Deseret News | Beware of FLDS enforcers, Texas told

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Beware of FLDS enforcers, Texas told

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Anonymous | 4:55 a.m. June 13, 2008

Predictable Critic, you don't know jack. I know that Jeffs was rightfully convicted. I'm referring to the violations of the Texas group's civil rights. Improve your reading comprehension skills. You can also give your BS speech to innocent people who have been in prison for years because they were framed or wrongfully convicted. Try telling them that you "know better".

Paul | 5:02 a.m. June 13, 2008

I never said that I wasn't outraged by Jeffs. I'm sticking to the issue. These people in Texas weren't indicted or convicted of any crimes. Your suspicions don't equal evidence. I never claimed to know everything, but I know that you don't(or shouldn't) convict people without proof. It's been two to three months! Enough is enough.

Paul | 5:16 a.m. June 13, 2008

I was Anonymous in the other post.

I'll make this short. These people have been harassed for almost three months. The Texas Supreme Court ruled that the kidnapping was not justified due to the lack of evidence. Now, show me one conviction or indictment of one man at this ranch. Show me one arrest. You can *claim* that crimes took place. You can *claim* that there must be something. Your claims mean nothing without facts to back them. It's not up to the people to prove their innocence. You and the state must prove their guilt. That's how it works here. Don't like it? Move to China.

Comments continue below

R | 7:02 a.m. June 13, 2008

//It is common knowledge that these girls are married off WELL before they're 18. //

"Common knowledge" has a way of being horribly wrong. CPS hasn't produced enough evidence for any judge other than Barbara Walther to back them up. Why should anyone else buy their claims?

And to the people (including the Texas CPS) who say or imply that there is evidence the public isn't seeing and that said evidence could be decisive: what is that evidence? This is a child welfare case, not some top-secret military project. If you have smoking guns, go public.

Anonymous | 2:39 p.m. June 13, 2008

They CAN'T make that evidence public. It's obviously so secret that they can't even show it to the other judges.

jt | 3:08 p.m. June 13, 2008

i think noone has anything to worry about as the FLDS men are just child molesters not killers. which in my book is just as bad.

RS | 7:08 p.m. June 13, 2008

I find it very interesting that everyone is wanting to know why there are no prosecutions yet. Did anyone ever think about all the documentation that must be analyzed and sorted through in order to determine even what to go after? It is going to be some time before an official indictment comes through because Law Enforcement has only one shot (no pun intended) to get it before the grand jury.

So that being said, all of the speculation that is going on as to what law enforcement is doing or what CPS did is purely that, speculation because you do not know all of the details about the investigation both on the criminal and civil side.

Would you please stop referring to CPS imprisoning the mother's and children...the agency is not law enforcement, they are civil.

You also do not know the level of cooperation that was given or not given during the initial process.

When parents do not cooperate, CPS has no choice but to remove the children and seek court intervention to gain cooperation, such that it is at this time.

Anonymous | 7:57 p.m. June 13, 2008

RS,

The Texas State Supreme Court has ruled that the CPS had no justification to remove those children. They didn't rule that paperwork takes time. They ruled that the CPS grossly violated Texas law. And the Texas Third Court of Appeals ruled that the CPS's case was "legally and factually insufficient."

WE aren't the ones speculating. The speculation is coming entirely from those of you who refuse to accept the multiple court rulings that no evidence exists.

Beyond that, in these comments I'm reading claims of torture, rape, false imprisonment, welfare fraud, and serious gross weapons violations. (machine guns, etc) It doesn't take 2+ months to FILE charges for those offenses. When police suspect such crimes, they arrest you on the spot, even if no charges are ever filed.

How would you define cooperation? They stood there and watched while their children were taken. Are they now criminals because they didn't offer coffee to heavily armed kidnappers? If you think kidnapping is the best way to deal with social outcasts, then you're a much bigger threat to society than any fringe religion.

And prisoners are prisoners, whether the person holding them is a cop or a bartender.

Paul | 8:05 p.m. June 13, 2008

RS, we know that CPS violated these people's civil rights. We don't have to speculate. They had no right to take those kids. Don't take my word for it. Ask the Texas Supreme Court.

