Deseret News | LDS Church officials urge California members to support marriage amendment

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LDS Church officials urge California members to support marriage amendment

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Dear "Silliness, Seriously" | 6:31 p.m. June 23, 2008

I'll address you points:

You wrote, "1) the churches which DO NOT change have been teaching God's will previously AND now."

My reply: All churches change. All churches have a history of change.

"Or 2) churches with changeable doctrine are teaching for popular public opinion and worth every counterfeit $100 bill available in the donation plate."

My reply. The LDS Church has always changed for popular public opinion. For example, LDS Church authority don't say the kind junk that Spencer W. Kimball used to say about homosexuality, and no one really believes anymore than fornication is a sin next to murder. the LDS Church is counterfeit from head to toe in this regard, and I can provide several other examples if you wish.

"Or 3) God has been changing his mind as-of-late, recognizing his original decision as a mistake?"

Read the Bible and explain to me how this fictional character called God has not changed his mind. He changed his mind with regard to the commandment to kill children for disobedience, and he's no longer okay with men having concubines in addition to many wives. God changes his mind all the time. I'm not sure what Bible you're reading.

Anonymous | 6:33 p.m. June 23, 2008

After thinking about it and reading a lot of arguments for and against gay marriage, here is the only argument I can come up with for banning it: It is wrong.

A nation's laws reflect it's people, and if a nation recognizes an unholy union it is an indication of wickedness. While what a gay couple does in their bedroom or even raising children may not have proven negative social consequences, if I believe that God blesses or punishes us collectively (as well as individually) then the wickedness of my neighbors hurts me and therefore, I can justify preventing them from it by law.

Of course this argument will not convince anyone who does not already believe that gay marriage is wrong. It might convince those who believe that it is wrong but don't want to intrude on someone else's freedom. (The same argument works against abortion.)

Many will say that this argument has no place in politics, but the truth is, politics cannot declare God dead. If enough people in California believe in the same God that I do, then we will be justified in passing a marriage amendment.

lakers | 6:32 p.m. June 23, 2008

What does Ellan and Rosie gain by getting married? Rosie is still a loser and Ellan is wasted talent. Still doesn't change the fact they are wrong and perverted!! What is the deal with these gay people? Why do you want to through your views down my throat and my childrens throats. Let us live a christian life as our founding fathers intended. Sure I am aware gay people exist. So do murderers and thieves. Why do we have to listen to these gay people and their "equal rights". What rights do you not have because you are gay? Name 1? Can you worship as you please? yes. Can you bare Arms? yes. Can you tell people your gay? yes. What is it you are lacking?

The answer is, deep down they know it is wrong and they have given up. So they want everyone else to be forced to accept their choice! But that still does not make it right! God bless America!! God bless the gay people in this country to not be gay!

Comments continue below

Ramon | 6:40 p.m. June 23, 2008

The day our society accepts adultery, homosexuality, and incest as normal, we are we corrupt and decadent people.

To:A Few Facts, LDS answer this, | 6:42 p.m. June 23, 2008

So the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Please enjoy the following:

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mind claims that this applies to Mexicans, but no Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canandians.

e) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

suzyk | 6:44 p.m. June 23, 2008

To TruthFinallyRevealed..Shame on you and you say you are an active member of the Church? If I were you I wouldn't be advertising your opinion and have it follow with the information that you are an active member. I would keep that to myself because you do not sound like someone who has a testimony and follows the words of the Prophet of which comes from God. You need to do some serious soul searching and decide which way you are going to believe because at this point you are behaving like a hypocrite not an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

My Uncle Has A Farm | 6:48 p.m. June 23, 2008

So the Bible says homosexuality is wrong. Hmmmm.

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garmets made of two different kinds of threat (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24: 10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws (Lev. 20:14)

Seriously, folks, the Bible is bad source for morality and clear thinking. If you are going to make reference to the Bible to justify your ignorance and hatred, why pick and choose? Why ignore passages that you clearly don't believe? Please don't float the argument that such passages are ignored because you no longer believe in the laws of Moses. The anti-gay parts of the Bible come from the same books in the Bible as the other awful passages.

God bless USA | 6:50 p.m. June 23, 2008

Our country is struggling right now. These are tough times. It's hard to find a wise, honest person to elect to office. We need to take an honest look at ourselves to see why our country is struggling.

We need to fight this for our country. History is repeating itself. I've seen some of the same comments on these blogs as I have read in the Book of Mormon, coming from unbelievers. God is real. His commandments are real. Only by following his commandments can we receive true happiness. As history has shown before, once we stray from his commandments, we lose His protection. Maybe our prophet knows something we don't know yet? We need to follow him and do what it takes to preserve the freedoms we have that so many died for.

