Deseret News | Reader comments: Utah's heavy tax burden

Reader comments
Utah's heavy tax burden

Anonymous | 12:40 a.m. June 11, 2008

All we need to look at is the fact that in per pupil spending utah ranks 51st out of 51.

Pathetic.

Rick | 2:49 a.m. June 11, 2008

Guess what? Research shows money per pupil doesn't equal better education. I live where they have gobs more money for schools, fancy smartboards in every classroom, higher teacher salaries, and you know what? Only 60% graduate. So money doesn't equal better education. Utah actually is doing quite well in their education system, even though it could always be better.

The better question is if we spent more on education, HOW would we spend it? Just throwing money at it doesn't mean it will get better.

Overtaxed | 6:43 a.m. June 11, 2008

Having a property tax says that I never own my property -- 'm just renting from the government. In additional, regardless of income I still have to pay my property taxes or I lose my home. Who cares how we compare to other states? Property taxes (and all taxes in aggregate) are too high. Fund our schools some other way. And let's stop wasting our precious tax money.

Comments continue below

Anonymous | 6:48 a.m. June 11, 2008

I agree. Per pupil spending is all that matters. Actual performance is not necessarily a concern. We should be increasing spending for spending's sake.

Utah Schools | 7:43 a.m. June 11, 2008

My family and I recently moved from out of state. Although our new school scored well relative to other UT schools we've been disappointed in our child's experience. That said, I want to see the ROI before we increase spending per pupil.

I'm as anti-tax as I believe almost any other reasonable person cab be. However, I'd be okay in increasing taxes to fund the equivalent of $5K/yr add'l per teacher with the following caveats ï¿½ 1) principals can allocate that raise money to teachers however they like and 2) unions must allow principals to fire whomever they like.

The unions keep talking about the teacher shortage. If individual teachers don't like the deal they get from their principal they can play the market.

I Dave | 7:48 a.m. June 11, 2008

Reading newspapers in other states, they claim to pay their teachers the least. You can do anything you want with numbers.

Dutchman | 8:16 a.m. June 11, 2008

There is so much tax exempt property in Utah, religious and otherwise, that some fees make sense so that everyone pays something including big institutions that may not pay property taxes. To Overtaxed: We do have another way to fund public schools. It is called the State income tax which goes entirely to fund public education. Property taxes only fund a small portion of what is required to operate schools.

Brett | 9:07 a.m. June 11, 2008

Just remember who the Utah Taxpayers Association is. It's an association to protect big business. That's who pays membership fees and pays the staff to do this research any way they want.
There is nothing wrong with that, but readers should remember who is setting the perameters of the report and paying for it. The Utah Taxpayers Association is not me or you or Utah families.

Anonymous | 9:13 a.m. June 11, 2008

And as per usual:
"All is fine and dandy in Pleasantville."

Dick | 9:29 a.m. June 11, 2008

Maybe if people in Utah would`nt reproduce like rabbits the schools wouldn`t be over crowded. Maybe parents should have have to pay so much for each child they have enrolled in school. That way they would have to pay for their own children`s education.

WE are the problem! | 9:46 a.m. June 11, 2008

Every proposition to REDUCE taxes I can recall in my 49 years has been voted down. Almost every proposition to INCREASE taxes has passed.

And WE scratch our heads and wonder how this happens and point our finger at someone in government? You can blame the government for proposing the tax increases but you can only blame yourself for campaigning for them and passing them.

I tried to get my friends to vote FOR the Sales Tax reduction plan Merrill Cook proposed, but the scare-tactics kicked in and WE voted it down and told Cook to hit the road (because he continued to propose lowering taxes).

Most recently I tried to get my neighbors to not take the bait and vote to increase my sales taxes (because I live in SL County). All the politicians had to do was promise us transit projects and we gladly voted to raise our taxes.

(NOTE: Has ANYONE seen any new Transit Projects in SL County yet)? Hmmmm.... Yet WE keep voting to raise taxes (thinking we'll get something for it) and WE keep voting AGAINST lowering taxes (Afraid we will lose our pet-program or something).

If YOU vote this way YOU-are-the-reason-for-our-current-high-tax-rate-so-shut-up!

Nick | 10:06 a.m. June 11, 2008

Utah has a very high birth rate. That means more kids per taxpaying adult. That means higher taxes per taxpaying adult.

