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FLDS grand jury ends for the day
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realitycheck | 5:57 p.m. June 25, 2008
now that's funny, Hey now 5:37pm. Because I was answering From the Creek,
who asked what their children were being denied. So I was explaining, via
example.
And again, no one from the FLDS wants to answer, they (you) just get indignant and mad. I'm not demanding anything. I'm telling them they are bad and abusive parents. And explaining why. I've asked the questions before and gotten no answer - it doesn't suprise me that it is the same this time.
If you don't like being called bad parents, then explain how you handle the simple, everyday example given so we can understand. Otherwise we label you as you appear... really really bad parents that care much more about your religion than you care about your own children. (Maybe it's because you have so many children they begin to not really matter anymore - you can always have more that perhaps will "conform" rather than "escape".)
And again, no one from the FLDS wants to answer, they (you) just get indignant and mad. I'm not demanding anything. I'm telling them they are bad and abusive parents. And explaining why. I've asked the questions before and gotten no answer - it doesn't suprise me that it is the same this time.
If you don't like being called bad parents, then explain how you handle the simple, everyday example given so we can understand. Otherwise we label you as you appear... really really bad parents that care much more about your religion than you care about your own children. (Maybe it's because you have so many children they begin to not really matter anymore - you can always have more that perhaps will "conform" rather than "escape".)
Dee Ex 7 | 6:00 p.m. June 25, 2008
The FLDS obey a convicted child sex abuser as a prophet. They do no tchose who
they marry. Their flase prophet decided for them. If they do not exercise the
free agency not to break our laws then they must pay the consequences.
Comments continue below
Cats | 6:10 p.m. June 25, 2008
Anyone who knows anything about Short Creek and the way the FLDS operate knows
that these women and children have NO choice. They are "placed" in
marriages, given whatever education (or lack thereof) they are allowed to have
and are told exactly what to do. They are given the privilege of having a
fraction of a husband while their husband enjoy his own personal harem. They
are never given a choice of anything except to follow their "priesthood
head." Free agency does not exist. I hope these poor people can finally
get a chance at a life.
FROM THE CREEK: I can't believe somebody is actually bragging about having a GED. Is that supposed to be your persuasive argument that the FLDS educate their people? Please have the courage to face the truth. Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
FROM THE CREEK: I can't believe somebody is actually bragging about having a GED. Is that supposed to be your persuasive argument that the FLDS educate their people? Please have the courage to face the truth. Denial is NOT a river in Egypt.
Not the only ones | 6:12 p.m. June 25, 2008
I'm not FLDS and don't live in Utah--in fact, I've lived from the
Pacific Northwest to the East Coast and many places in between.
There are other more-or-less communal, conservative religious sects (I refuse to use the c-word just because I don't believe the way they do) in addition to the FLDS. Many of them choose and educate for a less technical way of life than we do. And, yes, they encourage their children to follow those teachings. Many of the sects are, or were in the very recent past, quite authoritarian and even patriarchial (please, don't let's start on that issue). Some of them do shun those who depart from the teachings. One man I knew was avoiding his bishop because he'd bought a tractor with rubber tires on it--if the bishop had told him to get rid of it and he refused, he could have been excommunicated. His own family would have been forbidden to even eat at the same table with him.
So, the issue really is polygamy--complicated by underage marriages. If polygamy were legal, we'd have to change ages of consent all over this country. The rest of the issues are just about a different lifestyle.
There are other more-or-less communal, conservative religious sects (I refuse to use the c-word just because I don't believe the way they do) in addition to the FLDS. Many of them choose and educate for a less technical way of life than we do. And, yes, they encourage their children to follow those teachings. Many of the sects are, or were in the very recent past, quite authoritarian and even patriarchial (please, don't let's start on that issue). Some of them do shun those who depart from the teachings. One man I knew was avoiding his bishop because he'd bought a tractor with rubber tires on it--if the bishop had told him to get rid of it and he refused, he could have been excommunicated. His own family would have been forbidden to even eat at the same table with him.
So, the issue really is polygamy--complicated by underage marriages. If polygamy were legal, we'd have to change ages of consent all over this country. The rest of the issues are just about a different lifestyle.
Violations of your | 6:11 p.m. June 25, 2008
Constitutional rights.
Who do you report this offence to ????
Not the cops
They do not know the Constitution or Civil Rights
The Judges are ignorant as well in Utah.
We have lost America
The criminals are in charge
Who do you report this offence to ????
Not the cops
They do not know the Constitution or Civil Rights
The Judges are ignorant as well in Utah.
We have lost America
The criminals are in charge
David | 6:13 p.m. June 25, 2008
Dee Ex 7,
Yes they sure do. And this is America, and just because you associate with a person, a known criminal, doesn't mean you are guilty. They cannot come and take your kids away.
How many Roman Catholics in Boston were following their Bishop who was an alleged accomplice to how many? now convicted child molesting priests.. who were also their leaders? And yet MA (rightfully) did NOT take their children.
Why? Because this is the USA. Associating with someone is NOT enough to be guilty in a court of law, regardless of what the court of opinion has to say. If we were all better americans and Christians, we would align our court of public opinion better with the court of law.
Yes they sure do. And this is America, and just because you associate with a person, a known criminal, doesn't mean you are guilty. They cannot come and take your kids away.
How many Roman Catholics in Boston were following their Bishop who was an alleged accomplice to how many? now convicted child molesting priests.. who were also their leaders? And yet MA (rightfully) did NOT take their children.