Dear Anonymous | 6:53 p.m. June 23, 2008

You wrote,

"While what a gay couple does in their bedroom or even raising children may not have proven negative social consequences, if I believe that God blesses or punishes us collectively (as well as individually) then the wickedness of my neighbors hurts me and therefore, I can justify preventing them from it by law."

The only way to describe your belief is this: superstition.

Vegas Ed | 6:52 p.m. June 23, 2008

I live in Sin City, and I'm grateful to California for doing this. Reason, Conservatives will come out to vote for McCain now, instead of staying at home. Truthfully, I don't like McCain, but with Obama putting in liberal judges like California has, this country will suffer for decades, if not be ruined completely.

Sorrow | 6:52 p.m. June 23, 2008

Reading over this whole thing has depressed me greatly. Sure I'm against gay marriage, and I'm LDS, but that does not mean I'm a brainwashed homophobic. I was only told to hate the sin, NOT the sinner. In my experience, it was the supporters of gay marriage that seemed more intolerant. I never tried to inflict my beliefs on others, I only stated my opinion and left it at that, just as the church has done here. They've drawn the line, and urged (notice how it's not "forced") members to do the same. Then there were the gay-supporters who would bash me, yell at me, and call me an "intolerant, ignorant chirstian" just for simply voicing an opinion that the 1st amendment gives me to every right to say. And if I recall correctly, it's a prophet's duty to preach the word of God, not the opinions of man, who is flawed in almost every way! The many prophets in the Bible were bashed for doing so, and look what happened to the ones who rebelled! Rome fell, Egypt fell, Babylon fell. Hmmm...I'm beginning to notice a trend here...don't you?

Dear Romon | 6:54 p.m. June 23, 2008

Once upon a time, there were many Christians in the U.S. who believe that inter-racial marriage was as abnormal as incest. Religion corrupts reason and clear thinking.

Let's use some common sense.

kathyn | 6:56 p.m. June 23, 2008

This really does show that the Prophet is a true prophet because he knows that in the future all church leaders who state that homosexuality is wrong will be convicted of "hate crimes". The church will not be allowed to teach against it; temple marriages will be considered discriminatory and it will be a huge victory for the Adversary.
I personally don't care if gay/lesbians co-habit. I don't even care if they have hospital visitation, certain civil rights, etc., but it is not "marriage". No one is consigned to a lonely life by this. All are free to do what they please, but don't ever expect the Church to sanction this. You confuse the sin with the sinner. Church leaders do have love and compassion. But they see the big and eternal picture. It was never a question of love and tolerance, but rather a question of eternal laws and principles. The Church doesn't force anyone to do anything. It just counsels, for our own eternal progress. We are free to choose. But we are not free to choose the consequences.

Linda | 6:58 p.m. June 23, 2008

Religion is for the unstable, so they can become more unstable. Homosexuality is also for the unstable, and way too weird for words. You religious and homos are all nuts!

to 6:42pm... | 7:00 p.m. June 23, 2008

your old and tired and misinterpreted scriptures are boring and straight (pun intended) from the homosexual playbook. It's interesting to see how well the homosexual crowd knows Leviticus but doesn't understand the Law of Moses.

It's impossible to explain it to the homosexual crowd so I won't even try.

Homosexual BEHAVIOR is wrong. It produces nothing but disease.

It's a BEHAVIOR folks that needs correcting, nothing more, nothing less.

Just wondering | 7:04 p.m. June 23, 2008

First step Gay Marriage. It's between consenting adults, right. Next step, Polygamy. As long as they're consenting adults, right.

Word of God? | 7:04 p.m. June 23, 2008

Sorry, the so-called prophets were always speaking the words of men. Shouldn't this be obvious? Isn't also obvious that the religious are always picking and choosing. If the Bible says that children should be killed for disobedience, which is really does say, why ignore this passage and justify anti-gay sentiments by quoting passages from the same book in the Bible? It makes no sense!

Let's exercise some independent thinking. The Bible will not help you. It's clear that homosexuality has absolutely nothing to do with morality, and it's absolutely clear than killing children for disobedience is immoral and is only something that the like of Saddam Hussein would approve.

Dear Sorrow | 7:07 p.m. June 23, 2008

You are indulging in superstitious thinking.

I don't hate you, by the way. I hate the belief, not the believer.

