Deseret News | The case of the anti-Mormons

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The case of the anti-Mormons

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Face facts.... | 10:49 p.m. July 3, 2008

Not everyone in the world will ever agree! Your numbers are small compared to the billions of people in the world. If you respect their beliefs without telling them they have to find "the truth" within your religion, they will mostly respect you. You can even believe in your minds that you are the only correct ones; just know that many will never agree. It is wonderful that you try and help people in need, but it is not wonderful to push beliefs on people. I'm not going to tell you my beliefs because you would try to disagree. Just know that it is my right to believe in them and believe in the God that I do. I do not wish to have your beliefs in my life and I believe with all my heart that I have the spirit of God in my life.

Foolish games | 10:48 p.m. July 3, 2008

Good point MORE SALT

Polygamy could be described in much the same way. A man cannot feel the hurt that a women could feel in that kind of relationship, unless of course a man first of all would become a plural husband to his wife and suffer in the same humiliations in the same way as a women. Perhaps then he could gain more respect for a womens feeling and know exactly how she feels.
NOW! please don't all you pro-polygamy guys come on here preaching and telling me-- BUT if it was done in the right spirit... malarkey! You fellows are blind to the truth and facts of feelings of another as long as you are getting your sex, and justify yourselves and all your sex crimes by saying it came from God.

Anonymous | 10:50 p.m. July 3, 2008

I will give you a definition of a testimony. A testimony is an LDS feeling of spiritual arrogance and self-delusional pride, achieved by believing one has worked harder than others to obtain special, secret insights into God and His truths, but in actuality it is a gross hubris that results in their effectively putting their hands over their mouths, ears, and eyes and chanting "I know the Church is true..." repeatedly while they try to see, hear, and speak no evil--like a bunch of trained monkeys following their ringmaster in Salt Lake City. They say it is like describing the taste of salt in order to put the experience beyond rational discourse so they don't have to defend it. This way they can tell you you have to experience it yourself, and if you experience anything contrary to what the Church teaches, well then you got the WRONG experience! The bottom line is you will know you, too, have gained a testimony when you become one of the drones and give your life to the Church. Funny thing is, radical Islam uses the same technique to recruit suicide bombers. Reverend Jones used the same technique to recruit for Jonestown.

Comments continue below

Trust Me | 10:54 p.m. July 3, 2008

To: Trust Me | 10:44 p.m.,

So did I. The Church is not what it claims to be. But the Gospel of Jesus Christ IS what it claims to be.

Re: Anonymous @ 2:59 | 10:54 p.m. July 3, 2008

Dude!, (you've got to be a guy...) you are rude, you know that?

"Tucson" was simply saying that where she lives that that there is currently quite a bit of anti-LDS activity. You know, kind of like there is on this message board now.....

Hey, Theron! | 10:55 p.m. July 3, 2008

Come on, amigo! You didn't answer my questions...

Why, or how, was it a good decision to leave the church that taught you how to listen to the Holy Spirit?

And, if your answer is, "I found more truth elsewhere", then tell us what that church is.

While I appreciate your scriputres (and, I agree with them wholeheartedly) you didn't answer my questions.

I'm waiting....

To: Anonymouse | 10:59 p.m. July 3, 2008

In The Book of Mormon, Abinadi was a man of unwavering courage who stood for truth when it was unpopular to do so. As he courageously called the people to repentance, he knew his own life was in jeopardy. In your mindï¿½s eye, you can see the riveting scene of Abinadi, who has just had the death sentence pronounced upon him. He had an opportunity to save himself by denying his faith and testimony, but instead he fearlessly proclaimed, ï¿½I say unto you, I will not recall the words which I have spoken unto you concerning this people, for they are true."

Many of us say today that Jesus Christ is our Savior. He was and is the Son of the Almighty. He lives and He loves us. The Lord has said: ï¿½Therefore, fear not, little flock; do good; let earth and hell combine against you, for if ye are built upon my rock, they cannot prevail. ï¿½ Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.ï¿½

Re: Face Facts | 10:59 p.m. July 3, 2008

I don't "push" my relious beliefs. I simply offer them, or share them, with others who I think might be interested in them.

