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All FLDS children returned to parents
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re - Emma in Illinois | 5:13 p.m. June 5, 2008
a disregard for their religion by showing up in clothing that the children saw
as not morally right? You're kidding, right? What were they supposed to
do - hit up the old set for Little House on the Prairie before they went
there?
It's about time the kids saw that not everyone wears longjohns and full-length dresses in the middle of summer. And that it's a big world out there and they DON'T have to spend their lives hiding from it.
Their parents may be teaching them good morals and to be polite, but they aren't teaching them to be ethical (they are taught to lie) and they aren't teaching them how to survive outside of their little world. Pretty much makes them prisoners in fancy clothes.
And you're worried about them seeing real people in regular clothes? wow...
It's about time the kids saw that not everyone wears longjohns and full-length dresses in the middle of summer. And that it's a big world out there and they DON'T have to spend their lives hiding from it.
Their parents may be teaching them good morals and to be polite, but they aren't teaching them to be ethical (they are taught to lie) and they aren't teaching them how to survive outside of their little world. Pretty much makes them prisoners in fancy clothes.
And you're worried about them seeing real people in regular clothes? wow...
re: realitycheck | 5:13 p.m. June 5, 2008
Can you please produce the Quija Board you used to determine the futures of the
children?
How on Earth can YOU claim to have a CLUE regarding their futures - 10 years from now, 20 years from now? What, exactly please, wil they eat for lunch next Tuesday? You can't tell me that, really, can you?
Was it your Quija Board that Judge Walthers used, or what?
How on Earth can YOU claim to have a CLUE regarding their futures - 10 years from now, 20 years from now? What, exactly please, wil they eat for lunch next Tuesday? You can't tell me that, really, can you?
Was it your Quija Board that Judge Walthers used, or what?
Comments continue below
See the Light | 5:29 p.m. June 5, 2008
When your leader is a child molestor bad things are going to happen. This is
what Warren Jeffs and the other "leaders" of your organization have
brought you. Follow a crazed sex pervert and this or worse will happen again.
Wake up, use a glimmer of the intelligence God gave you, and realize what and
who it is you have been following.
zxcvbnm | 5:31 p.m. June 5, 2008
Those mothers that didn't return were advised by their attorneys to avoid the ranch. They have to continue to jump thru CPS hoops.
The choices they make are still colored by the whims of the State looking over their shoulder and the constant knowledge that the state can open their door at will.......sure isn't a free choice now is it.
Not convicted of a crime but treated as a criminal.......
realitycheck re-5:13pm | 6:05 p.m. June 5, 2008
I don't need a Quija board, nor do you. They will be either pregnant with
many children, or they will be "married" to many women.
They won't be many things, simply because they don't have the tools and they have been isolated their entire lives. Most aspects of the world are off limits to them - not unlike women in Saudi Arabia. What about this do you not understand?
They won't be many things, simply because they don't have the tools and they have been isolated their entire lives. Most aspects of the world are off limits to them - not unlike women in Saudi Arabia. What about this do you not understand?
G | 6:33 p.m. June 5, 2008
"I don't need a Quija board, nor do you. They will be either pregnant
with many children, or they will be "married" to many women."
So is ANY large family unacceptable to your liberal ideology?
So is ANY large family unacceptable to your liberal ideology?
David | 6:48 p.m. June 5, 2008
Fact - not all FLDS practice Plural marriage with many being monogamous.
Fact - Some people do not denigrate women for having many children. Some people actually consider motherhood a noble profession, even if others, like you RC, consider it a dead end job. Michelle Duggar announced on the Today Show that she was expecting her 19th child. Her uterus is her business. The same applies to the FLDS women.
You pretend to believe that the FLDS are isolated, but ignore the fact that the attempted 2nd raid was a response to the knowledge that not all children were present at the first raid. Do not continue lying or seek mental health care from pathological lying RC. As you well know by now, women do have choices and professional careers even if you do not consider an RN, EMT, teachers, or other tasks as noble professions.
Fact - Some people do not denigrate women for having many children. Some people actually consider motherhood a noble profession, even if others, like you RC, consider it a dead end job. Michelle Duggar announced on the Today Show that she was expecting her 19th child. Her uterus is her business. The same applies to the FLDS women.