Why? Because this is the USA. Associating with someone is NOT enough to be guilty in a court of law, regardless of what the court of opinion has to say. If we were all better americans and Christians, we would align our court of public opinion better with the court of law.
Bubba J | 6:16 p.m. June 25, 2008
I'll bet Al Gore has a college education. Does that mean he's more
intelligent than those who do not?
Is it possible that a person would want to choose not to go to college?
According to the logic on some of these posts, Einstein was and inbred, uneducated idiot, but Al Gore is a role model for all.
Maybe I drank too much beer.....
Is it possible that a person would want to choose not to go to college?
According to the logic on some of these posts, Einstein was and inbred, uneducated idiot, but Al Gore is a role model for all.
Maybe I drank too much beer.....
In the past | 6:30 p.m. June 25, 2008
It's an interesting sociological change that well within the last 100 years
in America, and certainly in England, men weren't expected to marry until
well into their thirties, or even forties, especially in the upper classes.
BUT, when they did marry, they most often chose girls just "coming
out" or "making their debut"--girls between 17 and about 20. And
nobody thought that was weird or perverted--it was considered very sensible--the
man had "sowed his wild oats" and was financially stable. His wife
was young enough to have many years for child-bearing.
Now we don't want girls to marry that young, but we allow and expect them to be sexually active at what seems to me like rather young ages. Of course, if they get pregnant, they can just go (without parental permission--thanks Planned Parenthood) and get an abortion.
I'm not sure the WHOLE world isn't nuts, not just the FLDS.
Now we don't want girls to marry that young, but we allow and expect them to be sexually active at what seems to me like rather young ages. Of course, if they get pregnant, they can just go (without parental permission--thanks Planned Parenthood) and get an abortion.
I'm not sure the WHOLE world isn't nuts, not just the FLDS.
Cats | 6:34 p.m. June 25, 2008
These people who are defending the FLDS and their way of life just clearly do
not know what's going on. This is not a matter of teaching children. This
is a matter of abuse, control total lack of moral agency. The FLDS also find it
perfectly acceptable to lie when it's expedient. The authorities are doing
their best to try to prosecute crimes--not persecute a religion. I know that
you who are defending them think that you are standing up for the Constitution,
but you really just don't know what's going on.
Wow!! | 6:49 p.m. June 25, 2008
Some of you people on here are just taking the cake today!! From the Creek
acting as if that GED is a Bachelor's degree or something. That something
to lift up to the heaven's. There is a saying I will put it in bold so it
can sink in. BIRDS OF A FEATHER FLOCK TOGETHER!!!!
Warren Jeffs is your prophet a convicted sex offender. He is the bird your the flock it's easy to see why you do what you do to your poor children. Jeffs says Ya! You say ok. I will put more up on this in my blog later.
fldsraw
at wordpress
Warren Jeffs is your prophet a convicted sex offender. He is the bird your the flock it's easy to see why you do what you do to your poor children. Jeffs says Ya! You say ok. I will put more up on this in my blog later.
fldsraw
at wordpress
Thanks for the laughs | 6:52 p.m. June 25, 2008
Reality check says: "It is also the job of the parents to provide an
oportunity to be successful. And since you people give only 8th grade educations
and do not allow people to have any property, how are they to leave and prosper?
Especially when they are afraid of everyone."
Flora Jessop was raised FLDS and yet she became a successful topless dancer and cocaine addict and even tried unmarried motherhood. Now she is a media presence and advisor to Congress on the evils of her upbringing. If the FLDS can produce that kind of woman they must be doing something right, right?
Flora Jessop was raised FLDS and yet she became a successful topless dancer and cocaine addict and even tried unmarried motherhood. Now she is a media presence and advisor to Congress on the evils of her upbringing. If the FLDS can produce that kind of woman they must be doing something right, right?
From the Creek | 7:09 p.m. June 25, 2008
realitycheck,
Read on the truthwillprevail site about the truth of Flora Jessop. Of course I would support my child if he or she wanted a different path in life than I. I may not agree with their choices, but it's there's to make. If the became bitter and hateful, that's a slightly different story, but I would still never wish any harm to them and would let them live their lives however they see is best.
The only reason I mentioned the GED was to refute the lie that we don't educate past 8th grade, not as bragging rights about how "smart" I am. In my opinion, a piece of paper doesn't really measure your level of intelligence. If I needed to take a college course for my work, I'd do it, get it done with, and do everything in my power to pass with a high grade.
I had written a longer reply, but the browser crashed and I lost it. This will suffice for now.
Read on the truthwillprevail site about the truth of Flora Jessop. Of course I would support my child if he or she wanted a different path in life than I. I may not agree with their choices, but it's there's to make. If the became bitter and hateful, that's a slightly different story, but I would still never wish any harm to them and would let them live their lives however they see is best.
The only reason I mentioned the GED was to refute the lie that we don't educate past 8th grade, not as bragging rights about how "smart" I am. In my opinion, a piece of paper doesn't really measure your level of intelligence. If I needed to take a college course for my work, I'd do it, get it done with, and do everything in my power to pass with a high grade.
I had written a longer reply, but the browser crashed and I lost it. This will suffice for now.
Bubba J | 7:11 p.m. June 25, 2008
Don't get me wrong, Warren Jeffs is a slime ball, but the label
"convicted sex offender"?
Recently there was a news story where a stupid kid barely 18 streaked at a graduation ceremony. He was promptly charged with lewdness in front of a minor. If "convicted" he will have to register as a sex offender. Is he a sex offender really? Or just technically?
