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The case of the anti-Mormons
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Jamie | 11:03 a.m. July 1, 2008
Hey,LDS men, no one is stopping you men from partaking and practicing
polygamy...SO PLEASE QUIT WHINING YOU BIG BABIES! The ladies are all lined up
and waiting for you small group of coveting losers.
I think like others on here that the womans book was a true fact and not fiction.
Have a good whine and cry session! Throw a fit if it makes you happy?
Growing up might help as well.
I think like others on here that the womans book was a true fact and not fiction.
Have a good whine and cry session! Throw a fit if it makes you happy?
Growing up might help as well.
non-fiction matters | 11:47 a.m. July 1, 2008
I love anti-Mormons, because they look so stupid as they get exposed by the
truth!
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 12:23 p.m. July 1, 2008
Looks more like anti lds member haters on here.
Oh yeah! | 1:03 p.m. July 1, 2008
What's an Anti? Could it be LDS people who hate nonmembers who disagree
with them, or nonmembers who hate LDS beliefs? Could someone define the
difference?
Although I see nothing harmonious about polygamy. This all seems a bit one sided. What about harmony for womans feelings? Oops! I forget this in a Mormon site. Woman are born to be breeders in a Mormon mens eyes. However, in other religions we enjoy the one wife situation and the bonding with one woman. And please! stop with all the Hollywood comparison stuff! You guys are just as bad as the rest of the fornicating adulterers! Don't be patting yourselves on the back on committing adultery.
We read the book and it is most definitely a true fact. So live with!
Although I see nothing harmonious about polygamy. This all seems a bit one sided. What about harmony for womans feelings? Oops! I forget this in a Mormon site. Woman are born to be breeders in a Mormon mens eyes. However, in other religions we enjoy the one wife situation and the bonding with one woman. And please! stop with all the Hollywood comparison stuff! You guys are just as bad as the rest of the fornicating adulterers! Don't be patting yourselves on the back on committing adultery.
We read the book and it is most definitely a true fact. So live with!
Jo | 2:01 p.m. July 1, 2008
IF polygamy was a revelation and a commandment from God (and that is a BIG IF),
then it should have been announced and revealed in an open and honest way just
like all other "revelations" received by Joseph Smith and his
successors.
But it wasn't. Joseph Smith practiced "spiritual marriage" (The Principle) in secret for around a decade before any formal, official revelation or declaration was ever made about it! That is historical fact, not fiction. And that makes Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy indistinguishable from any man's secret adultery! Oliver Cowdery agreed and was willing to be excommunicated rather than retract his claims that Joseph Smith did NOT commit adultery with Fanny Alger (and others).
So, say what you want, anti-anti-Mormons, but the historical record is there, filled with facts that make Joseph Smith out to be at best a fallen prophet, and at worst the biggest fraud in the American West. Personally, after 35 years in the Church, I have concluded that he was never a prophet of God at all!
But it wasn't. Joseph Smith practiced "spiritual marriage" (The Principle) in secret for around a decade before any formal, official revelation or declaration was ever made about it! That is historical fact, not fiction. And that makes Joseph Smith's practice of polygamy indistinguishable from any man's secret adultery! Oliver Cowdery agreed and was willing to be excommunicated rather than retract his claims that Joseph Smith did NOT commit adultery with Fanny Alger (and others).
So, say what you want, anti-anti-Mormons, but the historical record is there, filled with facts that make Joseph Smith out to be at best a fallen prophet, and at worst the biggest fraud in the American West. Personally, after 35 years in the Church, I have concluded that he was never a prophet of God at all!
to Wondering | 2:11 p.m. July 1, 2008
Wondering. Read what I said about this on this subject: RE:To Rich and Ted B |
3:11 p.m. June 30, 2008
setaf | 3:19 p.m. July 1, 2008
Once again, a simple article evolves into a LDS bashing swill on the comment
page. Those who claim they are not anti-Mormon say they get picked on. Perhaps
if most of them would disagree in a civilized manner they wouldn't be
labeled as such. Perhaps they could cut the insults, name calling and profanity.
I'd respect the differences more readily. One thing these comment sections
do is to provide an instant way to open your mouth and insert foot. I have many
non-Mormon friends who agree to disagree and find common ground. There's
lots of it out there. "Jamie", that is one way to "grow up".
Judging from your post, you have a ways to go.
Georgina | 4:02 p.m. July 1, 2008
What name calling?
People are just writing in honesty of ones thoughts, and you are now bashing me for not agreeing. So who's the better basher, you, me, nonmember, member or X-member? None of us see eye to eye-- Sorry it's rough for you.