You pretend to believe that the FLDS are isolated, but ignore the fact that the attempted 2nd raid was a response to the knowledge that not all children were present at the first raid. Do not continue lying or seek mental health care from pathological lying RC. As you well know by now, women do have choices and professional careers even if you do not consider an RN, EMT, teachers, or other tasks as noble professions.
David | 6:54 p.m. June 5, 2008
Why were some children picked up by "caregivers?" Simple, even FLDS
children visit their grandmothers and grandfathers. Some children were
unfortunate in that they were on the YFZ ranch when the raid occurred. It is as
simple as that...nothing salacious or exciting, but a visit to grandma's
house. I remain confused as to why a few posters insist on perpetuating lies
with seeming purposeful intent.
wyogirl | 6:54 p.m. June 5, 2008
Hey realitycheck - so, your a liberal woman and I'm a feminist, former FLDS
member who lives in Wyoming!
Seriously, I wish I could express myself in my posts as well as you do - I look forward to reading your thoughts - please keep them coming.
Seriously, I wish I could express myself in my posts as well as you do - I look forward to reading your thoughts - please keep them coming.
wyogirl | 7:47 p.m. June 5, 2008
The first word in FLDS is fundamentalist � which to me,
would imply that they are traditionalists. But some aspects of their culture
� specifically their family relationships - have more in
common with a 60�s commune or Gay and Lesbian
�marriages.� This paradox continues
to perplex me.
Mothers, specifically stay-at-home mothers, perform a great service to their families and to society. Mothers work hard and that work, and their role, is often undervalued. But I believe deeply that the work that women do, and mothers do, deserves respect. They deserve fidelity from their spouse; they deserve the validity of a marriage license. They are not sub-human; they are not property. A woman who decides to have children puts herself in a vulnerable position � in doing so she earns the rights that legal marriage provide her. To say that women can be �assigned� and �reassigned� to men, to deny them education sufficient to support themselves, to withhold basic human rights to her and her children, to allow her to be given, at a young age, to a man to be raped, DEGRADES women, and makes a mockery of the traditional values of our society.
Mothers, specifically stay-at-home mothers, perform a great service to their families and to society. Mothers work hard and that work, and their role, is often undervalued. But I believe deeply that the work that women do, and mothers do, deserves respect. They deserve fidelity from their spouse; they deserve the validity of a marriage license. They are not sub-human; they are not property. A woman who decides to have children puts herself in a vulnerable position � in doing so she earns the rights that legal marriage provide her. To say that women can be �assigned� and �reassigned� to men, to deny them education sufficient to support themselves, to withhold basic human rights to her and her children, to allow her to be given, at a young age, to a man to be raped, DEGRADES women, and makes a mockery of the traditional values of our society.
Earl | 8:34 p.m. June 5, 2008
>>makes a mockery of the traditional values of our society.<<
In this country, we have hundreds of "traditional values" coming from hundreds of different immigrants that form our society.
Specifically who's traditional values are you speaking of??
Your values may not be my values nor do I expect them to be.
The traditions found in Italian Boston are different than those same values of the Italian community in Chicago. My ancestors from Germany have a variety of traditional values that don't fit all Germans. For instance, I wear my wedding ring on my right hand, a German tradition from my father and his father before him.
Tradition and values change all the time. Don't try to fit your traditions on someone else it won't work.
In this country, we have hundreds of "traditional values" coming from hundreds of different immigrants that form our society.
Specifically who's traditional values are you speaking of??
Your values may not be my values nor do I expect them to be.
The traditions found in Italian Boston are different than those same values of the Italian community in Chicago. My ancestors from Germany have a variety of traditional values that don't fit all Germans. For instance, I wear my wedding ring on my right hand, a German tradition from my father and his father before him.
Tradition and values change all the time. Don't try to fit your traditions on someone else it won't work.
VA Baptist | 8:49 p.m. June 5, 2008
Supreme Court decision, Groh, Jeff v. Ramirez, Joseph, et al.
(02/24/2004)clearly shows police throwing away their qualified immunity and
exposing themselves to lawsuits through gross negligence. I think this
Texas/FLDS issue qualifies.
I don't agree with polygamy or FLDS wacky beliefs, but the constitution protects us all from oppressive govt. Just because you don't like the way someone lives doesn't give you the right to destroy their lives. Thank you founding fathers!
