Reader comments
Pro-polygamy coalition takes issue with LDS objection to 'fundamentalist'
210 comments | Read story
Annonymous | 6:36 a.m. July 10, 2008
"Fellow Mormons..."? Are they joking?
SSMD | 6:46 a.m. July 10, 2008
Repeat posting to correct for omitted words:
Fray Jumper:
Well said! I, too, am saddened when church members disparage the 19th century saints for faithfully carrying out divinely sanctioned practice, at great difficulty and sacrifice.
Fray Jumper:
Well said! I, too, am saddened when church members disparage the 19th century saints for faithfully carrying out divinely sanctioned practice, at great difficulty and sacrifice.
Joseph | 7:19 a.m. July 10, 2008
Good for the polygamous groups. I was incredulous about people who associated
polygamy with us as a missionary in Colorado. How could people be so ignorant?
Then I moved to Utah and saw polygamists in the grocery store. There is a bit of
a family feud element in all this. Jobu is absolutely right and I'm glad
his comment is up top where everyone will read it. I too, am an active,
mainstream member of the LDS Church.
Comments continue below
metamoracoug | 7:36 a.m. July 10, 2008
I've only read about half of the comments, but it's apparent that most
are missing the point. Because of the way the media has covered the hubbub over
the FLDS, 2/3rds of all individuals surveyed were under a misconception about
the relationship between the LDS church and the FLDS church. I'm confident
that those same individuals harbor no misconceptions about differences between
Methodists, Presbyterians, Catholics, or Jehovahs Witnesses.
Here in central Illinois, that misconception has dire consequences for the LDS church. Even before the FLDS non-sense, there was plenty of anti-Mormon bias. A Lutheran minister, for example, told my son he'd go to hell because he was Mormon. Another church teaches anti-Mormon doctrine as part of their Bible camp. A high school teacher announced in class that Mormons and Nazis were very similar.
Now, however, the misconception that the FLDS and LDS are related is fodder for the misinformed. The missionaries in our ward have been verbally accosted numerous times in recent months, accused of being preachers of polygamy.
The bottom line is that the LDS church is simply trying to make a clear distinction between itself and another religious entity, trying to remove any confusion or misconception.
Here in central Illinois, that misconception has dire consequences for the LDS church. Even before the FLDS non-sense, there was plenty of anti-Mormon bias. A Lutheran minister, for example, told my son he'd go to hell because he was Mormon. Another church teaches anti-Mormon doctrine as part of their Bible camp. A high school teacher announced in class that Mormons and Nazis were very similar.
Now, however, the misconception that the FLDS and LDS are related is fodder for the misinformed. The missionaries in our ward have been verbally accosted numerous times in recent months, accused of being preachers of polygamy.
The bottom line is that the LDS church is simply trying to make a clear distinction between itself and another religious entity, trying to remove any confusion or misconception.
Paul in MD | 7:39 a.m. July 10, 2008
I'd like to point out a few misconceptions here.
Gordon B Hinckley was quoted by someone earlier as saying fundamentalist Mormon is an erroneous term. That was taken from the Church News, generally considered a vehicle for communicating to the members of the LDS church. So he was telling the LDS members not to use that term, not telling other groups THEY can't use it.
D&C 132 talks about polygamy, yes, but that is not the entire subject of that section. The "true and everlasting covenant of marriage" is temple marriage, not strictly plural marriage.
Official Declaration #1 does not state that it is revelation. However, if you look at it on the LDS Web site, you'll find excerpts from talks by Wilford Woodruff regarding the Manifesto (as it is called), stating quite clearly that the origins of the declaration are rooted in revelation concerning the events of the day and questions regarding the problems facing the church over plural marriage.
Elder Cook's statements are directed primarily at the media, asking them to make a distinction in their reporting between the LDS and FLDS churches.
Gordon B Hinckley was quoted by someone earlier as saying fundamentalist Mormon is an erroneous term. That was taken from the Church News, generally considered a vehicle for communicating to the members of the LDS church. So he was telling the LDS members not to use that term, not telling other groups THEY can't use it.
D&C 132 talks about polygamy, yes, but that is not the entire subject of that section. The "true and everlasting covenant of marriage" is temple marriage, not strictly plural marriage.
Official Declaration #1 does not state that it is revelation. However, if you look at it on the LDS Web site, you'll find excerpts from talks by Wilford Woodruff regarding the Manifesto (as it is called), stating quite clearly that the origins of the declaration are rooted in revelation concerning the events of the day and questions regarding the problems facing the church over plural marriage.
