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MormonTimes.com: Greed drove 1838 persecution, BYU Studies article says
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George S. Donaldson | 2:34 p.m. June 27, 2008
Oh Lord, please help me be kind, insightful and non-judgmental of others. But,
of course, please let me continue to believe that I'm smarter and better
than they are, even when I'm wrong. Please let me be just like John
Lambert. Thank you, Amen.
Back to the Actual Subject | 2:51 p.m. June 27, 2008
I ask any of you, for or against Mormons--IS IT ACCEPTABLE UNDER ANY
CIRCUMSTANCES to plunder, vandalize, rape, torture, and slaughter a group of
people based on religious belief?
THAT, my friends, is what happened in Missouri in 1838. Mormons themselves could have played something of a role in fanning the flames by being self-righteous and proud, and by some isolated incidents of revenge against their attackers. Mormons, then as now, were only human. Historical fact admits both as possible contributing factors.
But with apologies to Billy Joel, the Mormons didn't start the fire. They were mercilessly attacked and driven from Missouri under PRETENSE of law. The governor of Missouri signed the order to KILL THEM ALL--and several years later, the governor of Illinois refused to protect them. They were deprived of their Constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They were NOT the aggressors.
Those of you who blame Mormons for what happened in Missouri in 1838--do you also blame the Jews for what was happening in Europe in 1938?
State-sanctioned oppression and religious bigotry--which clearly happened as a matter of historical fact--are ALWAYS WRONG. Period.
THAT, my friends, is what happened in Missouri in 1838. Mormons themselves could have played something of a role in fanning the flames by being self-righteous and proud, and by some isolated incidents of revenge against their attackers. Mormons, then as now, were only human. Historical fact admits both as possible contributing factors.
But with apologies to Billy Joel, the Mormons didn't start the fire. They were mercilessly attacked and driven from Missouri under PRETENSE of law. The governor of Missouri signed the order to KILL THEM ALL--and several years later, the governor of Illinois refused to protect them. They were deprived of their Constitutional rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. They were NOT the aggressors.
Those of you who blame Mormons for what happened in Missouri in 1838--do you also blame the Jews for what was happening in Europe in 1938?
State-sanctioned oppression and religious bigotry--which clearly happened as a matter of historical fact--are ALWAYS WRONG. Period.
Comments continue below
Lee | 2:58 p.m. June 27, 2008
Perhaps John should read the latest Ensign. There is an article there about how
to post on Internet sites by one of the 12. You should follow his advice.
Rich | 2:59 p.m. June 27, 2008
Let me summarize some of the comments here:
I don't agree with the latest and most detailed study of Mormon history because it does not support my point of view. Therefore, I will ignore the facts and either continue to spout theories and suppositions, or I will repeat previous historical analyses that support my point of view, even if I have to quote discredited or unsupported sources and ignore other facts that have come to light. After all, I am not interested in the truth: I am interested in my point of view foremost and seek and recognize the truth only if it supports my position. It is far more important for me to hold to my biases than let facts get in the way of opinion. I also realize that some groups in this country repeat lies, exaggerations, misquotes and mischaracterizations so often that eventually they gain a modicum of acceptability. I will join in repeating theories as fact until you accept my point of view.
I don't agree with the latest and most detailed study of Mormon history because it does not support my point of view. Therefore, I will ignore the facts and either continue to spout theories and suppositions, or I will repeat previous historical analyses that support my point of view, even if I have to quote discredited or unsupported sources and ignore other facts that have come to light. After all, I am not interested in the truth: I am interested in my point of view foremost and seek and recognize the truth only if it supports my position. It is far more important for me to hold to my biases than let facts get in the way of opinion. I also realize that some groups in this country repeat lies, exaggerations, misquotes and mischaracterizations so often that eventually they gain a modicum of acceptability. I will join in repeating theories as fact until you accept my point of view.
jr | 3:05 p.m. June 27, 2008
Utah history has been so one sided and not being a native mormon I am now very
doubtful of their history and even their historians of past (80's)had
difficulty writing the history as the leaders would have it written. So tired
of hearing of the persecutions as they are in denial of the persecutions they
inflicted on the early settlers here in Utah even (indian and whites) They
early mormons were not innocent - the past is the past and we can only learn
from it if it is written truthfully, lies upon lies do not help people to move
forward
John Lambert | 3:11 p.m. June 27, 2008
I went back an reread my posts to see if they were understandable.
I guess my point about police suppression vs. mob suppression was a bit oblique. What I was responding to is those who say "It is worse for the state to orderly commit a crime than for individuals to commit a crime as a mob."
My response if that they just destroyed a press in Nauvoo and did not tar and feather people like happened in Jackson County as the press was suppressed.
