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Washington County sends dossiers of select FLDS members to Texas officials
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Never been inside an FLDS school | 4:36 p.m. June 11, 2008
re-Uneducated: I've never been inside an FLDS school to see what they
teach, but I expect that they teach basic reading and writing and math--the same
tools that enabled my children to excell in college without going to traditional
high school.
The FLDS take on history is probably unique to them, but have you ever read the history books of a middle eastern country's schools? Or China? Or Russia? How about Venezuela's? Each culture teaches history by its own perspectives and you and I wouldn't agree with them, either.
However, many people in less industrialized cultures have only an 8th grade education, plus vocational training (check out the UK and some of the other European countries--if you are not going on to college, you're shifted to vocational education). We pretend everyone's going to college and don't prepare our non-college students for ANYTHING!
My objection was to the assumption that anyone not educated a certain way would, of necessity, be uneducated. If, as the NEA says, education is to prepare you to function in society (as its leaders determine) then perhaps the FLDS are doing just that!
And finally, anyone who can read fluently and enjoys reading can educate himself.
The FLDS take on history is probably unique to them, but have you ever read the history books of a middle eastern country's schools? Or China? Or Russia? How about Venezuela's? Each culture teaches history by its own perspectives and you and I wouldn't agree with them, either.
However, many people in less industrialized cultures have only an 8th grade education, plus vocational training (check out the UK and some of the other European countries--if you are not going on to college, you're shifted to vocational education). We pretend everyone's going to college and don't prepare our non-college students for ANYTHING!
My objection was to the assumption that anyone not educated a certain way would, of necessity, be uneducated. If, as the NEA says, education is to prepare you to function in society (as its leaders determine) then perhaps the FLDS are doing just that!
And finally, anyone who can read fluently and enjoys reading can educate himself.
From the Creek | 5:26 p.m. June 11, 2008
I was educated in the public school system through 9th grade. Then, I went to
two years of private FLDS schooling. Let me tell you, I learned more in those
two years than I learned through all my previous years of school. And I'm
not talking about just FLDS doctrine, but general education -- reading, writing,
spelling, literature, algebra, geometry, geography, drafting, science,
accounting, and building skills.
"And finally, anyone who can read fluently and enjoys reading can educate himself."
That's exactly right. I'm continually educating myself through reading and studying to learn new skills.
"And finally, anyone who can read fluently and enjoys reading can educate himself."
That's exactly right. I'm continually educating myself through reading and studying to learn new skills.
Comments continue below
Moniker | 6:59 p.m. June 11, 2008
Hmmmmm. What would be the purpose in warning Texas about some people most of
whom the warning party says have shown no tendency toward violence. But they
might? Since they are good a staring(alleged)Really? When their children were
taken they could have reacted with violenct, but, they didn't.
Whoever sent these allegations, you should be ashamed of yourself. You don't do a very good job of representing Christianity. And what kind of newspaper uses un-named sources when they in fact have the name of the public employees who issued the warning? This is not standard practice - this was no leak, the names were on the emails. Is the LDS Church controlling the content?
Allegations seem to rule the day. I wouldn't want to live polygamy myself, but I see clearly that this is no longer about the FLDS practice, it's about persecution and slander.
Whoever sent these allegations, you should be ashamed of yourself. You don't do a very good job of representing Christianity. And what kind of newspaper uses un-named sources when they in fact have the name of the public employees who issued the warning? This is not standard practice - this was no leak, the names were on the emails. Is the LDS Church controlling the content?
Allegations seem to rule the day. I wouldn't want to live polygamy myself, but I see clearly that this is no longer about the FLDS practice, it's about persecution and slander.
Just Wondering | 10:05 p.m. June 11, 2008
I would like to agree that the publishing of this list is one of the bigest
examples of irresponsible journalism that I've ever seen! DN published a
confidential security e-mail (that was not addressed to them or ever intended to
be public knowledge)exchanged between two Law Enforcement agencies. This
document was intended to PREVENT any potential problems and attempt to ensure a
fair trial. On this list most of the individuals mentioned were noted that they
were not likely to be violent. To address the many comments about staring
& intimidation, Law Enforcement personel receive many hours of training on
how to observe and interpret body language, they are experts at this and their
testimonies are admissable in court. Let's place the blame where it
belongs, if DN had not published a piece of CONFIDENTIAL corespondance there
would have been no public exposure for the people listed in this report! Shame
on you DN and shame on all of you who are too ignorant to figure this out on
your own!