The Real Emma | 11:48 a.m. June 14, 2008

Go to the hospital to have your fourth baby daughter, and look up this case, it goes on and on..DRAMA...I am glad that someone used my name earlier, because this is about what I would have said."GOSSIP"! First of all, the FLDS is a religious church, I very much doubt that they intend to harm anyone, Willie Jessop looks like my Baptist pastor, HA!, I don't think he is a horrible evil man. Watching this from Illinois, I totally get the feeling that the Sheriff, Judge, and all the State Officials in this case, are just playing their game to make false allegations against the FLDS people. I'm sure of it that these people have been hurt, children torn away, their mothers running all over the State of Texas to be able to even see them. The man who posted the Judge's home information was not even FLDS. Has anything bad happened yet? No. Bad things HAVE happened to those poor women who had no rights, guns were pointed in their faces, they and their children were called liars, forced to move from their homes? These so called officials are STILL harrassing the FLDS to cover THEIR mistakes.

Paul | 9:17 p.m. June 14, 2008

Emma, that's why the people must file suits to stop the persecution. It won't stop unless and until they do. That much is obvious. CPS has a personal vendetta that won't stop on its own.

Emma | 2:58 p.m. June 15, 2008

Paul, I could not agree with you more, CPS does have a personal vendetta, that will not stop on it's own. It's truely so sad that so many innocent people had to suffer because of this, these people must file suits to really put an end to persecution.

R | 6:05 p.m. June 15, 2008

//Did anyone ever think about all the documentation that must be analyzed and sorted through in order to determine even what to go after?//

So they don't know what crimes they want to go after, but they know they want to go after something.

My prediction is that since they've got so much egg on their faces after the statutory rape nonsense didn't pan out, they'll go for the low-hanging fruit of bigamy charges to distract from their failure.

Grandpa Phil | 7:44 a.m. June 16, 2008

WRONG RS, You said, "When parents do not cooperate, CPS has choice but to remove the children.....". CPS had the LAW to regulate what they could and could not do and they violated Texas law in taking all of the children (and some adults) without attempting to find a less drastic alternative to removing them. CPS is required by law to FIRST seek a means of keeping the children in place (that could have been done by removing the males from the ranch) and then, of some abuse is found and removal is the only move left, they had to PROVE their case before a judge within 14 days in order to keep those children longer than 14 days. CPS made NO attempt to find a less drastic action than total removal of all children and then was unable to prove ANY abuse had been committed during the mandatory 14-day hearing. Judge Walther ruled for permanent removal in contradiction to the evidence presented at the 14 day hearing. That is what prompted the Appellate Court to overturn the order. That si what prompted the Supreme Court to uphold the Appellate Courts decision. CPS violate Texas law at every step.

Grandpa Phil | 7:53 a.m. June 16, 2008

Paul, R, and The Real Emma are my new friends. Well said, all three of you. It is nice to see real Americans finally with a good head on their shoulders who can see things for how they really are. I raised my hand a long time ago and swore an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies foreign and domestic. It is sad that there are domestic enemies to the Constitution but, there are also those who would defend it against such tyrannical abuses such as we have seen in Texas lately. Thank the Lord for Appellate Courts and Supreme Courts who do their jobs even when the public is against it.

BT | 12:41 p.m. June 16, 2008

Here is how it works according to public opinion. if CPS does remove, they are home wreckers. If CPS does not remove, they are leaving children in danger. i would love to see public opinion if the state just left these children there. I would also love to see anyone of you actually work a case. You have no idea what these people actually do. Their lives are devoted to children and families. The decisions they make determine if a child is safe from abuse, or even if a child dies. You can sit in your ideal world and judge while some people actually have to do the real work.
Also, just a note, the supreme court was not in aggrement on the latest decision. Also, they did find enough proof to allow the state to monitor the children on an on-going basis and to require the parents participate in services. Why do you think that is? I can't wait for the criminal cases!

To Janet: | 12:52 p.m. June 16, 2008

Who was that leader who god told would never die? Let me remeber... Uncle Roy was it? How is he doing these days? Oh, he is dead? But, but.. god said.....