People are just writing in honesty of ones thoughts, and you are now bashing me for not agreeing. So who's the better basher, you, me, nonmember, member or X-member? None of us see eye to eye-- Sorry it's rough for you.
kenny | 5:42 p.m. July 1, 2008
People who leave the mormon church seem to do it for its history. The Mormon
church history is about its people and how they lived the gospel. The gospel is
its doctrine not its history.When I listen to people of other faiths I wonder
what it is they belong to.Its surely not religion. Many churches in the world
teach Success!!!!! Soon churches will form down lines and up lines and you will
be able to make money off it!!!!!
Kyle | 6:09 p.m. July 1, 2008
Many people on here have lost their testimonies.
satan chips away a little at a time.
The Spirit, which is real, touches us when we fast, keep the commandments and stay towards the light. Yes, the internet is full of many stories, many true, or somewhat true, of how mortal men were not perfect in their actions.
The Church needs to address the humanness of her early leaders or many will come to leave the church through these internet sites. For me I do not read them as much as I used to, especially before I joined the church when I checked out scores of books. The Spirit bore me, and has since, a number of witnesses; so while I do not understand everything, I do understand where God wants me right now.
In closing, I have seen the spirits of my relatives, I have laid my hands on my son who was bleeding from a large cut, and it was healed as I blessed him; I could go on; these are the fruits of the Spirit.
I love all non-members and those who have left the Church Love and positive feelings come from The Christ.
satan chips away a little at a time.
The Spirit, which is real, touches us when we fast, keep the commandments and stay towards the light. Yes, the internet is full of many stories, many true, or somewhat true, of how mortal men were not perfect in their actions.
The Church needs to address the humanness of her early leaders or many will come to leave the church through these internet sites. For me I do not read them as much as I used to, especially before I joined the church when I checked out scores of books. The Spirit bore me, and has since, a number of witnesses; so while I do not understand everything, I do understand where God wants me right now.
In closing, I have seen the spirits of my relatives, I have laid my hands on my son who was bleeding from a large cut, and it was healed as I blessed him; I could go on; these are the fruits of the Spirit.
I love all non-members and those who have left the Church Love and positive feelings come from The Christ.
Aquinas | 7:01 p.m. July 1, 2008
I suspect that the woman wanted the book to be true because then it would
authenticate prejudices she held about the LDS religion.
Ed Clinch | 10:27 p.m. July 1, 2008
I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ is true, and we would be wise to pay
heed to those that are deemed prophets.
Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing.
Are they Mormons or others?
I am a Mormon and I feel that I am a shepherd.
But only God truly knows His sheep.
Peace, brothers and sisters.
PS: I have never heard of President Monson evincing untoward behavior. I would be surprised to know what it was, if true. How about the Dalai Lama?
Jesus said there would be wolves in sheep's clothing.
Are they Mormons or others?
I am a Mormon and I feel that I am a shepherd.
But only God truly knows His sheep.
Peace, brothers and sisters.
PS: I have never heard of President Monson evincing untoward behavior. I would be surprised to know what it was, if true. How about the Dalai Lama?
setaf | 5:36 a.m. July 2, 2008
Georgina, I really can't find anywhere in these two pages where you posted
anything, so I'm not sure how I bashed you. I just find it sad that so many
people get on these comment sections and say all kinds of hateful things. It
seems they latch onto "anything" that will blacken the LDS Church.
Probably the most sad is people who have been members for many years and
apparently either never had or have lost testimonies of the Gospel, all based on
things that are at best other peoples mistakes, or at worst anti propaganda. I
truly believe the teachings that the Spirit will not
remain where there is contention. That's why I try to avoid these comment sections and am sorry to say I occasionally get caught up in it. It's quite easy to get emotionally involved when people criticize that which you hold dear.
remain where there is contention. That's why I try to avoid these comment sections and am sorry to say I occasionally get caught up in it. It's quite easy to get emotionally involved when people criticize that which you hold dear.
BTL | 8:37 a.m. July 2, 2008
Yes, that is true. The history has everything to do with many members deciding
to leave the church. Once you read all there is about polygamy and the history
of the church, you will then question it's whole entire foundation. And
there aren't too many questions once you have learned the truth. For me it
was polygamy. There is no way in heaven or hell that I will ever believe that
something so painful and hurtful came from god. However there are a few Mormon
MEN who will support this practice in hoping that they will be blessed as gods
someday with many wives. They live and preach it as well- What could be more
fulfilling to a man than to have a harem. That is just a few men, I know many
who say they would NEVER live a polygamy life style.