I don't agree with polygamy or FLDS wacky beliefs, but the constitution protects us all from oppressive govt. Just because you don't like the way someone lives doesn't give you the right to destroy their lives. Thank you founding fathers!
wyogirl | 10:05 p.m. June 5, 2008
Where one wears ones wedding ring would be a "custom" - yes -
different people have different customs. I think thats wonderful. But, that is
completely different than societal values. And yes, those change too - but not
always for the better - in my opinion. Which is the point of view of many
other "traditionalists." Those that would say that the "old
way" was the "better way" which is similar to what
"fundamentalism" is. I'm just saying there is paradox here.
I'm not saying that everyone has to have the same customs or values - but societies set limits. We define what we think is acceptable and what isn't. Those values can change (civil right movement), and people don't always agree (death penalty). But even the founding fathers didn't have a "do whatever you want" policy.
America has traditionally placed a high value on marriage and family - those are the values I'm speaking of.
The values that say that a woman has a right to choose her own mate - not be "assigned" and "reassigned" like property. That we don't rape teen-age girls. That we value and provide education and allow people the right to self determination.
I'm not saying that everyone has to have the same customs or values - but societies set limits. We define what we think is acceptable and what isn't. Those values can change (civil right movement), and people don't always agree (death penalty). But even the founding fathers didn't have a "do whatever you want" policy.
America has traditionally placed a high value on marriage and family - those are the values I'm speaking of.
The values that say that a woman has a right to choose her own mate - not be "assigned" and "reassigned" like property. That we don't rape teen-age girls. That we value and provide education and allow people the right to self determination.
sleepy35z | 10:32 p.m. June 5, 2008
"re: CPS workers | 4:54 p.m. June 5, 2008
CPS workers have the power of the state, and therefore have more responsibility. No citizenry should accept such abuse of power, with underlings just claiming "I was just following orders."
The organization as a whole, because of their agency status, bears the total brunt of ALL of the wrongs done under its name."
What a lie!
Please stop with the outright lies already. The kids were picked up by their parents... end of story. All the rumors of over a 100 "extra" parentless kids were false. I am so tired of reading CPS propaganda.
CPS workers have the power of the state, and therefore have more responsibility. No citizenry should accept such abuse of power, with underlings just claiming "I was just following orders."
The organization as a whole, because of their agency status, bears the total brunt of ALL of the wrongs done under its name."
What a lie!
Please stop with the outright lies already. The kids were picked up by their parents... end of story. All the rumors of over a 100 "extra" parentless kids were false. I am so tired of reading CPS propaganda.
CalifReader | 10:32 p.m. June 5, 2008
At what point are all of you expressing your outrage/disgust/opinions, going to
do something other than harp at each other about it. Who of you has called or
written a letter to make YOUR point to the legislature, government officials or
church officials(FLDS, Mormon or Baptist, etc.)?? Whatever your point. No
child should be stolen from their parent by the government or other kidnapper.
What is Texas doing about all those other child abuse cases in the good and bad
neighborhoods . . Yeah - don't much see those in the news. No money left to
deal with them as the Texas sun gets hotter this summer and tempers heat up.
Make your opinion count folks! Yell at the people who deserve it or can make a
difference. Lay off these poor kids who now are further damaged and will not
feel safe for a LONG time to come, not even in their church or parents arms.
Nice going Texas.
Bartleby | 12:26 a.m. June 6, 2008
Reality Check: Of course, most kids WOULDN'T want to go to the FLDS,
having been raised in the "real world," simply for the same reason
that a person raised on drugs wouldn't chose a pure life style. Once
you've been corrupted, you don't generally chose to go somewhere where
people aren't corrupted.
P.S. Where you cheering on the social workers and the prosecution when the McMartin case was going on? They were found not guilty too (but only after the most expensive criminal trial in USA history, all started by the allegations of a (literally) schizophrenic woman. You people need to stop seeing abuse where it doesn't exist, and look into your own black hearts.
P.S. Where you cheering on the social workers and the prosecution when the McMartin case was going on? They were found not guilty too (but only after the most expensive criminal trial in USA history, all started by the allegations of a (literally) schizophrenic woman. You people need to stop seeing abuse where it doesn't exist, and look into your own black hearts.
awesome! | 2:14 a.m. June 6, 2008
I'm so glad these pedophiles will stay in Texas instead of fouling up
southern Utah! These 'people' are beyond belief and hope, just leave
them alone to breed themselves into extinction.
