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LDS Church backs marriage measure on California ballot
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Henry Drummond | 2:55 p.m. June 24, 2008
These discussions tend to generate a lot more heat than light but I hope I can
get a honest answer to an honest question.
There are any number of things that the Church teaches are contrary to its moral code but they don't get involved in promoting legislation in support of their views.
Does the Church feel that they will be threatened somehow by the widespread adoption of gay marriage or is it purely a desire to promote their moral view?
There are any number of things that the Church teaches are contrary to its moral code but they don't get involved in promoting legislation in support of their views.
Does the Church feel that they will be threatened somehow by the widespread adoption of gay marriage or is it purely a desire to promote their moral view?
MY SLC | 2:58 p.m. June 24, 2008
Separate but equal is not equal! Civil Unions are not equal. My company gives
partner health benefits but that does not apply to my pension. If I were to die
first the state and my employer does not automatically recognize inheritance
rights. We have had legal papers drawn up @ great personal expense. Still, not
all the rights and yes, responsibilities of a marriage are provided to us.
Marriage will happen and it will be accepted (some day) in Utah.
Comments continue below
jfs | 3:03 p.m. June 24, 2008
Richard G. I will feel no guilt whatsoever in promoting hatred against the
Mormon church.
What a perversly bigoted and hateful statement. Its called in current times, "Hate Speech" Do you Hate Jews that take the same position? Do you Hate Catholics with the same position? Do you Hate Blacks that take the same position? Or is this just one more way you can justify your Hate for Mormons. Pick your bigotry, its the same bigotry any where in the world.
What a perversly bigoted and hateful statement. Its called in current times, "Hate Speech" Do you Hate Jews that take the same position? Do you Hate Catholics with the same position? Do you Hate Blacks that take the same position? Or is this just one more way you can justify your Hate for Mormons. Pick your bigotry, its the same bigotry any where in the world.
Judgement | 3:04 p.m. June 24, 2008
This is not a matter of judgment. I am not about hating one group or another. I
don't hate my child when they act outside the family tenets at home, I just
know it is not going to benefit them or the home community if he/she does.
Therefore, quit trying to make this an issue of judgement. It is a sin. It is not natural. It is wrong. Therefore we should actively pursue its demise or acceptance. To not do so we simply condone it and then we accept it and then we have perveted the God given act of procreation.
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
Therefore, quit trying to make this an issue of judgement. It is a sin. It is not natural. It is wrong. Therefore we should actively pursue its demise or acceptance. To not do so we simply condone it and then we accept it and then we have perveted the God given act of procreation.
As for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
Marriage stealing is stealing | 3:04 p.m. June 24, 2008
Equal rights already exist.
We are born male or female.
No one is born Gay. We are all born capable of being heterosexual. The development of sexual organs occurs later, at puberty (not birth), and development of sexual organs are in accordance with our gender.
Free agency to make choices is given to all.
Anyone can therefore choose to be Gay, again proving that homosexuality is a perversion of natural sexuality and not an in-born trait.
Marriage is already defined--as being between a man and a woman.
If "gay bashing" means telling it like it is, then these facts condemn the lifestyle, I don't.
If you steal something, you are a thief. You can claim you were born with that predisposition. You can say that society is intolerant of you and shouldn't call you a thief because you couldn't help yourself. Or maybe we will just define you as a clepto, but by redefining the wrong we make it okay for you to be a thief and now we redefine ownership, too. Around you, who owns anything. Why don't we give everyone the right to do what they want and call it what they want: cheat, lie, kill. THIEF!
We are born male or female.
No one is born Gay. We are all born capable of being heterosexual. The development of sexual organs occurs later, at puberty (not birth), and development of sexual organs are in accordance with our gender.
Free agency to make choices is given to all.
Anyone can therefore choose to be Gay, again proving that homosexuality is a perversion of natural sexuality and not an in-born trait.
Marriage is already defined--as being between a man and a woman.
If "gay bashing" means telling it like it is, then these facts condemn the lifestyle, I don't.
