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Most caregivers enjoyed the FLDS children
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gal50 | 12:52 a.m. June 4, 2008
Some of the issues these homes normally deal with such as lack of trust among
abused kids were present in the FLDS children. In order to establish trust, it
may have taken a full year instead of two months. It's abusive to teach
children not to trust anyone outside of their small group because the children
are denied the opportunity to be able to be involved with others, including
those who are wonderful people. They are psychologically abused in that they are
presented with a negative view of the world that just isn't real. It seems
like many of the workers cared very much about these children, but given what
the children were taught it would be hard for some of the children to feel cared
for. It is sad that the younger children missed opportunities for field trips
due to the fear of the older children. After reading many posts, I think there
are many people who underestimate the intangible psychological abuse that these
children have suffered and if therapy is not court ordered, will continue to
suffer.
Anna | 1:20 a.m. June 4, 2008
These pathetic children should have never had to expierience this situation. It
is no wonder that they would be distrustful of the outside world, after what
they had been put through. It sounds like the home workers tried their best to
care for these children. Thank goodness for those who were kind to these
children after having their mothers torn away from them at gunpoint, the mental
health worker's evaluation that the children were treated harshly by many
CPS workers. I would be very leery of anyone, too. Many of these children could
have been placed together, but, insted were cruelly torn away from siblings. Of
course, it makes sense that these children would look up to any older child of
their group for comfort, it was all they had, their parents were gone. So, sad.
I admire the courage of the older children to watch over the little ones, if
related or not.
VA gal | 5:35 a.m. June 4, 2008
I am certain these children have been psychologically abused. By the judge.
She ordered infants as young as 1 yr old into foster care. Tiny children were
torn from their mothers arms....Why? Because a few case workers thought they
saw some pregnant teenagers. If any psychological abuse happened it was done to
them by Judge Walthers and her heartless order.
Sheltering children from outside influences you deem poisonous is not abuse. It is good parenting. If you think that video games are not good for children, then don't allow them in your house. If you think soda is not good for children, don't let it in your house. That is parenting, not abuse.
On the other hand I am glad for kind workers that helped these children through a very difficult time. I am thankful for them and I am sure the parents are as well.
Sheltering children from outside influences you deem poisonous is not abuse. It is good parenting. If you think that video games are not good for children, then don't allow them in your house. If you think soda is not good for children, don't let it in your house. That is parenting, not abuse.
On the other hand I am glad for kind workers that helped these children through a very difficult time. I am thankful for them and I am sure the parents are as well.
Comments continue below
Not without a court order! | 5:47 a.m. June 4, 2008
"Rolfe told the Deseret News the DNA samples could not be used without a
court order."
Which, in Texas, are printed in gum wrappers.
Which, in Texas, are printed in gum wrappers.
No Kidding! | 6:04 a.m. June 4, 2008
Seems these Children are not so bad after all
Law Enforcement needs to learn it is their job to protect the public first
Like to serve and protect
The State is using the Cops against the People
So close to another Waco.
Law Enforcement needs to learn it is their job to protect the public first
Like to serve and protect
The State is using the Cops against the People
So close to another Waco.
just thining II | 6:48 a.m. June 4, 2008
I have stoped commenting on these pages, but I just have to comment on this
letter of gal50. what these kids learned is that the outside world truely is
unkind. they are jerked from their families, lied to by cps, taken to all parts
of the state of texas and siblings separated. you expect them to welcome this
with open arms. these are not normal kids. they were given sewing machines to
make clothes. what teenage girls in the usa can do this now. did they have
patterns to follow? you people outside do not understand their ways. THAT DOES
NOT MAKE THEM WRONG OR ABUSED. I am not flds, but I have been in their homes and
I know that they are people who have been looked down upon for years. it is only
natural that they would be on the defensive. we have taught them a great lesson
that they will remeber for 50 years to come. just as their parents remember the
raid in 1950�s.
VA gal | 6:59 a.m. June 4, 2008
Apparently my first post was not kind enough so I will try again.
Children removed from their parents have most certainly experience psychological trauma, the younger the child the worse the trauma. So I would expect the little ones not to trust anyone for a long time. Their world has been shaken, and they don't know where to turn. The older children were simply trying to fill in the void for the younger ones and help them avoid things that might bequestionable in their faith. Maybe they went overboard, but they were children too and their intent was good.
Teaching children that many of the outside influences of the world are not good, is not abuse, it is parenting. Many parents don't like video games, or soda, or various brands and types of toys. The children are taught to shun those things. This group (in many cases quite rightly) believes that the people outside their group are corrupt and immoral. This raid did not help that perception for anyone.
