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Beware of FLDS enforcers, Texas told
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jim | 6:22 a.m. June 12, 2008
Great, how about the tax payers get round the clock security protection from the
government and these out of control unaccountable judges with their own agendas?
are we getting sick and tired of the tyranical government machine yet?
Jim | 6:35 a.m. June 12, 2008
I wish Texas would just secede already. I wonder if Mexico would take them
back?
Roger | 6:45 a.m. June 12, 2008
After Waco, I'm a lot more afraid of the State and Federal Government then
I am of any religious group, regardless of my feelings toward that group. I
don't recall any incident in our nations history, where any religious order
murdered as many women and children as our government did at Waco. Lets keep
things in perspective.
Comments continue below
R | 6:45 a.m. June 12, 2008
The "moral outrage" you speak of directed at the FLDS is not over how
many wives these men have, but that they are forcing little girls into marriage
and sexual relationships with grown men. We are talking girls 11, 12, 13 years
old.
Not one of which has been found among the children of YFZ. Don't be so eager to repeat rumor and gossip as fact.
But there is no way that they would have been able to justify such a drastic move without a great deal of probable cause.
You've got to be kidding me! The tip that spawned the raid was made by a woman [Rozita Swinton, claiming to be the fictional "Sarah Barlow"] who had never been to YFZ (and was never part of the FLDS at all) against a man [Dale Barlow] who had also never set foot at YFZ. That's your "probable cause".
Not one of which has been found among the children of YFZ. Don't be so eager to repeat rumor and gossip as fact.
But there is no way that they would have been able to justify such a drastic move without a great deal of probable cause.
You've got to be kidding me! The tip that spawned the raid was made by a woman [Rozita Swinton, claiming to be the fictional "Sarah Barlow"] who had never been to YFZ (and was never part of the FLDS at all) against a man [Dale Barlow] who had also never set foot at YFZ. That's your "probable cause".
R | 6:52 a.m. June 12, 2008
//I'm also waiting for people so upset about this raid to explain why CPS
was wrong for doing this, yet Warren Jeffs gets a free pass for tearing apart
and "reassigning" families for years? Why no outcry when this
occurs?//
Well, maybe the fact that even if Warren Jeffs had torn apart every single FLDS family in North America, the people affected would be less than half of the number of children in foster care in Texas alone. (about 26k in 2003)
Well, maybe the fact that even if Warren Jeffs had torn apart every single FLDS family in North America, the people affected would be less than half of the number of children in foster care in Texas alone. (about 26k in 2003)
R | 6:58 a.m. June 12, 2008
There is no violation of civil liberties for the women over age 18 being held
if there was not sufficient evidence to substantiate that they were of legal
age. Someone's word or a home-made ID card is insufficient.
Home-made? The women who presented ID cards did not present "home-made" ID; they were subsequently backed up by the state of Utah verifying their IDs were real. The only reason authorities claimed their IDs were fake was to add them to their BS count of teen mothers. Who here regularly mistakes 37 year old women for teens?
Home-made? The women who presented ID cards did not present "home-made" ID; they were subsequently backed up by the state of Utah verifying their IDs were real. The only reason authorities claimed their IDs were fake was to add them to their BS count of teen mothers. Who here regularly mistakes 37 year old women for teens?
TetonMike | 7:15 a.m. June 12, 2008
Rockwell Porter
Grandpa Phil | 7:15 a.m. June 12, 2008
To "A Texan", people like you are the reason why the State of Texas
cannot disassociate itself from this travesty of justice. We hear people from
Texas say, "Don't blame us all" ; however, when we hear comments
like yours, everyone in Texas who has failed to stand against the tide of
injustice bears the blame for what was allowed to happen under color of law.
You sound SO MUCH like the head of CPS trying to justify what CPS did to those
children. Of course CPS supports Judge Walthers; they were all in it together
to destroy a group that was different. The CPS worker who testified at the
hearing who stated that, while there was no evidence of abuse found, they would
not be willing to return the children unless the mothers renounced their
religion SPEAKS VOLUMES for CPS's true intent and focus. Judge Walthers
and the CPS workers SHOULD be required to answer for their illegal actions and I
hope the FLDS do follow that path. If no one else is going to hold them
accountable, I hope the FLDS do.
Plato | 7:34 a.m. June 12, 2008
Amazing! The state of Texas violates the privacy and sanctity of peaceful
citizens on a hoax warrant, then kidnaps 465 citizens and declares adults minors
(one was 27 years old) and forcibly separates children from mothers without
factual cause.
The nonconfrontational FLDS people summarily forgive their tormentors and return to their homes only to be accused of threatening an out of control judge.
These people have no history of violence whatever. When is Texas going to get a clue about constitutional imperatives that they continue to ignore and then they have the audacity to cloak their guilt with "threat paranoia."
The nonconfrontational FLDS people summarily forgive their tormentors and return to their homes only to be accused of threatening an out of control judge.
