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Merit pay for teachers a must
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Anonymous | 12:18 a.m. June 27, 2008
There are no bad teachers. Merit pay makes no sense.
Utah Teacher | 1:18 a.m. June 27, 2008
Money isn't an issue?
You mean there is $20 million that could have been going for teacher salaries all along? Where have they been hiding it? Why have they been holding out?
Look, I'm the first one to say that the good teachers should get more pay. I work with a few that obviously chose the wrong profession. They are the large minority. I'd love to force them out the door instead of clean up the mess they make every year.
Merit pay won't do that. Some of these teachers are the "veteran" teachers. They teach the best kids due to seniority. Their test scores look great and on paper they are great teachers. However when you ask the students or parents they will tell you otherwise.
Merit pay will increase these kinds of problems. The veterans will take the easy classes with the brightest kids. The new teachers will be banished to teach the low level classes with the toughest kids, make less money than the veterans, and quit.
Utah doesn't need to be forcing more young teachers out the door. We need all the help we can get.
So where have they been hiding this money?
You mean there is $20 million that could have been going for teacher salaries all along? Where have they been hiding it? Why have they been holding out?
Look, I'm the first one to say that the good teachers should get more pay. I work with a few that obviously chose the wrong profession. They are the large minority. I'd love to force them out the door instead of clean up the mess they make every year.
Merit pay won't do that. Some of these teachers are the "veteran" teachers. They teach the best kids due to seniority. Their test scores look great and on paper they are great teachers. However when you ask the students or parents they will tell you otherwise.
Merit pay will increase these kinds of problems. The veterans will take the easy classes with the brightest kids. The new teachers will be banished to teach the low level classes with the toughest kids, make less money than the veterans, and quit.
Utah doesn't need to be forcing more young teachers out the door. We need all the help we can get.
So where have they been hiding this money?
Sparkes22 | 3:53 a.m. June 27, 2008
So what you're saying Anonymous is that all teachers are above average?
Comments continue below
Teaching should be a profession | 4:35 a.m. June 27, 2008
Anonymous is wrong. Merit pay is a good idea.
It needs to be developed in consultation with our teachers, administrators, parents and student and should reward teachers who are willing to mentor newer teachers, are willing to work in rural and inner-city schools that are struggling and are willing to take on additional assignments and roles outside the classroom in addition to receive more education and training in teaching methodology.
In this I agree with Barack Obama and disagree with John McCain whose view of what merit pay can be is limited. I believe the only reason teachers have been opposed to merit pay in the past is because of the motive behind it (conservatives).
It isn't intended to reward good teachers or improve teaching quality instead it's was intended to punish teachers who often work in difficult circumstances. Once they realize that merit-pay is in their best interest and provides a long-term career for them they will favor it.
This is why we must get away from the idea that there are "bad teachers" instead of teachers who haven't been taught, mentored and received the additional training they need to raise in their careers. It's time for merit pay!
It needs to be developed in consultation with our teachers, administrators, parents and student and should reward teachers who are willing to mentor newer teachers, are willing to work in rural and inner-city schools that are struggling and are willing to take on additional assignments and roles outside the classroom in addition to receive more education and training in teaching methodology.
In this I agree with Barack Obama and disagree with John McCain whose view of what merit pay can be is limited. I believe the only reason teachers have been opposed to merit pay in the past is because of the motive behind it (conservatives).
It isn't intended to reward good teachers or improve teaching quality instead it's was intended to punish teachers who often work in difficult circumstances. Once they realize that merit-pay is in their best interest and provides a long-term career for them they will favor it.
This is why we must get away from the idea that there are "bad teachers" instead of teachers who haven't been taught, mentored and received the additional training they need to raise in their careers. It's time for merit pay!
Susan | 4:59 a.m. June 27, 2008
The problem with Utah is they pay their administrators fifty percent more than
the top paid teacher. If you don't believe it got to Utahsrighttoknow.com .
This is absurd. In California, the principal only gets about ten thousand more
than the top paid teacher! This way the money is more evenly distributed. This
is how it should be.
Merit pay is a good idea in theory but it is too political in nature!