Grandpa Phil | 8:14 a.m. June 17, 2008

BT, I am VERY familiar with how CPS works and what they do for and TO children. My wife and I were foster parents to emergency teenage girls for 5 years in NC. In 5 years we had over two hundred teenage foster daughters. We worked with CPS on a daily basis so don't go assuming that none of us know what CPS actually does. We got so tired of watching the abuses they caused that we made a complaint regarding the unnecessary removal of some of those girls from their homes. The next thing we knew, we were being investigated for neglect of our infant daughter because "someone" complained that my wife was not producing enough breastmilk to properly nourish her. Yoou read that right. We had to take our daughter to the Dept of Social Services to get a physical on her so they would not take her away from us. The purpose of that was to intimidate us to make us shut up. We left foster care in order to protect our own children from CPS. The Supreme Court found no such proof because CPS presented NONE to the Court. The Court only allowed them to follow-up.

Grandpa Phil | 8:38 a.m. June 17, 2008

Regarding the criminal cases, what I can't wait for is the Defense attornies getting their hands on that so-called search warrant that the Sheriff and CPS used to take all that "evidence" from all of those residences. All CPS has is the fruit of the forbidden tree - tainted evidence because they abused their authority in taking "evidence" from every house when the warrant did not include every house. It will still take a court order to allow the release of that "evidence" to even be used in a criminal action. Any prosecuting attorney worth his lisense wouldn't touch it with a 10-foot cattle prod. I get the feeling that the criminal cases will dissolve like the abuse cases did - due to lack of evidence. If they find that someone did do something illegal, I will be at the front of the pack yelling for his crucifiction; however, all we have heard so far is CPS lying and allegations turning into nothing but smoke and mirrors.

Grandpa | 12:00 p.m. June 17, 2008

NC and Texas are very different states with VERY different systems. You can't think you know how texas CPS works due to your expierences. In you case, sounds like someone made a report, it was investigated, you were found to be good parents and the state let you be. That, Grandpa, is their job. I'm truly sorry you had a false alligation. And, i'm glad there are foster parents who advocate for children. All states need more who will. It's not CPSs fault someone made a false alligation. And, why did the court allow CPS to follow up, provide services and continue investigations if there is no proof? Read what the 2 decenting judges said. And, by the way, CPS does NOT need a search warrent in Texas. and CPS took NO evidence.

To Grandpa posted 12:00 | 1:11 p.m. June 17, 2008

The title should be "to grandpa" not "Grandpa"

Grandpa Phil | 2:08 p.m. June 17, 2008

As for the NC CPS "just doing their job" and it wasn't their fault that someone else made a complaint, that is wrong, too. We had made a complaint against CPS abuses against the girls we were caring for. Many of them came to us and had no business being away from their homes. We know FULL WELL what the grounds are for taking a girl from her home and FAR TOO MANY were taken for reasons that DEFIED common sense. The subsequent abuses the girls went through while trying to get home again was heart-breaking to us. Whoever made the complaint against us did so with the sole intent of making us drop our complaints against CPS. No one would have benefited from that except them. We had been working with these people for 5 years and had an 87% success rate in getting girls back into their homes within 60 days. The attitudes of the women in the local Social Services (CPS) office where we had to take our infant daughter was horrible. They treated us EXACTLY the way CPS in texas treated those mothers. No, they are not different. If it looks like a duck and acts........

Grandpa Phil | 2:11 p.m. June 17, 2008

If CPS took no evidence, where did they get the pictures of Warren jeffs and the minor girl? They never said where they came from but the answer is obvious. And, CPS DOES need a warrant.

Grandpa Phil | 2:29 p.m. June 17, 2008

That is, assuming she was a minor since it appears that no one in the Texas CPS can tell the difference between a minor and an adult. Y'all will be wearing that egg on your face for YEARS to come. There is a lot to be said for natural consequences to poor decisions. Many of us who hold our Constitutional familial rights dear, hope that Texas feels the consequences in court for the abuses they perpetrated on those families and especially the children. Judge Walthers abused her authority and should be impeached. She is a disgrace to everyone who ever sat on that bench. We are all waiting to see how the FLDS families will follow up the abuses of authority with legal action. Federal law allows for legal redress when such abuses are conducted under the color of law. 'Nuff said.