No. | 7:08 p.m. June 23, 2008

This is the classic extension of the Utah mentality. It should stop at the idea that this is not acceptable behaviour to the church and therefore members of the church should practise and live their lives accordingly. It should NOT be that this behaviour is unacceptable to the church and therefore every effort should be made to make everyone live their lives accordingly. The consitiution is crafted to prevent mob rule and ensure personal freedom. Of course, it is under attack these days. A large mob in support of unconstitutional endeavours is still a mob. Our relationship to our government is collective; we all live by the same rules. Our relationship with God is personal. Let's keep it that way. Let us choose, insofar as possible, for ourselves.

Anonymous | 7:12 p.m. June 23, 2008

Oh well, whatever.

R. P. Spencer, Jr. | 7:13 p.m. June 23, 2008

The "crime Against nature" cannot be licensed. 6,000 years of history and common sense and four million voters in California uphold the time-tested wisdom of marriage between a man and a woman. The peddlers of perversion have a six-step strategic and dangerous plan, which must be stopped immediately: (1) removing the Bible and the Ten Commandments from the public domain; (2) licensing the crime against nature; (3) passing a law that says practicing perversion is a civil right; (4) Penalizing churches and leaders that will not permit the licensing of the crime against nature to be performed in their churches; (5) institutionalizing the state religions of scientific atheism and secular humanism; and ultimately (6) banning the organization and practice of the Christian religion in the United States of America. Stop the "slow stain of the world" from poisoning the innocence of our children and grandchildren! Vote for an amendment to the Constitution of the State of California reserving the God-given organization of marriage between a man and a woman. The results: (a) filling up the maternity wards and emptying the jails; and (b) preserving the Republic with the rule of law based on time-tested moral principles that preserve liberty.

Dear Family Decline | 7:15 p.m. June 23, 2008

Do feel just as bad for a son of a widow who lives with her sister to help raise him? Is this situation an example of family decline. I suggest you apply skepticism to your claims.

As far as confusion goes, lots of kids are confused regardless of their family. Ever heard of adolescence?

Henry Drummond | 7:21 p.m. June 23, 2008

Am I the only one who sees the irony of all this? The Church fought against the traditional definition of marriage for decades. They didn't want government defining marriage just because the religious majority was offended by the Church's practice. Why is it suddenly OK to do the same thing to homosexuals. Why not just leave them alone? Does it really affect the rest of us?

Just Observing | 7:25 p.m. June 23, 2008

I remember when the episcipalian church was divided over the Gay issue, I didnt see anyone atacking them like the comments I see about the L.D.S. Church,I am new here in utah but it seems to me the L.D.S. Church gets alot of flack for standing up for their beleifs just like catholics or Jews stand up for their beliefs, somehow they dont get the back lashing Mormons Do......

Anon. | 7:26 p.m. June 23, 2008

Separate the Church and State!

Texas Hold 'Em | 7:28 p.m. June 23, 2008

To those of you defending that two women should be able to marry one another, were you also defending the two women here in Texas that choose to marry the same man? If not, why weren't you?

It's interesting that the only thing most of you who are against the views of the LDS Church care about is that it lose its tax-exempt status.

Who hurt you?

Anonymous | 7:30 p.m. June 23, 2008

Just to clarify the Bible's stance on homosexuality: 1st Corinthians 6:9, 1st Timothy 1:10, Romans 1:27, Jude 1:7. Those are New Testament references. I know these aren't arguments for those who don't believe in the NT, but I thought the facts should be stated. I'd also like to raise the point of love being more than just physical attraction. It's only the lowest, most biological, most id part of a relationship. I'd theorize that friendship, trust, service, unselfishness and romance contribute much more to a couple's happiness. Why base ideology, lifestyle and identity on a small part of just a part of life (romantic relationships), as often happens? I say this without personal experience, just kind of thinking out loud. Maybe if people found out what truly makes one happy in a romantic relationship and that friendship-type relationships can be close, rewarding and even loving without physical intimacy, homosexuality wouldn't be such a hard issue. Neither would single parenthood, infidelity and divorce be as common, maybe? I believe homosexuality is wrong. I also believe that people with homosexual feelings can be happy without homosexual relationships, intimacy or marriage. The Church is not trying to keep anyone from being happy.

andrew | 7:32 p.m. June 23, 2008

I'm nude at least twice a day

Sorrow | 7:36 p.m. June 23, 2008

"You are indulging in superstitious thinking."

I don't think it is for you to tell me what my beliefs are thank you very much.

Whatever, I do not wish to argue with you, I only wanted to post my comment and I'm leaving it at that. And like a few previous comments have said, there are far better things for me to worry about instead of wasting my time on people bashing an entire belief system because of one tiny little thing.