I also wonder how you would feel about a libelous paper that threatened a return to your wife and daughters being raped, you son shot and your house burned. Maybe you think freedom of the press is worth having starving children crying for a want of bread, but at least you should consider this. Anyway, the bill of rights is not applied to the states until after the passage of the 14th admendment in the 1860s, so you are judging them by our standards.
Worst of all, Randy is totally off base by bringing it up, since events that happened in 1844 do not effect what people do in 1838.
I guess my point about police suppression vs. mob suppression was a bit oblique. What I was responding to is those who say "It is worse for the state to orderly commit a crime than for individuals to commit a crime as a mob."
My response if that they just destroyed a press in Nauvoo and did not tar and feather people like happened in Jackson County as the press was suppressed.
I also wonder how you would feel about a libelous paper that threatened a return to your wife and daughters being raped, you son shot and your house burned. Maybe you think freedom of the press is worth having starving children crying for a want of bread, but at least you should consider this. Anyway, the bill of rights is not applied to the states until after the passage of the 14th admendment in the 1860s, so you are judging them by our standards.
Worst of all, Randy is totally off base by bringing it up, since events that happened in 1844 do not effect what people do in 1838.
Good job Rich @2:59 | 3:12 p.m. June 27, 2008
Great summary Rich. I think you summarized the prevailing attitudes of most
Utahns very, very well.
Just the facts | 3:20 p.m. June 27, 2008
Sidney Rigdon�s Extermination Speech (given months prior to
that of Governor Boggs)
We take God and all the holy angels to witness, this day, that we warn all men, in the name of Jesus Christ to come on us no more for ever, from this hour we will bear it no more; our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity; the man, or the set of men who attempt it, do it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed. . . . We this day, then, proclaim ourselves free with a purpose and determination that never can be broken, No, never! No, never! No, never! (Comprehensive History of the Church, by B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, p. 441).
Seems Sidney was actually first to suggest extermination.
We take God and all the holy angels to witness, this day, that we warn all men, in the name of Jesus Christ to come on us no more for ever, from this hour we will bear it no more; our rights shall no more be trampled on with impunity; the man, or the set of men who attempt it, do it at the expense of their lives. And that mob that comes on us to disturb us, it shall be between us and them a war of extermination; for we will follow them until the last drop of their blood is spilled; or else they will have to exterminate us, for we will carry the seat of war to their own houses and their own families, and one party or the other shall be utterly destroyed. . . . We this day, then, proclaim ourselves free with a purpose and determination that never can be broken, No, never! No, never! No, never! (Comprehensive History of the Church, by B. H. Roberts, vol. 1, p. 441).
Seems Sidney was actually first to suggest extermination.
Rib | 3:33 p.m. June 27, 2008
The mormon's gave up their land in favor of MLMs and polygamy.
??? | 3:46 p.m. June 27, 2008
Greed, ignorance, & fear...it appears that Humanity hasn't changed at
all since the dinosaurs died off.
Utah Grandma | 4:20 p.m. June 27, 2008
"Just the facts" followed the usual practice of doctoring the Rigdon
quotation he presented here, skipping over:
"We will never be the aggressors, we will infringe on the rights of no people, but shall stand for our own until death. We claim our own right and are willing that all others shall enjoy theirs. No man shall be at liberty to come into our streets, to threaten us with mobs, for if he does he shall atone for it before he leaves the place; neither shall he be at liberty to villify and slander any of us, for suffer it we will not, in this place. We therefore take all men to record this day, that we proclaim our liberty this day, as did our fathers, and we pledge this day to one another our fortunes, our lives, and our sacred honors, to be delivered from the persecutions, which we have had to endure for the last nine years or nearly that time. Neither will we indulge any man, or set of men, in instituting law suits against us, to cheat us out of our rights; if they attempt it we say woe be unto them." HC I:441
"Hosannah!"
"We will never be the aggressors, we will infringe on the rights of no people, but shall stand for our own until death. We claim our own right and are willing that all others shall enjoy theirs. No man shall be at liberty to come into our streets, to threaten us with mobs, for if he does he shall atone for it before he leaves the place; neither shall he be at liberty to villify and slander any of us, for suffer it we will not, in this place. We therefore take all men to record this day, that we proclaim our liberty this day, as did our fathers, and we pledge this day to one another our fortunes, our lives, and our sacred honors, to be delivered from the persecutions, which we have had to endure for the last nine years or nearly that time. Neither will we indulge any man, or set of men, in instituting law suits against us, to cheat us out of our rights; if they attempt it we say woe be unto them." HC I:441
"Hosannah!"
Carlos | 5:09 p.m. June 27, 2008
Having read all I could get my hands on both sides of the issue. I adjudge the
mormons to be correct. Now the rest of you get out of my office and get back to
work.
Anonymous | 5:10 p.m. June 27, 2008
Here are the facts: History is written by the victors.