If you steal something, you are a thief. You can claim you were born with that predisposition. You can say that society is intolerant of you and shouldn't call you a thief because you couldn't help yourself. Or maybe we will just define you as a clepto, but by redefining the wrong we make it okay for you to be a thief and now we redefine ownership, too. Around you, who owns anything. Why don't we give everyone the right to do what they want and call it what they want: cheat, lie, kill. THIEF!
BCA | 3:14 p.m. June 24, 2008
This issue brings out the bad side of most LDS. As an LDS father of a gay man
who lives with his partner in our home, I can easily say my son shows more
Christ-like characteristics than do most other men. If men treated their wives
the way my son treats his partner, the divorce rate would not be near the 50%
that it is.
The same-sex marriage issue turns LDS people into rabid, self-righteous, hate mongers. If you don't think so, re-read the posts in this thread looking for any semblance of charity.
The same-sex marriage issue turns LDS people into rabid, self-righteous, hate mongers. If you don't think so, re-read the posts in this thread looking for any semblance of charity.
YBU | 3:16 p.m. June 24, 2008
Why didn't the church fight in the United Kingdom and in Canada to keep gay
marriage out. Why only the USA? Don't the children and families in these
countries count? Why the silence when Norway and South Africa adopted gay
marriage? Why didn't the church invest money and time in fighting
legislation in these countries?
The Botanizer | 3:16 p.m. June 24, 2008
Thank God California has a record of setting new and better standards and laws
for the country.....Think emissions standards for cars, California set
them.....It looks like equality for gay men and women will begin in California
and spread out from there.
@Marriage stealing is stealing | 3:22 p.m. June 24, 2008
"No one is born Gay. We are all born capable of being heterosexual"
You know this because???
Even Pres Hinckley stated that he did NOT know if homosexuals were born that way. I am glad that you are sooo much more enlightened than he was.
You know this because???
Even Pres Hinckley stated that he did NOT know if homosexuals were born that way. I am glad that you are sooo much more enlightened than he was.
The Botanizer | 3:24 p.m. June 24, 2008
Would God recognize the marriage between a man and a robotic woman?
Mike Thompson | 3:25 p.m. June 24, 2008
Arguments like those of AWB remind me of Korihor. Even though he knew in his
heart what was correct, he fought against it and was struck dumb by God. This
was quite an event for a proud, sophisticated attorney. Well, I am an attorney
and I still support the will of God and will stand up for it. We do not hate
homosexuals, we hate the act, which is an abomination to God. Do not put your
own words into what we say or believe. You know not what you talk about.
GBH words | 3:25 p.m. June 24, 2008
Same-Gender Attraction
"We believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. We believe that marriage may be eternal through exercise of the power of the everlasting priesthood in the house of the Lord. "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are.
"We believe that marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. We believe that marriage may be eternal through exercise of the power of the everlasting priesthood in the house of the Lord. "People inquire about our position on those who consider themselves so-called gays and lesbians. My response is that we love them as sons and daughters of God. They may have certain inclinations which are powerful and which may be difficult to control. Most people have inclinations of one kind or another at various times. If they do not act upon these inclinations, then they can go forward as do all other members of the Church. If they violate the law of chastity and the moral standards of the Church, then they are subject to the discipline of the Church, just as others are.
Steve - Re: I'm Worried | 3:26 p.m. June 24, 2008
It isn't "gay Marriage", the correct term is "same sex
marriage. Why the distinction? Because, if two people who are Bisexual (but
just so happen to be of the same gender) marry it would be wrong to call it a
"gay marriage" as the couple isn't gay, they're Bi. So this
is why it is and should be refered to as "same sex marriage" only.
Anonymous | 3:33 p.m. June 24, 2008
Nice thought, The Botanizer, but MA has had same sex marriage for a couple years
now. Interestingly, the sky hasn't fallen and the divorce rate is down.
;>
El David | 3:34 p.m. June 24, 2008
I support the California Constitutional Ammendment! For those who disagree with
the LDS Church, or have disagreements us, go ahead and use your political power
to fight against the ammendment instead of whining about the LDS Church
intervening? Afraid that we might acutally win this battle? Reformed Utahn I am
both sorry and at the same time NOT sorry you have left the Church. I support
the LDS Church and other religious denominations, civic organizations and
citizens in opposing the Californication Supreme Court ruling. So if you pro gay
agenda types want to influcence the vote, make your case!