To Grandpa | 2:54 p.m. June 17, 2008

Please, read the Texas family Code. No Warrent needed for CPS. you are incorrect on this. I believe you are taking your bad expierence with NC CPS and assuming all Texas CPS workers are the same. The workers I know are kind, caring, and have the families best interest at heart. How many Texas CPS workers have you actually dealt with? Texas is the leader in CPS change such as developing programs to keep families together, prevent abuse, and to reunify the family. Look it up. I have.
You blame posters for making assumptions about FLDS but you say, in reference to CPS, if it looks like a duck... Respectfully I would say to you, look in the mirror.

To Grandpa | 2:58 p.m. June 17, 2008

By the way, the courts are still mandating that these parents participate in services and that CPS can come at anytime to visit the children. safety measures are in place. Why would the courts decide that? Why any follow up if their was no proof of abuse? And, you saw the pics of that little girl. Can you honestly tell me you believe she is of age? Have you listened to any one who has escaped this abuse? Do we know more than those who lived it?

Grandpa Phil | 8:13 a.m. June 18, 2008

You talk about those who "escaped it". When will you people realize that the so-called experts you relied on to get the "facts" about what the FLDS are REALLY like LIED to you. They have their agendas and those agendas have nothing to do with protecting those they left behind. Go to the Truthwillprevail website and read the letter written by Martha barlow Jessop entitled "The Truth About Flora Jessop". Martha was Flora's appointed guardian at ages 14-16 up until the time she ran away. Flora had reasons for saying the things she did and there was nothing honorable about any of them. My wife and I took care of many girls like Flora while we were in foster care and I fully understand what Martha and others went through with Flora. Flora lied and you people swallowed her lies hook, line, and sinker.

The judge who mandated that parents participate in services and that CPS will have continued access is the same judge who ordered the children be taken away in the first place. Her motivations and biases are already known and her abusive and vindictive attitude belies her professionalism. She is a disgrace to her profession.

Grandpa Phil | 8:25 a.m. June 18, 2008

As for the picture of the "little girl", I never saw her face as it was blurred. Do I think it was a minor girl? Of course I do. If Jeffs is guilty of any abuse to minor girls, lynch him for all I care. The point was, CPS demonstrated that it cannot tell the difference between a minor girl and an adult female. That was a MAJOR embarrasment for CPS as they based so many of their early allegations of abuse on how many of those girls were minors. Then, holding those adult girls until their babies were born and admitting they were adults immediately afterwards demonstrates a PLAN to abuse their authority. I know how CPS works as a rule. I do not have to work with Texas agents to know what they are like; their actions at the ranch and in the stadium speak volumes regarding their attitudes. The mental health people who objectively testified of the CPS abuses were as reliable a witness as could be found. Texas CPS did not even make the slightest EFFORT to keep those families together in spite of their OBLIGATION to do so. They ripped them apart and abused them.

Grandpa Phil | 8:39 a.m. June 18, 2008

If the CPS workers you know are kind and caring people who have the families best interests at heart, then they should be the first to stand up and admonish those who abused their authority and treated those FLDS families the way they did. This incident has tarnished the reputation of them all and shown CPS to be insensitive and vindictive in their treatment of families and children. The lies that were told by a few and the cations of a few demean you all. I know it is first impulse to defend the organization, especially one not known for its tolerance of people who criticise; however, CPS as a whole bears the burden of those who acted wrongly in El Dorado. There is no defense for what they did, good intentions notwithstanding. SOmeone needs to sit down and THINK about the RIGHT way to address these allegations of abuse and then act in accordance with the laws of Texas and not contrary to them. It will take a LONG time for you to regain the trust which was abused but, a professional and OBJECTIVE approach to the problem can rebuild the trust that was lost. That's the only way.