If they are, then I share more. If they aren't, I don't share more.

See?, that wasn't so complicated or evil now, was it?

Re: "Foolish Games" | 11:05 p.m. July 3, 2008

Hmmmm....you said that a man in a polygamous relationship cannot experience the pain that a woman can in that kind of marriage.

So you think that a man in a polygamous marriage can't be hurt?

I disagree.

I'm in a marriage right now (nope, only one wife) and trust me, babe, sometimes I want to simply cease to exist. (I like to think that my marriage is like the stock market; mostly heading uphill). But, I digress!

Anyway, my point is that you're quite short-sighted to think that a man can not be emotionally, deeply wounded in a pologymous marriage.

We're all human. We can all be hurt.

Theron | 11:14 p.m. July 3, 2008

To Hey, Theron! | 10:55 p.m.

I never said the Church taught me how to listen to the Spirit. I said it was within that context that I learned how to listen to the Spirit. Big difference. As I served a mission, became educated, etc. I experienced the same Spirit in many other Churches and religions. The Church has no patent or copyright on the Spirit, as if they could own God or something.

Is your good-hearted, Christian heart now satisfied?

It Seems To Me.... | 11:13 p.m. July 3, 2008

that there is quite a bit of confusion on these message boards over where LDS people (and it seems particularly pointed at LDS men) stand in relation to polygamy.

I think, from reading these comments, that many of those who are not LDS think that because faithful LDS members say "polygamy wasn't bad" that that means that LDS members (and LDS men in particular) want polygamy to be practiced right now. Some might want that, but that doesn't mean that all LDS members want that or even that that is what will happen.

Knowing LDS members as I do, I'm certain that 99% of the LDS people who say "polygamy wasn't an evil practice in early LDS church days" simply mean the doctrine at the time was not from the devil. And that's it.

I don't know whether to laugh or to cry at the irrational fears of some of the posters on this board who think that LDS men are pining for the return of polygamy RIGHT NOW, BABY!

"Sex fiends", my pa-toot!

Most of us, like most married non-Mormons, are struggling just keeping one spouse happy!

My Goodness | 11:18 p.m. July 3, 2008

A Japanese scholar each evening talked with workmen from a factory. One night he told the men that he would bring them something of beauty on the morrow. One man asked the scholar to bring him a rose; another asked for a branch; and the third requested a lily. The next evening he handed out the rose, the branch, and the lily. ï¿½There is a thorn on my rose,ï¿½ said the first man. The second complained, ï¿½There is a dead leaf on my branch.ï¿½ ï¿½There is a clump of dirt on my lily,ï¿½ cried the third. The scholar took all his gifts back and said, ï¿½You had a beautiful rose and saw only the thorn; you had a lovely green branch and saw only the dead leaf; and on the glorious lily you saw only the clump of dirt.ï¿½

A scripture says it this way: ï¿½Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamor, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: ï¿½And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christï¿½s sake hath forgiven you.ï¿½ (Eph. 4:31ï¿½32.)

Anonymous | 11:26 p.m. July 3, 2008

Come on, Theron, you're talking in circles. Let me refresh your memory. At 9:45AM on July 2nd, you said, quote:

"For me, the LDS CHURCH provided the CONTEXT for my family and community life WITHIN which I learned to listen to the voice of the Spirit."

So, now you're going to say that the the listening to and practicing of LDS doctrines didn't help you learn how to listen to the Holy Spirit's direction?

I'm not an Einstein, but I know when someone is back-pedaling....

Look, I'm not trying to be mean or treat you like Perry Mason. It's just that your earlier post acknowledged that the LDS church did something good for you and when you look at it, it doesn't make sense that you left, since you can't even answer what "better" church you found.

If you had found one, being the good Christian that you clain to be, you would have surely shared it with us all, right?

