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Readers' forum: Homosexual acts are sinful

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Liberals fault | 12:40 p.m. July 15, 2008

It's all the liberal's fault.
They want everybody to be gay and have abortions.
They hate America and apple pie.

@Agki | 12:47 p.m. July 15, 2008

There are many civilizations that have vanished. The cause of which we cannot be certain. In Mexico alone the Olmec, Zapotec, Toltec, Maya and others less well known all failed.

What I believe is that our government and our society reflect our collective morality. A highly immoral civilization is unlikely to function well for any prolonged period of time. These things happen over many generations and are not likely appreciated from anyone's personal life experience. The idea makes sense to me.

Mahonri | 12:57 p.m. July 15, 2008

"in the eyes of an unchanging God."

Just where do you find this God. In changing his mind about Independence, MO being Zion? In changing his mind on Polygamy being practiced and necessary, negroes and the priesthood, 'as god is man may become' and competitive LDS Church baketball and baseball you surely cannot be referring to the LDS version of the supreme being.

Comments continue below

FLDS | 1:00 p.m. July 15, 2008

I'm not really FLDS, but I've always wondered why progressives in our society are shocked, agast and agog about the FLDS lifestyle (especially their sex life and poligamy) yet the same people have no problems with the Homosexual acts.

Anyone who even questions if homosexual acts are "Sinful" on this website gets called names and berated. So the gay-sex supporters refuse to be tolerant of the Christian's point of view, but on the other hand they totally badger and berate anyone who isn't 100% tolerant and accepting of homosexual acts... It just seems odd in my opinion.

We're are all adults here, right?. We all understand what "Homosexual Acts" are. We all know what they put where and why. And you insist everyone accept, be toloerant and never question this?

Think about it...
FLDS are animals for polygamy, but we have no problem if they are having sex with their secretary, or someone they meet at the bar, or visit a prostitute while on a business trip? The FLDS sex-life is terrible to you, but you insist homosexual acts should be fine with everybody?

Why don't the same progressive people preach Tolerance for the FLDS lifestyle? Is-selective-tolerance-really-tolerance?

News Flash for y'all | 12:58 p.m. July 15, 2008

I am a very moral person. I believe in telling the truth. I believe in justice. I love my children and work hard to help them become responsible, productive members of society. I revere the U.S. Constitution. I pay my taxes and vote in every election.

Because I love American and believe in acting responsibly towards my fellow citizens, I do my part to help make the world a more sane and rational place. That means I don't believe in your God (for the exact same reasons you folks don't believe in Zeus).

It also means that I become incensed when superstitious bigots try to force their willfully-ignorant and delusional views on the rest of us.

If you want to believe in fairy-tales, you go right ahead. However, leave me and my country's laws out of your little fantasy-land.

Jud | 1:01 p.m. July 15, 2008

As an LDS person, I feel obligated to support the Prophet when he speaks clearly against legalizing gay marriage. I admit I don't understand the reasons for his opposition. (Any LDS who say they do understand it know a lot more than I do.) But I have faith in him, that he can see further than I can, that there must be a compelling future problem. It may have something to do with children and their care. It may have to do with future legal problems for the Church. I don't know, but I'm not prepared to second guess the Prophet of the Lord.

To Mike R. | 1:15 p.m. July 15, 2008

"A 'sin' is a 'sin'."

Really?

According to whom? You? What about other people's interpretations of "sin."

According to some "God"? Which one (there's no shortage), and why?

According to some ancient texts? Which one, and why is yours better than others?

Why is your particular invisible super-friend "real" while the other invisible super-friends of human history aren't?

Anonymous | 1:14 p.m. July 15, 2008

Morality like beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Political partisans like the neocons believe they should have the right to dictate everything to everybody.

Jeffrey | 1:22 p.m. July 15, 2008

"I care not whether God is on my side; my concern is for whether I am on His."

Far too many people, including many here, are getting that completely backwards.