Here's Your Sign | 3:34 p.m. June 24, 2008
SVB,
Shame on you, if you sire lots of children and then leave them fatherless. Shame on you if you deny yourself fatherhood and abandon the children you were to have in a natural natural heterosexual relationship. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right.
Abandoning children is wrong just like homosexuality is wrong. Neither is right or justified.
As for your question about how homosexual marriage will take away from your marriage. Hopefully it won't, because hopefully there will never be such a thing. Your relationship with your wife may not change no matter how marriage is defined, but by redefining marriage we will have destroyed what marriage means. Yes, people have children out of wedlock, people have sex with multiple partners, people do a lot of things that I would not want to be defined as marriage because it destroys what marriage is intended for.
Homosexual relationships can not sire children for a reason. They are not intended to have children. Again, I understand how people who should not have kids have kids, but how does this wrong justify the wrong of redefining marriage and family. It doesn't! It remains wrong. Marriages, families, & children deserve more.
Shame on you, if you sire lots of children and then leave them fatherless. Shame on you if you deny yourself fatherhood and abandon the children you were to have in a natural natural heterosexual relationship. In other words, two wrongs don't make a right.
Abandoning children is wrong just like homosexuality is wrong. Neither is right or justified.
As for your question about how homosexual marriage will take away from your marriage. Hopefully it won't, because hopefully there will never be such a thing. Your relationship with your wife may not change no matter how marriage is defined, but by redefining marriage we will have destroyed what marriage means. Yes, people have children out of wedlock, people have sex with multiple partners, people do a lot of things that I would not want to be defined as marriage because it destroys what marriage is intended for.
Homosexual relationships can not sire children for a reason. They are not intended to have children. Again, I understand how people who should not have kids have kids, but how does this wrong justify the wrong of redefining marriage and family. It doesn't! It remains wrong. Marriages, families, & children deserve more.
Divorce | 3:36 p.m. June 24, 2008
Divorce is down in Canada too.
RE: BCA | 3:37 p.m. June 24, 2008
Look...if homosexuality is a sin, then it should not be dressed in any other
fashion. Quit trying to make it sound like to hate a sin is a sin. If I am an
adulterer I am a sinner no matter how nice or Christlike I may be.
Either accept the fact that it is a sin (as stated by our Prophets) or create your own version of what is a sin and take that to God for your own direction on what to do in this case. Use your wisdom and tongue to seek to change the will of God.
As for charity. To not accept and preach the folly of the sin lacks eternal charity. If my son were to be living that lifestyle and I were not actively emersed helping him out of that sin, I would lack all charity,love and compassion.
Either accept the fact that it is a sin (as stated by our Prophets) or create your own version of what is a sin and take that to God for your own direction on what to do in this case. Use your wisdom and tongue to seek to change the will of God.
As for charity. To not accept and preach the folly of the sin lacks eternal charity. If my son were to be living that lifestyle and I were not actively emersed helping him out of that sin, I would lack all charity,love and compassion.
Thank you. | 3:43 p.m. June 24, 2008
Someone must stand and be counted. Marriage is a Judeo-Christian invention to
provide an environment for procreation. If others want to have a legal
relationship let them, but don't call it marriage. Catholics and Mormons
agree, now it's time for others to defend marriage.
@ YBU 3:16 | 3:43 p.m. June 24, 2008
Excellent point! WHY didn't the LDS church do the same thing in Canada?
Or Mass.? How about the New York situation? Didn't hear a word then
either.
I'm curious to see what excuses the apololgists will use to excuse the church's selective actions.
I'm curious to see what excuses the apololgists will use to excuse the church's selective actions.
So wait.. | 3:46 p.m. June 24, 2008
If I oppose the mormon church and all they stand for I'm a bigot and
that's bad. BUT if I oppose homosexuality I'm a bigot and that's
good? How do you people rationalize this garbage? Guess it takes practice
ignoring the beam for the splinter.
maybe.... | 3:45 p.m. June 24, 2008
Maybe we didn't hear about the Church and their stance in Canada or
wherever else because it wasn't reported in the news. THings happen all the
time around the world that we here in Utah don't hear about... get off the
Church's back!