So good bye!

charles clark | 7:53 p.m. June 23, 2008

Show me just one marriage that has been brought down by a homosextual union and I wil vote for your amendment.

I can show you 100s maybe thousands of women in the church who have married gay men because the bishop or some leader said they should and that the man could repent and be cured. It has brought nothing but anger, depression and sadness when the marriage breaks up because the man cannot change.

Please show me one gay man who has been changed. You cannot do it.

Are they not children of God also. Let them have a full life with the one they love. For God's sake!

How can gay marriage effect marriage between a man and a woman? Are you all crazy? Or are you all mean and selfish and built up in your pride and judgmental?

You say your children might be led astray! Bull!

Your Self righteous attitude will do more harm to your children than any gay or gay marriage.

"If you love one another all men will know that you are my deciples." What lunatic said that? Oh it was our leader. What did he mean by that?

Easterner | 7:53 p.m. June 23, 2008

Poor Poor Mormons. Garden of Eden in Missouri. You will become Gods. We didn't care about your cult until you started sticking your self righteous noses into another state's affairs. Live as you like in your Desert Kingdom. Just kindly leave the rest of us alone.

John | 7:53 p.m. June 23, 2008

Just a thought. The Church owns and operates this website (through Deseret News). I'm impressed that it allows people of all opinions, including rabidly anti-Church opinions, to post here. Just a thought for those who claim the Church is trying to persecute and oppress, or that it should keep its nose out of political affairs.

The Truth | 7:54 p.m. June 23, 2008

So I had a few Gay freinds in School and wouldnt you know when I got married they seemed to disappear..
I find it amusing that Gay people define themselves as being so picked on by society but when it comes right down to it they treat straight people the same way they complain about straight people treating them..
If It would have been the Pope having his preists read the catholics stance on Homosexuality from the pulpit I wonder what the gay community would say??
Probably the same thing they are saying about the Mormons, Here is the truth, society as a whole especially Christians Gay or straight should treat others as they would like to be treated, Somehow Non Christians are much more Christ Like than Christians......HMMM

Kelly Miller | 7:58 p.m. June 23, 2008

What are the sweetest experiences in marriage? I wish this conversation turned to that. There is a love that two homosexual people cannot ever reach. I think they mourn for that and that is why they seek approval of marriage. They know there is a link missing in their love. The link is: healing, purity, sanctity, a sacred trust between God and man for the rearing of children...
1. There is a pure love felt that is a glimpse of eternity
2. It is something to hope for and work for
3. It makes you want to be your best- clean in mind and body.
4. It is an expression of love that is passed on from generation to generation. Where you see you and your spouses character traits and physical features, etc. in your posterity.

I mourn for the widows
I mourn for the orphans
I mourn for the homeless
I mourn for those who stay single
And, I mourn for those who are homosexual
My love and compassion goes out to you. I say this from my heart.

Anon | 7:58 p.m. June 23, 2008

Seperate perversion and State!

they say the judges were dumb | 7:58 p.m. June 23, 2008

To the people who say "Let's round up the gays, and put them someplace else together." Funny, when the citizens of Missouri used their democratically elected right to drive the Mormons out, you seemed to think that was wrong.

As for the "our LDS leaders won't ask us what position we took" line: Did you not live in CA last time around? Bishops routinely asked people, and threatened excommunication in some cases!

Dear R. P. Spencer, Jr | 8:01 p.m. June 23, 2008

Are you actually suggesting that the earth is 6,000 years old? Wow!

It is clearly unconstitutional to display the ten commandments on public property. If you wish to display it on your own property, go ahead; after all, it's a free country.

Our national is a secular nation, not a Christian nation. Our founding fathers made this very clear.

Atheism is not a religion. It's very definition runs counter to religion. Thank God!

Sleuth | 8:00 p.m. June 23, 2008

There may be an issue as it relates to the LDS Church's (and all anti-gay marriage churches), interests, of prohibitory "State Action." The Civil rights Act of 1964 prohibits states from issuing "licenses," "charters," "tax exempt preferences," etc., to persons or organizations, which do not treat all persons equally under the law. The Courts may be challenged to view the LDS Church's refusal to marry gays as discriminatory and to view this conduct as a denial of equal protection, in which case the Church might have its charter and tax exempt status revoked. I am not a lawyer, but it appears surficial that the argument could be raised even if it fails to meet the tests. Such would be a rigorous costly distraction to the Church's mission. So it may be wise for all persons to take issue now, while the measure can be defeated through a Constitutional Amendment. It may be prudent for all to recognize this as a hostile destructive vicious attack on the family institution equal to sexual immorality, infidelity, physical and psychological abuse, and murder.