Why can't you understand IT DOES NOT matter if you consider it a sin! The only person who that should have any bearing on is yourself! My morals should not apply to you, and yours should not apply to others.

It is fine to believe that your morals came from God, but if you are attempting to force those morals on others then God is most assuredly not on your side.

Those who are LDS here should remember another key doctrine in the Church which is that God gave all people their free agency to make their own choices.

If somebody has knowingly chosen a wrong path then they will need to answer to God for that, but they do not have to answer to me.

Can't you understand that?

Karl | 2:09 p.m. July 15, 2008

To Posting at 12:36

Gosh, when I was a kid the sunday school teacher told us that there were twelve foot tall guys on the moon that were so strong that they could toss stones all the way to the east coast of the good old USA.
She also said that if you were "special" enough you would be able to read real neat thing on the stones.

So, now because there is no scripture to back up her comments, you are actually saying she was being infantile?

Gosh dang, now I am really confused.
Ah, (roll of eyes) what about the reality of...oh never mind.

Mike Richards | 2:28 p.m. July 15, 2008

While Googling the word "sin", I found this interesting quote:

"The Greek word "anomia" in King James Version means "without law" or "lawlessness"."

"Other translations translates this verse correctly. One example is the New King James Version: "Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness.""

"When you say "Sin" is lawlessness, you are talking about an attitude towards "law", an attitude of rejecting "law", even if you are not breaking the "law." In essence, what the Apostle John was saying in 1 John 3:4 was that sin is missing the mark which is an attitude of lawlessness. If we have an attitude or frame of mind of "contempt" for law then we are missing the mark."

---------

From many of the posts today, "contempt" for God and for God's laws has been placed in evidence. That would go hand-in-hand with the rest of the definition of "missing the mark".

Re "News Flash for y'all | 12:58 | 2:35 p.m. July 15, 2008

News Flash says, "If you want to believe in fairy-tales, you go right ahead. However, leave me and my country's laws out of your little fantasy-land".

What in the original opinion or any of the subsequent comments makes you think your country's laws are being threatened?

News Flash wasn't the first to make this complaint (about "Quit trying to change our laws"). I read it several times earlier and was wondering what they were talking about.

I don't have time to go back and get the references but many others feeling they need to defend the non-sin status of homosexual acts have also mentioned "Laws" in their comments. What do laws have to do with this? We're talking about a morality issue, not a legal issue.

I don't think any of those saying, "homosexual acts are sinful", are proposing changing the Constitution or any laws. Did you read that somewhere I missed?

My opinion is... What I think about Homosexual-acts doesn't matter (to you). What Ya'll think about homosexual-acts doesn't matter (to me). For me, it's between me and God. If you have to dis God to justify homosexual-acts as being "OK", that's not a decision for an outsider-to-make.

Why fixate on it? | 2:42 p.m. July 15, 2008

Those secure with their sexual preference look at the homosexuality thing, agree that it is certainly weird to them - then move on. They really couldn't care less.

Then there are those who for some odd reason find themselves focusing and obsessing about it. They might entertain just WHY it is that they have fixated on it.

Valeeda | 2:54 p.m. July 15, 2008

To Karl: Very perceptive, as I never said I was trying to be "Christ-like". If we want to clean up the earth, we had better live on it in harmony with it's own natural laws don't you think? The earth we live on is constantly procreating every spring. If it didn't do it, everyone of us and it would die.
So are all the animals.
To Chris Plummer: Don't shoot me, I'm only the messenger. Facts are not always pleasant and what we want to hear. Too bad if you would like it otherwise.

Chris Plummer | 3:51 p.m. July 15, 2008

Re: Valeeda,
I would disagree, you are not the messenger, you have interrupted someone else's morals into your own and you think everyone should do what you do. News flash... isn't happening

Karl | 3:56 p.m. July 15, 2008

Veleeda: Is bashing gay people, and trying to deny them the same rights as you enjoy a natural law?