Merit pay is a good idea in theory but it is too political in nature!
GWB | 5:26 a.m. June 27, 2008
I love the statement "In a perfect world, people would be paid like rodeo
cowboys. Do the job, perform well, and you get a check. Mess up, then we'll
see you down the line."
Can we apply this to CEO's too? Increase revenues, keep employees happy, keep the stock price steady, you get paid.
Lay off workers because you can't run the business well enough to make a profit without firing people, you get to be the first one to get the pinkslip.
On teachers, why do we pay them so little? You might think that the people entrusted with the scholastic health of our kids would be paid in a manner similar to the people who care for their physical health.
We are willing to pay doctors hundred of thousands a year, but teahers who ensure scholastic health and future we only pay $30-50,000???
If we want the best people as teachers, in our free market system, we must provide enough of a financial incentive for the smartest people to become teachers instead of Doctors or getting the MBA.
Can we apply this to CEO's too? Increase revenues, keep employees happy, keep the stock price steady, you get paid.
Lay off workers because you can't run the business well enough to make a profit without firing people, you get to be the first one to get the pinkslip.
On teachers, why do we pay them so little? You might think that the people entrusted with the scholastic health of our kids would be paid in a manner similar to the people who care for their physical health.
We are willing to pay doctors hundred of thousands a year, but teahers who ensure scholastic health and future we only pay $30-50,000???
If we want the best people as teachers, in our free market system, we must provide enough of a financial incentive for the smartest people to become teachers instead of Doctors or getting the MBA.
Rick | 6:10 a.m. June 27, 2008
Anonymous, are you being sarcastic? Of course there are bad teachers---I had
some of them. There are quite a few bad teacher too, many who got into the
profession because they couldn't do anything else and really don't
like kids anyway (By the way, I AM a teacher, so I know there are also many
wonderful selfless teachers).
I think merit pay is a good idea, as long as the regulation of it is good. It will be important to remember that teachers do not have as much influence on kids as we think--most of the success of students comes from their parents and home life. But if we can keep that in mind and not attribute all student successes and failures to teachers, then maybe we can develop a process for evaluating which teachers really are very skilled in their craft, and reward them for their efforts.
I think merit pay is a good idea, as long as the regulation of it is good. It will be important to remember that teachers do not have as much influence on kids as we think--most of the success of students comes from their parents and home life. But if we can keep that in mind and not attribute all student successes and failures to teachers, then maybe we can develop a process for evaluating which teachers really are very skilled in their craft, and reward them for their efforts.
Raise Teacher Pay Period | 6:37 a.m. June 27, 2008
In a perfect world, bosses would have a clue. Given that too many bosses
don't, merit pay has great potential to be too unfair. It is possible for
a certain teacher to be assigned more than their share of troubled students.
The DoD education system that serves the military doesn't have merit pay.
What they do have is teachers who do not have an education degree. They have
degrees in the actual subject that they teach. They are also paid very well,
from 60k to about 75k per year. They value their jobs, they are glad to be
there, they aren't kept in near poverty so they can concentrate on their
jobs. They are respected.
Utah would do well not to be so cheap with its teachers. Forget Merit Pay until or unless the base pay is raised to a professional level. And for goodness sake lets require teachers who come into the system who are required to teach math to know math. Many teachers do, but too many teachers have weak math skills. A degree in math education is not an indication of a good math education. Require a degree in actual math.
Utah would do well not to be so cheap with its teachers. Forget Merit Pay until or unless the base pay is raised to a professional level. And for goodness sake lets require teachers who come into the system who are required to teach math to know math. Many teachers do, but too many teachers have weak math skills. A degree in math education is not an indication of a good math education. Require a degree in actual math.
Half-full | 6:36 a.m. June 27, 2008
Lower class sizes first to a realistic manageable number, then establish a Merit
or Performance Pay. With large class sizes, the teacher is working too much on
crowd control to determine teaching performance.
Dave | 8:16 a.m. June 27, 2008
Why should teachers be the only government workers whose pay is tied to
performance?