Elder Cook's statements are directed primarily at the media, asking them to make a distinction in their reporting between the LDS and FLDS churches.
Orthodox Mormon? | 7:53 a.m. July 10, 2008
Wouldn't the "orthodox mormons" be those that still practice
polygamy - not those that changed away from it?
Commentors | 7:55 a.m. July 10, 2008
I have a great idea for the Deseret News... Just report on BYU-Utah sports, or
the LDS church...
My market research (seeing which articles get the best response) suggests that a newspaper dealing entirely of these two subjects would still illicet the same response.
My market research (seeing which articles get the best response) suggests that a newspaper dealing entirely of these two subjects would still illicet the same response.
Steve | 7:57 a.m. July 10, 2008
The USPTO rejected the LDS Church's application for a trademark on
"Mormon" for "religious services." Presumably part of the
reason was that many other groups have referred to themselves as Mormons for
over 100 years. It did approve one for "educational services" but it
seems unlikely that religious groups could be seen to be in violation of this
trademark. In other countries it might be different.
The fact is, other groups have called themselves and been called Mormons since Joseph Smith's death (the Strangites come to mind since there are newspaper reports of them referred to as Mormons since at least the 1840s but there are undoubtedly many others). It's interesting that the LDS Church has not wanted to be called the "Mormon Church" but now doesn't want others to be identified as Mormon.
As far as separating the LDS from the FLDS, this of course should be done. But demanding that the FLDS not be called Mormons is a different question.
The term "Mormon fundamentalist" actually originated from LDS Church apostle Mark E. Petersen in the 1940s so LDS apostles have not always objected to this.
The fact is, other groups have called themselves and been called Mormons since Joseph Smith's death (the Strangites come to mind since there are newspaper reports of them referred to as Mormons since at least the 1840s but there are undoubtedly many others). It's interesting that the LDS Church has not wanted to be called the "Mormon Church" but now doesn't want others to be identified as Mormon.
As far as separating the LDS from the FLDS, this of course should be done. But demanding that the FLDS not be called Mormons is a different question.
The term "Mormon fundamentalist" actually originated from LDS Church apostle Mark E. Petersen in the 1940s so LDS apostles have not always objected to this.
To Phillip | 8:15 a.m. July 10, 2008
Two wrongs don't make a right! I see this analogy used alot "Polygamy
must certainly be better than divorce". People that think this way should
realize that all of it is wrong and we need these issues issues separately. We
shouldn't make excuses for bad behavior. We should not have either one.
History often ignored | 8:31 a.m. July 10, 2008
The mainstream LDS church is very concerned with acceptance in todays world.
Distancing themselves from these groups is to be expected. What I've
gotten out of the media reports and the exposure to these groups is a feeling of
connection with my history and roots. Our ancestors are the same, who believed
the same principles and doctrine. Why mine gave up the polygamous lifestyle,
and somehow choose to walk away from wives and children (indeed, my own family
did just this)to be part of the mainstream LDS group has alway left me
uncomfortable with my past. I wonder if I would not have been part of these
media reports if a "distant" ancestor had instead choosen to stay with
his multiple wives he had been "married, sealed, and covenanted" to be
with for eternity. Instead he chose only one of them, and I grew up mainstream,
orthodox LDS many generations later.
The D-News is a source of news | 8:35 a.m. July 10, 2008
The D-News is a source of news, that is why many of us read it (I take the
newspaper). It has some LDS news, but most of what it has is "worldly
news". The subjects that get the most attention are controversial ones,
religion being on of those subjects, hence the comments from many people. The
LDS people can not lay eclsuive claim to the D-News as an LDS paper (yes, I know
who owns it...) it is a fine paper that represents other folks as well who live
here within our communities. BTW, the SL Tribune is much too anti-Mormon for me
to like to read.
to OregonUte | 8:38 a.m. July 10, 2008
Good thing. Did you ever do the math for after-death plural marriage. Not very
promising for you guys.
Re: James | 8:38 a.m. July 10, 2008
If "it is impossible for the 'polygamy' groups to claim any
Apostolic authority," then what happened to the LDS church when Brigham
Young and others after him continued the practice of polygamy?
To the defenders of polygamy: | 8:49 a.m. July 10, 2008
I'm not sure why people often bring up fornication and adultery while
we're discussing polygamy. Of course, human beings do things that others
consider morally wrong. Most of our society rejects adultery...that's why
it is legal grounds for divorce. Many people accept fornication before
marriage--that's true. Part of what makes polygamy so distasteful is that
the husband has pledged himself to one woman when he married her. Once you
enter into a marriage, that is the point when others are supposed to be excluded
from your sexual activities.