Was Jeffs convicted of an actual crime or a statutory crime? Just to label him and thereby incriminate his people because of his "statutory" conviction (one that was because of a shady juror deal, no less) doesn't mean the dude is a pedophile.
I don't like Jeffs or his theology, but we have to be careful to not be stereotypical and remember that our revolutionary forefathers were once "statutory" terrorists.
Maybe I drank too much beer.....
Recently there was a news story where a stupid kid barely 18 streaked at a graduation ceremony. He was promptly charged with lewdness in front of a minor. If "convicted" he will have to register as a sex offender. Is he a sex offender really? Or just technically?
Was Jeffs convicted of an actual crime or a statutory crime? Just to label him and thereby incriminate his people because of his "statutory" conviction (one that was because of a shady juror deal, no less) doesn't mean the dude is a pedophile.
I don't like Jeffs or his theology, but we have to be careful to not be stereotypical and remember that our revolutionary forefathers were once "statutory" terrorists.
Maybe I drank too much beer.....
Lilathe | 7:27 p.m. June 25, 2008
Rumors of the FLDS not being allowed to have college educations were weirdly
enough started by Carolyn Jessop who got her teaching degree while in the FLDS.
Wonder how that happened? How were at least 4 mothers working as RN's after
they left the ranch to follow their children?
Why oh why oh why is there a college in the twin towns at Short Creek that caters mostly to FLDS women? They are not allowed a college education why on earth do they possibly need a college?
At least three women interviewed had doctorates. Those are just the educational levels that were made public by newspaper reporters or by court documents.
Why oh why oh why is there a college in the twin towns at Short Creek that caters mostly to FLDS women? They are not allowed a college education why on earth do they possibly need a college?
At least three women interviewed had doctorates. Those are just the educational levels that were made public by newspaper reporters or by court documents.
a mother | 7:28 p.m. June 25, 2008
To realitycheck. Please be careful of what you say about large families. Do
you really think having many children means they don't matter to you as
individuals? I have 7 children and each one of them is loved and matters (one
adopted). My sister has 11 children (one adopted). Another sister has 9 (two
adopted). My cousin has 14 children (9 are adopted). My point is - numbers
don't mean less love - they mean more. The issue is sexual abuse of young
girls.
Lilathe | 7:31 p.m. June 25, 2008
One other thing, the children were not "home schooled" at the ranch
but rather attended a private school with an accredited curriculum. The teachers
were all accredited teachers with teaching degrees.
How on earth did these women get teaching degrees when they were not allowed to attend college?
How on earth did these women get teaching degrees when they were not allowed to attend college?
R | 7:39 p.m. June 25, 2008
Cats says:
//The FLDS also find it perfectly acceptable to lie when it's expedient.//
In all the discussion of this, I haven't come across very many proven FLDS lies. I have, however, come across many by CPS and other authorities involved - including, most recently, the lies about Teresa Jeffs having a baby.
//The FLDS also find it perfectly acceptable to lie when it's expedient.//
In all the discussion of this, I haven't come across very many proven FLDS lies. I have, however, come across many by CPS and other authorities involved - including, most recently, the lies about Teresa Jeffs having a baby.
L. G. KIRKPATRICK | 7:46 p.m. June 25, 2008
Does anyone here remember what the subject of the main article is? If I remember
correctly, it is "FLDS grand jury ends for the day".
Not even ONE posting on this comments thread relates to the subject/topic.
Could someone please let me know if there are any constructive or potential actions announced by the Schleicher County Grand Jury? I live in Florida and sometimes it takes a while for news to get here. (I did hear somewhere, though, that there is a second session of the Grand Jury scheduled for sometime in July.)
THANX!
Not even ONE posting on this comments thread relates to the subject/topic.
Could someone please let me know if there are any constructive or potential actions announced by the Schleicher County Grand Jury? I live in Florida and sometimes it takes a while for news to get here. (I did hear somewhere, though, that there is a second session of the Grand Jury scheduled for sometime in July.)
THANX!
David | 7:56 p.m. June 25, 2008
The grand jury meets once a month to consider charges. This is the second time
the grand jury has met to consider charges against the FLDS. This is the second
time they have given out NO indictments. Not one.
Its still possible, of course, that they will next month. but the more time that passes the less likely it will be. At this point they HAVE all of the "evidence", the vast majority of the DNA evidence is back.
It really does not look good for the state of TX, and the FLDS really hasn't even started on the legal offensive yet.
Its still possible, of course, that they will next month. but the more time that passes the less likely it will be. At this point they HAVE all of the "evidence", the vast majority of the DNA evidence is back.
It really does not look good for the state of TX, and the FLDS really hasn't even started on the legal offensive yet.
L. G. KIRKPATRICK | 8:01 p.m. June 25, 2008
Thanx, "David | 7:56 p.m. June 25, 2008"
I appreciate the update.
I appreciate the update.
Hey now | 8:03 p.m. June 25, 2008
I know this is lost on you...I'm not flds. Don't even try that tired
ruse. I have a son studying to become a DO. Another son following a career in
Engineering, and a daughter following a legal profession. None of my children
have ever been arested or has ever used drugs. They are respectful and loving.
Don't try to impinge on my ability as a good parent.
You have been well answered many times over. So at this point you are like a rock in an empty tin can. The more empty the can, the more noise it makes.
You have been well answered many times over. So at this point you are like a rock in an empty tin can. The more empty the can, the more noise it makes.
Gal50 | 8:22 p.m. June 25, 2008
It seems that the common person does find fault with the lifestyle of the FLDS.
