again.
Again, your data, logic, views are flawed.
My Brother | 11:06 a.m. July 16, 2008
I've known gay people whose lives are rich because they were raised in a
loving and accepted family and community. They're lives have not been
ruined. How does the letter writer and other ignorant people square this with
the claim that homosexuality ruins lives?
My gay brother was raised LDS. At the age of 43, he finally told me about his same sex attraction, and now he enjoys an authentic relationship with a man. Prior to this, he never had a same-sex relationship, and in fact, went on a mission and eventually got married and had children. During this time, he was miserable because his same sex attraction was not a choice and he had to deal with this in the context of wrong teachings by the LDS Church and most of my family members whom he knows does not accept homosexuality. The misery, he experiences, to put it quite simply, is a result of fear and ignorance in the community he was raised. I ask those who share the letter writer's views to take responsibility for the the misery they spread to gays. Learn true responsiblity.
My gay brother was raised LDS. At the age of 43, he finally told me about his same sex attraction, and now he enjoys an authentic relationship with a man. Prior to this, he never had a same-sex relationship, and in fact, went on a mission and eventually got married and had children. During this time, he was miserable because his same sex attraction was not a choice and he had to deal with this in the context of wrong teachings by the LDS Church and most of my family members whom he knows does not accept homosexuality. The misery, he experiences, to put it quite simply, is a result of fear and ignorance in the community he was raised. I ask those who share the letter writer's views to take responsibility for the the misery they spread to gays. Learn true responsiblity.
Roger | 11:07 a.m. July 16, 2008
Here in Utah, as well as many other places, gays and lesbians complain about
being ridiculed and belittled by society. They talk about the desire for greater
love and tolerance, BUT CLEARLY, this love and tolerance is for them, and those
who support them, a ONE-WAY STREET.
Here in Utah, many employers feel it is okay to allow employees to make rude and nasty comments to their LDS co-workers, knowing full well the LDS employees CAN'T DO ANYTHING about it. I, for one have seen this at nearly every place I've worked in Utah.
My brother, who attends West High, was continually labeled "HOMOPHOBE," by students and some teachers simply because he chose not to join the gay-straight club. When my parents complained, they were told nothing coud be done, because of fears of further lawsuits by the ACLU.
Then of course, there's the many professors at SLCC and the U of U, as well as Utah's other leading newspaper. Enough said there.
TO GAYS AND LESBIANS - I see through your act. You demand love and acceptance, but clearly, you DO NOT and WILL NOT, return it to anyone you disagree with. That's the fact.
Here in Utah, many employers feel it is okay to allow employees to make rude and nasty comments to their LDS co-workers, knowing full well the LDS employees CAN'T DO ANYTHING about it. I, for one have seen this at nearly every place I've worked in Utah.
My brother, who attends West High, was continually labeled "HOMOPHOBE," by students and some teachers simply because he chose not to join the gay-straight club. When my parents complained, they were told nothing coud be done, because of fears of further lawsuits by the ACLU.
Then of course, there's the many professors at SLCC and the U of U, as well as Utah's other leading newspaper. Enough said there.
TO GAYS AND LESBIANS - I see through your act. You demand love and acceptance, but clearly, you DO NOT and WILL NOT, return it to anyone you disagree with. That's the fact.
Lyle | 11:18 a.m. July 16, 2008
The radical homosexual agenda in America would have my sympathy were it not for
the following facts:
1. Homosexuals/GLBT�s may or may not be born that way. Whatever. Were they to let well enough alone, then that would be fine. However, it is well-documented and proven that there is such a thing as EX-homosexuals. The change is hard, but possible. I am totally empathetic to this plight, but the fact remains: change is possible.
2. The homosexual lobby is blatantly anti-Christ and anti-Christian. As a Christian, my sympathy for homosexuals spirals downward rapidly on this point alone. Sorry.
3. Because of their activism and zeal to tout and spout their rights, the homosexual agenda also recruits innocent children in the public school system. Impressionable children are filled with homosexual-leaning books like �King and King� and �Heather Has Two Mommies.� Many children who are raised in healthy, heterosexual-rooted family environments are influenced into thinking homosexuality is mainstream and ok. This fact makes my blood boil!
1. Homosexuals/GLBT�s may or may not be born that way. Whatever. Were they to let well enough alone, then that would be fine. However, it is well-documented and proven that there is such a thing as EX-homosexuals. The change is hard, but possible. I am totally empathetic to this plight, but the fact remains: change is possible.
2. The homosexual lobby is blatantly anti-Christ and anti-Christian. As a Christian, my sympathy for homosexuals spirals downward rapidly on this point alone. Sorry.
3. Because of their activism and zeal to tout and spout their rights, the homosexual agenda also recruits innocent children in the public school system. Impressionable children are filled with homosexual-leaning books like �King and King� and �Heather Has Two Mommies.� Many children who are raised in healthy, heterosexual-rooted family environments are influenced into thinking homosexuality is mainstream and ok. This fact makes my blood boil!