These people have no history of violence whatever. When is Texas going to get a clue about constitutional imperatives that they continue to ignore and then they have the audacity to cloak their guilt with "threat paranoia."
Grandpa Phil | 7:48 a.m. June 12, 2008
Uhm, "Clearhead", time to clear it again. Federal law allows for
government agencies (Federal, State, and County) to be held accountable for
infringement of Constitutional rights under 42 US Code 1983, if that
infringement was conducted under color of law - as it was in this case. The
adult women being held by CPS DID, IN FACT, show proper identification; however,
CPS refused to accept it until immediately after their children were born. How
convenient is that? You say there were underage girls being molested and being
forced into marriage; however, CPS was unable to find more than one
"possible". CPS admitted in court that they had found no evidence of
abuse by either the mothers OR THE FATHERS. That is why the children are now
home. I agree that Judge Walthers deserves protection; everyone in our legal
system should be treated as innocent until proven guilty. That is more than she
and CPS did for the FLDS parents. Sad that she brought the NEED for protection
on herself by blatantly violating the rights of a lot of good people and by
abusing those children. Perhaps she will get some long-term protection as a
guest of the State of Texas.
Grandpa Phil | 8:32 a.m. June 12, 2008
Uhm, TetonMike, you probably meant Porter Rockwell, the Marshall of Salt Lake
City. He was accused once of shooting Governor Boggs and actually went to jail
for it I think. Years later, out in the valley, someone asked him, "Port,
did you shoot Governor Boggs?" Porter replied, "No, I didn't
shoot him; he's still alive ain't he?" Excellent story. A lot
of truth in it too as Porter was an excellent shot with a gun and never missed.
If he were alive today, I am sure he would be the subject of someone's
dossier.
John | 8:33 a.m. June 12, 2008
A little correct to thomas. The FLDS church does not have the 12. Or 12
apostles. They are just a church that sactions polygamy as part of there
beliefs. They are not part of any biblical christian church. They are law
breakers, who have no respect for the laws of the land or God. They present
themselves as innocent. But in reality they are such a bunch of perverts who use
religion as they backing. They have no history with the lords church as
organized in the bible. They are no more than a group led by a known felon who
is serving time.
Grandpa Phil | 9:18 a.m. June 12, 2008
Anyone on Porter Rockwell's hit list were considered walking corpses. Ah,
I miss the good old days when men were MEN and STOOD UP for what was right by
doing more than just TALK!!
To Paul, John Lambert, et al | 9:30 a.m. June 12, 2008
Why isn't anyone explaining why Merrill Jessop is in hiding??
Why aren't you outraged that Warren Jeffs has been ripping kids apart and "reassigning" families for years? How is that different from the CPS raid?
The CPS raid was done to protect kids. Warren stealing, reassigning, and condoning rape with 12-year-olds has accomplished nothing other than hurting kids and destroying families. I'm sorry if that's a bitter pill for you to swallow. I'm all for defending kids, not defending whacked religions led by child molesters.
Why aren't you outraged that Warren Jeffs has been ripping kids apart and "reassigning" families for years? How is that different from the CPS raid?
The CPS raid was done to protect kids. Warren stealing, reassigning, and condoning rape with 12-year-olds has accomplished nothing other than hurting kids and destroying families. I'm sorry if that's a bitter pill for you to swallow. I'm all for defending kids, not defending whacked religions led by child molesters.
R | 10:06 a.m. June 12, 2008
//The CPS raid was done to protect kids.//
To protect kids from phantom dangers, they were torn from their fathers, mothers, and siblings. To protect children from phantom dangers, authorities demonstratably lied repeatedly. To rehash an earlier comment of mine:
How? By obtaining a warrant based on a claim of abuse against someone who had never set foot at YMZ? By imprisoning them in uncomfortable, disease ridden [chickenpox, to be specific] makeshift prisons and then forcibly separating them? By pretending 37 y.o. women were teen mothers? By claiming their IDs were fake so they had an excuse to do so? That's what you call "protection"?
To protect kids from phantom dangers, they were torn from their fathers, mothers, and siblings. To protect children from phantom dangers, authorities demonstratably lied repeatedly. To rehash an earlier comment of mine:
How? By obtaining a warrant based on a claim of abuse against someone who had never set foot at YMZ? By imprisoning them in uncomfortable, disease ridden [chickenpox, to be specific] makeshift prisons and then forcibly separating them? By pretending 37 y.o. women were teen mothers? By claiming their IDs were fake so they had an excuse to do so? That's what you call "protection"?
sticks and stones | 11:04 a.m. June 12, 2008
both twist and spin and spin and spin. WHOA now i'm really gettin dizzy.
there is not one shred of evidence in either the dossier or the news atricle to
suggest that judge walther is in any danger. who's the real wild card? i
think now texas is just trying to cover their own for when they get sued.