Wake up! | 10:07 p.m. June 11, 2008
The document that the Deseret News is using entirely out of context here was
writen BY a law enforcement agency FOR a law enforcement agency. This record
was not meant for public eye. Deseret News is responsible for any
"slander" accusations.
The extensive investigation that went on regarding the case in Washington County uncovered things that the public has no knowledge of... nor should they.
Wake up and get a clue. Anything could happen at anytime. It would be irresponsible to expect less.
The extensive investigation that went on regarding the case in Washington County uncovered things that the public has no knowledge of... nor should they.
Wake up and get a clue. Anything could happen at anytime. It would be irresponsible to expect less.
Mike L. | 11:53 p.m. June 11, 2008
The State of Utah maintains approximately 800 thousand dossier's on various
people who those in Utah law-enforcement believe are a threat to society in
general.
I know this to be a fact. I actually viewed the State's inner web "website" that contains this information.
Find a state employee with enough rank/power and they can access this inner web website and obtain information simply by entering the person's name or a birth date.
By entering a birthdate only, one brings up hundreds, sometimes over a thousand names and all one must do is click the name of a specific individual and up comes the file on the person.
Many of those people have no criminal or violent history at all. Yet, their is information listed in these dossier's that tends to portray these individuals as violent threats to society.
Now that's scary.
I know this to be a fact. I actually viewed the State's inner web "website" that contains this information.
Find a state employee with enough rank/power and they can access this inner web website and obtain information simply by entering the person's name or a birth date.
By entering a birthdate only, one brings up hundreds, sometimes over a thousand names and all one must do is click the name of a specific individual and up comes the file on the person.
Many of those people have no criminal or violent history at all. Yet, their is information listed in these dossier's that tends to portray these individuals as violent threats to society.
Now that's scary.
Clueless | 11:53 p.m. June 11, 2008
You people that are bashing the Wa. County investigators for "slander"
have no idea of the things that they have uncovered concerning these trials.
You are clueless. The investigators were immersed in this case for months.
They interviewed hundreds. How about you? 5 minutes of reading an
irresponsible piece of sub-par journalism makes you an expert the facts of the
case and the strangers involved? Get a clue. The dossiers were provided to
help provide security for the proceedings and help pinpoint any POSSIBLE
problems. I'm amazed by some of these responses. They're really
ignorant and overlook the purpose of the document from which these
"quotes" were taken out of context.
Janet | 11:55 p.m. June 11, 2008
Reply To: Anonymous | 12:44 p.m. June 11, 2008
Dear Anonamous,
They have not locked Uncle Warren up, he is in God's hands and it would do you well to leave him there. A little tact wouldn't hurt you either.
DN can print whatever they want, truth or not, it's a free county. To all those seeking to do harm to the FLDS, I want you to know I follow the example of Warren Jeffs, I forgive you and leave judgemnet to God. I will continue to stand for what I believe. "The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong but only to those who endure to the end". Shakespeare
"Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Matthew 5:10-12
Dear Anonamous,
They have not locked Uncle Warren up, he is in God's hands and it would do you well to leave him there. A little tact wouldn't hurt you either.
DN can print whatever they want, truth or not, it's a free county. To all those seeking to do harm to the FLDS, I want you to know I follow the example of Warren Jeffs, I forgive you and leave judgemnet to God. I will continue to stand for what I believe. "The race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong but only to those who endure to the end". Shakespeare
"Blessed are they who are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye when men shall revile you and persecute you, and say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you." Matthew 5:10-12
Question | 11:56 p.m. June 11, 2008
Does a growling dog have to actually BITE you before you consider it a threat?