Utahns made this bed and now they get to sleep in it.

Anonymous | 10:15 a.m. June 11, 2008

And there goes another driver of a SUV parking in their 4 car garage of their mcmansion.

Yet we can't get education spending out of last place.

People that keep saying "throw money at it" are really clueless.

We can't even get teachers to take jobs in Utah.

You'd better start doing something with the money that attracts decent teachers. The job isn't getting any easier...

Chuck | 10:24 a.m. June 11, 2008

To "Overtaxed":
You suggest we eliminate property tax. That is the local tax. Eliminate it and we eliminate funding local governments locally. Unfortunately we are already part way there, since sales tax funds most of local cities now. Governments serve those who directly pay the bill. The more we fund local governments with state or federal taxes, i.e. sales and income tax, the less local control and fiscal responsibility we get from local governments.

Eliminating property tax would be the WORST possible thing we could do. We already have lost much of local governing. We need to protect the three LEVELS of government as much as the three BRANCHES of government.

Overtaxed | 10:33 a.m. June 11, 2008

To Dutchman:

Actually, the income tax is used to fund education, both public and higher ed, not just public ed. Of course, I already knew that, but you didn't.

My comment was regarding taking the pressure off of the property tax, which mostly goes to public ed (about 75% of my property tax goes to the schools). I'd rather use sales or income tax instead or property tax to fund our schools.

waiting | 11:25 a.m. June 11, 2008

I am waiting for some lunatic conservative to start screaming: "Taxation is socialism!"

Too Anonymous | 11:55 a.m. June 11, 2008

You don't even live in Utah. Why are you commenting on this subject?

And why do you keep using "WE" when you say "WE" need to increase per-pupil spending? Are you going to start paying Utah taxes? Do your kids attend Utah schools?

Why are you obsessed with all things Utah?

jackhp | 12:14 p.m. June 11, 2008

re: waiting,

I'm waiting for the conservative lunatic "taxation is slavery" meme to kick in. Oh, wait, nevermind.

Overtaxed | 12:27 p.m. June 11, 2008

Chuck:

Let's count those 3 levels of government: (1) federal, (2) state, (3) county, (4) city, (5) school district, (6) water district, (7) sewer district, (8) mosquito abatement district, (9) cemetery district, (10) unified fire authority, ...

3 levels sounds nice and balanced, but it's not reality.

Thomas | 12:30 p.m. June 11, 2008

"Waiting" -- As long as you insist on living in a world populated by figments of your imagination, you'll be waiting a long time.

Since when is per-pupil spending a good measure of a state's education system? In any other enterprise, you measure success not by units of input, but by units of output per unit of input. California spends more than twice as much per student as Utah does, but it for dang sure doesn't get twice as much value. That's because California's bloated educational bureaucracy slurps up tons of money, as does the expense of repairing inner-city schools whose students wreck them as fast as contractors (who are overpaid, thanks to the influence of organized labor over school bureaucracies) can put them back together.

Utah's students do about as well as you would expect from Utah's demographic makeup.

Lunatic Conservative | 12:33 p.m. June 11, 2008

Taxation is socialism!

exposing themselves | 12:36 p.m. June 11, 2008

The more time goes on, the more the neocons seem to be willing to expose themselves for the farm animals that they are.

Keep up the good work, neocons.

You make it easier and easier for America at large (not the Little America behind the Zion Curtain)
to shift even further to the left - strictly voting from their conscience.

Too "exposing themselves | 12:36 | 1:26 p.m. June 11, 2008

Good try Anonymous, but if your going to try commenting under another name, you should also try disguise your rhetoric a little.

Again... Why is a Californian commenting so passionatly on the topic of "Utah's Taxes"?

(from one farm animal to another).

BTW, You rant on neocons putting insults in their postings, yet YOU always seem to include one. What's up with that?

RE; Overtaxed | 1:54 p.m. June 11, 2008

I don't know what school district you live in but in the Granite District about 1/3 of my property tax goes to schools, the same for the Salt Lake City District where I also own property. So, I don't know where you get the 75% figure of property taxes going to schools. And yes, I did know that state income tax goes exclusively to fund public education. You make the distinction between higher ed and 1-12 grades. I don't see the difference. Public ed is public ed.

saddest part | 2:06 p.m. June 11, 2008

As time goes by and the reddest state in America becomes redder and redder, and wierder and wierder,
the more of a laughing stock it becomes.
And the saddest part is they have the vision of themselves as being quite hip and cool.