granted there is some crimes to be dealt with regarding the flds at the yfz and
hopefully pdq, but texas needs to be dealt with too for victimizing the
innocents
Janet | 12:15 p.m. June 12, 2008
Reply To: Cynthia | 4:06 a.m. June 12, 2008
For starters Carolyn was raised in Hildale Utah to my knowledge, her father is Arthur Blackmore and his home in not located in Arizona, nor was the "sect" taken over by Warren Jeffs. "She barely escaped..." in broad daylight and she had to lie to her children to get them to go with her. As soon as her oldest daughter turned 18 she returned to her father because her mother is abusive, Betty has pictures to proove it. I read books, I don't read newspapers except on-line ones, I don't watch television very often because there is to much trash in it, I have a radio, a red cell phone, a red car and some very beautiful red flowers in my garden. I am stating the facts. Claiming that children were kept in line through the torture of animals is a putrid out right lie. Warren Jeffs has never, and never will, call himself Jesus Christ. Warren Jeffs is a mortal man and has only ever called himself such.
For starters Carolyn was raised in Hildale Utah to my knowledge, her father is Arthur Blackmore and his home in not located in Arizona, nor was the "sect" taken over by Warren Jeffs. "She barely escaped..." in broad daylight and she had to lie to her children to get them to go with her. As soon as her oldest daughter turned 18 she returned to her father because her mother is abusive, Betty has pictures to proove it. I read books, I don't read newspapers except on-line ones, I don't watch television very often because there is to much trash in it, I have a radio, a red cell phone, a red car and some very beautiful red flowers in my garden. I am stating the facts. Claiming that children were kept in line through the torture of animals is a putrid out right lie. Warren Jeffs has never, and never will, call himself Jesus Christ. Warren Jeffs is a mortal man and has only ever called himself such.
Patricia | 12:20 p.m. June 12, 2008
I've still not seen any comments on the infamous God Squad pickup trucks
that follow people around Short Creek intending to intimidate them. I suppose
they're just praying for them--yeah right! I genuinely feel sorry for the
FLDS folks on these posts. They have lied and covered up so much that they just
don't know the truth anymore. And I can understand why they will not
comment on Warren Jeff's prison "confession"--to do so would mean
that their whole belief system on which they base their lives is a
lie--that's pretty scary. And I'm tired of the whole
"prophet" thing--trust in God, not in people--they let you down every
time.
Anonymous | 12:23 p.m. June 12, 2008
Reply To: Cynthia | 4:06 a.m. June 12, 2008 continued...
"He seperatd already married couples by giving the wives to other men."
Immoral, abusive men who neglect their children and families in general, are asked to leave our society. I certainly wouldn't want to be married to one, you might. Yes their families leave them of their own free will and choice. Some families have chosen to go with the man, such as Jethro Barlow. I know his family on a more than personal basis and he treated some of his children like dirt, yet his wives chose to go with him and they seem to be happy where they are, Heaven bless them in their choice. The Prophet does recieve revelation from God about whom should marry whom and I would have it no other way. What God joins together is bound in the heavens, anything else is no good after this life. That is my own personal opinion and belief, adn many others feel the same way I do.
What comes out of your mouth is a reflection of what is in your heart.
"He seperatd already married couples by giving the wives to other men."
Immoral, abusive men who neglect their children and families in general, are asked to leave our society. I certainly wouldn't want to be married to one, you might. Yes their families leave them of their own free will and choice. Some families have chosen to go with the man, such as Jethro Barlow. I know his family on a more than personal basis and he treated some of his children like dirt, yet his wives chose to go with him and they seem to be happy where they are, Heaven bless them in their choice. The Prophet does recieve revelation from God about whom should marry whom and I would have it no other way. What God joins together is bound in the heavens, anything else is no good after this life. That is my own personal opinion and belief, adn many others feel the same way I do.
What comes out of your mouth is a reflection of what is in your heart.
John Lambert | 12:41 p.m. June 12, 2008
Janet,
Wooley never claimed to be God's prophet. Joseph F. Smith was not in harmony with him, he was the president when Wooley was excommunicated.
Wilford Woodruff was a prophet called of God. He never signed away any rights to the priesthood. You need to read the actual history of events and stop believing everything you are told.
Heber J. Grant was also a prophet and from his day on the church has recognized that anyone practicing polygamy is practicing adultery. There is no authorization from God and it is just plain adultery.
Wilford Woodruff was a good man who was able to explain the proper way to do temple work.
Wooley never claimed to be God's prophet. Joseph F. Smith was not in harmony with him, he was the president when Wooley was excommunicated.
Wilford Woodruff was a prophet called of God. He never signed away any rights to the priesthood. You need to read the actual history of events and stop believing everything you are told.
Heber J. Grant was also a prophet and from his day on the church has recognized that anyone practicing polygamy is practicing adultery. There is no authorization from God and it is just plain adultery.