Children removed from their parents have most certainly experience psychological trauma, the younger the child the worse the trauma. So I would expect the little ones not to trust anyone for a long time. Their world has been shaken, and they don't know where to turn. The older children were simply trying to fill in the void for the younger ones and help them avoid things that might bequestionable in their faith. Maybe they went overboard, but they were children too and their intent was good.
Teaching children that many of the outside influences of the world are not good, is not abuse, it is parenting. Many parents don't like video games, or soda, or various brands and types of toys. The children are taught to shun those things. This group (in many cases quite rightly) believes that the people outside their group are corrupt and immoral. This raid did not help that perception for anyone.
RE: gal50 | 7:00 a.m. June 4, 2008
t's abusive to teach children not to trust anyone outside of their small
group.
Really??
Then why are most children taught from a very early are "Don't talk to strangers!" "Stay away from those you don't know"
This is common stuff and it's done everywhere.
Give the kids a television?? There are MANY shrinks that would disagree and would rather give the children books and real interaction.
A real childhood is not parked in front of a tv and given money so they can go on "outings at the mall" or be filled with false expectations of what happens when they "grow up" (video games) Children that are taught to be responsible for their actions are few and far between in our "modern times"
I would question what group of kids is really suffering from abuse? What book would you rather use to raise children? The Bible? or the world famous Dr Spock on children, (a now known communist)??
Really??
Then why are most children taught from a very early are "Don't talk to strangers!" "Stay away from those you don't know"
This is common stuff and it's done everywhere.
Give the kids a television?? There are MANY shrinks that would disagree and would rather give the children books and real interaction.
A real childhood is not parked in front of a tv and given money so they can go on "outings at the mall" or be filled with false expectations of what happens when they "grow up" (video games) Children that are taught to be responsible for their actions are few and far between in our "modern times"
I would question what group of kids is really suffering from abuse? What book would you rather use to raise children? The Bible? or the world famous Dr Spock on children, (a now known communist)??
wrz | 7:08 a.m. June 4, 2008
>>It's abusive to teach children not to trust anyone outside of their
small group because the children are denied the opportunity to be able to be
involved with others... >...including those who are wonderful people.
>...I think there are many people who underestimate the intangible
psychological abuse that these children have suffered and if therapy is not
court ordered, will continue to suffer.<<
The psychological abuse was inflicted by CPS who ripped these kids from their homes and families without reason or explanation. The good news is that, when they get back to their homes they can hopefully begin to forget about this rotten experience.
The psychological abuse was inflicted by CPS who ripped these kids from their homes and families without reason or explanation. The good news is that, when they get back to their homes they can hopefully begin to forget about this rotten experience.
Bot | 7:12 a.m. June 4, 2008
Talk about trust. How do you expect the children to trust "outsiders"
when they are forcibly separated from their parents, and lied to? The parents
and children were told the mothers were going to a "meeting", and then
were forcibly returned to the YFZ Ranch
disagree gal50 | 7:59 a.m. June 4, 2008
As a counselor and parent I have to strongly disagree with you. Teaching
children not to trust people outside the family is what helps the children be
safe. Raising children to trust everybody, or even almost everybody, leaves them
open for being abused, which abuse is by far more severe than what they have
been taught at home. I have not found that the FLDS children do not trust their
mothers, which is most important. Parents give a safe haven for children to
explore the world. Not wanting to participate in field trips with people they
don't know shows they did not have the security they would have had with
their moms around. The abuse they suffered being separate from their mothers
will far outweigh the teaching of not to just trust anybody. Taking them with
military force was traumatic and the children will have to deal with abandonment
issues. Why should they trust people so heartless as CPS and all it
accomplices? You might want to do your own research instead of taking AP news at
face value - trusting everybody...
p-t-max | 9:05 a.m. June 4, 2008
These children saw hundreds of armed strangers come into their homes and herd
them on to buses and take them away from their families. Of course they
weren't trusting. Yours would be suspicious of strangers, too, if it
happened to them, and with good reason.
Maybe some of them were abused at home. All of them were abused when the state of Texas tore them from their families based on insufficient evidence. None were in immediate danger, and law enforcement knew it, because they waited four or five days after the initial hoax call while they gathered resources to carry out the raid.
Prosecute and punish the guilty. Let the innocent go free. Texas did it backwards by punishing the innocent first, while trying the alleged perpetrators in the media. They nearly got away with it.
Maybe some of them were abused at home. All of them were abused when the state of Texas tore them from their families based on insufficient evidence. None were in immediate danger, and law enforcement knew it, because they waited four or five days after the initial hoax call while they gathered resources to carry out the raid.