Get real. By using the religious argument, you disqualify yourself, as nothing in any religious text has ever been proven to be the word of God. Any God, Muslim, American Indian, Hindu, whatever.

Chris Plummer | 3:58 p.m. July 15, 2008

To all you spouting off religious doctrines and the like remind me of the people around temple square, just yelling at random people, thinking they are making a difference, when in reality they are just being a nuisance, because ultimately they are such a minority they have to yell loud so everyone in the room will look at them

East Bay | 4:35 p.m. July 15, 2008

Re Valeeda
Do you really think the human race is in trouble because we don't procreate enough? That argument is pretty weak.

Karl | 4:44 p.m. July 15, 2008

Oh, and Veleeda: I am not a godless immoral person.

What I believe in is this: When I am in a canyon, or a home, or anyplace for that matter, I decided long ago to not worship a God of despotism and dogma.
So when I want to communicate with my God, I don't have to worry about being judgemental, I don't worry about excluding anybody from my God. MY God excepts all good people, people who do good things for society and mankind in general, My God wants me to treat people the way I would like to be treated. My God wants me to use common sense when it comes to making decisions.

I don't want to judge anybody on earth, and they don't have to think the same way as I do in order to be accepted in my Gods eyes.

It has worked for nearly my whole life. I have friends and family that believe in so many different things its incredible. But we get along and respect each other quite nice.

The reason is: No judgements are made be anybody in the name of "thier God". Most of us have learned. Peace to all>

Valeeda | 5:06 p.m. July 15, 2008

Well, I am really hitting some "pay dirt" with a couple of people here. I know I am doing a good job when that happens. Thank You.
EAst Bay: You saw what I said. Don't put words in my mouth and make me defend them.
Chris: This is not a political debate with me. Therefore politically correct words like gay-bashing do not make a good fit. Your opinion of me as shover down your throat of moral "virtues" just show that neither you or Karl know how to read.
FOR THE THIRD TIME, the religious-secular debate here is ridiculous. I AM NOT MAKING ANY KIND OF RELIGIOUS OR POLITICAL STATEMENT.
I am simply an observer of nature and a respector thereof.
You saw what I said. You saw my opinion. If you didn't get it the first time, read it again.

FaithNoMo | 5:07 p.m. July 15, 2008

Oh Mr. Overfelt, must you send such ignorant hate to the paper?
Mike Richards, Did God him self tell you Sin was Sin? Or did you get this at Church? Drop the dogma man!

RE: Greg and others | 5:08 p.m. July 15, 2008

What make you think God has ever Changed his mind?

Do you know God's complete thoughts and plans?

How do you know anything was actually changed?

God must work around the agency he has given us.

And at times must use alternative plans to keep his great work moving forward.

Thus the need to stop the practice of polygamy for a awhile. (better that than allow his church to be destroyed)

OR because of persecution move the headquarters church to Utah temporarily.
(apparently God knew it ahead of time, thus the scripture about the godpel coming from the tops of the mountains)

And how do you know there wasn't a plan to eventually give the blacks the priesthood?, thus no change.

Hence, God is unchanging. But has perfect foresight to his plan making. One must continue move forward dispite of the agency he has given us.

Chris Plummer | 5:28 p.m. July 15, 2008

RE: Valeeda

You observations of nature are incorrect and short sighted. Enough said.

Typical AM Radio folk | 5:38 p.m. July 15, 2008

Veleeda, You use argument style tactics of the AM radio listener.

Dont answer any questions, just create new questions without saying anything.

The problem with that is you stand for nothing at all I guess.

My "God" is a SHE (or neutral) | 5:57 p.m. July 15, 2008

And she is just as valid as your "he". My "God" doesn't speak against anyone and teaches LOVE only.

Anonymous | 6:01 p.m. July 15, 2008

Does anyone see the hypocrasy of Karl's comments. He judges others and then spews his religion which means he judges no one. Interesting.....