Wilford Woodruff was a good man who was able to explain the proper way to do temple work.
Very Strange | 12:45 p.m. June 12, 2008
For those who are blaming DN for publishing this article, I heard the same story
on the news while watching t.v. during my break at work, and No I am not from
Utah. Perhaps your only source for news is from DN or so it would seem.
Re: Janet | 12:19 a.m. | 1:01 p.m. June 12, 2008
The FLDS followed a false prophet, John Wooley, then, and they're following
a false prophet, Warren Jeffs, now.
Jeffs even admitted he was a false prophet in a taped interview.
I'm sure there are a lot of good, decent FLDS people, but, unfortunately, your leader is a child-abusing pedophile.
In a visit that was videotaped Jan. 25 at the Purgatory Jail, Jeffs met with his brother Nephi. In a transcript, Jeffs dictated the following message to his followers:
"I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet, and I have been deceived by the powers of evil..."
Jeffs even admitted he was a false prophet in a taped interview.
I'm sure there are a lot of good, decent FLDS people, but, unfortunately, your leader is a child-abusing pedophile.
In a visit that was videotaped Jan. 25 at the Purgatory Jail, Jeffs met with his brother Nephi. In a transcript, Jeffs dictated the following message to his followers:
"I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet, and I have been deceived by the powers of evil..."
Janet | 1:03 p.m. June 12, 2008
Wilford Woodruff was a good man, the Lord accomplished many great works through
him but he did sign away his right to the Priesthood, he cannot, and neither can
anyone else change the word of God even if they think it should be done away
with. Go to FLDSTRUTH.org and read about the eight hour meeting. Wiford Woodruff
was never the key holder, as for Woolley being excommunicated I heard your
"Prophet" declare over the radio that if Joseph Smith was still alive
he would have to be excommunicated. The LDS Church denies the very foundation of
their existence. That is where FUNDAMENTALIST comes in. When a man holing the
Melchizedek Priesthood turns against the word of God he then becomes a Son of
Perdition, I do not envy Wilford Woodruff. As for Heber J. Grant, as far as I an
concerned he was an immoral man himself. That is my opinion and what I believe
to be the truth. If you don't like it, I'm sorry, you'll have to
lump it. I am perfectly capable of educationg myself, I can read and I have a
mind of my own. Thanks for your concern, I can do nicely w/oyour enlightenment.
re:Grandpa Phil | 1:39 p.m. June 12, 2008
What makes you the only authority on this subject and probably everything else??
Anonymous | 2:25 p.m. June 12, 2008
To those who keep making accusations against the FDLS members:
PLEASE, I BEG YOU, PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE TO THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT.
That body has ruled that the evidence you keep citing, doesn't exist. If you have something that will convince those judges to reverse their rulings, and save the lives of innocent children, it's your duty as human beings to make it public. If you let those children continue to get raped and beaten, you're as guilty as if you'd participated yourselves.
Please, share your knowledge of this case with the Texas Supreme Court. You're the only ones who can avert this tragedy.
PLEASE, I BEG YOU, PRESENT YOUR EVIDENCE TO THE TEXAS SUPREME COURT.
That body has ruled that the evidence you keep citing, doesn't exist. If you have something that will convince those judges to reverse their rulings, and save the lives of innocent children, it's your duty as human beings to make it public. If you let those children continue to get raped and beaten, you're as guilty as if you'd participated yourselves.
Please, share your knowledge of this case with the Texas Supreme Court. You're the only ones who can avert this tragedy.
Grandpa Phil | 2:28 p.m. June 12, 2008
LOL "re: Grandpa Phil", I will disregard the "everything
else" comment as it depicts your frustration at not being able to discuss a
subject intelligently more than it poses a criticism of me. As for this
particular topic, I have a vested interest in its outcome so I have made it my
business to be on top of the facts in this case. My vested interest is the same
one shared by millions of other Americans, that is, IF ALL OF US ARE NOT SAFE
FROM GOVERNMENT INTRUSION AND ABUSE, THEN NONE OF US ARE. I have talked to the
FLDS people on the phone, I have donated to their legal fund, I have written a
letter to Pres. Bush expressing my outrage at the overt lawlessness of the
actions by CPS and the Texas authorities in taking those children from their
parents. My wife and I worked as Foster parents in NC for 5 years and I have
seen, firsthand, how the abuses of authority by CPS can destroy the lives of
families and children. I fight for my children and your children and the FLDS
children. People will always hate something; what is needed is people who care.
We don't know if he was coerced | 2:34 p.m. June 12, 2008
Re: Janet (12:19 a.m.),
"The FLDS followed a false prophet, John Wooley, then, and they're following a false prophet, Warren Jeffs, now."
I don't believe either John Wooley or Warren Jeffs are prophets but you have no right to say the FLDS have followed and are following a false prophet.