Grandpa Phil | 7:15 a.m. June 6, 2008
Dear "nantz", From what I have heard from all of the Neo-Christian
gainsayers in these posts, I would lean toward the FLDS LONG before I would
support your misguided stance. I have talked to the FLDS during this fiasco and
even donated to their legal fund to help them get their children back. Many of
us knew from the start that the lower court and CPS overstepped their authority
in removing the children from their parents in violation of their rights, but
there will always be some such as yourself that will cling to every tidbit of
taudry innuendo and false allegations to justify what was done to these people.
The old adage, "Don't confuse me with the facts; my mind's made
up" applies to many of you. Thankfully, the children are back with their
mothers and the healing of the wounds inflicted by CPS and the State of Texas
can begin. Understandable, it will be a LONG time before any of those people
will EVER trust a Texas official again. I know I won't but then, I live in
NC. We will be watching and, if this gets out of hand again, we will be ready.
Grandpa Phil | 7:27 a.m. June 6, 2008
Califreader, I wrote a letter to President Bush voicing my disbelief that such
atrocities could occur under American law. I doubt that he read it and I surely
don't expect a reply but I felt the need to express my outrage that
"civilized" people could commit such blatant violations of individual
and group rights in this country. The higher courts intervened and the children
were returned, thankfully, but the damage to them was already done. This
emphasises the reason why we have Appellate Courts in this country; because
lower courts and judges sometimes use their own prejudices and agendas to
exercise unrighteous dominion over others. THose CPS folks posting in here need
to find something job related that you SHOULD be doing at this particular
moment.
Emma | 7:43 a.m. June 6, 2008
A true feminist allows the woman complete control of her reproduction, so not
only would a feminist support a woman's choice to not have any children she
should equally support her right to have a large family.
FLDS marriages may indeed be arranged, but that does not mean it is done so without request by the female for such an arrangement. Arranged does not mean forced. Males are also "victims" since they too have arranged marriages.
Do you know that FLDS have dances? I know, shocking how much garbage you were fed.
FLDS marriages may indeed be arranged, but that does not mean it is done so without request by the female for such an arrangement. Arranged does not mean forced. Males are also "victims" since they too have arranged marriages.
Do you know that FLDS have dances? I know, shocking how much garbage you were fed.
realitycheck | 10:41 a.m. June 6, 2008
Some responses to my posts are rediculous. I have nothing but respect for
motherhood. (btw, wyogirl - I'm male, not female.) I just think people
should be able to follow their own path as they grow up, and these people
can't.
Bartleby compares living outside FLDS to drug abuse and says "once corrupted, you choose corruption." Well, are FLDS parents sooo bad that they can't raise decent children without isolating them from everything? That's pathetic. Learn to raise good children instead of hiding them. If you can't do that, then you aren't very good at parenting, which begs the question of why you have so many children if you are incapable of raising them...
G says I am against large families. Where do you get that? My immediate family is over 50 people. Large familes are great! Women being stay-home moms are great - mine was a stay-home mom. But she didn't hide us from the world, and she raised fine children.
If you can't handle parenting, don't have so many children. Hiding them from the world isn't parenting - it's the cowards way out. You're simply afraid they may choose a different path and you will lose "followers".
Bartleby compares living outside FLDS to drug abuse and says "once corrupted, you choose corruption." Well, are FLDS parents sooo bad that they can't raise decent children without isolating them from everything? That's pathetic. Learn to raise good children instead of hiding them. If you can't do that, then you aren't very good at parenting, which begs the question of why you have so many children if you are incapable of raising them...
G says I am against large families. Where do you get that? My immediate family is over 50 people. Large familes are great! Women being stay-home moms are great - mine was a stay-home mom. But she didn't hide us from the world, and she raised fine children.
If you can't handle parenting, don't have so many children. Hiding them from the world isn't parenting - it's the cowards way out. You're simply afraid they may choose a different path and you will lose "followers".