Hey Rodger | 11:24 a.m. July 16, 2008
Despite the fact that it could cost me my job, I am open and uot here at work.
All my bosses are active LDS and are good people. They make jokes to me about
my being gay, and I make jokes about them being LDS. I don't believe
ANYONE can demand respect, acceptance and certainly you cannot demand love.
They are all things that are earned and happen with time.
I tolerate a lot here at work. Sometimes one or the other of us crosses the line and we talk about it so that it doesn't happen again, and clearly my bosses could do something about it. But we can discuss this all as adults.
If it seems like things are a one way street, maybe you need to get out of the neighborhood once in a while. I promose there are plenty of two way streets out there. You just can't see tehm when you stay home.
I tolerate a lot here at work. Sometimes one or the other of us crosses the line and we talk about it so that it doesn't happen again, and clearly my bosses could do something about it. But we can discuss this all as adults.
If it seems like things are a one way street, maybe you need to get out of the neighborhood once in a while. I promose there are plenty of two way streets out there. You just can't see tehm when you stay home.
What??? | 11:35 a.m. July 16, 2008
Homosexuality destroys lives? Yeah right. And the heterosexuals have their
lives in such perfect order and are living in their own little Xanadu.
How many children have been affected negatively by their gay parents divorcing? How about the heterosexual sexual preditors, how many lives have they ruined?
The writter of this letter just wanted to see his name in print and see if he couldn't stir up some contention. He's probably sitting at home right now in his parent's basement reading these comments and waiting for Maury to come on to proove paternity of some straight woman who needs DNA testing done on the 45 straight guys she had indiscriminate sex with to find out which one is her child's daddy. But remember, it's the boogey man of HOMOSEXUALITY that destroys lives. Nothing in the straight community does.
Wow!! That's a lot of sarcasm just before lunch....I should have streatched first.
How many children have been affected negatively by their gay parents divorcing? How about the heterosexual sexual preditors, how many lives have they ruined?
The writter of this letter just wanted to see his name in print and see if he couldn't stir up some contention. He's probably sitting at home right now in his parent's basement reading these comments and waiting for Maury to come on to proove paternity of some straight woman who needs DNA testing done on the 45 straight guys she had indiscriminate sex with to find out which one is her child's daddy. But remember, it's the boogey man of HOMOSEXUALITY that destroys lives. Nothing in the straight community does.
Wow!! That's a lot of sarcasm just before lunch....I should have streatched first.
fr1nk to roger | 11:36 a.m. July 16, 2008
Your post seems fake. West high is a big school with many students, are they all
in the gay-straight alliance except your brother? I would bet there is more to
this story. Perhaps your brother said some homophobic things where others could
hear? That would make him homophobic. I have had perhaps 12 jobs in my lifetime
and every place I have worked in Utah was owned by a member of the church.
In my experience, gays dont care much about getting your "love and acceptance", they just want their right to marry the person they love. Even if they wanted your love, you dont have to give it to them. I dont love you and it effects you not at all. I do however tolerate you, barely
In my experience, gays dont care much about getting your "love and acceptance", they just want their right to marry the person they love. Even if they wanted your love, you dont have to give it to them. I dont love you and it effects you not at all. I do however tolerate you, barely
Clark Larsen | 11:39 a.m. July 16, 2008
There's something about this discussion I find confusing. Whenever I read
or hear about depression among gays and lesbians, the cause is usually linked to
external forces. Churches or political groups that belittle the gay lifestyle,
for example.
But when depression among LDS Church members is examed, the cause is usually linked to internal forces. For example, the demands that LDS Church rules place on individuals.
If both observations are correct, this would mean, gays and lesbians have rarely been maligned and ridiculed by one of their own. It would mean, few if any gays or lesbains have ever been in abusive or unfaithful relationship with another gay or lesbian. And it would also mean, few if any gays and lesbians worry about the day-to-day issues many others do worry about it. The cost of living, for example.
On the flip side, this would also mean Latter-day Saints are not capable of being hurt by those would call them "brain-washed" or members of a "cult." It would mean attacks on the LDS Church by co-workers, classmates, clergymen, politicians and journalists so have no effect on Latter-day Saints.
Personally, I feel depression is much more complex than many people believe.
But when depression among LDS Church members is examed, the cause is usually linked to internal forces. For example, the demands that LDS Church rules place on individuals.
If both observations are correct, this would mean, gays and lesbians have rarely been maligned and ridiculed by one of their own. It would mean, few if any gays or lesbains have ever been in abusive or unfaithful relationship with another gay or lesbian. And it would also mean, few if any gays and lesbians worry about the day-to-day issues many others do worry about it. The cost of living, for example.
On the flip side, this would also mean Latter-day Saints are not capable of being hurt by those would call them "brain-washed" or members of a "cult." It would mean attacks on the LDS Church by co-workers, classmates, clergymen, politicians and journalists so have no effect on Latter-day Saints.