"In a visit that was videotaped Jan. 25 at the Purgatory Jail, Jeffs met with his brother Nephi. In a transcript, Jeffs dictated the following message to his followers:
"I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet, and I have been deceived by the powers of evil..."
I saw this tape of Warren Jeffs saying this but it looked like he had to read from a paper several times while doing so, he pauses on difficult words and looks down, finishes his sentence before looking up and speaks in a monotone which indicate he may have been being coerced.
I don't think Jeff's is a prophet but I also think it's unfair to use what he says in state custody as an honest assessment of his belief. For all we know he could have been told that he wasn't going to eat for several days unless he did.
"The FLDS followed a false prophet, John Wooley, then, and they're following a false prophet, Warren Jeffs, now."
I don't believe either John Wooley or Warren Jeffs are prophets but you have no right to say the FLDS have followed and are following a false prophet.
"In a visit that was videotaped Jan. 25 at the Purgatory Jail, Jeffs met with his brother Nephi. In a transcript, Jeffs dictated the following message to his followers:
"I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet, and I have been deceived by the powers of evil..."
I saw this tape of Warren Jeffs saying this but it looked like he had to read from a paper several times while doing so, he pauses on difficult words and looks down, finishes his sentence before looking up and speaks in a monotone which indicate he may have been being coerced.
I don't think Jeff's is a prophet but I also think it's unfair to use what he says in state custody as an honest assessment of his belief. For all we know he could have been told that he wasn't going to eat for several days unless he did.
State your sources | 2:46 p.m. June 12, 2008
Janet (1:03 p.m.),
"Wiford Woodruff was never the key holder, as for Woolley being excommunicated I heard your "Prophet" declare over the radio that if Joseph Smith was still alive he would have to be excommunicated."
I think it only fair that you provide your source for this information and the details including who the prophet was and who he was speaking to.
"The LDS Church denies the very foundation of their existence."
I have never heard a leader of the LDS Church deny the foundation of the LDS Church so I think it only fair that you provide your source.
Of course you aren't a member of the academic community and don't need to be held to the same strict standards but you do need to be held to the minimum standard of stating your source when making claims of fact and are required to provide enough detail that people who read what you have said can verify its legitimacy.
"Wiford Woodruff was never the key holder, as for Woolley being excommunicated I heard your "Prophet" declare over the radio that if Joseph Smith was still alive he would have to be excommunicated."
I think it only fair that you provide your source for this information and the details including who the prophet was and who he was speaking to.
"The LDS Church denies the very foundation of their existence."
I have never heard a leader of the LDS Church deny the foundation of the LDS Church so I think it only fair that you provide your source.
Of course you aren't a member of the academic community and don't need to be held to the same strict standards but you do need to be held to the minimum standard of stating your source when making claims of fact and are required to provide enough detail that people who read what you have said can verify its legitimacy.
No coersion | 2:49 p.m. June 12, 2008
There's absolutely NO PROOF, of even hint thereof, that Warren Jeffs'
confession was coerced. If there had been any coercion, Nephi would have
immediately run to the press about it.
Re: Very Strange | 2:56 p.m. June 12, 2008
It seems that the argument here, or one of the many, is that the individuals
listed in DN are being "slandered and prosicuted for their religious
beliefs" by goverment officials. The original document was never intended
to become public knowledge. It was meant to disclose VALID information gathered
by Wa. County officials after months and months of extensive investigation to
Texas officials to assist in the SECURITY of their court precedings.
That's it. Only a few out of the people listed were said to "possibly
become violent". These assessments were made by qualified officers that
were present in the original precedings in St. George. The article picked apart
this many paged document and published certain parts in a way meant to cause a
scandal. This is in no way the fault of the officers communicating via standard
procedure.
It only takes a couple of people to stir the pot. And even good honest people can act out of character in extreme circumstances. Why not at least be prepared?
It only takes a couple of people to stir the pot. And even good honest people can act out of character in extreme circumstances. Why not at least be prepared?
There wasn't probable cause | 3:02 p.m. June 12, 2008
R,
"You've got to be kidding me! The tip that spawned the raid was made by a woman [Rozita Swinton, claiming to be the fictional "Sarah Barlow"] who had never been to YFZ (and was never part of the FLDS at all) against a man [Dale Barlow] who had also never set foot at YFZ. That's your "probable cause".
That's the substance of this issue. To claim that the police had probable cause to take 400+ children and several adults based on a SINGLE phone call is ignorant. That is not probable cause and if it was I want to know the posters who are saying this so I can make a few phone calls to the police and watch as their children are taken based on my FAKE phone calls.
A simple trace (caller ID) would have demonstrated the phone call didn't come from the YFZ Ranch and DIDN'T EVEN ORIGINATE in Texas. We know the police can pinpoint the location of a cell phone making a phone call by getting a warrant to do so and the phone company will tell them a 5 mile radius, and definately the state. There was probable cause for a phone trace.