To: Janice | 11:32 p.m. July 3, 2008

Plural marriage is not essential to salvation or exaltation. Nephi and his people were denied the power to have more than one wife and yet they could gain every blessing in eternity that the Lord ever offered to any people. In our day, the Lord summarized by revelation the whole doctrine of exaltation and predicated it upon the marriage of one man to one woman. (D. & C. 132:1-28.)

Theron | 11:35 p.m. July 3, 2008

Yes, I can see your heart has real Christian intent. I thought you Real Active Mormons believed that contention was of the devil!

There is no backpedaling. I said exactly what I meant. I never said that "listening to and practicing of LDS doctrines" helped me listen to the Spirit. (and you are right, you are no Einstein. You seem to barely qualify as a college graduate, if that.)

Theron, It's Me... | 11:34 p.m. July 3, 2008

Yes, I definitely agree with you that the LDS church does not have a patent or a copyright on being able to feel the Holy Ghost.

Isn't it wonderful that there is "truth", or things to be pleased with, in churches outside of the LDS church? For me to say "no", would mean that as an LDS person I wish spiritual darkness upon all those who are not LDS, but I don't. I'm happy for their happiness and peace.

However...

God and His spirit can only be where truth and goodness are. I know you will agree with me on that. So, it stands to reason that where there is "the most" truth and goodness, there you will find God "the most".

No, I'm not trying to trivialize the pursuit of God or turn it into a child's game. But it is a valid question; where can one find God "the most"?

The Caravan Moves On! | 11:37 p.m. July 3, 2008

Good night, everyone!

Theron | 11:42 p.m. July 3, 2008

Theron, It's Me... | 11:34 p.m.

"The Most"? Now it is about quantity? Is that really what the LDS Church claims? That it has MORE God than other Churches? That has never been what I was taught or believed when I was an active LDS. The kingdom of God is not about quantity, it is about quality. The qualities and attributes of God are more like something with which a person's heart resonates. If you want to try to quantify those resonations, well then I would have to answer that my heart resonates MUCH more frequently and poignantly AWAY from the 3-hour block meetings and the callings and all the other hyperactivity the Church pushes onto people.

FYI Janice | 11:45 p.m. July 3, 2008

Polygamy (Plural Marriage)

The family is ordained of God. Marriage between man and woman is essential to His eternal plan. At certain times and for His specific purposes, God, through His prophets, has directed the practice of plural marriage (sometimes called polygamy), which means one man having more than one living wife at the same time. In obedience to direction from God, Latter-day Saints followed this practice for about 50 years during the 1800s but officially ceased the practice of such marriages after the Manifesto was issued by President Woodruff in 1890. Since that time, plural marriage has not been approved by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and any member adopting this practice is subject to losing his or her membership in the Church.

Lynn | 11:51 p.m. July 3, 2008

Oh! Re: FYI, It was better they pretended to get along so they all looked like the perfect LDS family. My polygamy ancestors did the very same thing. LDS families today still try to look like the most outstanding family in each ward. Don't you see? It's all an act. I grew up LDS and saw the phony crying testimonies and my family and others with the holier than thou and better than your family routine. Things haven't changed a bit. Polygamy was creepy for at least 6 known ancestors of mine who openly spoke out about their polygamy atrocities and horrors. GeezZZZ man, give it a break.

FYI II | 11:53 p.m. July 3, 2008

(Gordon B. Hinckley 1998) I wish to state categorically that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy. They are not members of this Church. Most of them have never been members. They are in violation of the civil law. They know they are in violation of the law. They are subject to its penalties. The Church, of course, has no jurisdiction whatever in this matter. If any of our members are found to be practicing plural marriage, they are excommunicated, the most serious penalty the Church can impose. Not only are those so involved in direct violation of the civil law, they are in violation of the law of this Church. More than a century ago God clearly revealed unto His prophet Wilford Woodruff that the practice of plural marriage should be discontinued, which means that it is now against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows polygamy, the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage.