The victors in missouri wrote the history there.
The victor in illinios wrote the history there.
The victors in utah write the history here.
Try and find a truly objective view of history.
And you must always ask the question does the person writing the history have an agenda?
However, one thing is very clear mormons were beaten, tarred and feathered, raped, killed, their land taken from them, and driven from missouri AFTER establishing LEGALLY a community there.
When you are being deprived of your rights how would you act?
Did SOME mormons fan the flames and deserve punshment for their actions. YES. But that did not justify what happend to them.
And then the same thing happened in illinoise.
Forcing the mormons out who then went to what is now utah.
Are mormons perfect? NO! they are just people.
Does any of this make the gospel less true. NO.
Will choosing your actions and beliefs by how a few mormons act change what is the gospel truth? NO.
The victors in missouri wrote the history there.
The victor in illinios wrote the history there.
The victors in utah write the history here.
Try and find a truly objective view of history.
And you must always ask the question does the person writing the history have an agenda?
However, one thing is very clear mormons were beaten, tarred and feathered, raped, killed, their land taken from them, and driven from missouri AFTER establishing LEGALLY a community there.
When you are being deprived of your rights how would you act?
Did SOME mormons fan the flames and deserve punshment for their actions. YES. But that did not justify what happend to them.
And then the same thing happened in illinoise.
Forcing the mormons out who then went to what is now utah.
Are mormons perfect? NO! they are just people.
Does any of this make the gospel less true. NO.
Will choosing your actions and beliefs by how a few mormons act change what is the gospel truth? NO.
Anonymous | 5:54 p.m. June 27, 2008
Mormons aren't perfect? I'm confused...so many of you try to make us
think that you are.
Jerry W | 6:09 p.m. June 27, 2008
Sad But True. Some people seem to have a compulsion to hate someone or
something. If it isn't the blacks it is the jews. If it isn't the
jews it's the Mormons or someone else. It makes me think they are not very
happy with themselves so they project this self hatred onto someone else. So
sad to think that someone has to go through life carrying this heavy burden. It
seems like this is like an albatros hung around their necks that they carry
around with them every where they go. How much better would it be to lead a
productive life of service to others. I use Jerry W so as not to be confused
with another Jerry that has been posting recently.
REAnony 5:54 | 6:11 p.m. June 27, 2008
NO, you just expect us to be, and then jump on us when you find one that
isn't.
to re: real history 9:21 | 6:21 p.m. June 27, 2008
I think you may have misspoke when you said you have "to [sic] many of the
original sources." The books you've read were researched which
research likely included original sources, but unless you're sitting on a
pile of valuable letters and land documents, you haven't read original
sources.
If I've misconstrued your meaning, Brother, you could make a bundle on eBay.
If I've misconstrued your meaning, Brother, you could make a bundle on eBay.
Joe | 6:29 p.m. June 27, 2008
Don't any of you people have JOBS???
To Joe | 7:45 p.m. June 27, 2008
Nope. No job. Just a "Lady of Leisure" who is easily entertained by
all your comments. Keep writing. Thanks!
Ted | 7:52 p.m. June 27, 2008
You go John Lambert! I agree with you 110%. It is funny what some people will do
and say when confronted with the truth or issues they do not want to deal with.
You go John as it is all about free speach.
Re; Joe | 8:43 p.m. June 27, 2008
I have a job,but it is very boring! This stuff helps me make it through the day!
Sometimes I laugh, sometimes I get emotionally involved. How about you?
Anonymous | 9:44 p.m. June 27, 2008
EL DORADO TEXAS GREED AGAINST THE FLDS.
George | 9:48 p.m. June 27, 2008
I enjoy John Lambert's writing also. It helps to balance out the views on
the other side and to keep this thread entertaining. Keep it up please.
Not Again... | 11:41 p.m. June 27, 2008
The church is such a clear example of trying to make a camel go through a
needle's eye... straining a gnats to make a case out of something that
smacks of the pot calling the kettle black when all is studied, said and
done.
I'll tell you, the deeper the church tries to get into this stuff to justify or exonerate their own culpability in the Missouri fracas, the more they open themselves up to well and very deeply researched and documented counter facts.
Saying J.Smith never stood before a judge for the charge of TreasureDigging is a perfect example, that is further muddied by Joseph Fielding Smith firmly declaring over the pulpit that if such a charge were to prove true than the church and its gospel would NOT be true... Well... the documentation and facts have now proven J.Smith was indeed brought before a judge for treasure digging and also fined and chided for the action... Does this now make the church not true? Depends on if one places their trust, confidence and faith in the prophet's declarations or not, especially when given over the pulpit.
"Divinely Manifest History" is a dangerous and mixed bag indeed!
I'll tell you, the deeper the church tries to get into this stuff to justify or exonerate their own culpability in the Missouri fracas, the more they open themselves up to well and very deeply researched and documented counter facts.