"You've got to be kidding me! The tip that spawned the raid was made by a woman [Rozita Swinton, claiming to be the fictional "Sarah Barlow"] who had never been to YFZ (and was never part of the FLDS at all) against a man [Dale Barlow] who had also never set foot at YFZ. That's your "probable cause".
That's the substance of this issue. To claim that the police had probable cause to take 400+ children and several adults based on a SINGLE phone call is ignorant. That is not probable cause and if it was I want to know the posters who are saying this so I can make a few phone calls to the police and watch as their children are taken based on my FAKE phone calls.
A simple trace (caller ID) would have demonstrated the phone call didn't come from the YFZ Ranch and DIDN'T EVEN ORIGINATE in Texas. We know the police can pinpoint the location of a cell phone making a phone call by getting a warrant to do so and the phone company will tell them a 5 mile radius, and definately the state. There was probable cause for a phone trace.
Re: Paul | 3:15 p.m. June 12, 2008
"your statement that they must have something on these people is complete
and utter nonsense."
How would you know Paul? Lead investigator? Yeah, didn't think so. Are you so arrogant that you believe that you know everything that there is to know? Everything that has gone on in these FLDS communities? Can you not admit that *maybe* months of investigation may have uncovered some things of which you are not aware?
Im not speaking of the going ons in Texas because I don't have any first hand knowledge of what went on inside those walls. However, the investigations in Hilldale and Colorado City unearthed enough evidence to convict Warren Jeffs of his crimes. Is it possible that this one girl was the only girl that he allowed to be raped repeatedly? Possible yes. Probable? No. Are you so sure of your statements that you'd send your own teenaged daughter to FLDS summer camp? I doubt it.
All I am saying this that Washington County had more than enough reason to suspect POSSIBLE violence from key players in the FLDS community. Why not plan for any eventuality?
How would you know Paul? Lead investigator? Yeah, didn't think so. Are you so arrogant that you believe that you know everything that there is to know? Everything that has gone on in these FLDS communities? Can you not admit that *maybe* months of investigation may have uncovered some things of which you are not aware?
Im not speaking of the going ons in Texas because I don't have any first hand knowledge of what went on inside those walls. However, the investigations in Hilldale and Colorado City unearthed enough evidence to convict Warren Jeffs of his crimes. Is it possible that this one girl was the only girl that he allowed to be raped repeatedly? Possible yes. Probable? No. Are you so sure of your statements that you'd send your own teenaged daughter to FLDS summer camp? I doubt it.
All I am saying this that Washington County had more than enough reason to suspect POSSIBLE violence from key players in the FLDS community. Why not plan for any eventuality?
Warren Jeffs Confession | 3:31 p.m. June 12, 2008
"I saw this tape of Warren Jeffs saying this but it looked like he had to
read from a paper several times while doing so, he pauses on difficult words and
looks down, finishes his sentence before looking up and speaks in a monotone
which indicate he may have been being coerced."
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? This is getting ridiculous. Why would the prosocution risk a false confession of that nature? It didn't matter to the case if he was a prophet or not. He forced little girls into underage marriage, resulting in their rape. This has been proven. Who cares if he's a Prophet? If I were FLDS, I would pray that he is a false Prophet.
ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? This is getting ridiculous. Why would the prosocution risk a false confession of that nature? It didn't matter to the case if he was a prophet or not. He forced little girls into underage marriage, resulting in their rape. This has been proven. Who cares if he's a Prophet? If I were FLDS, I would pray that he is a false Prophet.
Re: Janet | 1:03 p.m. | 3:31 p.m. June 12, 2008
"Wilford Woodruff was a good man, the Lord accomplished many great works
through him but he did sign away his right to the Priesthood, he cannot, and
neither can anyone else change the word of God even if they think it should be
done away with."
You obviously don't believe in prophets then, because a true prophet is first and foremost, a mouth-piece of the Lord.
God can and does change His laws to suit His purposes. Even a cursory study of the scriptures is sufficient evidence to prove that God's laws have changed.
You eat pork. People during the time of Christ were forbidden from eating pork.
They drank wine. You are forbidden from drinking wine.
You obviously don't believe in prophets then, because a true prophet is first and foremost, a mouth-piece of the Lord.
God can and does change His laws to suit His purposes. Even a cursory study of the scriptures is sufficient evidence to prove that God's laws have changed.
You eat pork. People during the time of Christ were forbidden from eating pork.
They drank wine. You are forbidden from drinking wine.
Get the facts straight | 4:17 p.m. June 12, 2008
Re: Get the issues straight | 1:20 a.m. June 12, 2008
The prosecutions ARE against rape. It is not only against rape in the forced sense, but also in statutory as a very large percentage of these women are married in their early teens. The focus is on those men with underage wives... not on those involved in plural marriages with appropriately aged women. These issues haven't been as well publicized because such details wouldn't be beneficial to the image the FLDS are trying to portray. I personally believe that if a grown woman chooses to be a part of a plural marriage, it�s not my place to judge, but the issue of young girls being forced into marriage with much older men is just unacceptable.