Sarah | 2:37 a.m. July 4, 2008

I never realized how widespread general apostasy in the Church was until I started reading these boards. We don't get to just disregard parts of the religion because we don't personally like them, and we don't get to pick and choose which commandments we want to follow. That's not how it works. You don't get to go to Heavenly Father and say, "I don't really want to live the law of chastity anymore, but I still want all the blessings I'd get if I DID keep it, okay?" Either it's all true, or it's not. Pick which side you're on and stop hemming and hawing. It's the Lord's church, not yours.

Sharon in Tennessee | 5:39 a.m. July 4, 2008

I challenge all of you who have blogged in, or will read this and plan to blog or discuss this.....
Get REAL, stop all your gossip, emotions or childish reactions to PEOPLE or human opinions...
it is a simple solution to what you should think:
GET DOWN ON YOUR KNEES, humbly and sincerely ask God DIRECTLY, YOURSELF...about any or all of these issues......and especially the truthfullness of the LDS church, Book of Mormon and yes, even God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost themselves.
ASK AND YE SHALL RECEIVE. Then YOU WILL KNOW the truth and the truth will make you free...of all the crazy gossip and lies or human opinion.
BEST way to find out. God's direct word..not mans.
I did. It works. Always works. On any subject.
Then you will never be confused or lied to !!!!
God Bless you all. Go for it !!!!

To Sharon in Tennesses | 9:41 a.m. July 4, 2008

That's the problem in the Church. We're always told to ask God, but if someone doesn't get an answer, or gets a different answer then THEY are WRONG! You claim it always works. But it DIDN'T work for me. And now everyone else keeps telling me that I'M WRONG! Why would God make it so difficult?

That's because there is | 10:30 a.m. July 4, 2008

No one answer. "God" is many things to different people.

Stan | 10:33 a.m. July 4, 2008

Grumble, grumble, grumble! All you people do is grumble! Is this how you spend each of your everyday lives?... Grumble grumble grumble. I don't care what religion it is, you people just keep grumbling... Member, against nonmember, inactive against semi inactive, you people all just love to keep grumbling.

Friday fights?

My ancestors luckily | 10:33 a.m. July 4, 2008

saw the error of their ways by stopping their practice of polygamy! After almost destroying their family they stopped and did much better. Don't believe all of the success stories you hear...I've studied and found all the sadness. What a ridiculous thing it was!

Re:TO same old same old | 11:10 a.m. July 4, 2008

Have you ever heard of a man whose name was Celsus. He was a Roman physician and philosopher who made many attacks against the Christian church of his days. Many of his accusations are very strikingly familiar to what anti-Mormons are saying about the LDS Church today. One thing he wrote about the Christians was that Christ was a charlatan who gathered a group of 12 unlearned and ignorant followers and deceived the people with magic that he had learned from the Egyptians. Among other things, he scoffed at the idea that Christians believed in a God who was embodied. That when Christians were asked by those not of their faith to explain their beliefs they would reply not to question it only have faith.

Learned Romans like Caecilius, Celsus, Pliny, and Tacitus were convinced that the Christians kept their doctrines and ordinances secret because they were ashamed of them; they note that this secrecy only causes misunderstanding and arouses the worst suspicions and wildest speculations (Origen, Against Celsus I, 7, and 12, and 14, in PG 11:668, 677, 681; Tatian, Oratio adversus Graecos (Oration to the Greeks) 27, in PG 6:864-65. )

Mutual Respect to all | 11:12 a.m. July 4, 2008

If you are a member of the LDS Church, and happy in it, that is your choice, and your right.

If you are a member of the LDS Church, and unhappy in it, you have a choice to make, and that is your right.

If you are an ex-member of the LDS Church, and are happy about it, then you made your choice, and that is your right.

If you are an ex-member of the LDS Church, and are unahppy about it, then you have a choice to make, and that is your right.

If you are not a member of the LDS Church, and are happy about it, then you have made your choice.