Personally, I feel depression is much more complex than many people believe.
wrz | 11:46 a.m. July 16, 2008
I agree @ 12:14 a.m.:
"Gays think if they get "equality" it will make the feelings of guilt, lack of the Spirit, emptiness, self-doubt (hate?) go away. But it's not acceptance or lack of acceptance that makes them feel that way - it's the sin itself."
There is not sin (or guilt) without the law (read commandment).
Wrong-doing is not wrong-doing without a standard by which to measure the action.
"Gays think if they get "equality" it will make the feelings of guilt, lack of the Spirit, emptiness, self-doubt (hate?) go away. But it's not acceptance or lack of acceptance that makes them feel that way - it's the sin itself."
There is not sin (or guilt) without the law (read commandment).
Wrong-doing is not wrong-doing without a standard by which to measure the action.
@ Clark | 11:54 a.m. July 16, 2008
Good points. But how much of depression on either side is caused by genetics?
That doesn't seem to be taken in to account in these comments either. Can
outside influences whether gay orstraight or church related change the bodies
chemistry? I have a chemical depression that I treat, it has nothing to do with
my sexuality, and everything to do with the fact that my body doesn't
produce the right quantity of chemicals.
This is why I don't pay much attention to the comments about depression. Too many variables in the equasion that people choose to ignore.
This is why I don't pay much attention to the comments about depression. Too many variables in the equasion that people choose to ignore.
Mike Richards | 11:58 a.m. July 16, 2008
Who is right? Is the public supposed to blindly take the word of 2% to 10% of
the population who claim to be actively homosexual who support homosexual
activity, or is the public supposed to examine and ponder the findings of
studies that show that those who engage in homosexual activity are at high
risk?
The premise of the letter to the editor said that the practice of homosexual behavior ruins lives.
I've posted excerpts from several sites that support that premise. There are hundreds, and possibly thousands of web sites that have information about the harmful effects of homosexual activity.
Some websites report on the disease common to homosexual participants. Some websites report on the emotional trauma incident to homosexual activity. Some websites report on physical violence among those who are practicing homosexuals.
In all reports, the rate or percentage of destructive behavior was higher in the homosexual community than in the heterosexual community.
Despite claims to the contrary from those who claim to be homosexual, those quotes show that the premise of the letter to the editor has merit.
The premise of the letter to the editor said that the practice of homosexual behavior ruins lives.
I've posted excerpts from several sites that support that premise. There are hundreds, and possibly thousands of web sites that have information about the harmful effects of homosexual activity.
Some websites report on the disease common to homosexual participants. Some websites report on the emotional trauma incident to homosexual activity. Some websites report on physical violence among those who are practicing homosexuals.
In all reports, the rate or percentage of destructive behavior was higher in the homosexual community than in the heterosexual community.
Despite claims to the contrary from those who claim to be homosexual, those quotes show that the premise of the letter to the editor has merit.
@ wrz & @12:14 | 11:57 a.m. July 16, 2008
Equality would make me feel equal.
Believe me, I ahve ZERO feelings of guilt or lack of "the Spirit", emptiness or self doubt when it comes to my being gay.
It's my life. If you choose to call it sinful go ahead, but don't paint all gays with such a big brush. Some of us are not just gay...WE'RE HAPPY AND CONTENTED TOO!
Believe me, I ahve ZERO feelings of guilt or lack of "the Spirit", emptiness or self doubt when it comes to my being gay.
It's my life. If you choose to call it sinful go ahead, but don't paint all gays with such a big brush. Some of us are not just gay...WE'RE HAPPY AND CONTENTED TOO!
JTM | 11:57 a.m. July 16, 2008
Okay I've just read the letter and a long page of comments, and yet
I've failed to read one person explain an important question.:
HOW does homosexuality ruin lives? Mfan came close, but how do we know their lives were ruined by homosexuality, and not infidelity, lying, rejection or something else that happened there? How does the homosexuality itself destroy lives? If anyone comes back with an answer relating to other people's reactions, treatment, etc, then I could easily come back and say the problem is with them.
Can someone offer an answer to this question? I'd love to see one.
This is like me saying "black markers destroy lives," and then ending it right there, without any explanation.
HOW does homosexuality ruin lives? Mfan came close, but how do we know their lives were ruined by homosexuality, and not infidelity, lying, rejection or something else that happened there? How does the homosexuality itself destroy lives? If anyone comes back with an answer relating to other people's reactions, treatment, etc, then I could easily come back and say the problem is with them.
Can someone offer an answer to this question? I'd love to see one.
This is like me saying "black markers destroy lives," and then ending it right there, without any explanation.
jackhp | 12:01 p.m. July 16, 2008
Poor Lyle, so persecuted as a part of the Christian majority.
Roger | 12:01 p.m. July 16, 2008
To fr1nk to roger - 11:36
How dare you! How dare you! But, should I expect anything less from the pro-gay "do as we say, not as we do" crowd?
My brother is incapable of saying anything rude to anyone, much less to a member of a group that would get him expelled in a second. Yes, West High is a big school. It's also a more and more devided high school, thanks in no small part to the gay-straight club which can LEGALLY bully anyone they want to. And like always, nothing is ever their fault. OH NO!Just blame the victim!