Anonymous | 3:47 p.m. June 24, 2008
So gays what are children entitled to?
Are they entitle to mother AND father or not?
OR by your selfishness are they only only entitled to whatever decide to dump on them?
Are they entitle to mother AND father or not?
OR by your selfishness are they only only entitled to whatever decide to dump on them?
What the Court actually said... | 3:48 p.m. June 24, 2008
The California State Supremen Court did not rule same sex marriage was legal.
They simply stated that Proposition 22 was not constitutional because it was a
change in the current marriage law (not a change to the Constitution).
Proposition 22
The current effort is actually a change to the Contstitution which the Court's cannot change. Additionally, California's State Supreme Court is by majority strict Constitutionalists (and by majority a conservative court). The ballot measure has generated enough signatures to get on the ballot. My understanding is there are those out there trying to get a counterproductive measure on the ballot or trying to get our extremely liberal legislators to change the constitution by fiat.
The current effort is actually a change to the Contstitution which the Court's cannot change. Additionally, California's State Supreme Court is by majority strict Constitutionalists (and by majority a conservative court). The ballot measure has generated enough signatures to get on the ballot. My understanding is there are those out there trying to get a counterproductive measure on the ballot or trying to get our extremely liberal legislators to change the constitution by fiat.
Richard G. | 3:50 p.m. June 24, 2008
Sorry, but a lot of you Mormons are really sick puppies. Many of you on this
board defended the FLDS child rapists, but somehow think two gay people getting
married poses a threat. Good moral priorities!
And I just love the juxtaposition of the Mormon persecution complex with the Mormon desire to impose truly stupid religious beliefs on society at large.
Well, all I can say is it will further cement the view of many outsiders that Mormons, like German Nazis, persecute gay people. And don't claim you don't kill gays. You do too. Just look at the regular obits in the Trib and DNews that are pretty clearly gay Mormon young men who committed suicide because their families perfer religious doctrine to Christ-like humanity.
What a pathetic excuse for a church and a religion.
And I just love the juxtaposition of the Mormon persecution complex with the Mormon desire to impose truly stupid religious beliefs on society at large.
Well, all I can say is it will further cement the view of many outsiders that Mormons, like German Nazis, persecute gay people. And don't claim you don't kill gays. You do too. Just look at the regular obits in the Trib and DNews that are pretty clearly gay Mormon young men who committed suicide because their families perfer religious doctrine to Christ-like humanity.
What a pathetic excuse for a church and a religion.
YBU | 3:51 p.m. June 24, 2008
to BCA
I would love to have you for a parent. There are times that a parent must let his child go and be whatever he is going to be and still love him and support him. My mother was such a person. She lived her religion like no other, but still would talk to me about my worries and joys without any condemnation, bless her soul. If I could have become what she wanted me to be, for her, I would have, but it would have been lying to myself and to everyone else. Believe me, it is much harder to be true to yourself and live a life that is honest than to please your family, church and society in this pretty, great state.
I would love to have you for a parent. There are times that a parent must let his child go and be whatever he is going to be and still love him and support him. My mother was such a person. She lived her religion like no other, but still would talk to me about my worries and joys without any condemnation, bless her soul. If I could have become what she wanted me to be, for her, I would have, but it would have been lying to myself and to everyone else. Believe me, it is much harder to be true to yourself and live a life that is honest than to please your family, church and society in this pretty, great state.
Tree of life | 3:53 p.m. June 24, 2008
Hey look across that filthy river...all those people look so happy. Their
divorce rate is down (YBU, Divorce), they love each other more than what we are
seeing in natural marriages (BCA), they smile a lot, look at us as if we are
fools for not accepting the great lifestyles they live....man what am I to do.
Oh yeah, HOLD TO THE ROD!!!! Wake up folks...quit making excuses for the sinner. Teach the law, live the law, protect the law, and love the sinner. Like a dove with a sharp sword.
Oh yeah, HOLD TO THE ROD!!!! Wake up folks...quit making excuses for the sinner. Teach the law, live the law, protect the law, and love the sinner. Like a dove with a sharp sword.