To; Re Greg and others | 6:09 p.m. July 15, 2008

WoW, so you know no matter what God does it is all in the big picture?

Could you please ask God to get some food to the millions of starving children around the world?

While you are at it, could you please ask him to clean up the earth. We humans have pretty much destroyed it. Soon all of our water and food will be gone.

I don't suppose you know why all the killing, rape, child molestation, needs to go on, do you?

My friend, the real answers lie within ourselves, not religious books and scriptures. They were all written by men, and there could be some very wrong mandates, don't you think?

Sins | 6:29 p.m. July 15, 2008

An othrodox Jew would think it a grave sin to put god's name on money.

K2 | 6:34 p.m. July 15, 2008

Isn't it always amazing how someone (indirectly affected) can be so knock-down, drag-out "correct" whilst most often, those same kind of folks wonder what hit them when they are directly affected. If you live on this planet long enough you'll run across those folks so highly opinionated about something but then haven't the guts to apologize for all their outspokeness when they are directly affected by say someone in their own family - perhaps a child, grandchild, sibling, or self. Or is this where "disowning" someone comes into play and all in the name of God, commandments, long-standing policy, ad nauseum. I recently read in a national magazine that the Kahlahari Bushmen of Africa have on occasion told Christian missionaries that their God cannot be found in paper (The Bible). Maybe it is time to look elsewhere by using that God-given head on your shoulders. Even x-rays of Dizzy Dean's head (after being struck by a baseball) dint show nuthin'. Why not quit trying to pick up needles on the floor when there are anvils laying all over the place. Enuf, already !

Valeeda | 7:12 p.m. July 15, 2008

I am getting alot of name calling and critism, but no one is giving me any good information about their side of things.
And by the way, I do not listen to talk radio or even television, for that matter.
I am a nature person.
All you religious people out there who have been noting that your freedom of speech is being taken away by the homosexual agenda, you can also see that NO COMPETING PHILOSOPHY is allowed either. So not only religious freedom and the forward social expansion that creates is allowed, but also your mind is also to be held prisoner by them.
I feel that they themselves have proven my point, they hold society back.

RE: to; RE: Greg and others | 7:10 p.m. July 15, 2008

Everyone has there agency.

That explains in totality all the probelms in the world.

However, you have you agency You can help with these problems (or atleast not contribute to them).

and let's not over react an hyperventilale, the world is not coming to and end because pollution. that's silly and not even close to reality.

Maybe that's why you are here to see if you will help feed the starving, and those in need, hepl with the problems in the world,

and obey god's commandments.

if we all did that there probably would not be such problems now would there?

Agency can be very tough sometimes.

choices one makes can actually hurt other people.

but choices can also help alleviate the suffering.

Chris Plummer | 7:29 p.m. July 15, 2008

Re Valeeda:
"And by the way, I do not listen to talk radio or even television, for that matter."

I don't think you listen at all.

"I feel that they themselves have proven my point, they hold society back."

I don't think you ever really had a point... maybe it was gays are bad because they don't procreate? It isn't natural? I've seen plenty of examples in the animal world of homosexuality, so your argument is moot.

To re and re Greg and Huh | 7:33 p.m. July 15, 2008

Please tell me why I should listen to your Gods commandments?
Why are your Gods commandments the one's to listen to and all the other Gods words and commandments are wrong?
Please tell me exactly why?
Do you understand how many Gods have been created since the beginning of time?
I just want to know the reason you think your God is better than all the others! Please, please tell me?