To Hey Rodger - 11:24
Next time one of your co-workers makes fun of you, I bet you can call the ACLU and get their fanny fired in a second. Isn't it great to belong to a group which is protected by the PC Thought Police?
How dare you! How dare you! But, should I expect anything less from the pro-gay "do as we say, not as we do" crowd?
My brother is incapable of saying anything rude to anyone, much less to a member of a group that would get him expelled in a second. Yes, West High is a big school. It's also a more and more devided high school, thanks in no small part to the gay-straight club which can LEGALLY bully anyone they want to. And like always, nothing is ever their fault. OH NO!Just blame the victim!
To Hey Rodger - 11:24
Next time one of your co-workers makes fun of you, I bet you can call the ACLU and get their fanny fired in a second. Isn't it great to belong to a group which is protected by the PC Thought Police?
LDS action next? | 12:03 p.m. July 16, 2008
In a voice vote, and with no objections, the Massachusetts Senate voted
Wednesday to allow same-sex couples from outside the state to come to
Massachusetts to marry.
At issue in the vote was a 1913 state law that had originally been targeted at interracial marriage; it forbids Massachusetts authorities from marrying a couple if their marriage would be illegal in their home state. It had been obscure and unused for many years, but former Gov. Mitt Romney resurrected it after the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled in 2003 that the state could not bar same-sex couples from getting married.
According to the New York Times, the repeal is expected to pass the state House later this week, and Gov. Deval Patrick has said he will sign it.
Yet another scathing loss for the busy-body neocons who simply cannot refrain from sticking their noses into other people's business so that they can judge and therefor condemn them.
What a ridiculous (and ever-shrinking) group of people!
At issue in the vote was a 1913 state law that had originally been targeted at interracial marriage; it forbids Massachusetts authorities from marrying a couple if their marriage would be illegal in their home state. It had been obscure and unused for many years, but former Gov. Mitt Romney resurrected it after the Massachusetts Supreme Judicial Court ruled in 2003 that the state could not bar same-sex couples from getting married.
According to the New York Times, the repeal is expected to pass the state House later this week, and Gov. Deval Patrick has said he will sign it.
Yet another scathing loss for the busy-body neocons who simply cannot refrain from sticking their noses into other people's business so that they can judge and therefor condemn them.
What a ridiculous (and ever-shrinking) group of people!
"Selfish lifestyles"? | 12:07 p.m. July 16, 2008
Give us a break! How many marriages end in divorce because of the selfish
lifestyles of heterosexuals that have affairs, mistresses etc? Those
"selfish lifestyles" far out-do the gay lifestyles. I think that
because there are so many selfish people out there that they want to find a
scapegoat through the gay people. Sure, there are stories of selfish gay
lifestyles too, but there are also stories of responsible, caring people in that
lifestyle. Leave them alone and strenghten your own marriages/lives.
wrz | 12:16 p.m. July 16, 2008
Gopherus @ 7:15 a.m.:
"Actually the issue of same-sex marriage isn't really that complicated. I can say, as a fellow human and based on my own research of gays and the U.S. Constitution, that gays do deserve equal rights."
And they have equal rights. They can marry whomever they will as long as it is of the opposite sex. Same as anybody else.
"Each human has an inner voice that can tell them these things."
The inner voice was put there by external teachings.
"Will allowing same-sex marriage harm me or my family? No."
We are not concerned whether same-sex marriage will harm you... but rather, will it harm society or the human race. And it will.
"If I were to deny the right to same sex marriage would I be denying others something I hold dear? Yes."
If you don't apply restrictions to the right to marry you will eventually have polygamy, marriage between first cousins, brothers and sisters, marriages to animals, multiple partners marrying multiple partners in sort of a communal group marriage, and many other relational combinations that can be conjured up. Is that what you want?
"Actually the issue of same-sex marriage isn't really that complicated. I can say, as a fellow human and based on my own research of gays and the U.S. Constitution, that gays do deserve equal rights."
And they have equal rights. They can marry whomever they will as long as it is of the opposite sex. Same as anybody else.
"Each human has an inner voice that can tell them these things."
The inner voice was put there by external teachings.
"Will allowing same-sex marriage harm me or my family? No."
We are not concerned whether same-sex marriage will harm you... but rather, will it harm society or the human race. And it will.
"If I were to deny the right to same sex marriage would I be denying others something I hold dear? Yes."
If you don't apply restrictions to the right to marry you will eventually have polygamy, marriage between first cousins, brothers and sisters, marriages to animals, multiple partners marrying multiple partners in sort of a communal group marriage, and many other relational combinations that can be conjured up. Is that what you want?
jackhp | 12:16 p.m. July 16, 2008
Poor Roger, so much persecution . . . so little time to whine about it.