If all the differences balanced out - some positive, some negative, then no one
would be concerned. The kids wear inappropriate clothes for the Texas heat, but
they eat well. To this equation is added a whim of Warren Jeffs - the children
can no longer be immunized. How does an FLDS nurse, who is well aware of the
struggle for survival faced by a young child when one of these diseases strikes,
prioritize Jeff's immunization pronouncement over the welfare of her child?
Other than the forced marriage/statutory rape of the young girls, I'm not sure that any one aspect is really horrendous; it is more the sum total of all of the offensive practices that shocks people.
There are two enormous public relations problems faced by the FLDS. One is that most of the reading material available to the public is extremely negative. While the public may not believe everything, the public knows that with this much negativity, something is wrong. The second is that nobody, pro or anti comes across as truthful or credible. They all have an agenda.
Other than the forced marriage/statutory rape of the young girls, I'm not sure that any one aspect is really horrendous; it is more the sum total of all of the offensive practices that shocks people.
There are two enormous public relations problems faced by the FLDS. One is that most of the reading material available to the public is extremely negative. While the public may not believe everything, the public knows that with this much negativity, something is wrong. The second is that nobody, pro or anti comes across as truthful or credible. They all have an agenda.
Terri Dance Salisbury Missouri | 8:24 p.m. June 25, 2008
To Hey Now,
Love your posts today.
Love your posts today.
realitycheck | 8:37 p.m. June 25, 2008
sorry, Hey now - no one answered. From the Creek simply beat around the bush.
She didnt say she'd help the child go to college. She didnt say what she
would do if the girl showed up at her door with ain shorts and introduced her
non-FLDS husband and children.
no one has given an honest answer yet. They just keep saying they would "let them live their life as they see fit." Same answer every time.
We want to know what the mother would say to her daughter when she comes over for holiday dinner with her non-FLDS husband and children?
Is it really that hard of a question?
no one has given an honest answer yet. They just keep saying they would "let them live their life as they see fit." Same answer every time.
We want to know what the mother would say to her daughter when she comes over for holiday dinner with her non-FLDS husband and children?
Is it really that hard of a question?
From the Creek | 8:55 p.m. June 25, 2008
I'm not a she.
Of course I would help my child go to college if that's what he or she wanted -- financially, emotionally, whatever. Is that good enough for you?
The answer to the rest of your questions should really be the Mormon creed to "mind your own damn business." However, just to stroke your ego a little, I will answer you. I would graciously greet her & her family and have a good visit with them and hopefully we'd remain on very friendly terms.
Of course I would help my child go to college if that's what he or she wanted -- financially, emotionally, whatever. Is that good enough for you?
The answer to the rest of your questions should really be the Mormon creed to "mind your own damn business." However, just to stroke your ego a little, I will answer you. I would graciously greet her & her family and have a good visit with them and hopefully we'd remain on very friendly terms.
From the Creek | 8:59 p.m. June 25, 2008
Gal50,
I'd like to know when Warren Jeffs ever mandated that no children were to be immunized. Do you have access to teachings I don't because I don't know of any such thing. It's up to the parents to decide; some do it and some don't.
I'd like to know when Warren Jeffs ever mandated that no children were to be immunized. Do you have access to teachings I don't because I don't know of any such thing. It's up to the parents to decide; some do it and some don't.
JohnP | 8:58 p.m. June 25, 2008
Did Carolyn Jessop not go to college? She was a teacher
so somewhere along the way she attended college, right? I'm getting confused in all this media circus regarding the FDLS.
Teresa Jeffs climbs a tree!! Go girl.
reality check-Yeah you should "stop beating the drum" and perhaps "come down off your high horse".
Perhaps consult Britney Spears' mom on how children should be raised. Ask Billy Ray if Miley will survive her stardom?
There has been too many lies told about these women and children already. I wouldn't believe any bad
press they have anymore.
I'm not FDLS nor LDS and I think this is "just wrong".
Honestly I tried to make sense of this by visiting savethechild brides site. I began reading articles, I read three articles and found conflicting information in each article. I stopped reading.
so somewhere along the way she attended college, right? I'm getting confused in all this media circus regarding the FDLS.
Teresa Jeffs climbs a tree!! Go girl.
reality check-Yeah you should "stop beating the drum" and perhaps "come down off your high horse".
Perhaps consult Britney Spears' mom on how children should be raised. Ask Billy Ray if Miley will survive her stardom?
There has been too many lies told about these women and children already. I wouldn't believe any bad
press they have anymore.
I'm not FDLS nor LDS and I think this is "just wrong".
Honestly I tried to make sense of this by visiting savethechild brides site. I began reading articles, I read three articles and found conflicting information in each article. I stopped reading.
zxcvbnm | 9:03 p.m. June 25, 2008
No RC you don't have the right to raise other peoples children.........neither does the state.
The state is made op of the individuals that free people raise.
Clones of the state religion only breed more clones of the state religion.....get it.
We are a country made up of individuals raised buy individuals with the rights to act as individuals and interact as individuals and respect each other as individuals. FLDS....LDS, Catholic..Baptist....and on down the line.
Raise your own children.....let them play with mine ...but don't tell me that I have to raise my kids like yours.
Save your own kids from your percieved threats........just don't save mine. They can think for themselves.
Terri Dance Salisbury Missouri | 9:09 p.m. June 25, 2008
To Gal50 at 8:20:
Part 1
You are quite mistaken about the "appropriate" type of clothing choices for a hot sunny climate made by FLDS.