Wow... | 3:53 p.m. June 24, 2008
Reading the nasty comments here against gay people, is anyone surprised one of
Matthew Shepherd's killers was a member of a certain Utah-based religion?
Alex | 4:02 p.m. June 24, 2008
Tree of life:
Thank you, and Amen.
Thank you, and Amen.
Wake up and smell the roses | 4:02 p.m. June 24, 2008
When the prophet speaks,we know who is talking!
The prophet is pleading to the state(people)of california to stop legalising this practice and i believe when the prophet personally urges people to stop this practice then it will be well with them to STOP!.
The prophet is pleading to the state(people)of california to stop legalising this practice and i believe when the prophet personally urges people to stop this practice then it will be well with them to STOP!.
Anonymous | 4:03 p.m. June 24, 2008
"So gays what are children entitled to?
Are they entitle to mother AND father or not?
OR by your selfishness are they only only entitled to whatever decide to dump on them?"
In a ideal society, children would have both parents, aunts, uncles, grandmas and grandpas and lots of friends and cousins.
But we live in a country where most of the people having children are NOT even marrying the father. People are living together and having children and then breaking up, moving in with someone else and having more children.
BUT
We, as a country have NEVER told anyone that they cannot procreate. It has always been a personal choice. If we start taking children from homes without a father and a mother, what have we become as a society. You cannot tell gays not to adopt children (that they really want, by the way) without telling the rest of society who can have children.
Studies show that children are better off with older parents. Should we tell people to wait before having children because it is better for the child? See how controlling this issue can get when you start to tell people what they can do?
Are they entitle to mother AND father or not?
OR by your selfishness are they only only entitled to whatever decide to dump on them?"
In a ideal society, children would have both parents, aunts, uncles, grandmas and grandpas and lots of friends and cousins.
But we live in a country where most of the people having children are NOT even marrying the father. People are living together and having children and then breaking up, moving in with someone else and having more children.
BUT
We, as a country have NEVER told anyone that they cannot procreate. It has always been a personal choice. If we start taking children from homes without a father and a mother, what have we become as a society. You cannot tell gays not to adopt children (that they really want, by the way) without telling the rest of society who can have children.
Studies show that children are better off with older parents. Should we tell people to wait before having children because it is better for the child? See how controlling this issue can get when you start to tell people what they can do?
Anonymous | 4:05 p.m. June 24, 2008
So are children entitlesd to mother AND father or not?
The question is simple.
Would gays please answer and stop your hateful rhetoric to anyone or any group who disagrees with you. It is rather pathetic.
The question is simple.
Would gays please answer and stop your hateful rhetoric to anyone or any group who disagrees with you. It is rather pathetic.
BCA | 4:08 p.m. June 24, 2008
Those who use the term "gay lifestyle" immediately show their
ignorance on the topic of homosexuality. This term is laced with prejudice and
assumption. At this point, my gay son doesn't associate with any gays
other than his partner. He doesn't know any. He goes to work, pays his
taxes, he goes to school, tries to find some hope and joy in life and goes out
and does the same thing the next day. That is his "gay lifestyle".
He knows where close-minded people want him and his friend. My son was born gay
and will die gay. Those who talk of "changing gay people" need to ask
themselves if they could be talked out of their heterosexuality by well-meaning,
"knowing" people. Whether you want to believe it or not in your
ignorance, most gay people do not choose to be gay.
nature | 4:09 p.m. June 24, 2008
actually, homosexuality is natural--- there are many animals that exhibit both
homosexual and bisexual behaviors. so saying "it's unnatural" is
just flat out untrue.
RE: Richard G. | 4:12 p.m. June 24, 2008
Your anecdotal analysis of the LDS adherents that have posted on this site can
not strictly be itnerpreted into "a lot of you Mormons are sick
puppies". From a long distance dog food looks like stew but a closer
analysis reveals that it is in fact dogfood and not stew.
As for "clearly Mormon gay young men killing themselves" another weak analysis. In Utah the vast majority of the people are LDS. Do they claim to have committed suicide because of the tenets of the LDS faith? Could they be committing suicide because their support structure was lacking? Could they have committed suicide because of other reasons? Could they have committed suicide because they could not reconcile their choice with the tenets of their faith?