Morgan | 12:20 p.m. July 16, 2008
My experience watching two extended family members who were involved in same-sex
relationships is that it has caused them both deep sadness and difficult
problems. The sadness and problems arose from the relationships themselves and
not, as some may believe, from being judged or rejected by family or other
people. In the situation I know most about, the parents have always been
loving, non-judgmental, and non-critical. I strongly believe that lasting
happiness is most likely to be found in traditional marriage built on a
foundation of the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. In a world of increasing
difficulty and turmoil, may we all find that lasting peace and happiness through
the Prince of Peace.
jackhp | 12:21 p.m. July 16, 2008
Mike Richards,
I repeat, for the benefit of others (obviously), homosexual activity does not equal homosexual promiscuity. Most, if not all, of your so-called "harmful effects of homosexuality" can be attributed to promiscuity, NOT homosexuality itself.
Thank you for once again providing the argument FOR legalizing gay marriage in that doing so would help to reduce promiscuity in the long run.
I repeat, for the benefit of others (obviously), homosexual activity does not equal homosexual promiscuity. Most, if not all, of your so-called "harmful effects of homosexuality" can be attributed to promiscuity, NOT homosexuality itself.
Thank you for once again providing the argument FOR legalizing gay marriage in that doing so would help to reduce promiscuity in the long run.
John Bisceglia | 12:25 p.m. July 16, 2008
It is immoral and unjust to expect gays and lesbians to pay taxes to a
government that denies our families civil marriage. Period.
Marriage Inequality hurts families. It hurts children. It hurts grandparents. It hurts communities.
The GLTB comminuty does not exist in a vacuum. We are integrated into schools, churches, local politics, nursing homes, etc., etc. When OUR families suffer due to Marriage Inequality, YOU (heterosexuals) also suffer, socially and financially.
Watch "Freeheld" or "Tying the Knot"; if you still want to deny gays civil marriage, go right ahead, but do NOT expect myself or ANY other gay person to pay taxes to a society that treats us as "less than human".
Marriage Inequality hurts families. It hurts children. It hurts grandparents. It hurts communities.
The GLTB comminuty does not exist in a vacuum. We are integrated into schools, churches, local politics, nursing homes, etc., etc. When OUR families suffer due to Marriage Inequality, YOU (heterosexuals) also suffer, socially and financially.
Watch "Freeheld" or "Tying the Knot"; if you still want to deny gays civil marriage, go right ahead, but do NOT expect myself or ANY other gay person to pay taxes to a society that treats us as "less than human".
Anonymous | 12:30 p.m. July 16, 2008
Actually, I don't think this sort of thing is beyond the scope of an adult
participating in society to decide for themselves. We should expect no less; we
don't need the quorum of old guys downtown to tell us.
What I've decided is that religion is one of the most divisive and counter productive forces in our society.
What I've decided is that religion is one of the most divisive and counter productive forces in our society.
To Mike R. | 12:40 p.m. July 16, 2008
"Some websites report on physical violence among those who are practicing
homosexuals.
In all reports, the rate or percentage of destructive behavior was higher in the homosexual community than in the heterosexual community."
I truely doubt the truthfulness of these two statements. There is NOT a greater incidence of physical violence in same sex relationships. I will skip any further postings with your name on them. They are made up or exaggerated to bolster your claims.
In all reports, the rate or percentage of destructive behavior was higher in the homosexual community than in the heterosexual community."
I truely doubt the truthfulness of these two statements. There is NOT a greater incidence of physical violence in same sex relationships. I will skip any further postings with your name on them. They are made up or exaggerated to bolster your claims.
wrz | 12:40 p.m. July 16, 2008
@ wrz & @12:14 | 11:57 a.m. July 16, 2008
"Believe me, I have ZERO feelings of guilt or lack of "the Spirit", emptiness or self doubt when it comes to my being gay.
It's my life. If you choose to call it sinful go ahead, but don't paint all gays with such a big brush. Some of us are not just gay...WE'RE HAPPY AND CONTENTED TOO!"
You can, with persistence, sear your conscience as with a hot iron. Which, in your case, sounds like a good thing. For now.
"Believe me, I have ZERO feelings of guilt or lack of "the Spirit", emptiness or self doubt when it comes to my being gay.
It's my life. If you choose to call it sinful go ahead, but don't paint all gays with such a big brush. Some of us are not just gay...WE'RE HAPPY AND CONTENTED TOO!"
You can, with persistence, sear your conscience as with a hot iron. Which, in your case, sounds like a good thing. For now.
Mike Richards | 12:46 p.m. July 16, 2008
Jackhp,
Your contention in your 12:21 post is not supported by the studies that I posted.
Every individual is different. You may be different from the group in the study. You may be an anomaly when compared to the whole. However, your personal experience does not invalidate any of the studies. Those studies reported facts - not fantasy.
Many of the websites reported that in the homosexual community, being "faithful" to a partner was viewed differently than in the heterosexual community. The homosexual community allowed occasional infidelity without labeling the dalliance as being unfaithful. In the heterosexual community any dalliance constituted infidelity.