Kirk Rasband | 8:19 a.m. June 27, 2008
The rodeo analogy used in this editorial is silly and meaningless. You can
maybe start to talk about merit pay once class sizes have been reduced to
something manageable. Kids are not "widgets" where high test scores
can be assured. Every child is different, has different challenges and it is
unfair to measure teachers in such a subjective matter. I must say this
editorial is superficial and unsubstantive.
Anonymous | 8:33 a.m. June 27, 2008
There are no degrees in science education that I know of. If there are, I
don't know any teachers that have one. We all majored in physics, biology,
or chemistry.
I majored in Biology and took all of the same classes as the pre-med majors except for a few of the advanced anatomy classes. I definitely could make more money with my biology degree by working for the fed. govt.
After 16 years I still love to teach but often wonder what I got myself into financially...
I majored in Biology and took all of the same classes as the pre-med majors except for a few of the advanced anatomy classes. I definitely could make more money with my biology degree by working for the fed. govt.
After 16 years I still love to teach but often wonder what I got myself into financially...
uncannygunman | 8:34 a.m. June 27, 2008
"But haven't teachers been grading the students subjectively on
performance since the School of Athens? Don't drama teachers, shop teachers
� even coaches � hand out grades based
on their own evaluation of a student's work and capability? The system has
worked well for students. With oversight and some clear-cut criteria, it should
work equally as well for teachers."
This has to be one of the dumbest analogies I've ever seen. What's next, not paying prison guards at all because their charges are there involuntarily? I think a person's paycheck needs to be evaluated a little more rigorously than a seventh-grade gym grade.
This has to be one of the dumbest analogies I've ever seen. What's next, not paying prison guards at all because their charges are there involuntarily? I think a person's paycheck needs to be evaluated a little more rigorously than a seventh-grade gym grade.
Slim | 9:29 a.m. June 27, 2008
Merit pay doesn't exist anywhere. This ridiculous notion that people in
business are "paid for performance" needs to be put to rest. They are
paid based on who their friends are and where they went to school . . . period!
I've been in the business world for 20 years and KNOW THIS FOR A FACT. I
don't know how to pay schoolteachers for performance. Nobody does.
Prediction | 9:39 a.m. June 27, 2008
Fine, go ahead, do merit pay, change curriculum, inservice teachers more, make
more hoops to jump through; just don't be shocked when the end results are
the same.
Stewart | 10:02 a.m. June 27, 2008
Since teacher pay is public information, how would parents feel whose little
darlings are placed in an average teacher, or below average teacher's
class? (Maybe we could just evaluate most of the teachers as above average??)
Since administrators usually let the squeaky wheel have the grease, the squeaky
wheel parents will get their "special" children into the high
performance teacher's class. I wonder how the rest of quiet parents will
take that? There goes the neighborhood or ward.
It would be interesting. By the way don't give me, we'll draw out names, because the squeaky wheel parents won't tolerate that where their "special" children are concerned. Worst of all who gets the new untested teacher? I should have been fired that first year, but after making mistakes I feel I was successful in following years. The more years that I taught the fewer mistakes that I made, and I feel the wiser I became. There is more to this than simply evaluating teachers.
It would be interesting. By the way don't give me, we'll draw out names, because the squeaky wheel parents won't tolerate that where their "special" children are concerned. Worst of all who gets the new untested teacher? I should have been fired that first year, but after making mistakes I feel I was successful in following years. The more years that I taught the fewer mistakes that I made, and I feel the wiser I became. There is more to this than simply evaluating teachers.
Even Keel | 10:02 a.m. June 27, 2008
I am not opposed to a merit system. Unfortunately, for a merit system to work
the base pay must a "livable salary". Absent that there really is no
incentive. A little research on the editors part would reveal that even rodeo
cowboy's have farms or ranches to meet their basic needs. It is
interesting to note that the legistature who would like to see a merit system,
doesn't want one for themselves. After the voucher debacle I can
understand why. The other issue, one that can be solved is how to set up the
system so that it is equitable across the board. Performance based on test
scores fails to take into account how much parents, yes the most important link
in any education, are involved and assisting at home. Socioeconomic issues will
also play into performance. In a perfect world that would not be true, but this
is far from a perfect world. Best plan, involve parents, teachers and
administrators but keep the meddling from the legislature to a minimum.