The prosecutions ARE against rape. It is not only against rape in the forced sense, but also in statutory as a very large percentage of these women are married in their early teens. The focus is on those men with underage wives... not on those involved in plural marriages with appropriately aged women. These issues haven't been as well publicized because such details wouldn't be beneficial to the image the FLDS are trying to portray. I personally believe that if a grown woman chooses to be a part of a plural marriage, it�s not my place to judge, but the issue of young girls being forced into marriage with much older men is just unacceptable.
zoar | 4:17 p.m. June 12, 2008
Janet,
Janet
I have studied the manifesto and the arguments for each side are very compelling but lead me to no definite conclusion. This has persuaded me not to join in persecuting those who believe and practice the principle of plural marriage. Peradventure, I may be going against God. Just because the LDS Church has forbidden its members from practicing polygamy, does not give us the right to revile others who believe differently. How soon we forget our own history, how the Mother Church was persecuted for its peculiar beliefs, fueled by the hate of apostates.
I can find no place in the scriptures where the Lord tells us to persecute those who do not have the same beliefs, in fact we are admonished by Him to contend against no Church.
Janet
I have studied the manifesto and the arguments for each side are very compelling but lead me to no definite conclusion. This has persuaded me not to join in persecuting those who believe and practice the principle of plural marriage. Peradventure, I may be going against God. Just because the LDS Church has forbidden its members from practicing polygamy, does not give us the right to revile others who believe differently. How soon we forget our own history, how the Mother Church was persecuted for its peculiar beliefs, fueled by the hate of apostates.
I can find no place in the scriptures where the Lord tells us to persecute those who do not have the same beliefs, in fact we are admonished by Him to contend against no Church.
RE: stu | 4:22 p.m. June 12, 2008
The police are creating all of this to prove the need for law enforcement? Take
a look around. In a nation running rampant with murder and violence who needs
to make things up.
Anonymous | 4:34 p.m. June 12, 2008
"The prosecutions ARE against rape."
What prosecutions?
There haven't even been any charges filed. None. There is not a single person living in the YFZ ranch who's been charged with ANYTHING relating to the removal of their children. All we've seen is proclamations that these people are evil. But the job of the justice system is to prosecute crimes, not to issue press releases. Yet, they've prosecuted no one.
Additionally, will someone please give their sources for their accusations? If I'm wrong, I'd really like to know. But the accusations I'm reading here go well beyond the worst of the tabloid stories I've read. If half of what some here are saying is true, the FDLS members belong in jail. Can you offer any reasons why they're still free? Can you offer any reasons why multiple courts have ruled that they've done nothing wrong?
What prosecutions?
There haven't even been any charges filed. None. There is not a single person living in the YFZ ranch who's been charged with ANYTHING relating to the removal of their children. All we've seen is proclamations that these people are evil. But the job of the justice system is to prosecute crimes, not to issue press releases. Yet, they've prosecuted no one.
Additionally, will someone please give their sources for their accusations? If I'm wrong, I'd really like to know. But the accusations I'm reading here go well beyond the worst of the tabloid stories I've read. If half of what some here are saying is true, the FDLS members belong in jail. Can you offer any reasons why they're still free? Can you offer any reasons why multiple courts have ruled that they've done nothing wrong?
Re: R | 4:49 p.m. June 12, 2008
As to your claim that no underage wives were found in the compound in Texas...
explain the number of underage girls who were found to be pregnant or mothers
themselves. And why would they not comment about the fathers of those
children... because that would incriminate their adult partners. And I have
seen with my own eyes very young girls with their husbands (and their babies) in
Utah... and as quite a large chunk of Hilldale residents were transferred to the
Texas compound I'd say that the accusations are not unfounded. Gossip? I
think not... I've been there and seen it.
As to probable cause, I'd like to know how you can be so certain that months of investigation by local law enforcement and FBI turned up absolutely nothing.
As to probable cause, I'd like to know how you can be so certain that months of investigation by local law enforcement and FBI turned up absolutely nothing.
Re: Re: R | 5:11 p.m. June 12, 2008
Those "underage girls who were found to be pregnant or mothers
themselves," turned out to be mostly adults. If I remember correctly,
they're down to ONE who MIGHT actually be underage. Considering this
country's teenage motherhood rate, that's a surprisingly low
number.
And, once again, where are the prosecutions for these alleged crimes? Why does Texas continue to allow these rapists to walk the streets? Why do the courts continue to rule that they AREN'T rapists?
And, once again, where are the prosecutions for these alleged crimes? Why does Texas continue to allow these rapists to walk the streets? Why do the courts continue to rule that they AREN'T rapists?