In addition, the definition of promiscuity is seen differently in the homosexual community as opposed to the way that it is seen in the heterosexual community. If promiscuity included having EVER had, in an entire lifetime, more than one sexual partner, then odds are that the homosexual community would have a much higher rate of promiscuity than the heterosexual community. Indeed many heterosexual couples in Utah have never, ever been promiscuous, not even once.
The premise of the letter to the editor is that the practice of homosexual behavior ruins lives. Facts support that conclusion.
Your contention in your 12:21 post is not supported by the studies that I posted.
Every individual is different. You may be different from the group in the study. You may be an anomaly when compared to the whole. However, your personal experience does not invalidate any of the studies. Those studies reported facts - not fantasy.
Many of the websites reported that in the homosexual community, being "faithful" to a partner was viewed differently than in the heterosexual community. The homosexual community allowed occasional infidelity without labeling the dalliance as being unfaithful. In the heterosexual community any dalliance constituted infidelity.
In addition, the definition of promiscuity is seen differently in the homosexual community as opposed to the way that it is seen in the heterosexual community. If promiscuity included having EVER had, in an entire lifetime, more than one sexual partner, then odds are that the homosexual community would have a much higher rate of promiscuity than the heterosexual community. Indeed many heterosexual couples in Utah have never, ever been promiscuous, not even once.
The premise of the letter to the editor is that the practice of homosexual behavior ruins lives. Facts support that conclusion.
John Lambert | 12:45 p.m. July 16, 2008
To Darin,
Your claim that homosexuality by itself does not ruin lives is not supported by the data.
Instances of drug abuse and suicide among homosexuals are just as high in places like San Francisco where their bhavior is widely accepted than in places where it is not.
Beyond this, I wish people would learn the truth about violence against homosexuals. The domestic violence rate between homosexuals is over 10 times the level of hate incidents recorded against them.
Lesbian woman are four times as likely to be abused by their partner as a married woman is to be abused by her husband.
Your claim that homosexuality by itself does not ruin lives is not supported by the data.
Instances of drug abuse and suicide among homosexuals are just as high in places like San Francisco where their bhavior is widely accepted than in places where it is not.
Beyond this, I wish people would learn the truth about violence against homosexuals. The domestic violence rate between homosexuals is over 10 times the level of hate incidents recorded against them.
Lesbian woman are four times as likely to be abused by their partner as a married woman is to be abused by her husband.
fr1nk to roger | 12:46 p.m. July 16, 2008
How dare I? I'll tell you how. You made a claim that seems remarkable, that
in a school with more that 1000 students, whos gay-straight club I will bet has
less than 50 students (just guessing, probably much less), your brother was
singled out and called a homophobe because he didnt join a group that contains a
very small percentage of the student body. It doesnt add up. You are getting 2nd
hand information. You dont know what went down, just what he told you. Then
again, if my older brother was full of the kind of fear that you have, I would
have told stories about how the gays were persecuting me. But it turns out my
brother is gay and when I was in high school I was homophobic as well.
Your persecution complex is over the top.
Your persecution complex is over the top.
John Lambert | 12:50 p.m. July 16, 2008
To Jason,
You are right that infidelity is not limited to homosexuals. However how many wives out there would consider a husband who goes around having sex with other women to be in a committed relationship with her? How many husbands whose wife goes and has sex with some different guy she meets at a bar every Friday would consider her a faithful wife?
Yet in a great many homosexual relationships that is what happens. They accept that they will have sex on the side with other partners and are open about it with each other.
You are right that infidelity is not limited to homosexuals. However how many wives out there would consider a husband who goes around having sex with other women to be in a committed relationship with her? How many husbands whose wife goes and has sex with some different guy she meets at a bar every Friday would consider her a faithful wife?
Yet in a great many homosexual relationships that is what happens. They accept that they will have sex on the side with other partners and are open about it with each other.
John Lambert | 12:55 p.m. July 16, 2008
To WOW,
Brother Talbot was not hateful in his letter. He held to a position. Are those of us who speak against drug use also responsible for every suicide committed by a drug user because we have not been tolerant enough of their method of living?
Brother Talbot was not hateful in his letter. He held to a position. Are those of us who speak against drug use also responsible for every suicide committed by a drug user because we have not been tolerant enough of their method of living?
John Lambert | 1:07 p.m. July 16, 2008
To Anonymous,
This letter is not just beating against a wall. Brother Talbot might have been better off had he sited the fact that HIV is much more prevalent among homosexuals, that many do not warn partners beforehand that they are HIV positive and then have unprotected sex.
There is even a movement within the "gay community" that feels people should have pride in being HIV positive.
On the same token, if tracing and isolation methods were used to stop the spread of HIV than the whole disease might have been stopped. But no, you can't be that mean to homosexuals to cut them off from having sex.
One more thing, some of the government money supposedly syphoned off to fight AIDS in fact was spent on making pornography.
This letter is not just beating against a wall. Brother Talbot might have been better off had he sited the fact that HIV is much more prevalent among homosexuals, that many do not warn partners beforehand that they are HIV positive and then have unprotected sex.