Tammy | 7:57 p.m. July 15, 2008

I, too, believe that this universe is structured according to "Natural Law". That is just obvious.
All nature has times and seasons for mating, it isn't just a free-for-all, and we don't see the next generation without all nature tuned into this and supporting this. Homosexuality does not fit into this picture. I just can't see that.
As far as homosexuality "helping" us with overpopulation, I believe "The earth is full and there is enough and to spare" PROVIDED we are all living the United Order, another law of God that seems to mimic nature.
I know that you are all going to hate what I said.IMO those who persist in homosexuality and want to make it normal are not just giving a different opinion, but are rebelling against God and they full well know it.
That is dangerous ground to be on, and all I can say is, I am not going to stand there with you.
Valeeda, although I am a deeply religious person, and apparently you are not, I still see your point.

John Lambert | 8:23 p.m. July 15, 2008

Agki,
You may disagree with Frank's view that God has condemned homosexuality, which I also hold, but your reasoning is unsound.
Latter-day Saints do not have to base their condemnation of homosexuality on the Old Testament or the Bible alone. We have Spencer W. Kimball saying that as long as men had bodies to defile the Lord would condemn homosexuality.
We have the Proclamation on the Family, supported by the whole First Presidency and quorum of the 12. We have President Hinckley's talk at the Christiams Devotional in 2003.
We do not have to seek for ancient precedent to prove that this law is unchanging, we hear the voice of a modern prophet thundering it.
If you were debating with Jews than whether they pick up sticks on the Sabbath might be relevant, but when debating people who believe beyond the Old Testament you have to face up to the fact that where picking corn on the Sabbath when one is starving is allowed, homosexuality is condemned.

John Lambert | 8:41 p.m. July 15, 2008

To Oscar,
The Church does condemn any sexual practice outside of marriage. It also condemns oral sex and anal sex by anyone, althogh for various reasons the last point is rarely brought up.

To Tammy | 8:44 p.m. July 15, 2008

Homosexuality does not fit into the picture?

God created homosexuality in his kingdom, it has exsisted since the beginning of time.
Quit using religious text for something that requires intelligent thought and education.j
Mith and supersition belong in comic books and for people who lack the brains to figure out that unseen people watching us also guide us.
Why don't you just act like a decent human being.

Proud of being Primitive? | 8:45 p.m. July 15, 2008

The Church position on homosexuality is very peculiar. Once again, like when it opposed integration, the Church leadership appears motivated by fear rather than love.

I hope this article and comment thread are archived so future historians can wonder, what were they thinking? I also sincerely hope that none of Brother Overfelt's children or grandchildren turn out to be gay, for he will surely abandon them if they are.

Why are so many Saints proud of being primitive? Where did all this judgment and sexual paranoia come from?

Re: Proud of being Primitive? | 9:21 p.m. July 15, 2008

Why would Brother Overfelt abandon his family members if they should happen to be gay? Many times our family members do things contrary to the teachings of the Gospel, and while we may not approve of their actions, we still love and accept them.

We're proud of following the teachings of Jesus Christ. Because He lived and taught in a time period you consider primitive doesn't mean that His teachings aren't just as valid and important today. In fact, I'd say they were moreso. Back in His day, people actually believed that sexual immorality was a sin. Today, that's considered an outdated and prudish philosophy, and look at the many social ills that have come from this way of thinking. I'll take the Savior's teachings over the philosophies of man any day.

Re: To Tammy | 9:22 p.m. July 15, 2008

God did not create homosexuality in His kingdom, man did.

NIP | 9:38 p.m. July 15, 2008

Re: Proud of being Primitive?

When you say that the LDS church is motivated by fear rather than love, you are partially correct. We greatly fear the moral and ethical de-generation of the fabric of Human Society as a whole due to declining standards of conduct, dress, language and perphaps most important of all the blatant attack on the Family as the basic building block of nations.
To sum up. We beileve that the Family is the basic unit of Society. And further more we beileve in keeping intact that most basic unit at all costs. Studies have shown that families that have family dinner two or more times a week are stronger as a unit and that children in those familes are less likely to drink or use illegal narcotics.