Saying J.Smith never stood before a judge for the charge of TreasureDigging is a perfect example, that is further muddied by Joseph Fielding Smith firmly declaring over the pulpit that if such a charge were to prove true than the church and its gospel would NOT be true... Well... the documentation and facts have now proven J.Smith was indeed brought before a judge for treasure digging and also fined and chided for the action... Does this now make the church not true? Depends on if one places their trust, confidence and faith in the prophet's declarations or not, especially when given over the pulpit.
"Divinely Manifest History" is a dangerous and mixed bag indeed!
Harley in San Diego | 1:47 a.m. June 28, 2008
You all are a little messed up here. If those Mormon's didn't go
after those beating them up, I would have if I lived during that time.
How much trash can a group of people take? They being ignored by the so called "Liberty of the Land" to practice religion how ever they wanted?
Why don't you all in Utah just leave those religious people alone?
How much trash can a group of people take? They being ignored by the so called "Liberty of the Land" to practice religion how ever they wanted?
Why don't you all in Utah just leave those religious people alone?
from Michigan | 2:43 p.m. June 28, 2008
The "root cause" of the problems in Missouri started in 1831-1833.
David Whitmer in his Address To All Believers In Christ stated that he
prophesied boldly to Joseph Smith that if he Joseph published his false
revelations (among which was that Independence, Missouri was the place for the
New Jerusalem, i.e., it was "yours" and now it is going to be
"ours") that a mob would come and destroy the printing press and drive
Joseph Smith and his followers out of Jackson County.
Matthew | 11:57 p.m. June 28, 2008
Missouri officialy apologized. End of Story.
Or perhaps not since there seem to be so many that are still so intent on persecuting members of the LDS Church.
Why don't they follow the advice of good ol' Gamaliel (or however it is spelled)? For the same reason the folks he spoke to in his time didn't?
Just something to think about.
Or perhaps not since there seem to be so many that are still so intent on persecuting members of the LDS Church.
Why don't they follow the advice of good ol' Gamaliel (or however it is spelled)? For the same reason the folks he spoke to in his time didn't?
Just something to think about.
Socalmon | 5:23 p.m. June 30, 2008
I believe there have been some reparations made to the Japanese-Americans during
WWII for their internments and loss of money. The US government lately,
indirectly helps many American Indians, as well. Maybe both Mormons, and
especially Blacks, have a beef after all. But, it is always a better path to
follow the Savior's example and forgive. Otherwise, these wounds fester
forever. Just take a look at the Middle East. No end in sight for that Stage IV
open pressure sore.
Re: Real HIstory, 27 June, 7:12 | 11:21 p.m. July 1, 2008
If you get your "real history" only from Wikipedia and "the
internet", please make sure I don't invest in any "can't
miss" investment schemes you may come up with....
I don't mind the anti-Mormons | 11:44 p.m. July 1, 2008
themselves, you know, as people. However, their usually hateful attitudes
towards the LDS people and their religion makes me wanna' puke....
It is genuinely difficult at times to be patient and understanding with their spewage.
Please note, anti's, I said "usually", not "always". If you dislike the LDS church but are sincere in your kindness towards LDS members, thank you. If on the other hand, your attitudes stink to high-heaven of hatred and disgust towards us, please fix it. We'd appreciate it.
It is genuinely difficult at times to be patient and understanding with their spewage.
Please note, anti's, I said "usually", not "always". If you dislike the LDS church but are sincere in your kindness towards LDS members, thank you. If on the other hand, your attitudes stink to high-heaven of hatred and disgust towards us, please fix it. We'd appreciate it.
The High Road | 11:53 p.m. July 1, 2008
My LDS brothers and sisters:
Let's try to take the high road on these DesNews posts. Teach, explain, testify if need be, but don't bash, call anyone names, judge a non-member (or anyone really) to be of lesser intelligence or worth. As humans, we all receive information and try to understand it as best we can and make decisions based on that information. Many non-LDS people will misunderstand us, call us names, ridicule us, etc, etc. You've all read it before and it certainly won't go away anytime soon.
Let us stand as "witnesses of God at all times and in all things and in all places" but let us make the Lord proud of us how we go about doing it.
The caravan moves on!
Let's try to take the high road on these DesNews posts. Teach, explain, testify if need be, but don't bash, call anyone names, judge a non-member (or anyone really) to be of lesser intelligence or worth. As humans, we all receive information and try to understand it as best we can and make decisions based on that information. Many non-LDS people will misunderstand us, call us names, ridicule us, etc, etc. You've all read it before and it certainly won't go away anytime soon.
Let us stand as "witnesses of God at all times and in all things and in all places" but let us make the Lord proud of us how we go about doing it.
The caravan moves on!
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