Grandpa Phil | 8:14 a.m. June 12, 2008
Jann, I could start with "Anonymous at 12:44 PM", "sticking
together", and "Warren" and go on from there. People are not as
stupid as some of you FLDS haters seem to think. Some of us that follow this
story are actually intelligent and have a vested interest in how the
Constitutional issues pan out. I don't really give a care about FLDS
particular religious beliefs. CPS has already acknowledged that the child abuse
they alleged at first simply was not there. If the criminal investigation finds
anything, I will be among the first to call for a lynching; however, I really
believe that investigation will pan out just as the abuse one did - just a lot
of smoke and mirrors on the part of CPS. What I do care about is a bunch of
adolescent children with nothing else to do coming into these blogs and
pretending to be something they are not just to stir up more controversy. It is
hard to tell children to "grow up" but some of the adults in here
could sure stand to do some growing up.
Grandpa Phil | 8:23 a.m. June 12, 2008
To "Question", I have yet to hear any of the FLDS "growl".
To Janet and Grandpa | 9:36 a.m. June 12, 2008
To Janet:
Blessed are they who are persecuted for rigtousness.. yes, I agree. However, Warren is locked up and is not rightous. he said so himself. he even tried to bash himself against the prison walls for his own blood atonement. He is an evil man.
to Grandpa: CPS have NEVER said abuse did not happen. That is a lie and you know it. Tell me, what age should a girl be allowed to marry? Why did "Big Willie" say you guys are changing your practice?
Blessed are they who are persecuted for rigtousness.. yes, I agree. However, Warren is locked up and is not rightous. he said so himself. he even tried to bash himself against the prison walls for his own blood atonement. He is an evil man.
to Grandpa: CPS have NEVER said abuse did not happen. That is a lie and you know it. Tell me, what age should a girl be allowed to marry? Why did "Big Willie" say you guys are changing your practice?
Grandpa Phil | 12:56 p.m. June 12, 2008
Well "To Janet and Grandpa", looks like DN is not going to post my
first reply to you so I will spell it out simple for you. If you take the time
to actually READ the court documents presented to the Supreme Court like some of
us did, you will see that CPS did, in fact, state that they had found no
evidence of abuse by either the mothers or the fathers. That is the reason the
lower court decision was ordered to be vacated, because the lower court ordered
that the children be held longer than 14 days when there was no evidence of
abuse presented to the court.
I am not FLDS. I live in NC with my children and grandchildren but many of us are watching the developments in this case closely. We are watching to see if bigots like you prevail in your efforts to hurt those children or if the authorities prevail in depriving these families of their rights under the Constitution. I could not care less about warren jeffs or FLDS beliefs. Their rights are OUR rights and, if ALL are not safe, NONE of us are. Now take your bigotry somewhere else.
I am not FLDS. I live in NC with my children and grandchildren but many of us are watching the developments in this case closely. We are watching to see if bigots like you prevail in your efforts to hurt those children or if the authorities prevail in depriving these families of their rights under the Constitution. I could not care less about warren jeffs or FLDS beliefs. Their rights are OUR rights and, if ALL are not safe, NONE of us are. Now take your bigotry somewhere else.
Interloper | 9:56 p.m. June 12, 2008
Actually, twenty females, five of them still minors, were found to have been
impregnated while 16 or younger. Some of the adults had just turned 18. The
court that was not sufficient evidence for the state custody of all the children
based on that evidence.
Interloper | 10:04 p.m. June 12, 2008
Amplification: The court ruled there was not enough evidence for the state to
maintain custody of all the children. The investigations continue. It may be
months before we know which children will be found to have been abused and be
removed. One of the tells about the people who say the courts found no abuse
is that they conveniently forget that enough evidence was found to continue
investigating.
Anonymous | 12:26 a.m. June 14, 2008
I am, um, entertained by the poster here writing about state dossiers on
everyone. I do not believe or disbelieve this comment, but I think it merits
more investigation. People in responsible positions are free to observe and draw
whatever conclusions they want. ONE problem with the dossiers on everyone
concept, though, is there is no recourse if there are errors, even big
errors.
To everyone here bashing the DN for publishing this info, this info is available because of a GOOD public records law! Y'all oughta be GRATEFUL for that.
I am also, um, entertained that there is only one woman on the list. In her case, it's really not hard for me to fathom why people whose job it is to maintain the security of a jail might just POSSIBLY be alarmed by the nature of Ruth Cooke's visions. Whether she would actually DO anything is a different problem.