While on Army active duty in Texas summer heat I was required to wear thick full length wool socks, heavy black unvented boots, a closely woven T-shirt, full length pants tucked into the aforementioned boots,full length sleeve shirt which I rolled up or down depending on A/C or activity or out in full sun or as I was told, a belt, a hat at all times or a heavy helmet. I am grateful to the US Army for drilling into me how comfortable it was to be dressed in a way that covered up my skin as it was attended with far greater comfort than I ever had working hard outdoors -- in shorts and tank tops which I was taught by example to favor by my unfortunately trained mother and stepmother-- and helped train me to greater modesty in dress.
It also makes you really "ripped" by removing excess water weight while reducing risk of skin cancer.
Part 1
You are quite mistaken about the "appropriate" type of clothing choices for a hot sunny climate made by FLDS.
While on Army active duty in Texas summer heat I was required to wear thick full length wool socks, heavy black unvented boots, a closely woven T-shirt, full length pants tucked into the aforementioned boots,full length sleeve shirt which I rolled up or down depending on A/C or activity or out in full sun or as I was told, a belt, a hat at all times or a heavy helmet. I am grateful to the US Army for drilling into me how comfortable it was to be dressed in a way that covered up my skin as it was attended with far greater comfort than I ever had working hard outdoors -- in shorts and tank tops which I was taught by example to favor by my unfortunately trained mother and stepmother-- and helped train me to greater modesty in dress.
It also makes you really "ripped" by removing excess water weight while reducing risk of skin cancer.
mensem | 9:21 p.m. June 25, 2008
Where's Grandpa Phil when you need him...
.
Ok, I understand at some point it may be necessary for the law to intervene if children's lives are in danger due to bad parents, but is that what's going on here?
I am East coast baptist and my take has been the same from the beginning. If they broke the law- punish the law breakers. If you just disagree with how they raise their children- that is a different story.
If they want to teach their children things you disagree with- well tough. If you want to change the world, have some children of your own and teach them what you want to teach them. This is the country you live in. We all have certain freedoms that should be respected.
What happens when some liberal people try to make me look crazy for teaching my children about a Jewish man who claimed to be the Son of God?
.
Ok, I understand at some point it may be necessary for the law to intervene if children's lives are in danger due to bad parents, but is that what's going on here?
I am East coast baptist and my take has been the same from the beginning. If they broke the law- punish the law breakers. If you just disagree with how they raise their children- that is a different story.
If they want to teach their children things you disagree with- well tough. If you want to change the world, have some children of your own and teach them what you want to teach them. This is the country you live in. We all have certain freedoms that should be respected.
What happens when some liberal people try to make me look crazy for teaching my children about a Jewish man who claimed to be the Son of God?
Terri Dance Salisbury Missouri | 9:26 p.m. June 25, 2008
To Gal50
Part 2
Immunizations were no more than a product on the open market which a "free people" (as Americans once were) should have been unhindered to buy or ignore upon their own judgement, whim, and personal budget (as opposed to the collective budget of the overburdened taxpayer).
It was as offensive to proper feelings for Patrick Crimmins and his Texas authorities to force immunizations upon those FLDS they had "in care" as it is for Warren Jeffs or any government agency or public institution to dictate yea or nay.
I hope you will reconsider your defective theory put forth which was so akin to the old saying "where there is smoke, there is fire." In today's legal, moral, media frenzy world there are so many smoke machines around that the only sure means to discern truth is a clear conscience and the knowledge and sense to pray to know how to interpret its impulses.
It is of vital importance to know how to reason rather than ignorantly "declaim."
Part 2
Immunizations were no more than a product on the open market which a "free people" (as Americans once were) should have been unhindered to buy or ignore upon their own judgement, whim, and personal budget (as opposed to the collective budget of the overburdened taxpayer).
It was as offensive to proper feelings for Patrick Crimmins and his Texas authorities to force immunizations upon those FLDS they had "in care" as it is for Warren Jeffs or any government agency or public institution to dictate yea or nay.
I hope you will reconsider your defective theory put forth which was so akin to the old saying "where there is smoke, there is fire." In today's legal, moral, media frenzy world there are so many smoke machines around that the only sure means to discern truth is a clear conscience and the knowledge and sense to pray to know how to interpret its impulses.
It is of vital importance to know how to reason rather than ignorantly "declaim."
zxcvbnm | 9:36 p.m. June 25, 2008
Ah... the how to dress in the for the texas sun argument.
I was schooled by nuns and in the hot Texas heat they wore the usual black habit. When asked they said look at the Arabs,,,,in the hot sun the cotton breaths and the body is cooled by the evaporation in the breeze.
Just for a more modern analogy....I built fence today in 98 degree heat wearing jeans, a long sleeved shirt and a hat.....I have no ac and am fully aclimatized to the heat.
Texas isn't california......and dressing for the heat means protection, not dressing for a day at the beach. Ever hear of a farmers tan.
I was schooled by nuns and in the hot Texas heat they wore the usual black habit. When asked they said look at the Arabs,,,,in the hot sun the cotton breaths and the body is cooled by the evaporation in the breeze.
Just for a more modern analogy....I built fence today in 98 degree heat wearing jeans, a long sleeved shirt and a hat.....I have no ac and am fully aclimatized to the heat.
Texas isn't california......and dressing for the heat means protection, not dressing for a day at the beach. Ever hear of a farmers tan.
Terri Dance Salisbury Missouri | 9:40 p.m. June 25, 2008
to L G Kirkpatrick
Sorry for not mentioning the grand jury, I was ignoring them because they are supposed to be secret ( not sacred:)).