I thought also that the article was quite interesting. I believe there were many pioneer woman abused with this practice. My ancestor was heart broken over it and live a secluded depressed life.
I thought also that the article was quite interesting. I believe there were many pioneer woman abused with this practice. My ancestor was heart broken over it and live a secluded depressed life.
To setaf @ 5:36 | 9:02 a.m. July 2, 2008
You sound like a very kind and caring person, and I can certainly understand why
it would bother you when others say hurtful things about your Church. Yet when
people feel they have been lied to and misled by an organization it is difficult
to speak kindly. When they feel they have wasted tons of time and money on
something that turned out to be "not what it claimed" they may simply
want to warn their neighbor.
If I had always been told the truth, I think it would be much easier to accept the new information I am learning, and to more quietly walk away.
If I had always been told the truth, I think it would be much easier to accept the new information I am learning, and to more quietly walk away.
Theron | 9:45 a.m. July 2, 2008
For me, the LDS Church provided the context for my family and community life
within which I learned to listen to the voice of the Spirit. As I became
accustomed to listening to the voice of God and the burning of the Spirit in my
life, I realized that the LDS Church does many things that are contrary to the
Spirit of God. As I studied the Church history, I saw repeatedly that the early
Brethren also did many things that were contrary to the Spirit of God. The
Spirit of God has testified to me time and time again that the LDS Church is not
what it claims to be: the one and only true Church on the face of the earth with
which God is well pleased. God, through His Spirit, has told me this, and I
simply left the LDS Church as I was commanded by God. That is ultimately what it
is all about anyway, isn't it? Obedience to God. Too many in the LDS Church
are simply following the social pressures, and are afraid of what other members
and family will think if they should really follow the promptings of the
HolySpirit and leave.
Back to basics | 10:15 a.m. July 2, 2008
The article is about a NON-MORMON history detective on a TV program studying a
book allegedly written in the first person about abuse and torture by a woman in
a polygamous marriage. In the final analysis the NON-MORMON expert determined
that the book was FICTION. Period.
Did abuses happen in Mormon polygamous marriages? Undoubtedly, but stripping naked, tying to a tree, and whipping, I doubt. Were all Mormon men married to several women good husbands, fathers and providers? I doubt it. Were many Mormon men married to several women good husbands, fathers and providers? Probably. Were all women happy in polygamous marriages? Probably not.
Because the LDS Church was established in 1830, its "past" is only 178 years old, so practicing polygamy could be considered part of its "distant past" to some, and "recent" to others. It's all about perspective.
Polygamy is not practiced by the LDS Church today, officially since 1890, and the official Church position is that anyone practicing it will be excommunicated. As for current "sealings" to more than one wife after death of first (second, etc.) spouse, if you don't believe in LDS teachings, it matters not!
Did abuses happen in Mormon polygamous marriages? Undoubtedly, but stripping naked, tying to a tree, and whipping, I doubt. Were all Mormon men married to several women good husbands, fathers and providers? I doubt it. Were many Mormon men married to several women good husbands, fathers and providers? Probably. Were all women happy in polygamous marriages? Probably not.
Because the LDS Church was established in 1830, its "past" is only 178 years old, so practicing polygamy could be considered part of its "distant past" to some, and "recent" to others. It's all about perspective.
Polygamy is not practiced by the LDS Church today, officially since 1890, and the official Church position is that anyone practicing it will be excommunicated. As for current "sealings" to more than one wife after death of first (second, etc.) spouse, if you don't believe in LDS teachings, it matters not!
Janet | 10:38 a.m. July 2, 2008
Pardon me for sounding naive, but what exactly is a "testimony" and
how do people "lose their testimony"?
Former member | 12:59 p.m. July 2, 2008
Good question Janet.
For most LDS members a "testimony" seems to be a memorized mantra that is repeated once a month in "testimony meeting." The words nearly always include, "I know the Church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, I know President _______ (fill in the blank) is a prophet today."
Even as an active member I wondered how 4 years old kids could "know" this. I also wondered why we were not allowed to say, "I believe", or "I feel," but I guess only "knowing" is acceptable in Church.
Many people add more and embellish the basic outline, but this seems to be what is required.
Some members finally realize that they never really had a "testimony" to begin with, while others gradually learn more information that causes them to doubt those words they once said so easily.
For most LDS members a "testimony" seems to be a memorized mantra that is repeated once a month in "testimony meeting." The words nearly always include, "I know the Church is true, I know Joseph Smith was a prophet, I know President _______ (fill in the blank) is a prophet today."