Whatever your choice has been, or will be, it is your individual choice, and your right to make that choice.

Whatever the choice you have made, you should not choose to preach to, try and persuade, dissuade to your point of view, or attack anyone else for their views or opinions, which seems to be a popular exercise for so many on this site.

The main comments solely about this news article seems to have vanished way back on page 1 of comments!

Dan | 11:15 a.m. July 4, 2008

You and me both. My ancestors hated polygamy. Two of my g, g, g, grandfathers wives dumped him and left him and the church permanently, and found new husbands who wanted just one wife. They as well headed back east where there nonmember families were. Mormonism was too much for some of the pioneer women, and some were lucky enough to get out of polygamy and leave the LDS church permanently. It was a bit easier to leave the LDS church if you didn't have a bunch of kids.

Anonymous | 11:31 a.m. July 4, 2008

To Mutual Respect,

Thank you for being a hypocrite. You say "you should not choose to preach to, try and persuade, dissuade to your point of view, or attack anyone else for their views or opinions," and then you do exactly that.

Hypocrite. Good job.

Ron M. | 11:40 a.m. July 4, 2008

I agree, its everyones choice to believe the way they choose too, and not for someone else to dictate how they think someone else should be living and believe. I get a little fed-up and find it quite tiresome hearing all the name calling, and people being called THE ANTI if they don't agree with LDS. So who is the real anti?

I personally think like others on this post that polygamy is vile and extremely disrespectful of womens feelings. It's definitely not for me and my family. My family finds polygamist men extremely disgusting to say the very least! We do not believe!

Statman | 12:05 p.m. July 4, 2008

Sharon,

You are spewing the same lame Mormon rhetoric.

People who ask God whether or not this book (Female Life Among the Mormons) is true, would not get some burning in the bosom.

I would venture to say that, of the 6,707,811,444 people on the earth, quite a few pray to God. They ask Him directly for a number of things. But still millions of them die despite what they asked of God. Millions of them are murdered, die of disease, or have horrible accidents. Asking God directly does not help most of them.

Of the 13,193,999 members of record, only about 4,354,019 are active worldwide, leaving the other 8,839,979 having failed to receive an answer in some way shape or form.

That means only about 6 onehundreths of 1% seem to be getting the "right" answers!

You have quite the imagination. Good luck with that.

Well ,Duh? | 12:48 p.m. July 4, 2008

Hey Starman! Were you talking to me?

zoar | 12:55 p.m. July 4, 2008

People here posting about polygamy in general are very naive about the subject. Had they done their research they would see that the polygamy practices that the news media report about are an abomination compared to what 19th century LDS were practicing. For one thing, you could not force a woman into polygamy, you could not threaten them with going to hell if they did not obey their husbands and thirdly, they were free to leave the relationship anytime they felt like. Many polygamous women loved their sister wives dearly As to child brides, Brigham Young expressly instructed the men to leave the children alone.

The leaders of the Church back then taught that only the most righteous Latter-Day Saints who had the Spirit were worthy of plural marriage. Now contrast all that with what you see going on today. This is the result of men going against the council of God to Wilford Woodruff because the Lord had foreseen what was going to happen to plural marriage as long as the present system of things continued to exist. As in the BOM, he commanded and revoked.

What is real? | 2:53 p.m. July 4, 2008

Imagine a very small group of non-LDS people who have a morbid desire to defame the LDS Church. They make up a number of on-line persona that they are going to play. Some of the persona are LDS, some are Anti, some are apostate. The entire group of persona begin to have a heated dialog in this free forum. Even a single person with a lot of time on their hands could pull this off. I don't believe half the people here that claim to be active or apostate Mormons ever were. This whole exchange is of no value in it because there is really no life in second life. It is all theater and no one can tell who the players really are. Anyone who would consider being influenced by this type of forum should think through very carefully what is really taking place. There are on-line predators looking for young girls, and there are on-line predators looking to destroy the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church he established.