There is even a movement within the "gay community" that feels people should have pride in being HIV positive.
On the same token, if tracing and isolation methods were used to stop the spread of HIV than the whole disease might have been stopped. But no, you can't be that mean to homosexuals to cut them off from having sex.
One more thing, some of the government money supposedly syphoned off to fight AIDS in fact was spent on making pornography.
To Mike Richards | 1:08 p.m. July 16, 2008
Yes, you have quoted a lot of information from websites. But take a look at
those websites and you will find that each has an agenda specifically targeted
to attack homosexuals. I could just as easily quote numerous websites that have
an agenda specifically targeted to attack Mormons. You have no idea whether or
not the information on the website is corrected or only partially correct.
John Lambert | 1:08 p.m. July 16, 2008
To SLC resident,
YOu are right that Brother Talbot is not normal in his LDS views. He has been seduced by the pro-homosexual lobby more than some into even saying that this argument is about rights.
The argument is about whether we should make positively endorsed by public policy a behavior that is destructive, that leads to higher drug and alchohol abuse levels and suicide rates, much higher domestic violence rates and on and on and on.
Maybe you think you are better off not being judged, but the actual statistics show that the rate of suicide among homosexuals is just as high in San Francisco as it is in Utah.
YOu are right that Brother Talbot is not normal in his LDS views. He has been seduced by the pro-homosexual lobby more than some into even saying that this argument is about rights.
The argument is about whether we should make positively endorsed by public policy a behavior that is destructive, that leads to higher drug and alchohol abuse levels and suicide rates, much higher domestic violence rates and on and on and on.
Maybe you think you are better off not being judged, but the actual statistics show that the rate of suicide among homosexuals is just as high in San Francisco as it is in Utah.
Remember when | 1:16 p.m. July 16, 2008
Just wanted to remind you all that in the history of religious theocracy, people
who were born with down's syndrome were considered possesed by the devil.
Those born with physical birth defects, moles or birth marks were cursed.
These same people said that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun rotated around the earth, which was flat.
And some religious leaders also stated that the people who lived on the moon dressed like quakers and were 10 feet tall.
Not to mention that religious leaders found a four year old girl guilty of practicing witchcraft in Salem.
How many religious leaders have bilked their followers out of their money? God was supposed to kill off Oral Roberts if he didn't raise ther money he needed for a school, which he didn't raise, and which god didn't smite him down for. And on and on it goes.
What makes these people feel qualified to tell me ANYTHING about my life or even my rights as a homosexual? Seems that they need to get more than a few facts straight.
These same people said that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun rotated around the earth, which was flat.
And some religious leaders also stated that the people who lived on the moon dressed like quakers and were 10 feet tall.
Not to mention that religious leaders found a four year old girl guilty of practicing witchcraft in Salem.
How many religious leaders have bilked their followers out of their money? God was supposed to kill off Oral Roberts if he didn't raise ther money he needed for a school, which he didn't raise, and which god didn't smite him down for. And on and on it goes.
What makes these people feel qualified to tell me ANYTHING about my life or even my rights as a homosexual? Seems that they need to get more than a few facts straight.
John Lambert | 1:17 p.m. July 16, 2008
To jce,
Your equating slavery to prostitution shows your modern value system.
In ancient Israel taking sexual advantage of slaves was not at all allowed. The theory that salvery=postitution is actually a post-1870 innovation that comes out of the racially charged rhetoric of the "white slave trade" and although taking sexual advantage of female slaves clearly predates that, actually making them work as prostitutes was not a widespread process.
You also fail to face up to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah before the law of Moses is given.
Beyond this, it is very hard to discuss the societal implications of homosexuality because whenever someone say "homosexuality is linked to a much higher incidence of drug use" they are called a hate mongering bigot and their statements are ignored.
Your equating slavery to prostitution shows your modern value system.
In ancient Israel taking sexual advantage of slaves was not at all allowed. The theory that salvery=postitution is actually a post-1870 innovation that comes out of the racially charged rhetoric of the "white slave trade" and although taking sexual advantage of female slaves clearly predates that, actually making them work as prostitutes was not a widespread process.
You also fail to face up to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah before the law of Moses is given.
Beyond this, it is very hard to discuss the societal implications of homosexuality because whenever someone say "homosexuality is linked to a much higher incidence of drug use" they are called a hate mongering bigot and their statements are ignored.
Charles | 1:23 p.m. July 16, 2008
jackhp....interesting you are making an argument that homosexuals don't
even make. They tells us that promiscuity is low in the homosexual community so
providing them the word marriage will do nothing to stem something that
doesn't exist.
If you actually have read studies about this issue, you'd know that homosexuals are much more promiscuous than their heterosexual counterparts. Homosexuals have numerous encounters in a behavior that can kill you with the diseases one can acquire.
To the popinjay poster who "thinks" conservatisms is on the decline, you are foolish in your analysis; mainly because you don't have any analysis.