Even as an active member I wondered how 4 years old kids could "know" this. I also wondered why we were not allowed to say, "I believe", or "I feel," but I guess only "knowing" is acceptable in Church.
Many people add more and embellish the basic outline, but this seems to be what is required.
Some members finally realize that they never really had a "testimony" to begin with, while others gradually learn more information that causes them to doubt those words they once said so easily.
Former member Part 2 | 1:05 p.m. July 2, 2008
For many members "gaining a testimony" is a very personal and
spiritual journey, accompanied by much prayer and scripture study. When it
finally "feels right" members believe they have "received a
testimony."
People don't know their history | 1:06 p.m. July 2, 2008
Any reading of the bible shows that polygamy was practiced by Abraham, Isaac,
Jacob, David, Solomon (in fact, the reason why David was not allowed to build
the temple after he had gathered all the materials together was because he took
wives and prostitutes that the Lord didn't approve of). Polygamy is not a
hurtful practice as long as it is done with the spirit of giving, love, and
kindness. I too have read the histories, the ones by pro-mormon authors and
anti-mormon authors. I found again and again that when things were done in the
right spirit, everyone was happy. But there were some LDS men that didn't
do well there. And they will be held responsible for their actions by the Lord.
I see again and again in these forums no distinction between what a man chooses
to do against the teachings of God and what the church teaches. Thats the stupid
part about this whole story! If a man had ever whipped a woman, whether it be
for polygamy or not, he will have to answer to God for it! so it doesn't
matter if the book is true or not. I am a strong member, BTW.
To Janet @10:38 | 3:18 p.m. July 2, 2008
Some people believe that a testimony is God telling them the truth, usually
identified as a burning in their bosom or their heart. They believe people lose
that testimony when they stray away from God by doing anything that God does not
approve of.
It is not the same as a testimony that is given in a court proceeding. A Church testimony can actually grow and change and become very different than it was before. It's not a stable, unchanging statement. Drinking coffee, for instance, might damage a person's testimony. Praying might make it stronger. People are often struggling to keep their testimonies. Some say they are easy to lose.
It is not the same as a testimony that is given in a court proceeding. A Church testimony can actually grow and change and become very different than it was before. It's not a stable, unchanging statement. Drinking coffee, for instance, might damage a person's testimony. Praying might make it stronger. People are often struggling to keep their testimonies. Some say they are easy to lose.
Janet | 4:27 p.m. July 2, 2008
Very interesting. To be honest, I am still not clear what a testimony is, but I
can see some of you have tried to explain.
Is testimony a Christian concept? If so, what other religions have something similar? Is it a concept from a type of mysticism? Do all Mormons have testimonies? If so, are their testimonies different than non-Mormons' testimonies? If not, are those who do not have testimonies considered to be second-class citizens or something? Does a testimony just happen to a person (like election of grace) or is it something a person earns? How is it earned?
Please forgive me for all the questions, but I am really interested.
Is testimony a Christian concept? If so, what other religions have something similar? Is it a concept from a type of mysticism? Do all Mormons have testimonies? If so, are their testimonies different than non-Mormons' testimonies? If not, are those who do not have testimonies considered to be second-class citizens or something? Does a testimony just happen to a person (like election of grace) or is it something a person earns? How is it earned?
Please forgive me for all the questions, but I am really interested.
No respect | 4:34 p.m. July 2, 2008
To 1:06 p.m.
You got to be kidding me. You are one disconnected dude! I see that the regular preacher on here who desires polygamy is preaching again. I'm afraid the only person's you are going to convert to your whacked polygamy are sex offenders and perverts. And who are you to tell others how they would feel in a polygamy life style? Get a life man!!!
You got to be kidding me. You are one disconnected dude! I see that the regular preacher on here who desires polygamy is preaching again. I'm afraid the only person's you are going to convert to your whacked polygamy are sex offenders and perverts. And who are you to tell others how they would feel in a polygamy life style? Get a life man!!!
nathandt | 4:41 p.m. July 2, 2008
To: To Janet@10:38
In what manner would drinking coffee damage one's testimony of the LDS Church?
In what manner would drinking coffee damage one's testimony of the LDS Church?
Karen | 5:25 p.m. July 2, 2008
A testimony is when you know without a doubt that your religion is true. There
are absolutely no doubts.
To: Hoss | 5:38 p.m. July 2, 2008
Comparing sexual promiscuity with polygamy? Don't Mormons claim polygamy
isn�t about sex? Surely modern relationships (married or
not) based on sex alone won�t last long. Good
relationships are about much more.
Using aboriginal tribes as an example? Seriously? Modern women aren�t dependent on men for material support and don�t find it necessary to stay in undesirable relationships; but of course, this wasn�t always the case.