Lyle | 9:40 p.m. July 15, 2008

In the book, "The Homosexual Agenda," Alan Sears and Craig Osten of the Alliance Defense Fund document with numerous examples that the radical gay agenda in America today has become the single most dangerous threat to religious liberty in America today. Judging from the fallout on this thread today I am convinced of that.

They quote Randy Thomas, a former homosexual, who said "As a former homosexual, when I was involved in the 1980's promoting the gay agenda, our only focus was to seek tolerance, whereas today's political activism has moved from true tolerance into political domination and power. It's an amazing thing to watch a group that said they were oppressed become oppressors."

It may be time to suggest legislation that Christians become a protected class and any hatred spewed against them from "Christian-phobes" and anti-religious bigots be threated with identical penalties.

To: Proud of being Primitive? | 9:49 p.m. July 15, 2008

The homosexual position on Christianity is very peculiar. They appear motivated by fear rather than love.

I too hope this article and comment thread are archived so future historians can wonder, what were they thinking? I hope that none of the homosexuals' children or grandchildren turn out to be Christians, for they will surely abandon them if they are. (Woops, homosexuals can't have children and grandchildren...or can they?)

Why are so many homosexuals proud of being primitive? Where did all this judgment and anti-religious paranoia come from?

Lyle | 10:16 p.m. July 15, 2008

"The most serious threat to your religious freedom
The homosexual legal agenda is not about marriage...

The homosexual legal agenda is not about "equal rights."

It is not about "equality."

It is not even, ultimately, about sexuality.

The homosexual legal agenda is nothing less than a calculated effort to enforce unconditional acceptance ï¿½ and even endorsement ï¿½ of behavior that is incredibly harmful both to the individuals that practice it and to our society as a whole. While extolling tolerance for homosexual behavior, advocates also demand intolerance for any who disagree with their views.

Simply put, it is the principal threat to religious freedom in our nation today."

-- Alan Sears in the book "The Homosexual Agenda"

to 8:45 | 10:18 p.m. July 15, 2008

The "Saints" just follow the ward house speak.
These Christian people are not capable of seeing all people of God as the same.
Just keep breeding like rats, judge people who do not think as you do and God will love you

Wow. What ever happened to the human brain development?

s

To Re: Tammy 9:22pm | 10:30 p.m. July 15, 2008

How do you know? Did God send you an email? The ignorance and hate on here are just appalling.

To Valeeda | 10:45 p.m. July 15, 2008

Why would you suspect a group to understand your thinking when they don't even understand the ins and outs of biology, and physiology etc.?

Your point makes sense to me.

Sarah | 10:53 p.m. July 15, 2008

Many of you seem to be mistaking law (the way that sins and crimes are punished) with doctrine (which includes the definitions of sins and crimes). The law was fulfilled when Christ lived on the earth; that means that the punishments for sin, and the way in which certain points were enacted or practiced, changed. The doctrines, including what it is morally right and morally wrong, are ever constant and unchanging. What was a sin in Old Testament times remains a sin today, even if certain practices from that time period are no longer required.

Lies about overpopulation | 11:18 p.m. July 15, 2008

People are the wealth of a nation. The threat of "Overpopulation" is a scare tactic used by radical leftists to push their dangerous agenda (one that promises a decrease in wealth, progress, and humanity). Over 100 years ago, Thomas Malthus theorized that people in our time would be dying of mass starvation and disease because of "overpopulation". The obvious truth is that the human race is far better off now than it was then. Interestingly, the only group with a disproportionate amount of disease is self-described homosexuals. The bottom line: God wants his children to prosper and therefore blesses them with the technology and ability to do so, and He curses the wicked with death and destruction.

Re: 10:30 | 4:57 a.m. July 16, 2008

It's pretty simple. God does not create that which He deems a sin. Everything that's good comes from the Lord, everything that's not does not. He created man, He deemed homosexual behavior a sin, and man disregarded that and acted on those thoughts and feelings anyway. God didn't create homosexuality.

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