Jack | 8:55 a.m. July 10, 2008
To Krudd,
Your name says it all about you. Perhaps you need to get a life and quit nosing around in F lds polygamy. Your name again says it all.
To polygamist,
I'm just wondering as well from reading this blog what normal woman would ever have one of you polygamist, lustful, brainless, deviates?
Your name says it all about you. Perhaps you need to get a life and quit nosing around in F lds polygamy. Your name again says it all.
To polygamist,
I'm just wondering as well from reading this blog what normal woman would ever have one of you polygamist, lustful, brainless, deviates?
Average Joe | 9:46 a.m. July 10, 2008
Either way - both group believe in a con-man and a con-man's desire to
control other people for personal gain.
To; Outsider, From Krudd | 9:47 a.m. July 10, 2008
Outsider,
Touche---
It's a newspaper after all, and anyone can read it.
I don't get people SLAMMING another's faith. no matter who it is. I go into a Christian Chat room and there are many Jew's in there...and people are down right mean to them.
I was raised to get a long with all faiths...to resepct them. I taught my kids the same. I don't have a problem with any faith that teaches peace.
I just think it's ODD when people come in the D.N. just to argure with LDS people cause they don't like us.
I think both sides, can take it to the extreme.
I just don't like religion bashing of any kind.
Hope I didn't offend you or anyone else.
Touche---
It's a newspaper after all, and anyone can read it.
I don't get people SLAMMING another's faith. no matter who it is. I go into a Christian Chat room and there are many Jew's in there...and people are down right mean to them.
I was raised to get a long with all faiths...to resepct them. I taught my kids the same. I don't have a problem with any faith that teaches peace.
I just think it's ODD when people come in the D.N. just to argure with LDS people cause they don't like us.
I think both sides, can take it to the extreme.
I just don't like religion bashing of any kind.
Hope I didn't offend you or anyone else.
Reply to reply to Jacob | 9:54 a.m. July 10, 2008
D & C 132:66 And now as pertaining to this law, verily, verily, I say unto
you, I will reveal more unto you, hereafter; therefore, let this suffice for the
present.
And, to whom will he reveal MORE? ... the prophet or some guy down the block?
For all who want to know who the prophet is just check with your friendly LDS missionaries who will teach you the process
And, to whom will he reveal MORE? ... the prophet or some guy down the block?
For all who want to know who the prophet is just check with your friendly LDS missionaries who will teach you the process
Kevin | 10:05 a.m. July 10, 2008
POLYGAMY IS WRONG! You polygamist men are nothing but pure old adulterers. You
make it even more evil by throwing God in on your heap of corruption. Stop using
God! Stop making up scripture to benefit your evil against women.
Reply to Jacob | 10:26 a.m. July 10, 2008
Wow you really should brush up on your scripture knowledge, it does say that and
everyone knows that is a Mormon Beleif.....
A celestial law of sorts, dont worry all you Mormon women enjoy your husbands in this life cause the next life you will be sharing them...
A celestial law of sorts, dont worry all you Mormon women enjoy your husbands in this life cause the next life you will be sharing them...
Cats | 10:34 a.m. July 10, 2008
For fundamentalists to call themselves "Mormons" is identity theft!
Quit trying to ride on our train. Get off and go your seperate way.
Quit trying to ride on our train. Get off and go your seperate way.
Honestly | 10:43 a.m. July 10, 2008
As I am reading these comments a question comes to my Mind, How many L.D.S.
women reading this blog can honestly say if President Monson received a
revelation tommorow that polygamy should be Practiced again, how many of you
could honestly practice it without having a major problem???
I for one could not.. I think the F.L.D.S. belive they are the true churh because they didnt drop the belief and practice because society as a whole was disgusted by it, I for one believe you cant critisize Warren Jeffs and not Joseph Smith...
I for one could not.. I think the F.L.D.S. belive they are the true churh because they didnt drop the belief and practice because society as a whole was disgusted by it, I for one believe you cant critisize Warren Jeffs and not Joseph Smith...
To Cats | 10:51 a.m. July 10, 2008
WOW Mighty Christ like, Consider that the FLDS, are thinking the same thing
about the L.D.S. Church???
Try and look outside your box, and see another persons opinion...
Try and look outside your box, and see another persons opinion...
Aaron | 10:50 a.m. July 10, 2008
It's possible the FLDS are more like the original founding LDS church in
many ways.
But the fact is that the Lord's church is subject to change through His revelation.
The "FLDS" have simply missed the boat.
But the fact is that the Lord's church is subject to change through His revelation.
The "FLDS" have simply missed the boat.