Marriage today is an exclusively shared bond and commitment between two people who have chosen each other. Working on a good marriage is tough and requires both parties to learn to abdicate selfishness and consistently focus on the other to develop and nurture the relationship. If both parties are doing that equally, then both needs are met and the relationship will grow. Bringing others into this time consuming pair-bond easily leads to jealousy and contention. Some women stayed in Mormon polygamous relationships even though they were unhappy, because they couldn�t support themselves or were told the family�s salvation depended on it. For early Mormons, polygamy wasn�t about cultivating a good marriage, it was about procreation--raising lots of children who, generation by generation, were indoctrinated into the religion solely for the benefit of church growth.
Using aboriginal tribes as an example? Seriously? Modern women aren�t dependent on men for material support and don�t find it necessary to stay in undesirable relationships; but of course, this wasn�t always the case.
Marriage today is an exclusively shared bond and commitment between two people who have chosen each other. Working on a good marriage is tough and requires both parties to learn to abdicate selfishness and consistently focus on the other to develop and nurture the relationship. If both parties are doing that equally, then both needs are met and the relationship will grow. Bringing others into this time consuming pair-bond easily leads to jealousy and contention. Some women stayed in Mormon polygamous relationships even though they were unhappy, because they couldn�t support themselves or were told the family�s salvation depended on it. For early Mormons, polygamy wasn�t about cultivating a good marriage, it was about procreation--raising lots of children who, generation by generation, were indoctrinated into the religion solely for the benefit of church growth.
Kevin L. | 5:52 p.m. July 2, 2008
Adolph Hitler tried the Procreation. Also, Hitler wanted to raise a master race.
He also wanted the Nazi men to breed with a plurality of woman much the same as
the Mormon men once did. The LDS members that I remember as kid were very racist
and bigoted. I grew up in Utah so I know this for a fact.
To nathandt @4:41 | 6:05 p.m. July 2, 2008
I honestly don't know how drinking coffee could damage one's testimony
of the LDS Church, but when I was a member we were often warned that doing
anything against Church standards could push away the spirit, and once the
spirit leaves you, well, so long testimony.
Anonymous | 6:20 p.m. July 2, 2008
So if sinning drives away the spirit, and the loss of the spirit results in loss
of testimony...
... but all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
...then either Mormons don't actually have the testimonies they claim they have, or else Mormons are sinless!
So which is it?
... but all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...
...then either Mormons don't actually have the testimonies they claim they have, or else Mormons are sinless!
So which is it?
Chris | 6:29 p.m. July 2, 2008
To: Janet
You ask a lot of interesting questions that I don't really know all the answers to. I think "testimony" is a Christian concept--I've often heard of Christians being "witnesses" for Christ. I know it is a prominent part of LDS culture. And I think it is kind of a mystic concept (sort of like receiving an answer to prayer).
I think EVERYONE (not just Mormons) have a testimony of something. It's something you feel so strongly that you just say you know it. Some anti-Mormons actually have very strong testimonies that the Church is NOT true. And I think that most believers (Baptist, Buddhas, whatever) have a strong feeling that their's is the most true and enlightened way.
Mormon testimonies are different in that they always say "they know" the Church is true. In reality their "knowing" might simply be a very strong belief, or even a "hope" that it is true. Mormons are actually taught that they can gain a testimony by "bearing it" or simply saying that they have one. (This always seems a little strange to me, but I think it's that "fake it, till you make it" approach.) More to follow...
You ask a lot of interesting questions that I don't really know all the answers to. I think "testimony" is a Christian concept--I've often heard of Christians being "witnesses" for Christ. I know it is a prominent part of LDS culture. And I think it is kind of a mystic concept (sort of like receiving an answer to prayer).
I think EVERYONE (not just Mormons) have a testimony of something. It's something you feel so strongly that you just say you know it. Some anti-Mormons actually have very strong testimonies that the Church is NOT true. And I think that most believers (Baptist, Buddhas, whatever) have a strong feeling that their's is the most true and enlightened way.
Mormon testimonies are different in that they always say "they know" the Church is true. In reality their "knowing" might simply be a very strong belief, or even a "hope" that it is true. Mormons are actually taught that they can gain a testimony by "bearing it" or simply saying that they have one. (This always seems a little strange to me, but I think it's that "fake it, till you make it" approach.) More to follow...