Prosecute and punish the guilty. Let the innocent go free. Texas did it backwards by punishing the innocent first, while trying the alleged perpetrators in the media. They nearly got away with it.
ME | 9:17 a.m. June 4, 2008
Soooo many good comments on this article today. AMEN>
Matthew | 9:25 a.m. June 4, 2008
Gee, teenage and pre-teenage girls that know how to cook and sew and care for
younger children. They must have suffered terrible abuse, NOT. The abused ones
are all those other children in the US whose parents let them watch 4+ hours of
TV per day and then hour after hour of video games. Those kids don't know
how to do anything else. The reason "no child left behind" is doomed
is that so many children are being raised like that and they never learn
anything or even how to learn.
I may not approve of the FLDS ignoring laws against polygamy, but at least they aren't such a bunch of hypocrits like the people who think the FLDS parenting is abuse and the "typical" US parent is good.
Catch a clue people. TV and other modern technology isn't evil but modern technologies are easy to abuse. Teach your children. Nuture your children. Failing to do those things is the real abuse.
I may not approve of the FLDS ignoring laws against polygamy, but at least they aren't such a bunch of hypocrits like the people who think the FLDS parenting is abuse and the "typical" US parent is good.
Catch a clue people. TV and other modern technology isn't evil but modern technologies are easy to abuse. Teach your children. Nuture your children. Failing to do those things is the real abuse.
amber | 9:36 a.m. June 4, 2008
I am so sick of reading the comments on the web defending the right of the FLDS
to raise their children any way they want to. It is one thing to shield your
children from video games and sleaze. Its another thing to deny them knowledge
of the world so that they will be handicapped in pursuit of any career and
unaware of what options exist. The children's lives are preempted by the
limitations imposed by their parents. They can never recapture the opportunities
and vision lost to them by being shielded and molded. What about the lawyers,
doctors, social scientists and engineers that might have been. Do their parents
have the right to rise them so that they never even know those choices are there
for them? If you are programmed to think you are on earth to make babies to
increase your chance to get to heaven you don't throw off those ideas in
time to have another dream before you are well and truly shackled.
Anonymous | 9:37 a.m. June 4, 2008
"Most caregivers enjoyed the FLDS children"
That is a really unfortunately written headline.
That is a really unfortunately written headline.
Ing | 9:57 a.m. June 4, 2008
How is that headline unfortunate?
Bruce | 10:01 a.m. June 4, 2008
"What about the lawyers, doctors, social scientists and engineers that
might have been."
Let see: Raise children to serve God or raise children to serve some corporation or secular society?
That's a tuffy.
Let see: Raise children to serve God or raise children to serve some corporation or secular society?
That's a tuffy.
realitycheck | 10:09 a.m. June 4, 2008
I agree wholeheartedly with gal50. It's exactly whay I've been saying
all along, too.
just thinking II - it's good they can make dresses. Now, are they prepared to work for a famous designer? Or will they sit on a ranch THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, making babies and watering flowers, simply because they have no experience with the outside world. Big world out there - lots of opportunity - which they will miss out on simply because their parents kept them confined.
disagree gal50 - it's not a matter of teaching children to not trust people outside the family. It's a matter of the parents NEVER letting the children interface with anyone outside the family. That would be like raising a child and never letting them outside of the house. That's abuse.
amber - YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Thank you for stating what these other posters (except gal50) seem to be missing out of all this.
Parents can teach their children anything they want, and can confine their movement however they want. It's not illegal, but it is immoral, and it robs the children of any kind of future options or choices. Should be a civil rights violation.
just thinking II - it's good they can make dresses. Now, are they prepared to work for a famous designer? Or will they sit on a ranch THEIR ENTIRE LIVES, making babies and watering flowers, simply because they have no experience with the outside world. Big world out there - lots of opportunity - which they will miss out on simply because their parents kept them confined.
disagree gal50 - it's not a matter of teaching children to not trust people outside the family. It's a matter of the parents NEVER letting the children interface with anyone outside the family. That would be like raising a child and never letting them outside of the house. That's abuse.
amber - YOU ARE SO RIGHT! Thank you for stating what these other posters (except gal50) seem to be missing out of all this.
Parents can teach their children anything they want, and can confine their movement however they want. It's not illegal, but it is immoral, and it robs the children of any kind of future options or choices. Should be a civil rights violation.