If you claim the Church is a "pathetic excuse for a church and a religion", certainly you have a reasons but none of the arguments you provided are logical reasons.
Please simply state that no matter what the LDS church says, you will hate it because you don't like the LDS church. Then at least we can accept you are an antagonist. Unless of course you accept homosexuality. Then that is another discussion.
As for "clearly Mormon gay young men killing themselves" another weak analysis. In Utah the vast majority of the people are LDS. Do they claim to have committed suicide because of the tenets of the LDS faith? Could they be committing suicide because their support structure was lacking? Could they have committed suicide because of other reasons? Could they have committed suicide because they could not reconcile their choice with the tenets of their faith?
If you claim the Church is a "pathetic excuse for a church and a religion", certainly you have a reasons but none of the arguments you provided are logical reasons.
Please simply state that no matter what the LDS church says, you will hate it because you don't like the LDS church. Then at least we can accept you are an antagonist. Unless of course you accept homosexuality. Then that is another discussion.
@ BCA | 4:11 p.m. June 24, 2008
Thank you for your comment. It means more comming from someone who ACTUALLY is
in the middle of the situation instead of standing on the sidelines.
I've read these posts and other posts on this topic and it makes me realise that it must be nice to be LDS. Just check your brain at the baptismal font and let some total strangers in Salt Lake do all the thinking for you. Follow blindly, there are no grey areas, just black and white. No accountability for not doing something, all you have to say is "The Prophet said" or "The Prophet didn't say to..." or "Can I have some more Grape Kool-Aid?" and all is well, all is well.
Makes me glad I am no longer a member. Now I can think for myself. As for the rest of time and all eternity, I'll put my faith in God. I know I'll get a fair judgement from Him. Something I'll never see from my fellow man here on Earth.
I've read these posts and other posts on this topic and it makes me realise that it must be nice to be LDS. Just check your brain at the baptismal font and let some total strangers in Salt Lake do all the thinking for you. Follow blindly, there are no grey areas, just black and white. No accountability for not doing something, all you have to say is "The Prophet said" or "The Prophet didn't say to..." or "Can I have some more Grape Kool-Aid?" and all is well, all is well.
Makes me glad I am no longer a member. Now I can think for myself. As for the rest of time and all eternity, I'll put my faith in God. I know I'll get a fair judgement from Him. Something I'll never see from my fellow man here on Earth.
And.. | 4:13 p.m. June 24, 2008
Studies also show that Jewish children achieve much better than any other
religious group. We should pass a law that only Jews can have children, because
each child deserves only the best!
lakers | 4:17 p.m. June 24, 2008
why doesn't mayor Rocky admit he is gay? We all know he is. He should get
married to Rosie Odonald. That would be a great marriage. And it would be just
what you gay people want. A Gay person married to a Gay person. Sweet!! we got
this thing solved!!
Which Way America? | 4:18 p.m. June 24, 2008
So anyone who rejects the "abominable and detestable crime against nature" is a member of "the holier than thou crowd". How interesting. Therefore anyone who is against murder, forced robbery or child porn is also a member of "the holier than thou crowd"? Of course murders, wife beaters and child molesters just want acceptance and they are born that way and can do nothing about it so don't discriminate against them by throwing them in jail because if you are against this type of crime you are intolerant, bigoted, discriminating and filled with hate and there should be hate laws passed to silence your freedom of speech. Now for my view: 1. No one should unjustly injure, harm or hate homosexuals period. Everyone should unconditionally love them. 2. Homosexuality is an enemy of freedom, the family, the society and life. 3. Homosexuality is not a God given right protected by the Constitution. It is an abominable sex crime. 4. Homosexuality is being heavily pushed, promoted and financed by the New World Order insiders for the express purpose of destroying the morals of the rising generation so the PTB can enslave us. 5. They cannot enslave a moral people.
Supershan | 4:25 p.m. June 24, 2008
What is at issue is the INSTITUTION of marriage, the standard that is held for
the benefit of all. While not all children will have the ideal home consisting
of both mother and father, we do not give up on the standard that such an
institution maintains. The very hope of it is embodied in that institution for
every child, and for which they are entitled.