I do think the photos of the young woman up the tree on the grounds of the site for the event are marvelous. Her impulse to place herself above the fray is a wise one in that she really is in the same position as a "treed coon" with a bunch of hounds after her.
That's about as on topic as I can manage tonight.
Sorry for not mentioning the grand jury, I was ignoring them because they are supposed to be secret ( not sacred:)).
I do think the photos of the young woman up the tree on the grounds of the site for the event are marvelous. Her impulse to place herself above the fray is a wise one in that she really is in the same position as a "treed coon" with a bunch of hounds after her.
That's about as on topic as I can manage tonight.
Perspectives... | 10:49 p.m. June 25, 2008
Hey Reality Check-
Just curious, If your child wanted to be a drug dealer or a stripper, she turned 18, got on drugs, would you help her? Financially, emotionally?
Or would you try to dissuade her? If she was stubborn, defied you and ran away, then became a very SUCCESSFUL stripper, a very successful drug dealer, then showed up at your door with a load of drugs in her pocket, would you welcome her with open arms, even in her stripper g-string, pierced tongue, bellybutton and nipples would you welcome her in with open arms and parade her in front of your younger children as "successful". "This is what she wanted to be" you would tell them, and have a wonderful relationship with her?
Anything goes, as you said, remember?
My point is, success if relative, to Her she was successful. To most parents in America, they envisioned at her birth a much different outcome and sought to teach her by higher standards. Most would say "you're not coming into my house like that, I still have my moral standards."
Just curious, If your child wanted to be a drug dealer or a stripper, she turned 18, got on drugs, would you help her? Financially, emotionally?
Or would you try to dissuade her? If she was stubborn, defied you and ran away, then became a very SUCCESSFUL stripper, a very successful drug dealer, then showed up at your door with a load of drugs in her pocket, would you welcome her with open arms, even in her stripper g-string, pierced tongue, bellybutton and nipples would you welcome her in with open arms and parade her in front of your younger children as "successful". "This is what she wanted to be" you would tell them, and have a wonderful relationship with her?
Anything goes, as you said, remember?
My point is, success if relative, to Her she was successful. To most parents in America, they envisioned at her birth a much different outcome and sought to teach her by higher standards. Most would say "you're not coming into my house like that, I still have my moral standards."
Wow | 11:25 p.m. June 25, 2008
This is for the guy above that said they have met two times this month about the
FLDS and still no charges you need to read up a bit cuz the first time they met
they handed out 18 indictments and no it had nothing to do about the FLDS the
grand jury was for other things. DUHH
Devin K. | 11:48 p.m. June 25, 2008
Gee, I'm happy that the Jeffs girl knows how to climb a tree. She looks
like a good candidate someday for having more than one husband. She's one
tough chic!
Bartleby | 12:14 a.m. June 26, 2008
Finally, those criminal thugs, CPS, are being exposed worldwide -- more and more
people are learning that they are too powerful, too corrupt, too twisted, and
must be abolished.
There are thousands of articles, TV programs, and documentaries, exposing CPS, and people everywhere are waking up to their Gestapo tactics - stealing children from their rightful, loving parents, making up lies, fabricating evidence, giving previously happy and healthy children to abusive foster "parents" - all across America, and all for money.
Children are at least 5 times more likely to be murdered by their foster "parents" than by their real parents. And that's if you believe the statistics CPS lets out on foster care murders. CPS doesn't like any publicity, unless it's the lies they generate and perpetuate, trying to make themselves look like saviors.
How horrible to work at a job where you rip crying, screaming children from their heartbroken parents, all the while trying to pretend to the world that you are "protecting" the children.
Remember Logan Marr, and the thousands upon thousands of other innocent children CPS has destroyed, and keeps destroying, every day, somewhere in America.
There are thousands of articles, TV programs, and documentaries, exposing CPS, and people everywhere are waking up to their Gestapo tactics - stealing children from their rightful, loving parents, making up lies, fabricating evidence, giving previously happy and healthy children to abusive foster "parents" - all across America, and all for money.
Children are at least 5 times more likely to be murdered by their foster "parents" than by their real parents. And that's if you believe the statistics CPS lets out on foster care murders. CPS doesn't like any publicity, unless it's the lies they generate and perpetuate, trying to make themselves look like saviors.
How horrible to work at a job where you rip crying, screaming children from their heartbroken parents, all the while trying to pretend to the world that you are "protecting" the children.
Remember Logan Marr, and the thousands upon thousands of other innocent children CPS has destroyed, and keeps destroying, every day, somewhere in America.
zxcvbnm | 6:16 a.m. June 26, 2008
Lets just see how long it takes before some subject of the grand jury probe opens their mouth.
We got a smile from Teresa.....so the speculation can now begin on the meaning of the smile.
I bet Malonis is just sitting there waiting to answer the press with a heartfelt "no comment"
I guess everyone will have to spend the next month speculating on where Merril is.....or calling Willie names. Don't forget to call Parker a slimey lawyer.
Oh......don't forget to cry a few tears about the children, those crayon deprived little rascals.
To realitycheck | 6:32 a.m. June 26, 2008
Your free to disagree with FLDS, but take their children from them?
I've been watching this case from early on and I'm not too convinced by your assertions of forced marriage, child, abuse, deprivation, etc. (although I think I'll grant you underage marriage considering the pictures that were on the smoking gun website)
So what if the majority of FLDS don't go to college? You act like parents are abusive because kids can't exercise their "free will".
I hate to break this to you- but we all live with certain constraints that we can not control. Nobody can do whatever they want. And whatever you do has consequences.