Grandpa Phil | 11:32 a.m. June 6, 2008
Realitycheck, it is time for a reality check. Your claim that your mother
raised fine children is in serious doubt. Protecting children from the evils of
the world is not "hiding" them. We all do things to protect our
children from harm. Smart people learn from their mistakes; however, truly
intelligent people learn from the mistakes of others. I am raising my children
to be truly intelligent and guide and counsel them using the experiences I have
had over my VERY many years. I wouldn't consider the FLDS
"cowards" for trying to protect their children from the evils of a
decadent society; I would call it wise. Children only have to be exposed and
wise to the sins of the world if they are to be expected to grow up in that
world. The FLDS keep themselves in the world but not of it. If their children
grow up associating strictly with others who believe and live as they do, they
will be better off for it. The Amish do exactly the same thing and no one
admonishes them for their seclusion or teaching their children to abstain from
the worldly things that damage so many children these days.
wyogirl | 12:07 p.m. June 6, 2008
realitycheck - I know your not a woman...I was joking around. You are not a
woman and I'm not a former FLDS feminist named Flora or Carolyn or Rosie.
realitycheck | 12:53 p.m. June 6, 2008
Grandpa Phil -
"FLDS parents protect their children from the evils of a decadent society".
That's living in paranoia. That's living scared. That's not living at all. They are not "protecting" their children - they are raising them (and I use the word loosely) to be afraid of the world.
Yes - they will grow up just like their parents. You think that's great - I think it's a crime. It means they will not be their own person, finding their own way. They will be clones.
You may want that for your kids, but I'd rather mine have free will and a mind of their own. What a concept.
Imagine the world being just FLDS. How boring. Yet thats what you are promoting for these kids. Now I understand why they do it - because if they didn't, they wouldn't have any followers. But why you would do it, or approve of it for your kids, is beyond me.
Besides, I am talking about the YFZ ranch, not so much Utah or Arizona. At least there they can walk down the street and leave. No one was getting out of YFZ. Thats just wrong. No free will. Prison.
"FLDS parents protect their children from the evils of a decadent society".
That's living in paranoia. That's living scared. That's not living at all. They are not "protecting" their children - they are raising them (and I use the word loosely) to be afraid of the world.
Yes - they will grow up just like their parents. You think that's great - I think it's a crime. It means they will not be their own person, finding their own way. They will be clones.
You may want that for your kids, but I'd rather mine have free will and a mind of their own. What a concept.
Imagine the world being just FLDS. How boring. Yet thats what you are promoting for these kids. Now I understand why they do it - because if they didn't, they wouldn't have any followers. But why you would do it, or approve of it for your kids, is beyond me.
Besides, I am talking about the YFZ ranch, not so much Utah or Arizona. At least there they can walk down the street and leave. No one was getting out of YFZ. Thats just wrong. No free will. Prison.
J-man | 12:52 p.m. June 6, 2008
Grandpa Phil, do the Amish also force their 12, 13, & 14 y/o girls to marry
50+ y/o men too?
If not, that's probably why we aren't admonishing the Amish.
If not, that's probably why we aren't admonishing the Amish.
Anonymous | 3:49 p.m. June 6, 2008
So sad to see these kids returned. In their return they will continued to be
brain washed in this cult. The only way these kids could have lived a normal
life and the cult broken is for the families to be split up. I am horrified at
the thought of what kind of lives these kids will live.
G | 5:25 p.m. June 6, 2008
"G says I am against large families. Where do you get that?"
I got that from your post at 6:05 PM on 5 June.
The specific quote was:
"They will be either pregnant with many children, or they will be "married" to many women."
The context was regarding where the FLDS kids will be in 10, 20, or 30 years from now. It would appear from your remark that there is something wrong with adults in a state of being "pregnant...with many children".
That is why I thought that.
One thing we agree on is that the world is a BIG place. People have a lot of different ways of living their lives. I think it's best that people that disagree with one group or another don't try to draft laws about what their children can be taught.
Or else in another hundred years society will be like some dystopian SF novel where children are all raised by the state.
I got that from your post at 6:05 PM on 5 June.
The specific quote was:
"They will be either pregnant with many children, or they will be "married" to many women."
The context was regarding where the FLDS kids will be in 10, 20, or 30 years from now. It would appear from your remark that there is something wrong with adults in a state of being "pregnant...with many children".
That is why I thought that.