Man-woman marriage, including polygamy, has always been about children. Paternity and maternity is clear and established, and grounds the child in biological and emotional history. It gives them an identity. Same-sex marriage is exclusive of these and social documentation (for both homo and hetero) will reflect that ambiguousness when marriage and birth records respectively state: "Applicant A, Applicant B" and "Parent A, Parent B".
But, the FACT is that every single child has one father and one mother. It's a natural law that has never changed over all the differing civilizations and schools of thought. Our children deserve the facts and laws based on those facts. It will free them up to live the life we may not have had--but we at least had hope enough not to let go of the standard.
Man-woman marriage, including polygamy, has always been about children. Paternity and maternity is clear and established, and grounds the child in biological and emotional history. It gives them an identity. Same-sex marriage is exclusive of these and social documentation (for both homo and hetero) will reflect that ambiguousness when marriage and birth records respectively state: "Applicant A, Applicant B" and "Parent A, Parent B".
But, the FACT is that every single child has one father and one mother. It's a natural law that has never changed over all the differing civilizations and schools of thought. Our children deserve the facts and laws based on those facts. It will free them up to live the life we may not have had--but we at least had hope enough not to let go of the standard.
RE: WOW | 4:27 p.m. June 24, 2008
I don't know if one of Matthew Sheperd's killers was a "member of
a certain Utah-based religion" or not. But to assert anything other than a
man was killed by some brutal and sick people, or to infer that members of such
a religion kill gays is pretty ridiculous.
Everyone ask yourself the question: IS HOMOSEXUALITY A SIN AGAINST THE LAWS OF GOD?
If you answer yes then you need to defend the law of God under which this value is predicated. To not do so means that you lack faith and conviction with regard to God and his laws.
If you answer no then you need defend the the attack against those who live the lifestyle or you lack faith and conviction in that lifestyle.
Bottom line...quit giving us anectodotal evidence and trying to draw hard logical conclusions. You break every rule of logic by doing so.
Here is logic: If all are homosexual then we will not procreate. If we will not have procreate we have no continuance, if we have no continuance we have broken the law of nature and will therefore doom the world to the extinction of mankind.
Everyone ask yourself the question: IS HOMOSEXUALITY A SIN AGAINST THE LAWS OF GOD?
If you answer yes then you need to defend the law of God under which this value is predicated. To not do so means that you lack faith and conviction with regard to God and his laws.
If you answer no then you need defend the the attack against those who live the lifestyle or you lack faith and conviction in that lifestyle.
Bottom line...quit giving us anectodotal evidence and trying to draw hard logical conclusions. You break every rule of logic by doing so.
Here is logic: If all are homosexual then we will not procreate. If we will not have procreate we have no continuance, if we have no continuance we have broken the law of nature and will therefore doom the world to the extinction of mankind.
Left handed | 4:28 p.m. June 24, 2008
Or..
To hell with the rest of the world. You cannot see any harm coming to those people because you feel normal using your left hand. You were anxious and on edge the whole time you only used your right hand. This is what you are - left handed. If the world doesn't accept you because of it, well, you are still much happier, more relaxed, and, yes, joyous than when you were guarding against offending those who feel that your left handedness is evil.
Understand?
To hell with the rest of the world. You cannot see any harm coming to those people because you feel normal using your left hand. You were anxious and on edge the whole time you only used your right hand. This is what you are - left handed. If the world doesn't accept you because of it, well, you are still much happier, more relaxed, and, yes, joyous than when you were guarding against offending those who feel that your left handedness is evil.
Understand?
re Which Way America | 4:30 p.m. June 24, 2008
To equate Gay People who love each other and want to make their union legal with
Murderers, Wife Abusers and Child Molesters is utterly appalling. Don't
tell us about morality when you clearly lack it yourself.
Alex | 4:39 p.m. June 24, 2008
To any LDS out there who get intimidated when the gay lobby ridicules you, I
want to remind you that they would ridicule you anyway. They can't help
it. Don't you understand that if you are a firm LDS believer that nothing
you do will never be enough?