Anonymous | 5:19 p.m. June 12, 2008
"As to probable cause, I'd like to know how you can be so certain that
months of investigation by local law enforcement and FBI turned up absolutely
nothing."
Because the Texas State Supreme Court ruled that they had turned up absolutely nothing.
Because the Texas State Supreme Court ruled that they had turned up absolutely nothing.
The udge | 5:37 p.m. June 12, 2008
was a threat and should be prosecuted now that all has come out
We can not let this go un checked
We can not let this go un checked
What crime? | 6:05 p.m. June 12, 2008
If there were rapes and beatings of girls going on, why weren't the men
changed with rape and assualt? NO EVIDENCE! Their crime was polygamy! Very
politically incorrect for reasons of hypocrisy! How many people fornicate in
this country? Is that somehow "ok", but being married to more than one
spouse is immoral? FLDS committed the crime of being politically incorrect. Is
your religion (or lack thereof) on the governments approval list? Waco and Ruby
Ridge..who is next? Maybe you! Wake up America, this is an abuse of power like
we see in Cuba,Iran or China. These kinds of things should never happen in this
country. Only if we allow them to happen! Vote the bums out of office! This
issue has very little to do with polygamy and much to do about freedom.
R | 7:27 p.m. June 12, 2008
//explain the number of underage girls who were found to be pregnant or mothers
themselves.//
Simple: the people who conducted the raid were determined to find underage girls, so they pretended grown women were the teen mothers they were desperate to find.
Simple: the people who conducted the raid were determined to find underage girls, so they pretended grown women were the teen mothers they were desperate to find.
Exactly! | 9:01 p.m. June 12, 2008
"I personally believe that if a grown woman chooses to be a part of a
plural marriage, it�s not my place to judge, but the issue
of young girls being forced into marriage with much older men is just
unacceptable."
Well said.
Well said.
Anonymous | 9:04 p.m. June 12, 2008
"...ONE who MIGHT actually be underage. Considering this country's
teenage motherhood rate, that's a surprisingly low number."
So "one" is okay? How many do you think it should take before someone steps in?
It is common knowledge that these girls are married off WELL before they're 18.
So "one" is okay? How many do you think it should take before someone steps in?
It is common knowledge that these girls are married off WELL before they're 18.
From the Creek | 9:43 p.m. June 12, 2008
"It is common knowledge that these girls are married off WELL before
they're 18."
Really? I can name several FLDS girls over 18 who aren't married. Some are in their early 20's.
"So "one" is okay? How many do you think it should take before someone steps in?"
Notice, the keyword here was "MIGHT". For all I know, you "might" have a meth lab in your basement. I don't have any proof it isn't true, so you must be guilty until you can prove to me otherwise. That seems to be the mentality of far too many people -- they want the burden of proof to be on the FLDS to prove that abuse DIDN'T happen. I am pleased to see that far more people still believe in being presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Let's not throw away our God-given Constitution for a witch-hunt. We can't afford to let the rights of the innocent be violated just so we can catch a few "perverts." Wake up, Americans! An unpopular group or a minority has just as many rights as any other group, and we all deserve equal protection of our rights.
Really? I can name several FLDS girls over 18 who aren't married. Some are in their early 20's.
"So "one" is okay? How many do you think it should take before someone steps in?"
Notice, the keyword here was "MIGHT". For all I know, you "might" have a meth lab in your basement. I don't have any proof it isn't true, so you must be guilty until you can prove to me otherwise. That seems to be the mentality of far too many people -- they want the burden of proof to be on the FLDS to prove that abuse DIDN'T happen. I am pleased to see that far more people still believe in being presumed innocent until proven guilty.
Let's not throw away our God-given Constitution for a witch-hunt. We can't afford to let the rights of the innocent be violated just so we can catch a few "perverts." Wake up, Americans! An unpopular group or a minority has just as many rights as any other group, and we all deserve equal protection of our rights.
re:from the creek | 11:36 p.m. June 12, 2008
don't you mean "up a creek"? If everything so's great about
the FLDS brainwashing compounds, why is Merrill in hiding?
Bartleby | 12:01 a.m. June 13, 2008
Beware the CPS Enforcers, is more like it.
Perpetrators of Maltreatment (per 100,000 children)
CPS: Physical abuse: 160
Parents: 50
CPS, Sexual Abuse: 112
Parents: 13
Fatalities, CPS: 6.4
Parents: 1.5
Source: National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN), Washington
Perpetrators of Maltreatment (per 100,000 children)
CPS: Physical abuse: 160
Parents: 50
CPS, Sexual Abuse: 112
Parents: 13
Fatalities, CPS: 6.4
Parents: 1.5
Source: National Center on Child Abuse and Neglect (NCCAN), Washington
Paul | 4:49 a.m. June 13, 2008
Get The Issues Straight, I repeat. What man from Texas has been indicted for any
crime during this two-month witch hunt? They obviously have nothing.
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