Tipping system | 10:12 a.m. June 27, 2008
The State should create a tipping system where parents can log on to a secure
state website and give a anonymous tax-deductible tip to a teacher. Anonymous
means kids whose parents tip would not receive any special priviledges, but it
would allow for parents to acknowledge and support those teachers they believe
are making a difference in the lives of the kids
Jud | 10:11 a.m. June 27, 2008
Merit pay for teachers should be based on a very simple system. Give students a
pre-test and a post-test. Simple. The more improvement they show over the
baseline, the more rewards to the teacher. But the students must be motivated to
succeed, too--that means eliminating social promotion and the parental pressure
to give Johnny an "A" to increase his self-esteem even if he
didn't earn it....
Lionheart | 10:29 a.m. June 27, 2008
As usual the answer is somewhere in the middle. High achievement should be
rewarded. Gold brickers and poor teacher should shown the door. That's
the problem, how do you get rid of the bad ones? I don't want schools and
teachers to start looking like stressed-out investment bankers at the stock
market.
To GWB: The CEO has much greater incentive to perform well. Getting your head cut off with an inglorious premature end to your career, and far less compensation keeps those nasty CEO guys awake at night. You are hearing about the guys who "failed" and got publicly cashiered out.
To GWB: The CEO has much greater incentive to perform well. Getting your head cut off with an inglorious premature end to your career, and far less compensation keeps those nasty CEO guys awake at night. You are hearing about the guys who "failed" and got publicly cashiered out.
Wrong, Lionheart | 10:55 a.m. June 27, 2008
CEOs and boards exist to protect each other's backsides. VERY few CEOs are
ever punished for anything; most get huge benefits and payouts regardless of
their performance. Often enough they're even rewarded for failure -- e.g.
Nardelli at Home Depot or Rick Wagoner at GM who just saw his pay go up by 2/3
even though GM lost billions last year. Teachers are powerless little cogs who
will never get more than a pittance. Merit pay will be a couple of hundred bucks
here and there. It's all a power game from beginning to end.
Chuck | 11:01 a.m. June 27, 2008
Your ending statement says that you want to pay gold teachers the gold and get
rid of those not worth it. The question now is, if you get rid of the
"bad" teachers, are you ready to pay ALL the good ones what they are
worth???
Or is this just another hold-a-carrot-out-that-only-a-few-can-get trick to keep everyone else thinking that maybe they can get it too? Cause that's all that most merit pay plans have been in the past.
Or is this just another hold-a-carrot-out-that-only-a-few-can-get trick to keep everyone else thinking that maybe they can get it too? Cause that's all that most merit pay plans have been in the past.
GWB | 12:41 p.m. June 27, 2008
Lionheart: you say "Getting your head cut off with an inglorious premature
end to your career, and far less compensation keeps those nasty CEO guys awake
at night. You are hearing about the guys who "failed" and got publicly
cashiered out."
How about Carly Fiorina? She failed at Hewlett Packard and was eventually forced out by shareholders.
What does she get for her shame?
To be a lead Economic Advisor to John McCain.
How about Carly Fiorina? She failed at Hewlett Packard and was eventually forced out by shareholders.
What does she get for her shame?
To be a lead Economic Advisor to John McCain.
Justin | 1:04 p.m. June 27, 2008
I like how this article about education uses the phrase "It's
unchartered territory", which is a phrase that doesn't really mean
anything. The phrase that should have been used is "uncharted
territory", which describes territory that has not been mapped (or
charted).
"Unchartered" isn't a word I can find in any dictionary.
"Unchartered" isn't a word I can find in any dictionary.
Geezer | 1:07 p.m. June 27, 2008
"Susan" is dead right about Utah's penchant for wasting money on
administration; often "bad" teachers are taken out of the classroom
and given administrative jobs. "Kirk Rasband" and
"uncannygunman" are right about your attempt at analogy; rodeo and
teaching are incomparable---maybe your English teachers should be fired for
failing to teach you what an analogy is? "Jud" is just foolish;
children are not homogeneous pieces that fit into a machine---some are brilliant
and some are as clueless as Jud.