When will you finally understand that you will never be open-minded enough for them? You will never be worthy of anything above pity at best, or contempt and hate at worst. If you are always searching for a Sally Field moment (Remember when she cried while accepting an Oscar, "They like me! They really like me!") then you will always be disappointed.
Now is the time to be comfortable in your own skin and convictions and look straight into the eye of the person with the finger of scorn pointed at you and stand with the truth.
I stand with the brethren, and I sleep well at night. I've never treated homosexuals poorly, and I owe the public education system, the secular progressives, and the homosexual lobby nothing for it either.
When will you finally understand that you will never be open-minded enough for them? You will never be worthy of anything above pity at best, or contempt and hate at worst. If you are always searching for a Sally Field moment (Remember when she cried while accepting an Oscar, "They like me! They really like me!") then you will always be disappointed.
Now is the time to be comfortable in your own skin and convictions and look straight into the eye of the person with the finger of scorn pointed at you and stand with the truth.
I stand with the brethren, and I sleep well at night. I've never treated homosexuals poorly, and I owe the public education system, the secular progressives, and the homosexual lobby nothing for it either.
Anonymous | 4:40 p.m. June 24, 2008
I thought is was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.
RE: Nature | 4:42 p.m. June 24, 2008
Animals are not sentient beings. They act out of impulse. To state that there
are exhibits of homosexuality in the animal kingdom and to conclude that because
of that homosexuality is natural is a fallacious conclusion.
Nature has two demands. Procreation and Protection of life. Given the premise that nature demands reproduction, to attempt sex within gender would produce no offspring. Therefore homosexuality is id direct oppostion to the laws of nature.
One may claim that the homosexual act may provide personal gratification. But can never say it is natural.
Whether a person is born that way or not is of no consequence. It is an aboration in nature.
Nature has two demands. Procreation and Protection of life. Given the premise that nature demands reproduction, to attempt sex within gender would produce no offspring. Therefore homosexuality is id direct oppostion to the laws of nature.
One may claim that the homosexual act may provide personal gratification. But can never say it is natural.
Whether a person is born that way or not is of no consequence. It is an aboration in nature.
Alex | 4:48 p.m. June 24, 2008
To "re Which Way America":
"To equate Gay People who love each other and want to make their union legal with Murderers, Wife Abusers and Child Molesters is utterly appalling. "
I will do it to your face. It is equal to Wife Abuse and Child Molestation. Only Murder is worse.
"To equate Gay People who love each other and want to make their union legal with Murderers, Wife Abusers and Child Molesters is utterly appalling. "
I will do it to your face. It is equal to Wife Abuse and Child Molestation. Only Murder is worse.
To Annonymous at 4:03 | 4:51 p.m. June 24, 2008
What are your children entitled to? An enlightened, intelligent, open minded,
love thy neighbor as thy self, accepting, loving household? Or by your own
selfishness, a hateful, bigotted, un christ like, arrogant household, that
teaches that it is ok to try and make others do what is right, as long as you
believe it is right. That teaches it is ok to hate people because they are
different and not allow someone their GOD GIVEN RIGHT to make their own choices!
By your own selfishness please, corrupt your children, my partner and I will
get married, adopt a child who will love and accept people for who they are,
instead of being afraid and hating them. He will grow up to be an outstanding
member of society and we will love him and know that we raised him the best we
knew how! And your children, and grand children will learn a thing or two from
him! :)
re re WOW | 4:51 p.m. June 24, 2008
Yes, his name was Russell Henderson and he was a member. No, I don't
believe Homosexuality is a sin against the laws of God, because I believe Man
created God to suit his own purposes, and the Bible is a product of that. And
All are Not Homosexual, are they? Homosexuals throughout history have always
existed and been a small minority of the population so I wouldn't worry too
much about mankind dying out.
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The inherent rights of marriage are rights of inheritance, medical rights, social security rights, etc. Why is granting gay people these rights of protection and support erosive of the rights of straight marriage?
Oh, you think it is a choice. That by choosing gayness, it is a thumb in the eye of society? What about the straight guy who sires lots of children in a marriage and then leaves them fatherless and in poverty? Is this better than a gay marriage. Defend this!