One thing we agree on is that the world is a BIG place. People have a lot of different ways of living their lives. I think it's best that people that disagree with one group or another don't try to draft laws about what their children can be taught.
Or else in another hundred years society will be like some dystopian SF novel where children are all raised by the state.
Grandpa Phil | 6:57 a.m. June 9, 2008
J-Man, for the 50 MILIIONTH TIME, please point to a specific case where a 12,
13, or 14 yr old girl has been forced to marry a 50+ yr old man. That same old
unsubstantiated baloney is getting VERY OLD. Find something new to make up.
CPS already looked at that angle and it petered out to ONE girl between 16 and
18. That is HARDLY an excuse for tar and feathering an entire community. It is
HARDLY an excuse for this maniacal hatred manifested by such bigoted and
ill-informed postings such as yours. Do your homework, get the FACTS straight
and make an INFORMED decision and then express it intelligently.
Grandpa Phil | 7:08 a.m. June 9, 2008
Uhm, realitycheck, you have a reading comprehension problem. AT no time did I
say that I was rasing my children as the FLDS do. I said I was raising my
children to learn from the mistakes that I made and to gain from my experience.
I daresay almost ALL parents try to teach their children the lessons they
learned when they were growing up. SOmetimes kids listen; sometimes they
don't. SOme kids are smart and some are truly intelligent. You are
raising smart children, no problem; I am raising truly intelligent ones. If the
FLDS have been in the world and have decided that they do not want their
children exposed to some of the things you find exceptable, that is their choice
and I would not fault them for it. My last three children were homeschooled
because we saw what public school did to their older siblings and the problems
they encountered. You might have a problem with kids being homeschooled because
you believe we are "hiding" our kids from reality. That is foolish.
If I see a danger, I protect my children from it. Anything short of that is
intentional abuse. The State will NOT abuse my children.
Grandpa Phil | 8:52 a.m. June 9, 2008
Anonymous, the kids ARE living a normal life within the community they live.
What is "normal" to you and others might be objectional to thses
families and visa versa. So WHAT!!!! The children are with their families
where they belong. We are getting a little tires of all of you CPS people
lamenting over your failure to break up and destroy this "cult". Keep
the State out of religion. None of you have the right to decide which religions
should succeed or fail. When the State starts exercising their authority to
determine which religions should exist and which ones should not, NO religion is
safe.
realitycheck | 10:34 a.m. June 9, 2008
I have a huge problem with parents locking their kids into a compound and
filling their heads with so much fear that they are afraid to have a life
outside of that compound. That is what the FLDS do and that is child abuse.
You might not think so, but I stand by my statement.
Grandpa Phil | 1:57 p.m. June 9, 2008
realitycheck, you continue to spew innuendo as "self-evident facts".
These kids are not locked inside a compound. They actually get out once in a
while and travel. As for filling their heads with fear of the outside, no one
could have done that any better than CPS and the Sheriffs Office did. We all
tell our children to be wary of strangers and that the world is a dangerous
place; CPS and the Sheriff drilled that idea into every child on the ranch
better than the parents EVER could have. To paraphrase your quote, "That
is what CPS did and that is child abuse". In your particular case, you
live by the old adage, "Don't confuse me with the facts; my
mind's made up". Time for you to take a seat.
The name "religion" does not | 4:16 p.m. June 9, 2008
apply when people's free will is taken away! I'm sure there are
exceptions, but there has been plenty of evidence that this happens in the FLDS
church. If you don't do this personally then you don't have to worry.
Just like people that don't abuse their children in the general public
don't have to worry. Once in a while we will hear of an exception there
too, however, not on the scale that it is in your communities, compounds or
wherever you may live. Face it! There is a reason that one of the leaders of
the FLDS made a statement about "no more underage marriages"; there is
a reason why your previous "prophet" is in prison; and there is a
reason why there are many other allegations. The system is not perfect, but at
least it's there trying to help those that can't help themselves.
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The wheels of justice sometimes grind very slowly indeed.
An estranged husband, who shot his wife to death in a church parking lot in Utah, in broad daylight in front of many witnesses, just this week (six months later!) had his first court appearance.
Be patient, people. Charges will come.
Whether there will be convictions, I'm less sure. The bungling (and what looks like blatant lying and other forms of bad faith) may keep everyone out of the pokey.