It seems the FLDS are a deeply sexist outfit, but if law enforcement has only one woman on their list, I still think there is a decent chance they have no clue about important dynamics within the FLDS
To everyone here bashing the DN for publishing this info, this info is available because of a GOOD public records law! Y'all oughta be GRATEFUL for that.
I am also, um, entertained that there is only one woman on the list. In her case, it's really not hard for me to fathom why people whose job it is to maintain the security of a jail might just POSSIBLY be alarmed by the nature of Ruth Cooke's visions. Whether she would actually DO anything is a different problem.
It seems the FLDS are a deeply sexist outfit, but if law enforcement has only one woman on their list, I still think there is a decent chance they have no clue about important dynamics within the FLDS
Emma from Illinois | 12:03 a.m. June 16, 2008
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Is this the way the
Southwestern States work? What in the world is this!!! Have the people from
Texas, and her sister States had a proper education? Mug shots, now, for what?
Staring at people in court? Where is the crime? Is this perhaps the anti-FLDS
people trying to justify their cruel actions..."Look we had good reason to
take nursing babies away from their mother's arms, point guns at them, act
like Nazi officers, hold adult women hostage"..., is this their
justification for their actions? This is a complete outrage!!! All that this is,
is an action to make the Texas Officials involved in this raid look better after
what they did. All they did was make themselves look...well...stupid, I
don't know the word for it. I am so glad that my daughters, and I are in
one of the educated States, this would not happen in Illinois. As soon as I read
this article all I could do is laugh. Don't go to court down there, and
give menacing stares, you will have to provide a mug shot for the public! Oh, I
forgot, Anna Nicole Smith was educated in Texas...
its2latebaby | 12:03 a.m. June 16, 2008
DesNews staff: please tell us you didn't take this list seriously. You know
the history of the washington county deputies, right? This trumps the pot
calling the kettle black. You may even have some ex- deputies from W.C. working
in your neck of the woods.
fomer flds | 8:03 p.m. June 16, 2008
my kids went to flds school's for three years the are now in public school
and every one is behind my oldest is going to 7th grade and can only read 3rd
grade level thabks flds I am just glad i woke up and wish some more would for
the sake of there children
Grandpa Phil | 8:21 a.m. June 17, 2008
Uhm, "former flds", I doubt that FLDS schools are to blame for your
children being behind. Your own spelling and grammar are an excellent
indication that the problem is at home.
Thanks "Emma from Illinois" nice post. By the way, Anna Nicole Smith was probably "educated" in the same school that "former flds" went to.
Thanks "Emma from Illinois" nice post. By the way, Anna Nicole Smith was probably "educated" in the same school that "former flds" went to.
A visitor | 9:45 a.m. June 19, 2008
The ESP abilities of the law enforcement staff are truly amazing. They noted
that one of the FLDS members present - "Seemed to be taking mental notes
of the security staff present."
This person was sitting there, perhaps not as good at "staring" as some of the others, so instead, took a different tact and strategy, that of observing who was in the room. This type of behavior would make me nervous if I observed it.
Everyone knows that "taking mental notes" is a subversive activity which should be outlawed.
This person was sitting there, perhaps not as good at "staring" as some of the others, so instead, took a different tact and strategy, that of observing who was in the room. This type of behavior would make me nervous if I observed it.
Everyone knows that "taking mental notes" is a subversive activity which should be outlawed.
This is funny | 6:25 p.m. Aug. 14, 2008
lol I have spent the last half an hour reading this and have to say Thanks for
the Laugh. I did how ever note that as I was laughing about this, that some of
the stuff stated in several of the posts could be considered as a threat. So if
your concern is if a stare is considered threatning, you might be a little more
careful with your posts and what your putting in to words. Just a thought thanks
for the entertainment.
peace out
peace out
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Ok now for the staring pole. Is staring against the law or not.
Just to add a bit of humor to the mix here. If you are bothered by a stare just reach up and pick your nose. I will leave it to each individual to determine finger debth.....in every case I have tested the person fixing the gaze will look the other way.
Mama he's looking at me can be solved without calling mama with a simple finger gesture....ok now children we can play nice now......on with the trial.
If law enforcement is so keen on preventing staring they can start with eliminating the perp walk......just a suggestion.