Chris 2 | 6:46 p.m. July 2, 2008
To: Janet
I don't think Mormons who do not yet have "testimonies" are considered second-class citizens, but they are encouraged to study more, pray more, and to just have faith that eventually they will get the conviction they are seeking. (There is never any acknowledgment that someone could possibly never get the answer that the Church is true or even worse an answer that it is false--simply not an option. However, if that should happen then those feelings are "of the devil".)
Some people are told that they have the gift of believing, and for them it is easy to quickly say that they "know." For others, I guess you could say a testimony is "earned" by much study, prayer, and often fasting. And some members are told that they simply have the gift of believing the testimony of others, without ever having a real testimony of their own, and that is okay, too.
I know, it's all a little confusing. At least it was for me, and I was a member for most of my life. Hope this helps.
I don't think Mormons who do not yet have "testimonies" are considered second-class citizens, but they are encouraged to study more, pray more, and to just have faith that eventually they will get the conviction they are seeking. (There is never any acknowledgment that someone could possibly never get the answer that the Church is true or even worse an answer that it is false--simply not an option. However, if that should happen then those feelings are "of the devil".)
Some people are told that they have the gift of believing, and for them it is easy to quickly say that they "know." For others, I guess you could say a testimony is "earned" by much study, prayer, and often fasting. And some members are told that they simply have the gift of believing the testimony of others, without ever having a real testimony of their own, and that is okay, too.
I know, it's all a little confusing. At least it was for me, and I was a member for most of my life. Hope this helps.
To Anonymous @6:20 | 6:53 p.m. July 2, 2008
You make a good point. But I think this is where repentance comes in. Mormons
repent very quickly, then the spirit returns, and their testimonies stay strong.
Anonymous | 7:42 p.m. July 2, 2008
Yeah, Mormons repent very quickly, and then turn around and do the same thing
again. What a lame explanation.
Sarah | 8:46 p.m. July 2, 2008
As members of the LDS church, there are some questions we need to ask ourselves.
Was Joseph Smith a prophet, called of God to restore the true Gospel to the
Earth? If yes, did he ever fall away and lose that calling, the way some
prophets of old (such as David) did? Do you believe that he translated the Book
of Mormon from an ancient record, or that he made the entire thing up? Do you
believe that the D&C is comprised of revelations from Heavenly Father, or
that it was fiction made up by (in most cases) Joseph Smith?
If you don't believe that Joseph was a true prophet until his death, if you don't believe that he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God, if you don't believe that the D&C is full of direct revelations from the Lord (including section 132), then why on earth are you a member of the church? Those are some of the most basic tenants of our religion, the very things that set us apart from any other Christian denomination. You can't just believe bits and pieces of it and still be true to the Gospel.
If you don't believe that Joseph was a true prophet until his death, if you don't believe that he translated the Book of Mormon by the gift and power of God, if you don't believe that the D&C is full of direct revelations from the Lord (including section 132), then why on earth are you a member of the church? Those are some of the most basic tenants of our religion, the very things that set us apart from any other Christian denomination. You can't just believe bits and pieces of it and still be true to the Gospel.
Re: Anonymous @ 7:42 | 8:47 p.m. July 2, 2008
If you repeat the same sin over and over again, then you haven't actually
repented, now have you? That's not how it works. To actually repent, you
don't repeat the sin, you give it up. If you don't, the repentence
doesn't count.
Polygamy & SEX | 10:20 p.m. July 2, 2008
To To Hoss
Absolutely! Polygamy is entirely ALL about SEX, don't let anyone pull the wool over your eyes on that one. I grew up in the FLDS. Got kicked out and all for the better. Polygamy is not good!!
Absolutely! Polygamy is entirely ALL about SEX, don't let anyone pull the wool over your eyes on that one. I grew up in the FLDS. Got kicked out and all for the better. Polygamy is not good!!
You decide | 10:47 p.m. July 2, 2008
For any of you that have access or own �The LDS Collectors
Library� There is a interesting read on plural marriage.
I won�t say what it is because that would give it away.
In your search criteria, search the entire library. Set your author to Andrus.
Hyrum L. Now in the search line type Mary Lightner. Click view matches. Scroll
down to the heading Hyrum L. Andrus, Doctrines of the Kingdom, p.477 and click
on it. What you will read will astonish you and I don�t
mean that in a negative way. All I can say is how to you explain something like
that.
Re: To Rich and Ted B | 12:38 a.m. July 3, 2008
who wrote at 11:43 a.m. June 30, 2008.
You say "thank goodness for the internet" as the source of all truth.
Hmmmmm.....I say "thank goodness for God". Don't you know that HE is THE source for confirming all truth?
Don't get me wrong; the internet is nice and it does have some interesting info, but to confirm something as truth, me?, I'm going to ask God Himself.