Eric Re: Amber | 10:17 a.m. June 4, 2008
>>It is one thing to shield your children from video games and sleaze. Its
another thing to deny them knowledge of the world so that they will be
handicapped in pursuit of any career and unaware of what options
exist.<<
Why is it that so many think that these children are stupid or dumb?? They are not. To have a home school curriculum , you must provide the equivalent of a 10th grade education . This includes history,social studies,music, industrial arts, home economics, art, and mathematics. Do you think their school does not teach?? These children display at least an average education. All the people seem to have access to internet and cell phones, this requires some acceptance of technology ,even more than the average Amish community. Just because you choose not to cavort with your neighbor at the local gin mill, does not mean you are stupid.
Have another dream before you are well and truly shackled?? Just what do you mean by that?
Why is it that so many think that these children are stupid or dumb?? They are not. To have a home school curriculum , you must provide the equivalent of a 10th grade education . This includes history,social studies,music, industrial arts, home economics, art, and mathematics. Do you think their school does not teach?? These children display at least an average education. All the people seem to have access to internet and cell phones, this requires some acceptance of technology ,even more than the average Amish community. Just because you choose not to cavort with your neighbor at the local gin mill, does not mean you are stupid.
Have another dream before you are well and truly shackled?? Just what do you mean by that?
wrz | 10:29 a.m. June 4, 2008
>>I am so sick of reading the comments on the web defending the right of
the FLDS to raise their children any way they want to. >Its another thing to
deny them knowledge of the world so that they will be handicapped in pursuit of
any career and unaware of what options exist. >If you are programmed to think
you are on earth to make babies to increase your chance to get to heaven you
don't throw off those ideas in time to have another dream before you are
well and truly shackled.<<
Are you saying that motherhood is shackling? It's some of the greatest experiences a woman will ever have. Try living without being able to have kids and you'll soon change your attitude.
Are you saying that motherhood is shackling? It's some of the greatest experiences a woman will ever have. Try living without being able to have kids and you'll soon change your attitude.
BeeDee | 10:44 a.m. June 4, 2008
You know, you don't see Pennsylvania going after the Amish, or Montana
going after the Hutterites -- and they have lifestyles (outside of the polygamy)
that are identical to that practiced by the FLDS, in keeping their children (and
lives) seperate from the rest of the world. It's sophomoric to look at
these lifestyles, kept seperate from the rest of the world, and say that
they're wrong. I'd like proof that the life we lead is right.
FLDS children/Reverend Wright | 10:55 a.m. June 4, 2008
Are these not the same thing?
David | 11:01 a.m. June 4, 2008
I have conversed with FLDS on the computer and my neice has done so in St
George. Why do you want to believe that the FLDS isolate themselves? Does that
fit your paradigm better?
As for education, the local public school flunked 25% of the 8th grade class since they were unable to pass their 8th grade proficiency. The FLDS children, on inverse, were above their age level even per Carolyn Jessop.
For those preaching that it is immoral not to allow your children to mingle, ask yourself when was the last time you really every exposed your own children to anything that wasn't white America. It seems you would prefer the government raise your children. If that's the case, hand them over and CPS would be happy to do so. As for me, I will raise my children with my values, meeting those people that I want them to meet, with a belief system that I hold dear. This is my right as a parent and if you don't like it, tough.
As for education, the local public school flunked 25% of the 8th grade class since they were unable to pass their 8th grade proficiency. The FLDS children, on inverse, were above their age level even per Carolyn Jessop.
For those preaching that it is immoral not to allow your children to mingle, ask yourself when was the last time you really every exposed your own children to anything that wasn't white America. It seems you would prefer the government raise your children. If that's the case, hand them over and CPS would be happy to do so. As for me, I will raise my children with my values, meeting those people that I want them to meet, with a belief system that I hold dear. This is my right as a parent and if you don't like it, tough.
realitycheck re-wrz | 11:03 a.m. June 4, 2008
ah, wrz - you're at it again. You state "Are you saying motherhood is
shackling?"
LOL - we know you understand what we mean, and it has nothing to do with motherhood. Why do you keep going there?
It has to do with having to opportunity and tools to make informed decisions as you grow up so you can have a future of your own choosing instead to being locked into the future your parents chose. In order for an FLDS woman to have a future of her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE. She cannot just leave, and she doesn't have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make informed decisions. The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse.
It has to do with freedom of choice, and the FLDS does everything in their power to remove choice and opportunity from the childrens lives. I still think that should be a civil rights violation - just not sure how to make it work without violating the parents rights. So it's not illegal, but it's certainly immoral.
LOL - we know you understand what we mean, and it has nothing to do with motherhood. Why do you keep going there?
It has to do with having to opportunity and tools to make informed decisions as you grow up so you can have a future of your own choosing instead to being locked into the future your parents chose. In order for an FLDS woman to have a future of her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE. She cannot just leave, and she doesn't have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make informed decisions. The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse.