John Lambert | 10:56 a.m. July 10, 2008
To Jacob at 3:24,
No where in the scriptures does it say a man must have more than one wife to recieve exaltation. In fact, the Pearl of Great Price never mentions plural marriage at all in any way. I would suggest actually reading the scriptures before you try to accuse the church of having a given principal in them.
The Doctrine and Covenants does say that a man must enter into the celestial order of marriage in Doctrine and Covenants section 131. However if you actually read Section 132 it clearly states that a man and a woman who are sealed by one holding authority that is ultimately held by the One Man (then Joseph Smith, currently Thomas S. Monson) can recieve a great many rewards. It is clearly a man and a woman, no requirement there that the man has more than one wife.
The proper analogy is not about Evangelicals who do not even have a centralized structure and Mormons but about the Catholic Church verses breakaway groups like those who ordain women as priests. Should we refer to such dissidents who have been excommunicated as Catholics?
No where in the scriptures does it say a man must have more than one wife to recieve exaltation. In fact, the Pearl of Great Price never mentions plural marriage at all in any way. I would suggest actually reading the scriptures before you try to accuse the church of having a given principal in them.
The Doctrine and Covenants does say that a man must enter into the celestial order of marriage in Doctrine and Covenants section 131. However if you actually read Section 132 it clearly states that a man and a woman who are sealed by one holding authority that is ultimately held by the One Man (then Joseph Smith, currently Thomas S. Monson) can recieve a great many rewards. It is clearly a man and a woman, no requirement there that the man has more than one wife.
The proper analogy is not about Evangelicals who do not even have a centralized structure and Mormons but about the Catholic Church verses breakaway groups like those who ordain women as priests. Should we refer to such dissidents who have been excommunicated as Catholics?
Hellooooo | 10:59 a.m. July 10, 2008
#1 L.D.S. CHurch practiced Polygamy
#2 L.D.S. Church Didnt Pactice Polygamy
#3 L.D.S.Church wont openly address Polygamy in the past
#4 L.D.S.Church teaches polygamy is an eternal principle..
Why are L.D.S. Church members like myself upset when the polygamy is brought up.
We belive its an eternal principle so why are we distancing ourselves and get upset when people want to know about our past, present and future???
#2 L.D.S. Church Didnt Pactice Polygamy
#3 L.D.S.Church wont openly address Polygamy in the past
#4 L.D.S.Church teaches polygamy is an eternal principle..
Why are L.D.S. Church members like myself upset when the polygamy is brought up.
We belive its an eternal principle so why are we distancing ourselves and get upset when people want to know about our past, present and future???
John Lambert | 11:17 a.m. July 10, 2008
To to LB,
You are right that LBs argument was not the best. This is because he chose Methodist and not Episcopalian or Catholic. One would not call a group that had broken from the Episcopalian Church over ordaining homosexuals an "Episcopal Sect" and one would not put a picture of an excommunicated Catholic over St. Peter's in a new report.
Methodism has multiple branches that all have claim to the name. On the other hand there is but one "Catholic Church" and only one "Mormon Church".
In a very real way this cuts to the central doctrine of the groups. To Mormons and Catholics all the authority of God is held within the church, although the Catholics do recognize some baptisms performed by groups outside the church.
In "The Mormon Church" as it is so widely called, only an ordinance performed by one having standing in the church is recognized. Baptisms done by the FLDS and just as invalid as those done by the Catholics, Baptists or anyone else outside the church.
You are right that LBs argument was not the best. This is because he chose Methodist and not Episcopalian or Catholic. One would not call a group that had broken from the Episcopalian Church over ordaining homosexuals an "Episcopal Sect" and one would not put a picture of an excommunicated Catholic over St. Peter's in a new report.
Methodism has multiple branches that all have claim to the name. On the other hand there is but one "Catholic Church" and only one "Mormon Church".
In a very real way this cuts to the central doctrine of the groups. To Mormons and Catholics all the authority of God is held within the church, although the Catholics do recognize some baptisms performed by groups outside the church.
In "The Mormon Church" as it is so widely called, only an ordinance performed by one having standing in the church is recognized. Baptisms done by the FLDS and just as invalid as those done by the Catholics, Baptists or anyone else outside the church.
John Lambert | 11:22 a.m. July 10, 2008
To More Wives Please,
The Official Declaration 1 was a revelation. What exactly it meant at the time is not at issue here. With Joseph F. Smith's Second Manifesto in 1904 the full first presididency and quorum of the 12 issued a revelation ending all plural marriages. Beyond this, it is not a question of historical development. If President Hinckley's statement against polygamy in 1998 General Conference were are only document than polygamy would be unacceptable. The church is lead by continuing revelation.