Conservatives are here and we will be coming out of the apathy hole that many live in to help restore morality to this country; upon which it can only sustain without being destroyed.
The wicked perversions that some in society want to mainstream and normal and natural are the root causes of society destruction. We live in a society that is more wicked than Sodom and Gomorrah.
Accepting homosexual behavior and the killing of the unborn (in the name of choice) are the biggest stains we have upon us. Both behaviors are the height of arrogance and selfishness.
If you actually have read studies about this issue, you'd know that homosexuals are much more promiscuous than their heterosexual counterparts. Homosexuals have numerous encounters in a behavior that can kill you with the diseases one can acquire.
To the popinjay poster who "thinks" conservatisms is on the decline, you are foolish in your analysis; mainly because you don't have any analysis.
Conservatives are here and we will be coming out of the apathy hole that many live in to help restore morality to this country; upon which it can only sustain without being destroyed.
The wicked perversions that some in society want to mainstream and normal and natural are the root causes of society destruction. We live in a society that is more wicked than Sodom and Gomorrah.
Accepting homosexual behavior and the killing of the unborn (in the name of choice) are the biggest stains we have upon us. Both behaviors are the height of arrogance and selfishness.
Okay, but what is alternative? | 1:24 p.m. July 16, 2008
Homosexuality ruins lives? Okay what is the alternative for people who are
wired differently than normal?
Are they to go without. Marry anyway but leave their husband or wife unfulfilled? What alternative do you propose?
Are they to go without. Marry anyway but leave their husband or wife unfulfilled? What alternative do you propose?
jackhp | 1:25 p.m. July 16, 2008
LOL, Mike, I don't remember saying I was gay. Why would you presume that I
am?
Your "facts" don't prove the premise of letter at all. Just saying homosexuality is inherently promiscuous doesn't make it so. Definitions of "promiscuity" aside (I think yours would be a bit extreme) could you please point to anything you've posted which "proves" that homosexuality is inherently promiscuous.
Your "facts" don't prove the premise of letter at all. Just saying homosexuality is inherently promiscuous doesn't make it so. Definitions of "promiscuity" aside (I think yours would be a bit extreme) could you please point to anything you've posted which "proves" that homosexuality is inherently promiscuous.
Valeeda | 1:22 p.m. July 16, 2008
Mike Richards: Norway is more than proof of your stats. There has been a study
made there, where your statistics are more than verified.
Norway boasts of a society where the gay lifestyle has been legitimized completely. No homosexual there can claim to suffer social exclusion, rejection, discrimination, or even criticism or their "lifestyle"(perversion). Nevertheless, homosexuals there create more crime, Have more social adjustment problems, and are more relationship unstable and promiscuous than even this website said they did. So who can they blame for their problems now? The political situation makes them a "protected group"(more than equal). No religion can preach against them, and their families must accept them.
Homosexuality is unnatural and does have a cause(you are not just "born that way"). This really is a cause and effect universe.
I object to Homosexuality because it is unnatural and because it is philosophically an impossibility.
3+3 cannot equal 7.
As your website says, you don't need to be religious to see this. I see it.
Norway boasts of a society where the gay lifestyle has been legitimized completely. No homosexual there can claim to suffer social exclusion, rejection, discrimination, or even criticism or their "lifestyle"(perversion). Nevertheless, homosexuals there create more crime, Have more social adjustment problems, and are more relationship unstable and promiscuous than even this website said they did. So who can they blame for their problems now? The political situation makes them a "protected group"(more than equal). No religion can preach against them, and their families must accept them.
Homosexuality is unnatural and does have a cause(you are not just "born that way"). This really is a cause and effect universe.
I object to Homosexuality because it is unnatural and because it is philosophically an impossibility.
3+3 cannot equal 7.
As your website says, you don't need to be religious to see this. I see it.
Moral Relativism | 1:23 p.m. July 16, 2008
Most states will not allow someone to marry their sibling, child, first cousin
or uncle (I agree with those laws). But let's say that I wanted to marry
one of those people, should I be able to? Where is the line? Inherently, the
laws of any country are based on a certain set of morality. If they were not,
then murder, rape and incest might need to be redefined as okay for a portion of
the population. There have been several stories in the last few years of
"honor killings" where killer believed that murder is acceptable in
certain instances. Should we redefine murder as "killing by someone who
thinks that murder is wrong"? But more on point (because I realize that
murder and homosexuality are not on the same level), should the laws dealing
with incest be done away with because some people do not think that incest is
wrong?
Maybe, morality should just be relative. That way we do not offend anyone, which is of course the object of many people in this country.
Maybe, morality should just be relative. That way we do not offend anyone, which is of course the object of many people in this country.
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I see that some people are engaging in hate speech on both sides of this issue. On one side, there are those who hate homosexuals, on the other side, there are clearly those who hate religious people (or people who adhere to a certain moral principle). I personally do not hate either side. But because I do not accept immorality (i.e. homosexuality), I will be labeled a bigot. Immorality of any kind will lead to pain and regret, unless the action is turned away from and forsaken.