Until it's proved in court these people are 'abusive' please stop asserting that they are and give these people the benefit of the doubt. I hope no one ever files a false complain on you and your family and you get treated the way these people are getting treated.
If you want to go save some kids, there are plenty of children from drug users and alcholics that are beaten and visibly emaciated and near death- go save them.
I've been watching this case from early on and I'm not too convinced by your assertions of forced marriage, child, abuse, deprivation, etc. (although I think I'll grant you underage marriage considering the pictures that were on the smoking gun website)
So what if the majority of FLDS don't go to college? You act like parents are abusive because kids can't exercise their "free will".
I hate to break this to you- but we all live with certain constraints that we can not control. Nobody can do whatever they want. And whatever you do has consequences.
Until it's proved in court these people are 'abusive' please stop asserting that they are and give these people the benefit of the doubt. I hope no one ever files a false complain on you and your family and you get treated the way these people are getting treated.
If you want to go save some kids, there are plenty of children from drug users and alcholics that are beaten and visibly emaciated and near death- go save them.
Emma | 8:22 a.m. June 26, 2008
I've been on vacation and it seems "reality" hasn't changed
but remains living outside reality. The FLDS might believe religiously
differently than we do, but have the same basic goals that all other people
have...that of raising their children in loving homes to be competent adults.
David | 8:31 a.m. June 26, 2008
Hey Reality Check,
You do realize that OLD MEN are allowed to many young girls in TEXAS. So is the issue really polygamy for you or old men marrying young girls which seems the legislative branch is very disinterested in? Time to change your argument. Actually I think you are just a cranky person that disagrees to see himself in print.
You do realize that OLD MEN are allowed to many young girls in TEXAS. So is the issue really polygamy for you or old men marrying young girls which seems the legislative branch is very disinterested in? Time to change your argument. Actually I think you are just a cranky person that disagrees to see himself in print.
realitycheck | 8:50 a.m. June 26, 2008
obviously you all answering for/as FLDS don't understand what is happening
to your children. If my daughter wanted to be a drug dealer? what kind of
stupid arguement is that? I said legal. I'm not talking about letting them
do whatever they want, I'm talking about them taking advantage of all this
great country has to offer in the way of opportunity.
By filling their heads with doomsday tales, you prevent them from moving on as they get older. And you don't help them become independant. Why can you not support your children and allow them the world? Your goal is to have them stay in your little group forever. That goes beyond parenting and becomes confinement by control. Practically slavery. If you can't see that, then there's no hope for you. And no hope for your children.
how sad.
And I'm not trying to save the kids - couldn't even if I wanted to. And I certainly don't want the state to take them. But if just one parent opens her eyes and sees what is happening, and it helps a child, then it's worth the words. Besides, I'm allowed my opinion, even if you don't like it.
By filling their heads with doomsday tales, you prevent them from moving on as they get older. And you don't help them become independant. Why can you not support your children and allow them the world? Your goal is to have them stay in your little group forever. That goes beyond parenting and becomes confinement by control. Practically slavery. If you can't see that, then there's no hope for you. And no hope for your children.
how sad.
And I'm not trying to save the kids - couldn't even if I wanted to. And I certainly don't want the state to take them. But if just one parent opens her eyes and sees what is happening, and it helps a child, then it's worth the words. Besides, I'm allowed my opinion, even if you don't like it.
realitycheck | 9:52 a.m. June 26, 2008
well, at least they're not being beaten and starved into prostitution rings
like those kids on the news this morning. So what you do is not TERRIBLE.
It's just not fair. The fact that you teach good morals is offset by your
requirement to be confined as FLDS forever or forsake your family.
It's too bad you can't find a peaceful middle ground. You would probably have some very successful scientists, engineers, doctors, etc in your group if you did. It's not like you can't afford to send your kids to good colleges, since you could afford to spend millions of a ranch...
not trying to tell you how to raise your kids - trying to get you to perhaps see that you are preventing them from excelling in life.... And it bothers me to see good kids held back.
It's too bad you can't find a peaceful middle ground. You would probably have some very successful scientists, engineers, doctors, etc in your group if you did. It's not like you can't afford to send your kids to good colleges, since you could afford to spend millions of a ranch...
not trying to tell you how to raise your kids - trying to get you to perhaps see that you are preventing them from excelling in life.... And it bothers me to see good kids held back.
Grandpa Phil | 11:15 a.m. June 26, 2008
OK wyogirl, Please name the teenage girl at YFZ ranch who got handed over to an
adult male to be raped. Name the adult male. The facts are FINALLY out but you
folks REFUSE to be confused by them. One percent of the American people
maintain the inalienable right to remain stupid. Now, if they would just uphold
everyone else's inalienable rights to raise their children as they see fit,
we could end this droning debate.
R | 11:34 a.m. June 26, 2008
//We want to know what the mother would say to her daughter when she comes over
for holiday dinner with her non-FLDS husband and children?//
My father was torn about whether or not to attend the wedding when one of my uncles married outside the Church. Clearly me and my siblings came out permanently damaged by that. Oh wait.
No parent is required to support every choice a child may make, even if it's "legal and doesn't hurt anyone".
My father was torn about whether or not to attend the wedding when one of my uncles married outside the Church. Clearly me and my siblings came out permanently damaged by that. Oh wait.
No parent is required to support every choice a child may make, even if it's "legal and doesn't hurt anyone".
Grandpa Phil | 11:45 a.m. June 26, 2008
Well said mensum. That time may come, too, if Texas is allowed to play out this
drama the way they started to. And I SO WISH RC would STOP berating the FLDS
for not be "fair" to their children by teaching them their way of
life. I SO HOPE RC does not have children as I suspect he doesn't. His
ideas about how to raise them raises the hairs on the back of my neck every time
I hear him rant.