I'm real are you? | 3:12 p.m. July 4, 2008

re: What is real? What's your name? Mine is Jan.

Looks like all the Anti's are on here posting. It's quite obvious to me the LDS church is a MANS religion.

What is real? | 4:49 p.m. July 4, 2008

Hi Jan. That's a good, non-committal online name. I assume you mean "man's" religion, not "men's" religion. Yes, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a "man's" religion in the possessive sense. "No man cometh unto the Father [obviously a male referant], but by me [Jesus Christ, the man]." It is also a man's religion in the sense that all mankind is invited to worship the Father and the Son. The best understanding of worship is to emulate. "Adorate" is not really the full sense of the word "worship." All mankind may be saved by true worship and acceptance of the atonement of the Son. The man is not without the woman and the woman is not without the man in the Lord Jesus Christ. He created us that way from the beginning. Your comment was designed to be inflammatory. You do not understand the solemnity of what we are sent to earth to do. This life is not a dress rehersal. What we do in earth life is really real. It can hurt people and foment contention or it can heal people and comfort them. Both pain and joy are real. People feel them. Don't lob a genades and hide.

To zoar @ 12:55 | 5:03 p.m. July 4, 2008

You claim that in the old Mormon polygamy "you could not force a woman into polygamy, you could not threaten them with going to hell if they did not obey their husbands." But what about the story of Joseph Smith telling women that they MUST marry him or he would be killed by "an angel with a flaming sword." Don't you think that is a little threatening? Or don't you think that really happened?

To What is real @2:53 | 5:14 p.m. July 4, 2008

I'm curious why you "don't believe half the people here that claim to be active or apostate Mormons ever were." Do you simply disagree with everything that is being said? Why do you think one or two people would want to make this all up? Does that really sound more logical to you, than the fact that both active and apostate Mormons might wish to exchange their thoughts?

FYI--I am a real person. My name is Chris. I used to be a member of the Church. I still have family and friends who are members, and I still continue to care about them very much. I also enjoy sharing my feelings and things that I have learned with anyone who might be interested--including you, if you're willing to listen.

Anonymous | 5:40 p.m. July 4, 2008

Truth or Fiction? Writes:
Mormonism - golden tablets, protective underwear, living on other planets, revelations from a so-called "prophet", all other religious faiths will burn in Hades, will become Gods after death with multiple wifes. Duh!
1- so called "prophet" establishes your hostility.
2- protective underwear "ain't what it's called, nor it's purpose nor claim.
3- church doesn't claim all other faiths will burn in hades (no matter what your pastor tells you)
4- gold plates, not unusual way to keep records.
5- will become like our father in heaven, try reading Christ's opinion on that one.
6- it's wives not wifes and although I don't think that's purely docturnal, it might work when all out petty jealousies and self-centeredness are diminished.
7- Duh!,Duh!

What is real? | 7:07 p.m. July 4, 2008

Hi Chris,
There are many clues -- what specifically is said or not said, the depth of understanding of LDS teachings, the fundimental understanding of the nature of God, etc. There are many who were baptised as children or who are short-term converts whe never have had an understanding of the faith who suppose to represent faith, but who end up presenting grotesque and offisive opinions. I was a Lutheran for the first 23 years of my life, but I wouldn't presume to tell anyone what the teachings of the Lutheran faith are. I spent 4 years in a Lutheran high school, but I certainly wouldn't be so presumptive as to denigrate them in in public forum. It takes depth to have an informed opinion.

Tina Z | 8:19 p.m. July 4, 2008

Re: What is real?

And, where is your posting name? You seem like you are suffering from a bad case of paranoia, because someone out there who may not be LSD is invading your PLASTIC bubble. What's the problem man? Too many nonmembers for your digestion? Get use to it, UTAH is filled with them and we are not stopping yet. Did you ever hear the saying this is your land and this is my land? So who are you? And what's all the anti nonmember stuff all about?

Sara Anne | 8:34 p.m. July 4, 2008

To What is real?