The fatal flaw of the perennial "merit pay" idea is that no one ever proposes a rational and fair method of determining "merit." What is "merit" in teaching? What are the criteria? Who decides? Administrators who are not competent to teach? Legislators? Newspaper editors? [The only people qualified to assess teachers are experienced teachers, and it will be a cold day in Hades when teachers are allowed to determine their own fates.]
If you truly believe merit pay is a good idea, I suggest you refund some of your salary to the Deseret News because this editorial gets an "F" from me.
The fatal flaw of the perennial "merit pay" idea is that no one ever proposes a rational and fair method of determining "merit." What is "merit" in teaching? What are the criteria? Who decides? Administrators who are not competent to teach? Legislators? Newspaper editors? [The only people qualified to assess teachers are experienced teachers, and it will be a cold day in Hades when teachers are allowed to determine their own fates.]
If you truly believe merit pay is a good idea, I suggest you refund some of your salary to the Deseret News because this editorial gets an "F" from me.
Thank You DN | 1:12 p.m. June 27, 2008
At last the dialog is changing. For too many years, the only PC solution to
education was throwing more money at it. Now, FINALLY!, there is some
acknowledgement that teacher quality and competency are important as well. One
other thing missing from the discussion is the role of the family (culture,
demogrpahics, income, etc) in educational success. The educational-industrial
complex has created a monster by assuming itself to be the end-all, be-all of
education. One can not be in complete control of the inputs and process but
unaccountable for the outcome. That is the unfortunate corner into which they
have painted themselves. Merit pay is a great step forward. Perhaps the new
east-Jordan district will be bold enough to try it and a few other innovative
ideas.
Hey Geezer | 1:54 p.m. June 27, 2008
This is Jud. I taught high school for 12 years and administered pre and
post-tests to thousands of students and measured their progress when NO ONE ELSE
CARED about it. I adjusted my teaching accordingly and kept getting better
results every year. It works; I've seen it and done it, your name-calling
notwithstanding.
lovetoteach | 2:03 p.m. June 27, 2008
Jud said in essence to give students a pre and a post test and base the teacher reward on improvement over the baseline. My colleague teaches severely disabled students and the progress is there, but at times minimal.Some students work all year to maintain skills due to seizures or degenerative conditions. In such a scenerio she would receive no "reward" despite her typical 55-60 hour work week. How fair is that?
I agree there needs to be reform but have yet to see a viable approach.
Pay based on performance is touchy-would we suggest we pay a doctor based on the results of a physical? If we are healthy he gets a fat bonus but if we are ill to any degree it is pro-rated based on the condidtion we have.
We teach all as they come-hungry,homeless, no English, abused and neglected, ready to learn, bright, delayed and ths list goes on.
How do we judge the quality of a teacher?
McCain appoints complete failure | 3:50 p.m. June 27, 2008
GWB,
"How about Carly Fiorina? She failed at Hewlett Packard and was eventually forced out by shareholders.
What does she get for her shame?
To be a lead Economic Advisor to John McCain."
This was poor judgment on John McCain's part and if we combine it with him saying that he is not strong on the economy then we have all the evidence we need to know that he is unqualified to be President since he would appoint someone who was FIRED for INABILITY to do her job. They gave her over $20 million when they fired her as part of her severance packaged. I wish I would get that kind of severance package when I'm fired for being a complete failure like Carly.
"How about Carly Fiorina? She failed at Hewlett Packard and was eventually forced out by shareholders.
What does she get for her shame?
To be a lead Economic Advisor to John McCain."
This was poor judgment on John McCain's part and if we combine it with him saying that he is not strong on the economy then we have all the evidence we need to know that he is unqualified to be President since he would appoint someone who was FIRED for INABILITY to do her job. They gave her over $20 million when they fired her as part of her severance packaged. I wish I would get that kind of severance package when I'm fired for being a complete failure like Carly.
Cart Before the Horse | 3:50 p.m. June 27, 2008
The legislature has this backwards. Before they can award teachers more money
based on merit, they first need to significantly reduce class sizes so teachers
can actually focus on teaching rather than crowd control!