You may use Mormon as a generic term if you wish. However any examination of newsmedia, encyclopedias and the like will find "Mormon Church" used for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" at every turn. Mormon and Catholic are both used in common speech to refer to a specific church.
The Official Declaration 1 was a revelation. What exactly it meant at the time is not at issue here. With Joseph F. Smith's Second Manifesto in 1904 the full first presididency and quorum of the 12 issued a revelation ending all plural marriages. Beyond this, it is not a question of historical development. If President Hinckley's statement against polygamy in 1998 General Conference were are only document than polygamy would be unacceptable. The church is lead by continuing revelation.
You may use Mormon as a generic term if you wish. However any examination of newsmedia, encyclopedias and the like will find "Mormon Church" used for "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" at every turn. Mormon and Catholic are both used in common speech to refer to a specific church.
entertained | 11:22 a.m. July 10, 2008
Man, this is better than Dilbert.
Seeing clearly | 11:21 a.m. July 10, 2008
>see another persons opinion
I see it, and it's wrong.
I see it, and it's wrong.
John Lambert | 11:25 a.m. July 10, 2008
To Krudd,
You made a major assumption. You assume that the commentors on these boards actually even read the articles on which they comment. In the case of the article on the exellent video clips the church made on LDS members in Texas it was 100% clear that most of the commentators had just glanced at the article, and not even tried to look at the video clips.
Also, with the rise of google and other search engines people can pick a specific article on the Deseret News and read it. Some commentators openly admit that they just came upon the article because of an outside link. Others claim to not know who owns the Deseret News, which I am willing to believe.
I think though we need to be a bit more polite to newcomers on here. If Alma had just told Zeezrom that he was an idiot do you think Zeezrom would have joined the church? Even the most hardened antagonist can experience a change of heart. I think this will only happen if we address their concerns instead of just denigrating them for speaking where we wish they were not.
You made a major assumption. You assume that the commentors on these boards actually even read the articles on which they comment. In the case of the article on the exellent video clips the church made on LDS members in Texas it was 100% clear that most of the commentators had just glanced at the article, and not even tried to look at the video clips.
Also, with the rise of google and other search engines people can pick a specific article on the Deseret News and read it. Some commentators openly admit that they just came upon the article because of an outside link. Others claim to not know who owns the Deseret News, which I am willing to believe.
I think though we need to be a bit more polite to newcomers on here. If Alma had just told Zeezrom that he was an idiot do you think Zeezrom would have joined the church? Even the most hardened antagonist can experience a change of heart. I think this will only happen if we address their concerns instead of just denigrating them for speaking where we wish they were not.
John Lambert | 11:31 a.m. July 10, 2008
To the commentor at 6:48,
Maybe you society has selective upsetness. In my society, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, adultery is adultery whether one claims it is marriage or not and either case can lead to excommunication. It may be slightly more likely in cases of marriage claimed, but this is only because the person is in apostasy by advocating a doctine contrary to the teachings of the church as well as acting contrary to its teachings.
Maybe you society has selective upsetness. In my society, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, adultery is adultery whether one claims it is marriage or not and either case can lead to excommunication. It may be slightly more likely in cases of marriage claimed, but this is only because the person is in apostasy by advocating a doctine contrary to the teachings of the church as well as acting contrary to its teachings.
Obama Republican | 11:34 a.m. July 10, 2008
Ok, I try not to comment on Religion but this one is funny. The Statement says
there is NO conection to the LDS church. That is very true, but there are
similarities.
Both use the BOM, DC, JST, both have 12 apos, FP, both claim the same Preisthood Authority. Both believe in temple marriage for enterity, both have a sacrament using bread and water.
The list goes on and on and on.
If they can not call themselves Fund Mormons we should stop calling ourselves Christians.
I am a firm believer of all media attention can lead to good things. I know personally 3 people who had to find out the other side of the story after seeing the GOdmakers and are now members.
Truth will win out!
Both use the BOM, DC, JST, both have 12 apos, FP, both claim the same Preisthood Authority. Both believe in temple marriage for enterity, both have a sacrament using bread and water.
The list goes on and on and on.
If they can not call themselves Fund Mormons we should stop calling ourselves Christians.
I am a firm believer of all media attention can lead to good things. I know personally 3 people who had to find out the other side of the story after seeing the GOdmakers and are now members.
Truth will win out!
John Lambert | 11:35 a.m. July 10, 2008
To Much Ignorance,
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob practiced authorized polygamy. Those who practice it today have no authorization and are practicing adultery.