Gal50 actually criticised the FLDS for "making their children wear inappropriate clothes". Now THAT is funny. been to a mall lately Gal50? That is where you will see inappropriate clothes on children/teens.
By the way, I was 43 when I married my 19-yr old wife (she was Lutheran before I met her). Guess that makes me a pervert, too, but I have lots of great children and 9 grandchildren to show for it. I didn't raise them the way RC would but, who cares?
Gal50 actually criticised the FLDS for "making their children wear inappropriate clothes". Now THAT is funny. been to a mall lately Gal50? That is where you will see inappropriate clothes on children/teens.
By the way, I was 43 when I married my 19-yr old wife (she was Lutheran before I met her). Guess that makes me a pervert, too, but I have lots of great children and 9 grandchildren to show for it. I didn't raise them the way RC would but, who cares?
Grandpa Phil | 11:56 a.m. June 26, 2008
RC, that is the FIRST time I have heard you say that the FLDS kids are
"good kids". Please allow the good kids to live their lives in their
own families in accordance with the way their parents see fit to raise them.
That way, they will remain good kids.
Perhaps, excelling is not the goal of FLDS kids; perhaps exhaltation is their goal. Remember, it is not achievement that exhalts, but endeavor. RC wants those good kids to achieve, achieve, ACHIEVE!!!! Their parents want them to strive, learn, and endeavor to improve themselves. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. In the end, I wonder which technique produces the best adults. Ok, that was a rhetorical question. FLDS kids, y'all endeavor to your hearts' content. You will be better Americans than most we see today.
Perhaps, excelling is not the goal of FLDS kids; perhaps exhaltation is their goal. Remember, it is not achievement that exhalts, but endeavor. RC wants those good kids to achieve, achieve, ACHIEVE!!!! Their parents want them to strive, learn, and endeavor to improve themselves. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. In the end, I wonder which technique produces the best adults. Ok, that was a rhetorical question. FLDS kids, y'all endeavor to your hearts' content. You will be better Americans than most we see today.
realitycheck | 12:28 p.m. June 26, 2008
Grandpa Phil -
My comments have always been about the children, and I always considered them "good kids". It's the parents I have doubts about. And that is because, as you said, they persue "exhaltation". That means they live their entire lives under strict religious doctrine. Fine for the parents, but why can they not allow their children to choose their own path, without disowning them?
You don't have to live that way to be a good person. People continually denounce my posts by comparing the FLDS as good vs drug dealers and hookers as bad. Why use such extremes? It's not like those are the only two choices.
My biggest problem with the FLDS (ignoring illegal activity that hasn't been proven) is that if a young adult (18+) wants to persue some other career, they are denounced and banned. And choosing another path is extremely difficult given the teachings and lifestyle of their organization.
If the parents supported their children in persuing a path of their choosing (assuming its not a drug dealer or hooker!), I wouldn't be so critical of them. But they seem to care much more about their religion than their children, and that's wrong.
My comments have always been about the children, and I always considered them "good kids". It's the parents I have doubts about. And that is because, as you said, they persue "exhaltation". That means they live their entire lives under strict religious doctrine. Fine for the parents, but why can they not allow their children to choose their own path, without disowning them?
You don't have to live that way to be a good person. People continually denounce my posts by comparing the FLDS as good vs drug dealers and hookers as bad. Why use such extremes? It's not like those are the only two choices.
My biggest problem with the FLDS (ignoring illegal activity that hasn't been proven) is that if a young adult (18+) wants to persue some other career, they are denounced and banned. And choosing another path is extremely difficult given the teachings and lifestyle of their organization.
If the parents supported their children in persuing a path of their choosing (assuming its not a drug dealer or hooker!), I wouldn't be so critical of them. But they seem to care much more about their religion than their children, and that's wrong.
realitycheck | 12:36 p.m. June 26, 2008
by the way, I don't want them to "achieve, achieve, achieve". I
want them to be able to persue a path that makes them happy and fulfilled,
without being disowned by their parents. That shouldn't be so difficult,
but it is.
As you have seen, I have asked many times how an FLDS mother would react to her daughter if she went off to college, fell in love, and married a non-FLDS man and started a family with him. None have answered other than to say they would want their child to be happy. But I don't believe they would be welcome in their mother's FLDS home, which is sad - and shows that they have a lot less tolerance than I do.
Just wish they would love and support their children in something that's not religion, since religion isn't the only thing in life. (I do believe religion is the only thing in life for FLDS, but I'm not an expert so I don't know for sure. Maybe it just appears that way.)
As you have seen, I have asked many times how an FLDS mother would react to her daughter if she went off to college, fell in love, and married a non-FLDS man and started a family with him. None have answered other than to say they would want their child to be happy. But I don't believe they would be welcome in their mother's FLDS home, which is sad - and shows that they have a lot less tolerance than I do.
Just wish they would love and support their children in something that's not religion, since religion isn't the only thing in life. (I do believe religion is the only thing in life for FLDS, but I'm not an expert so I don't know for sure. Maybe it just appears that way.)
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And would you agree that ANY man who has had sex with a minor child should spend a long time in prison.
I hear the reports that the people at YFZ ranch were not collecting welfare, ok fine, did the people you grew up with collect welfare and enjoy bleeding the beast?
To me its not how you choose to live, it is the harm that is caused by sexually abusing children, and don't tell me that it has never happened,
Reality Check, Im with you on this.