Lutheran huh? My ancestor started the Lutheran religion. Martin Luther 1483-1546 . He was not liked well by the Catholics. However, a few of his descendants like my Mormon pioneer family join the LDS church. I am not active because I'm sort of like Martin Luther and read to much and question much of the Mormon history including Polygamy. People need to study to find the truth.

For Theron | 9:55 p.m. July 4, 2008

No, I'm not perfect or omniscient, but yes I graduated from college. Weber State University, 1990, Cum Laude with 2 degrees, actually.

So why the hostility? Go back and read my posts and you'll see that I never hurled a single insult at you but you reply by calling me "no Einstein" in a mean-spirited way and further that insult by saying that I probably did not graduate from college.

Poor form, bro, poor form....

You're angry because I asked valid questions in which you have no valid reply. I'm sorry you're frustrated but I'm not the one who started you down that path.

As far as my question of finding God "the most", you're twisting my words. I agree with you that God is about "quality" and not "quantity", but in the case of becoming closer to our Creator, the "quality" of our relationship with Him is often determined by the amount or "quantity" of opportunities we have to experience Him. Hence I used the phrase of finding God "the most".

Our common Father in Heaven is trying to nurture us, His children. ALL of us. Good luck in YOUR efforts to find Him.

Signed, A Brother.

Re: Anonymous, July 3rd, 10:50 | 10:16 p.m. July 4, 2008

Yes, that is "a" definition of testimony. Unfortunately that is not "the" definition of a testimony of spiritual truths.

What is a testimony, then?

In the beginning, a testimony is simply a faith or belief in a spiritual truth. Notice I said "truth". Truth is simply "the way things really are". Testimony has NOTHING to do with the amount of self-worth. There are varying degrees of having a testimony. It begins as a belief but if nurtured it can grow or develop into something that you know.

Is that brain-washing? Some, like you, say it is. But all truth must be learned which requires SOME kind of effort. You might learn it quick or perhaps slow, but it still took effort on your part. You praise the child who dilligently studies the principles or "truths" of math to learn algebra but you criticize one who studies and ponders spiritual truths as being brainwashed. In that argument the only one being inconsistent is you.

Some testimonies come easy, some hard. Some come fast, others more slowly. But all come from God. The bottom line is when you have one, you know truth and you know it is of God.

Good luck.

For Sarah | 10:22 p.m. July 4, 2008

AMEN! AMEN!! and AAAAMEN!!!

Like you, I am kind of shocked at how many posters who claim to be members of the Church have such deep-seated flaws in their faith in it. It saddens me quite a bit and yet also causes me to thank the Lord for my testimony.

Keep the faith, sister, keep the faith!

I am real too.....lol | 10:29 p.m. July 4, 2008

My name is Kim. I am definately real and I know many real people that feel similar to me. I used to an LDS member. Many of the things I read on these websites are things I can relate to because they happened to me too. One of the signs of a group that uses conditioning methods to help it's members to conform is to make them think that others that don't feel as they do are somewhat evil (or very evil) and that the "outside" of their group is trying to "take over the good". I can assure you that there are many very good people outside your group that are not predators. Of course, there are also predators among us (and there are predators within your group) I met with them personally too!

Re: Anonymous, 11:31, July 4th | 10:41 p.m. July 4, 2008

Dude, what are you smoking?

How anyone could think that the "Mutual Respect" post was offensive or hypocritical is beyond me. Did you get such a negative outlook on life by eating your Wheaties every morning with vinegar?

Come on, choose to be happy!

Re: What Is Real | 10:45 p.m. July 4, 2008

You know, I've said the same thing a number of times on these message boards. Every anti-LDS comment might be written by a real person with an anti- slant, but I sometimes suspect otherwise.

The caravan moves on!

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Shervin Hess

"History Detectives" host Tukufu Zuberi talks with Marcie Waterman Murray, who owns "Female Life Among the Mormons."

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The case of the anti-Mormons

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The case of the anti-Mormons