I will not condemn Muslim and African polygamists as harshly because they have different reasons for doing it. However, I will condemn all those who try to claim their polygamy based on Joseph Smith as either adulterers and apostates or people who like the Lamanites of old fell because of the false traditions of their fathers.
However, I would say that the FLDS and other polygamist groups in Utah fit more the mold of the Nephites Jacob preached to. They will also find that many of the people they condemn for having dark skin will be "whiter" (not meaning skin color, but how close they have lived to the commandments) at the judgement bar of God than they will be.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob practiced authorized polygamy. Those who practice it today have no authorization and are practicing adultery.
I will not condemn Muslim and African polygamists as harshly because they have different reasons for doing it. However, I will condemn all those who try to claim their polygamy based on Joseph Smith as either adulterers and apostates or people who like the Lamanites of old fell because of the false traditions of their fathers.
However, I would say that the FLDS and other polygamist groups in Utah fit more the mold of the Nephites Jacob preached to. They will also find that many of the people they condemn for having dark skin will be "whiter" (not meaning skin color, but how close they have lived to the commandments) at the judgement bar of God than they will be.
Some people can't | 11:40 a.m. July 10, 2008
admit to mistakes even when it's starring them in the eye! It is
hypocritical for those of the LDS faith to condemn polygamy because some of
their relatives and leaders used to practice it. What needs to take place is to
admit a mistake and move on. This is how everyone learns....they make a
mistake, they admit they were wrong and then they change. It doesn't work
to change behavior and then claim that it wasn't wrong. Not many
intelligent people believe that it is "practiced in heaven" either.
If some of you believe that please do it in private and stop putting your
ridiculous beliefs on other people. Polygamy was wrong, it is wrong and it will
always be wrong. Admit it and move on.
John Lambert | 11:42 a.m. July 10, 2008
To Bruce,
No one has brought up the AUB until you did. The only reason I like the AUB is because alot of the hate filled people who disliked the fact that President Kimball had recieved a revelation telling us to ordaine every worthy man regardless of race or color left and went to it. The church was freed of a good amount of dead wieght people who had substituted the false God of race superiority for the true God Jesus Christ, who atoned for the sins of all mankind.
By the way, how is the AUB doing at fulfilling Jesus' command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature? The LDS Church has a long way to go, but President Monson and others are trying to get us to achieve it, but we have to step up the action ourselves.
No one has brought up the AUB until you did. The only reason I like the AUB is because alot of the hate filled people who disliked the fact that President Kimball had recieved a revelation telling us to ordaine every worthy man regardless of race or color left and went to it. The church was freed of a good amount of dead wieght people who had substituted the false God of race superiority for the true God Jesus Christ, who atoned for the sins of all mankind.
By the way, how is the AUB doing at fulfilling Jesus' command to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature? The LDS Church has a long way to go, but President Monson and others are trying to get us to achieve it, but we have to step up the action ourselves.
John Lambert | 11:46 a.m. July 10, 2008
To Philipp,
Have you never heard about men "repenting from afar" and having their wives reassined? What about Elisa Wall and here divorce from her first husband? Also, I would advise reading Elder Oaks talk where he speaks of the ills that come to modern societies that do not allow divorce.
Divorce is not a good thing. However, it is better than having women remain in abusive relationships.
Have you never heard about men "repenting from afar" and having their wives reassined? What about Elisa Wall and here divorce from her first husband? Also, I would advise reading Elder Oaks talk where he speaks of the ills that come to modern societies that do not allow divorce.
Divorce is not a good thing. However, it is better than having women remain in abusive relationships.
Dan | 12:00 p.m. July 10, 2008
There has never been a revelation for polygamy. Only in the minds of men who
crave more sex.
John Lambert | 12:03 p.m. July 10, 2008
To to be or not to be Mormon,
You are mistaken. The LDS Church excommunicated the various polygamists starting about 1910 and crescendoing with the use of test oaths in the early 1930s.
For years these excommunicated groups did not form a church. Even when they broke into two groups in the 1950s they did not claim to be a church. The FLDS church did not organize until 1991.
While the Community of Christ and other groups that claim differences of succession after Joseph Smith do have in some ways a claime to being as legitimate as the LDS Church (I believe that Joseph Smith gave the authority to the apostles and this is how it was then passed down, however it does at some point largely boil down to belief) the FLDS clearly emerge from a group of people who were excommunicated by the church. Even at that they take years to coalesce into one organization, and in fact they never do, with multiple groups always existing.