Good luck finding what you're looking for....
You say "thank goodness for the internet" as the source of all truth.
Hmmmmm.....I say "thank goodness for God". Don't you know that HE is THE source for confirming all truth?
Don't get me wrong; the internet is nice and it does have some interesting info, but to confirm something as truth, me?, I'm going to ask God Himself.
Good luck finding what you're looking for....
Ah..... | 12:47 a.m. July 3, 2008
the anti's are out in force again, eh?
Come to think of it, you guys are out in force just about every day on these DesNews posts, aren't you?...
Oh well, truth will win out in the end.
Besides, wouldn't you really rather study what the LDS church teaches and WHY it teaches it rather than just blindly tear it down? And when I say "study", I mean learn about the issues of Mormonism from BOTH sides of the coin?
Just a thought.
Come to think of it, you guys are out in force just about every day on these DesNews posts, aren't you?...
Oh well, truth will win out in the end.
Besides, wouldn't you really rather study what the LDS church teaches and WHY it teaches it rather than just blindly tear it down? And when I say "study", I mean learn about the issues of Mormonism from BOTH sides of the coin?
Just a thought.
Otis Spurlock | 8:08 a.m. July 3, 2008
Joseph Smith practiced polygamy for at least 9 years and had at least 28 wives.
Besides with Emma, how many children did he father from his other wives? 100?
50? Nope. I am sure that for a man with an unbridled sexual appetite he would
have had at least 20 children with all of those women, no?
Well, at last count there were only 8 possible children. These things can be checked out using modern DNA matching on living descendants to triangulate the paternity of the ancestor (Y chromosome for the father). Two of the 8 children had no offspring, so they are out. Three of them have had tests confirm that Joseph was NOT the father. That leaves three possible children from women who were not Emma, and one of those has come up as undeterminable. That leaves two. TWO, and maybe not even those!
Joseph was not sterile. Emma bore their last son 5 months after his death.
We know he did have relations with some of his plural wives. He also married women who were well into their 50s while Joseph was in his mid 30s.
Clearly, polygamy in that era was NOT all about sex.
Well, at last count there were only 8 possible children. These things can be checked out using modern DNA matching on living descendants to triangulate the paternity of the ancestor (Y chromosome for the father). Two of the 8 children had no offspring, so they are out. Three of them have had tests confirm that Joseph was NOT the father. That leaves three possible children from women who were not Emma, and one of those has come up as undeterminable. That leaves two. TWO, and maybe not even those!
Joseph was not sterile. Emma bore their last son 5 months after his death.
We know he did have relations with some of his plural wives. He also married women who were well into their 50s while Joseph was in his mid 30s.
Clearly, polygamy in that era was NOT all about sex.
I am a kind, responsible | 8:20 a.m. July 3, 2008
Person and not an "anti". But I did leave the LDS church. This
wasn't because I don't love many of you, but because I had questions
and I studied! I heard someone once suggest something so simple as go to the
library and study religion....(So I guess you could say I did this partly with
my library card) So please stop lumping us all together! The world is never
going to all agree with you; in fact the majority does not. And your polygamy
beliefs for now or the next life (depending on FLDS or LDS) is ridiculous by the
way
Ryan | 8:45 a.m. July 3, 2008
What makes so many of yuo folks think that if someone takes a stand against the
church that we haven't (as "Ah..." put it) studied both sides of
the coin. It's been my experience that LDS people are much less likely to
every examine evidence that has contradictory implication to their views than
non-mormons.
secondly, time and time again, groups and people outside the LDS church have examined the book of Mormon and almost overwhelmingly discredited it. Every time that happens all the LDS people here are all up in arms and talk about how biased they "obviously" were, but when anyone outside the church (as discussed in this article) discredits something that looks bad for the church everyone talks about how great they are, and how the LDS community knew all along.
secondly, time and time again, groups and people outside the LDS church have examined the book of Mormon and almost overwhelmingly discredited it. Every time that happens all the LDS people here are all up in arms and talk about how biased they "obviously" were, but when anyone outside the church (as discussed in this article) discredits something that looks bad for the church everyone talks about how great they are, and how the LDS community knew all along.
Re: kind, responsible person | 8:50 a.m. July 3, 2008
It's not exactly kind to tell people that their beliefs are ridiculous, now
is it?
Oh yes!!! | 9:05 a.m. July 3, 2008
Someone scolding Mormons earlier was so "thankful to the internet"
because she could learn so much about their history, etc....
You honestly believe everything on the internet? You have any idea how many ridiculous things there are on the web? Let's not even include LDS myths...anyone can write anything on the internet. Please, let's take an intelligent approach here.