What's with the Utah obsession? | 2:22 p.m. June 11, 2008

What's with the Utah obsession Anonymous?

I see you're using different names now, but the rhetoric is the same.

At least stay on topic. The topic is "Utah's heavy tax burden". Not "Are Utahns weird" or "Are Utahns the Red'est" or "Utah's Per-pupil spending".

Their own words | 2:45 p.m. June 11, 2008

"We are a peculiar people."
- Gordon B. Hinckley

Overtaxed | 3:01 p.m. June 11, 2008

I get the 75% figure by looking at my property tax statement and dividing the cumulative school property tax amount by the total property tax bill. Pretty simple math. Of course, I have friends with tax bills where the schools' take makes up 80% of the total bill.

I know we're wierd but... | 3:51 p.m. June 11, 2008

I know we're wierd, but I don't get why Anonymous is so concerned about OUR wierdness.

Anonymous | 4:00 p.m. June 11, 2008

Did you ever once consider that some of these postings may be directed to fellow 'non-members' who struggle with that weirdness in their midst day after day and find comfort in the comraderie of their fellow posters they can relate to?

Or are you so far gone you really believe "its all about me."?

Chuck | 5:15 p.m. June 11, 2008

Overtaxed:
You said, "(3) county, (4) city, (5) school district, (6) water district, (7) sewer district, (8) mosquito abatement district, (9) cemetery district, (10) unified fire authority" are all levels of government. No, those are all local governments. We the people reserve the right to set up such local governments as will best serve us. Get rid of property tax and you get rid of those entities, or at least the control by the locals over them.

Changing those to be funded from the state or national level will still take money from your pocket (more than when it is locally controlled through the property tax). It also will make the administrators of such entities look to please state and national legislators and congressmen instead of the local citizens.

Sales and Income taxes fleece you in small increments, so you don't notice it. That makes it easier to increase them. Property tax comes all at once annually. This forces an accountability that the other taxes do not.

Property taxes keep taxes lower and keep the control with those served.

Anonymous' intent comforting? | 5:18 p.m. June 11, 2008

Your intent is to be comforting? Oh, I get it, just to some Utahns.

The others you call, "farm animals, red, neocons, stupid, lunatics, weird, etc"?

I wonder if ANYONE in Utah finds your postings comforting (member or non-member).

Anonymous | 5:45 p.m. June 11, 2008

Here's what I find comforting:
Liberals, socialists, communists, heathens, do-gooders, tree-huggers, America-haters, Bush-haters, and drive-by media.

richard s | 6:02 p.m. June 11, 2008

Utah is indeed fee crazy, it seems like they are constantly thinking of new ways to fee us to death. The Vehicle Safety Inspection Progam is a good example. In the last 10 years there have been many research studies done by Merril (The Effectiveness of Vehicle Safety Inspections), Poitras (Policy Ineffectiveness or Offsetting Behavior), Sutter, Hemenway, and others, showing mandatory vehicle safety inspection programs like Utahs don't decrease accident rates. Yet year after year Utahns have to put up with this miserable annual ritual, having to run the gauntlet of mechanics selling repairs, just so the state can collect their $2 share of the safety inspection fee. Utah is only one of 18 states that still has this program, it just can't give up those fees.

Red | 7:38 p.m. June 11, 2008

Rick 2:49: "Research shows money per pupil doesn't equal better education. "

So, if we spend zero dollars per pupil, educational quality won't drop. Yah --

Overtaxed 10:33: "I'd rather use sales or income tax instead or property tax to fund our schools.:

One hundred percent of Utah's personal income tax goes for education.

Too "Anonymous | 5:45 p.m." | 9:15 a.m. June 12, 2008

Gotcha. If that's what warms your heart and comforts you, you go for it. I guess there are some Utahns who need that type of message.

I couldn't help noticing many of the things that comfort you have the word "Hater" in them (Bush-haters, America-haters, etc). Is that a coincidence?

To me it's just more indication that you are just as costic as Limbaugh or Hannity, just the flip-side of the coin.

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