To Grandpa | 12:34 p.m. June 18, 2008

If the parents would not have lied about ages, switched children, and told their children NOT to talk, this whole thing would have been different. You have no idea what CPS "tried" to do. CPS treated them like one family because they acted like one family! You only know what the media has told you. What do you think the purpose of the romoval was? Just to break up families? Did you know that one of the 16 year ols returned has to have special protection from a 38 year old and that 5 other pg teens are there with no protection? When this is over, the truth about how the FLDS works will come out. I am so proud of texas and our CPS system. I have not lost any trust in the CPS workers. I am, however, disappointed in the courts. But that is nothing new.

Grandpa Phil | 2:37 p.m. June 18, 2008

Spoken like a true CPS worker or boss. You go busting into a compound with guns and an armored personnel carrier, desecrate their Temple, round up all of the children and put them on buses to take them away and you expect them to COOPERATE? Are you for REAL?

The rest of the world is disappointed in CPS and the lower court that gave the order to separate. We are encouraged by the fact that the Appellate Court and the Supreme Court were able to look past the hype and the lies and make a good ruling based on actual Texas law. I know a lot more than what the media has put out; no one with any sense listens to them because they only put out what CPS put out. The role of the media was to throw gasoline on the fire CPS started in hopes that it would improve the story. Well, you are right in one respect, the Truth will come out. One thing I have learned about Truth - truth is like fire; it either heals or it destroys but it never, NEVER, leaves what it touches UNCHANGED. Hopefully, there will be good changes from this.

zxcvbnm | 7:14 p.m. June 18, 2008

So.we have no idea what CPS tried to do, lets blame the media for reporting the CPS press releases about abuses and under age girls, broken bones, possible poisoning.....and all the other CPS authorized information.
Lets blame MHMR for their report on the CPS treatment of the women and children.
Lets blame the Supreme court for upholding the law.
Lets blame everyone except CPS........oh brother....

Grandpa Phil | 8:08 a.m. June 19, 2008

I will let zxcvbnm's comment be my last word on the subject too. I am tired of CPS trying to justify their actions. There is NO justification for the way those families and especially the children were treated. They can say it was about the kids all they like but the evidence and the court testimony showed otherwise. CPS in Texas needs a MAJOR overhaul and at least one judge needs to find another line of work. And, finally, if Willie Jessop were to be elected the new Sheriff, I would laugh until I cry. That would be the PERFECT icing to this cake in CPS's face.

To Grandpa | 8:01 a.m. June 20, 2008

This is my last post. You are biased and misinformed and no longer worth my time. Funny, you assume you know my employment status. But, then again, you assume a lot. Get over your grudge with CPS and open your eyes. Can you just ignore the preg teens? At least 6, for a FACT. And 41 broken bone.. What will you say when Warrens DNA comes back and he has fathered children with teens on that ranch? Parents should protect against him. I guess when the truth comes out you will say that CPS forced children to lie about abuse. You will support anything and believe anything against CPS and for FLDS. The supreme court (which had 2 members with enough snap to disagree) GAVE the lower court power to set up protection for these children. Why? Willie says they will no longer practice under age marrage. Why? I thought it did not happen. And, Flora is not the only ex-member. Look at some of the other stories. You and zxcv are the ones who blame everyone except the parents who are responsible. by the way, CPS does not carry guns.

outraged | 2:53 p.m. June 20, 2008

Grandpa Full,

Your anger toward the CPS has you so twisted that just so you could feel vindicated you would like Willie Jessup to be sheriff??

People like you should need psychotherapy, maybe electric shock.

KH

pigiron | 11:06 a.m. June 25, 2008

To who ever posted their last post, "Can you just ignore the preg teens? At least 6, for a FACT. And 41 broken bone.." Uh...let's take a look at that shall we? That is out of over 400 kids [if it's even the truth]. Have you checked to see what the average teen pregnancy rate is in...let's say Texas? How about the average number of broken bones in children across the U. S.? They are below the average in both!! And by a lot in pregnancies. These kinds aren't just sitting around on their duffs playing Nintendo as well. Stop being so gullible.

To: pigiron | 7:33 a.m. June 30, 2008

i have to agree with the last post. It is very different to be prego by that cute boy in gym class. These girls have haveing babies with older men. Much different.

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Beware of FLDS enforcers, Texas told