You honestly believe everything on the internet? You have any idea how many ridiculous things there are on the web? Let's not even include LDS myths...anyone can write anything on the internet. Please, let's take an intelligent approach here.
Deedra M. | 9:16 a.m. July 3, 2008
I grew up in the LDS church, and we have Polygamy from a great many of our
ancestors. I have never heard anything positively said about polygamy that was
good. However, a lot of the men in our family are LDS chauvinistic men to say
the least and think it was just fine(MEN OF COURSE). My great, great, great,
grandmothers hated polygamy! Some even said they would have left Utah if there
had been away to get out. But what would a pioneer woman do if she had NO MONEY
and stuck married to a polygamist pig with 10 children? NOTHING!...DUH!
Trust Me | 10:02 a.m. July 3, 2008
Oh yes!!! | 9:05 a.m.
Yes, let's take an intelligent approach here.
Do you honestly believe everything taught in Sunday School? Do you honestly think the whole truth and nothing but the truth is published in your highly edited Church manuals? Do you have any idea how many ridiculous things there are said in talks from the Church pulpits and in lessons and classes?
Don't be foolish. There is FAR MORE TRUTH on the Internet than you can possibly get in twenty years of attending Church meetings, watching General Conference, earning a degree at BYU, serving an honorable, full-time LDS mission, and being married in the LDS Temple for 18 years. Trust me, I know!
Yes, let's take an intelligent approach here.
Do you honestly believe everything taught in Sunday School? Do you honestly think the whole truth and nothing but the truth is published in your highly edited Church manuals? Do you have any idea how many ridiculous things there are said in talks from the Church pulpits and in lessons and classes?
Don't be foolish. There is FAR MORE TRUTH on the Internet than you can possibly get in twenty years of attending Church meetings, watching General Conference, earning a degree at BYU, serving an honorable, full-time LDS mission, and being married in the LDS Temple for 18 years. Trust me, I know!
To: Polygamy & SEX | 10:18 a.m. July 3, 2008
Agreed. There is nothing good about polygamy. It�s
detrimental to the process of creating a mutually satisfying emotional bond
between a man and woman. I personally have no doubt that anything that would be
injurious to another has nothing to do with God.
My point was simply this. There were only about 1,200 people who followed BY to Utah territory. Eventually statehood became an issue, and Utah applied numerous times. One of the many requirements of statehood included a stipulation of a population of at least 60,000. Heavy missionary efforts brought in thousands of converts, but BY was a dictatorial, strongly autocratic leader. Unlike converts, children were indoctrinated from birth to believe the prophet�s infallibility. Aside from the obvious benefit to the male portion of the population, polygamous marriages created instant and reliable growth for the church. It was the only belief system that these generations of children knew. I�m fairly certain that early Mormon leaders were able to recognize that having a hundred Mormon children at once was good for the membership rolls.
My point was simply this. There were only about 1,200 people who followed BY to Utah territory. Eventually statehood became an issue, and Utah applied numerous times. One of the many requirements of statehood included a stipulation of a population of at least 60,000. Heavy missionary efforts brought in thousands of converts, but BY was a dictatorial, strongly autocratic leader. Unlike converts, children were indoctrinated from birth to believe the prophet�s infallibility. Aside from the obvious benefit to the male portion of the population, polygamous marriages created instant and reliable growth for the church. It was the only belief system that these generations of children knew. I�m fairly certain that early Mormon leaders were able to recognize that having a hundred Mormon children at once was good for the membership rolls.
Ok, I guess I'm not completely | 10:44 a.m. July 3, 2008
Kind because I tell the truth! I've found that some people don't want
it....sorry. I am kind to others except where I tell them the obvious that they
may not want to hear! But I do wish you the best!
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It is common among all the aboriginal tribes. In the more �civilized� areas, it is legally entered into by 17% of the world. It is common in Western world for women to have children with multiple different fathers, with fathers having multiple children by multiple women. In these kinds of hookups, women and children get horribly neglected and abused. Why are not the anti-polygamy people speaking up about this form of devastating polygamy?
In this world with its weird focus on �finding one's sole mate� kind of marriages, men and women more often than not, sleep with scores of sexual partners before they find that �sole mate�, and often have children by these �non-married� encounters. On top of that these �sole-mate� marriages don�t last all that long as they have extra-marital affairs and they go on to multiple marriages. Why are not the anti-polygamy people speaking up about this form of devastating polygamy?
How many of the anti-historical LDS polygamy people have had only one sexual partner, it being the person they are married to?