You are mistaken. The LDS Church excommunicated the various polygamists starting about 1910 and crescendoing with the use of test oaths in the early 1930s.
For years these excommunicated groups did not form a church. Even when they broke into two groups in the 1950s they did not claim to be a church. The FLDS church did not organize until 1991.
While the Community of Christ and other groups that claim differences of succession after Joseph Smith do have in some ways a claime to being as legitimate as the LDS Church (I believe that Joseph Smith gave the authority to the apostles and this is how it was then passed down, however it does at some point largely boil down to belief) the FLDS clearly emerge from a group of people who were excommunicated by the church. Even at that they take years to coalesce into one organization, and in fact they never do, with multiple groups always existing.
John Lambert | 12:09 p.m. July 10, 2008
To to Rich,
I do not think very many believing LDS people have called polygamists "mindless followers". That generally comes from the likes of John Krakauer who want to use polygamy as a stick to hit the LDS Church.
Elder Cook clearly stated that he was not attacking anyone for what they believe.
One more thing. We have added a subtitle to the Book of Mormon. It is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ".
I do not think very many believing LDS people have called polygamists "mindless followers". That generally comes from the likes of John Krakauer who want to use polygamy as a stick to hit the LDS Church.
Elder Cook clearly stated that he was not attacking anyone for what they believe.
One more thing. We have added a subtitle to the Book of Mormon. It is "Another Testament of Jesus Christ".
The Polygamy Hoax! | 12:17 p.m. July 10, 2008
My ancestors practiced polygamy, and I think these people were misled, and the
women were not happy women. I have at least 12 polygamist ancestors, I have
never once heard that it was wonderful and delightful. Give it a break! This was
set up in the name of religion to benefit men and not women. Do you men think
that you are the only ones who deserver pleasure and happiness? Well, according
to you jokers on here it is.... Get a life!
John Lambert | 12:22 p.m. July 10, 2008
To Some people can't,
Polygamy is only right when it is authorized by the Lord. Was it right for Nephi to kill Laban?
In some ways I wish people would face up to polygamy more. However this will only be possible once we are content to say "I do not understand the reasons polygamy was brought into existence". There is some validity to the argument all laws had to be lived, but that does not explain why it had to last for 50 or more years.
I think what needs to happen is an admission that we do not know all the answers. On the other hand I wish that church members would stop making stupid jokes about polygamy.
Polygamy is only right when it is authorized by the Lord. Was it right for Nephi to kill Laban?
In some ways I wish people would face up to polygamy more. However this will only be possible once we are content to say "I do not understand the reasons polygamy was brought into existence". There is some validity to the argument all laws had to be lived, but that does not explain why it had to last for 50 or more years.
I think what needs to happen is an admission that we do not know all the answers. On the other hand I wish that church members would stop making stupid jokes about polygamy.
John Lambert | 12:26 p.m. July 10, 2008
To Obama Republican,
The FLDS do not have a first presidency or twelve apostles.
As far as I know the FLDS believe the Joseph Smith Translation is inauthentic. They also reject Official Declaration 2.
Another difference is that the LDS will peform sealings outside of temples currently. Sealings done outside of temples in the past are in some cases seen as legitimate, but no current sealing of that kind is authorized. The FLDS do not have a current temple, and so perform their sealings outside the temple.
The FLDS do not have a first presidency or twelve apostles.
As far as I know the FLDS believe the Joseph Smith Translation is inauthentic. They also reject Official Declaration 2.
Another difference is that the LDS will peform sealings outside of temples currently. Sealings done outside of temples in the past are in some cases seen as legitimate, but no current sealing of that kind is authorized. The FLDS do not have a current temple, and so perform their sealings outside the temple.
Poster | 12:59 p.m. July 10, 2008
And also, the trained, indoctrinated response that it was "acceptable"
in the past to marry much younger girls - not so. Census data from the time has
the average age of marriage for a woman at 20. If someone married around the
age of 16, it was a scandal just as it it today (and that singly - no such thing
as plural in truth - involving an equivalently-aged young man). Armies entered
Utah as a sign of the public outrage with this act, and current members try to
overcome their instinctual moral disgust through conditioning, these rote
answers, and fear of reprisal and loss of their current society and past. It
takes a strong person to realize their ancestors are simply a tiny group in a
tiny locale led by a single man (who misused his power and hid behind a
"sacred" facade). The multi-million dollar PR machine ensures a flood
of sanitized media to create this illusion of "majority" power. From
the rest of the world's perspective, it is a creation of wealth and
control. I feel sadness for those still trapped in this unbearable
psychological control and hope a greater perspective can come with time.