TetonMike | 8:03 p.m. June 23, 2008

"...with Liberty and Justice for ALL."

Seems pretty straight-forward to me.

(This will get REALLY interesting if Mitt becomes the GOP VP choice. I'm gonna' enjoy watching him squirm regarding government telling ANYONE what their marriage should look like.)

Monogamy equals sin | 8:05 p.m. June 23, 2008

It was only a century ago that the leaders of the LDS church preached that monogamy was a sin that led to immorality, and only polygamists could achieve exaltation. My, how things change.

andrew | 8:06 p.m. June 23, 2008

I urge all gays to convert to the LDS church immediately and en masse.

Crimes against nature | 8:14 p.m. June 23, 2008

Homosexuality, interracial marriage, polygamy. All considered crimes against nature at one point. Only one left.

Old Guy | 8:17 p.m. June 23, 2008

It is typical of the gay community to viciously attack the character any person or organization who opposes them. They do it to intimidate everyone. We see it time and time again. This is no exception.

The greatness of this country has been in the fact that the majority rules. The people decide what is best for them. All too often now we see judges who have no right to do so, making law. Elected officials are charged with making law, not judges. If homosexuals and any other special interest groups have a mind to change law, they should have to convince the communities in which they live that their special interest should be made law. At this point I don't see it happening. The vast majority are against homosexual marriage. I will fight to keep it that way. It is my right as a citizen.

Something Positive | 8:30 p.m. June 23, 2008

I'm terribly saddened by how so many are shamelessly calling "evil good and good evil" relating to this topic... but at least I've come up something positive. I have a great tax strategy. My dad is very wealthy and in a few years I will plan to marry him, and I will take on his wealth and avoid all estate tax issues when he passes on. I may even be able to claim my younger siblings as dependents on my income tax return.

Dear Anonymous | 8:29 p.m. June 23, 2008

Jesus said it was okay to beat slaves, and he was also anti-family when he suggested people ought to leave their family and follow him. Do you agree with these things?

My brother has had homosexual feelings as long as he can remember. Starting in adolescence, he was miserable because he never acted on his feeling. Imagine as a heterosexual if you were never allowed to act on your heterosexual feelings. Would you be less happy? Be honest with yourself.

My brother is now happy because he has finally accepted his sexuality and acts on his feelings. It's not all about sex, as you assume, but let's face it, sexuality is important part of life. My brother was lonely and depressed when he was obedience to teachings of ignorant old, Church authorities. It's not possible to take control of your life by being obedient to others. Obedience is contrary to true freedom, and it leads to misery.

Dear Sleuth | 8:34 p.m. June 23, 2008

A hostile, destructive vicious attack on the family institution equal to sexual immorality (define your terms please), infidelity, physical and psychology abuse and murder.

You are fine example of how religion erodes common sense and reason.

Robert Oh | 8:34 p.m. June 23, 2008

Wasn't there something like 45 million people who voted in the final night of American Idol? Mormons claim to around 13 million members - probably 1/3 of those are active.

The only ones who care what the Mormons say live in Utah and Idaho. Mormons make our life here a little challenging but in the big scheme - not so much. Just a blip.

Don't they have a mall to build or something?

Confused Secularists | 8:38 p.m. June 23, 2008

Seperation of church and state MEANS...the state can't interfere with religion or proscrible a religion that all must adhere too. Freedom to worship is seperate from government dictation. IT DOES NOT MEAN religion must be a silent non-particpating community or social entity without freedom of expression. It's called a civil right.

smosheph jith | 8:40 p.m. June 23, 2008

Mormons should try and save themselves before casting dispersions upon others. Freedom of religion is a privilege in this country it is not a right and it is not everyone's religion. I might buy a vacuum from a door to door sales person, but I personally would never buy religion. Mind your own heard and try to avoid the temptation of thinking you are holier than though. Remember, there was once a time when your religion was looked down upon and your people were persecuted....I think it goes....do unto to others....blah..blah..blah. Did you forget the last part too?

Dear Kelly Miller | 8:40 p.m. June 23, 2008

My gay brother's oldest daughter has his features. My brother got married and had two children, knowing that he was gay, and he was the most miserable man I've known. He doesn't need your pathetic pity. Now that he's out of the closet and in a relationship with man, he's never been so happy in his life. If you prize happiness, you should feel good about my brother's happiness. Religion is simply clouding your judgment, but I forgive you. He is the cleanest in both body and mind as a homosexual. Before he was dirty because he was living a lie as heterosexual.

I mourn to religiously deluded.

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