Jud | 4:01 p.m. June 27, 2008
It's easy to measure progress from a baseline. If School A has a low
baseline (possibly for demographic reasons), decide in advance what a reasonable
improvement should be and then reward teachers for meeting it. Teachers at
School B with a wealthy demographic shouldn't be rewarded unless they show
proportional improvement. Teachers of disabled students likewise. Decide
what's possible and then reward accordingly.
To lovetoteach | 4:04 p.m. June 27, 2008
You judge the quality of teacher on outcomes. If there's no improvement on
standard tests, then the teacher didn't do her job. If there's no
improvement in measurable competencies, then the teacher didn't do her job.
If the kids can't do algebra any better than they could when she started
with them, she didn't do her job. Why is it so difficult to judge the
quality of a teacher when we can judge the quality of everything else in life by
outcomes?
Anonymous | 4:37 p.m. June 27, 2008
Dear Utah Teacher:
You stated:" You mean there is $20 million that could have been going for teacher salaries all along? Where have they been hiding it? Why have they been holding out?"
The $20M came from the Utah State Office of Education's reserve account. The legislature reclaimed it to distribute for teacher compensation, rather than having the USOE and state board sit on it.
You stated:" You mean there is $20 million that could have been going for teacher salaries all along? Where have they been hiding it? Why have they been holding out?"
The $20M came from the Utah State Office of Education's reserve account. The legislature reclaimed it to distribute for teacher compensation, rather than having the USOE and state board sit on it.
Anonymous | 5:25 p.m. June 27, 2008
The problem is:
Teachers are not treated like other professions.
There should NOT be tenure.
(what is better motivation for doing you job well, or atleast not screwing up, than the threat of being fired, everyone else must deal with that possibility!)
There should BE bonuses for outstanding work.
And if it was privatized teachers could be making a lot more money!
Now that is real change, and not just lip flapping.
Teachers are not treated like other professions.
There should NOT be tenure.
(what is better motivation for doing you job well, or atleast not screwing up, than the threat of being fired, everyone else must deal with that possibility!)
There should BE bonuses for outstanding work.
And if it was privatized teachers could be making a lot more money!
Now that is real change, and not just lip flapping.
Chuck | 5:45 p.m. June 27, 2008
It's so easy to say just pay based on improvement in test scores. But it
puts it all on the teacher with none of the responsibility on the student or
parents. Kids (and parents) are real human beings! They think. They choose,
whether to do the work of learning or not. If they choose, because the parents
are getting a divorce, or something else, not to pay attention or not to do the
work, now the teacher gets blamed and hurt financially. AND IT HAD NOTHING TO
DO WITH HOW THE TEACHER WAS TEACHING!!! Kids aren't wigets! They're
part of the equation, a bigger part than the teacher in determining whether or
not they learn. So are the parents. When are we going to learn that!
Anonymous | 6:33 p.m. June 27, 2008
I can just see my foreign students that don't speak english being forced to
take a test so I can get more pay.
We already try and have them take the end of level science test without speaking english. Is it a wonder they typically score about 25%? You have a 1 out of 4 chance when there are four answers.
Then you have the 20% or so of the students that are so sick of ALL the testing that they make designs on their answer sheets. How much extra pay would that get me?
If parents and students don't care, ( a vast majority do but there are also some that don't) how do you penalize a teacher that is working hard and succeeding with the kids that want to work and learn but has no success with the slackers?
We already try and have them take the end of level science test without speaking english. Is it a wonder they typically score about 25%? You have a 1 out of 4 chance when there are four answers.
Then you have the 20% or so of the students that are so sick of ALL the testing that they make designs on their answer sheets. How much extra pay would that get me?
If parents and students don't care, ( a vast majority do but there are also some that don't) how do you penalize a teacher that is working hard and succeeding with the kids that want to work and learn but has no success with the slackers?
Orem Parent | 6:36 p.m. June 27, 2008
Any teacher that shows up to work with 7th grade students MERITS all the pay we
can send their way!
lovetoteach | 10:44 p.m. June 27, 2008
Amen Chuck!!!!!
Amen Orem Parent!!!
Amen Orem Parent!!!
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