Authorized by the LORD? | 1:00 p.m. July 10, 2008
OH, come on! Who's ever going to believe that kind of polygamy baloney. OF
COURSE, ONLY MEN, WHO ELSE? There we go again using god for something he NEVER
Authorized'''DREAM ON!
RLDS | 1:01 p.m. July 10, 2008
The fact is, the only real Mormons are those of the Fundamentalist RLDS Church.
I didn't mistype, I wrote RLDS. The great thing about being RLDS is that
you can be a fundamentalist and it has nothing to do with polygamy or the like.
RLDS TRUTH | 1:24 p.m. July 10, 2008
RE: RLDS
You are correct, and Emma Smith new the truth and she has been scorned by the other LDS churches ever since. Brigham Young couldn't have his way with Emma's mind or money and couldn't control her so he blackened her name.
You are correct, and Emma Smith new the truth and she has been scorned by the other LDS churches ever since. Brigham Young couldn't have his way with Emma's mind or money and couldn't control her so he blackened her name.
Poster | 1:36 p.m. July 10, 2008
I see "monitored" here means censored - my two other posts reiterating
the same basic tenor of the one posted have not been posted. The fact that this
exists (and not "after-the-fact" once persons have complained of any
improper post) is reflective of the same "controlling" society named
in my posts and responsible for this crime about which this article addresses
(polygamy)...guess I need to return to the Tribune where thoughts are allowed?
More than likely....
Doug Childs | 1:47 p.m. July 10, 2008
I find it fascinating that the Mormon-owned and -operated KSL and Deseret News
refer to polygamist leaders as "so-called prophets," yet they make no
such distinction with their own leaders. Don't you?
Poster | 1:55 p.m. July 10, 2008
Heartened by the inclusion of the censor complaint post, may I now reiterate for
the third time the rote responses that are trained: The "helping
widows" disproved by census data that teenagers were the greatest
percentage involved, "greater number of women" also disproved by same.
The very fact that these are brought up without fail shows the trained nature
of the organization (providing the questions AND the answers). Can it be posted
now (although lacking in a basic quote from church leaders, perhaps the censor
found it too convincing). I don't mean to be forward, but these are simply
basic facts, and to censored is the same "head in the ground"
condition that I feel sadly others must suffer by this conditioning. If this is
not posted, do you think you "win"? Acutally, you lose, because
reality and truth will end up somewhere else (not that I am the font of it, just
stating and quoting facts). You create your own controlled, closed
society...and I must emphasize nothing offensive was said.
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Related content
- High school girls basketball: Top 20 1:40 a.m.
- High school swimming rankings 1:28 a.m.
- High school girls basketball rankings 1:19 a.m.
- High school boys basketball rankings 1:00 a.m.
- Preps of the week 12:49 a.m.
- Y. volleyball beats UVU 12:46 a.m.
- Sports on the air 12:43 a.m.
- Utah Jazz: Game at a glance 12:40 a.m.
- Williams' late jumper tops Spurs 12:34 a.m.
- Revive full food tax? 12:19 a.m.
- Cougars going back to Vegas
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil
- Witness: Mitchell stalked victims
- TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl
- Y. profs: Beck not all-knowing
- Bring the true spirit of Christmas
- Utes excited to go to San Diego
- BYU professor remembered
- Winter weather is here to stay
- TCU's BCS game missing something
- Y. profs: Beck not all-knowing
261 - TCU to play Boise in Fiesta Bowl203
- Letters: Global warming a lie156
- Cougars going back to Vegas147
- Utah/BYU rivalry can be more civil134
- George lost in rivalry hatefest119
- Ed Smart 'appalled' at testimony100
- Harpring's NBA career is over96
- Utahns want health care reform bills78
- Utes excited to go to San Diego75
For the latest news in the health care debate and how it affects you...
Amazon.com, Target.com, Sears.com, Walmart.com, Kmart.com and...
Latest comments
When Boozer was shooting the free throws, why Sloan didn't substitute Mathew...
actions, I will be forced to be accountable for them. I refuse. I am an...
What's with the Utah fans flashing the double L sign?
@mark: So Sam da Ham... you were just making it up?" I'm a climate...
"I have no idea why BYU fans are talking smack about bowl opponents. Even if...
You say to "quit whining and play somebody." Isn't that what everyone is...
Reading these comments, I start wondering-- Whatever happened to faith? Why...
All those numbers when all you reall need to know is that BYU has beat Utah...
All thos numbers when all you reall need to know is that BYU has beat Utah...
So Sam da Ham, when you said this: "Not so. Al Gore is poised to make...
Advertisements