It has to do with freedom of choice, and the FLDS does everything in their power to remove choice and opportunity from the childrens lives. I still think that should be a civil rights violation - just not sure how to make it work without violating the parents rights. So it's not illegal, but it's certainly immoral.
re: BeeDee | 11:04 a.m. June 4, 2008
The difference between the Amish/Hutterites and the FLDS is that the Amish and
Hutterites haven't tried to justify child molestation through religion. If
the FLDS decided to only allow ADULTS to wed, perhaps they would have a similar
experience to the Amish.
Rais Your own your own Way. | 11:04 a.m. June 4, 2008
In they end, If you believe in a God, Even that Great creator of us all, who
holds each and every parent accountable for the raising of their own children.
The question is..? Will that God say these children who have impressed the many
CPS, and care-givers, interviewers, with their unconditional love, respect,
kindness, humility, talents, have been denied the many impressive wonders of the
overwhelming abominations of the world and the great success there-in.
What do the children have to say | 11:18 a.m. June 4, 2008
I don't believe any one but the children on this. I hope they have many
press conferences and describe their experience of being kidnapped at gunpoint,
having their privacy invaded and wisked of to prisons far away from home never
knowing if they would ever return. LET THE CHILDREN SPEAK !!
I heard that the toddlers were so traumatized that they will no longer interact with their mothers. The same exact thing happened to Ted Kuzinsky aka Unabomber when he was a toddler and we all know how well that turned out..
I heard that the toddlers were so traumatized that they will no longer interact with their mothers. The same exact thing happened to Ted Kuzinsky aka Unabomber when he was a toddler and we all know how well that turned out..
Eric | 11:41 a.m. June 4, 2008
A future of your own choosing!! What a concept!!
In truth no one has that power. we all must abide by the covenants of life.
Thanks to 60 some years of Dr. Spock, the age of permissiveness is upon us and the crop that it bears has arrived.
As an example.
Many kids do not see any reason to attend school. The powers that be arrest the parents for the crime of not making your child attend school. If you DO attempt to force your child to go to school, The CPS will arrest you for child abuse and take the kid away. So what future have we choosen? The child has freedom of choice and has chosen wrong as many have But the parent is punished and has no choice. Is the future of your own choosing?? Catch 22 if I ever saw one.
In truth no one has that power. we all must abide by the covenants of life.
Thanks to 60 some years of Dr. Spock, the age of permissiveness is upon us and the crop that it bears has arrived.
As an example.
Many kids do not see any reason to attend school. The powers that be arrest the parents for the crime of not making your child attend school. If you DO attempt to force your child to go to school, The CPS will arrest you for child abuse and take the kid away. So what future have we choosen? The child has freedom of choice and has chosen wrong as many have But the parent is punished and has no choice. Is the future of your own choosing?? Catch 22 if I ever saw one.
Anonymous | 11:43 a.m. June 4, 2008
>>What about the lawyers, doctors, social scientists and engineers that
might have been<<
Maybe you all have conveniently forgotten about the FLDS woman in the article yesterday who is a registered nurse. Kind of hard to get a nursing degree without going to college isn't it?
I only wish I had the discipline to raise my children more like the FLDS do. I think my kids would be better off.
Seeing the rights that have been violated here makes me want to move to the middle of Montana somewhere. It's not up to the government or all of you prying "neighbors" to decide how someone raises their children. We all have the right to teach our children whatever we want. The minute that right is taken away we might as well paint our flag red and start calling eachother comrade.
Maybe you all have conveniently forgotten about the FLDS woman in the article yesterday who is a registered nurse. Kind of hard to get a nursing degree without going to college isn't it?
I only wish I had the discipline to raise my children more like the FLDS do. I think my kids would be better off.
Seeing the rights that have been violated here makes me want to move to the middle of Montana somewhere. It's not up to the government or all of you prying "neighbors" to decide how someone raises their children. We all have the right to teach our children whatever we want. The minute that right is taken away we might as well paint our flag red and start calling eachother comrade.
G | 11:47 a.m. June 4, 2008
I'm still amazed to hear liberals talk about how kids should be exposed to
every possible way of living. Maybe CPS should take their kids and send them to
live with the FLDS. Some of them might like polygamy.
Re: G | 12:02 p.m. June 4, 2008
Come on now. You know the liberal thought process is just a one way street.
I'd be happy if CPS had to endure the same torture on their own families that they put on others. It would end all this mess.
I'd be happy if CPS had to endure the same torture on their own families that they put on others. It would end all this mess.
Think!!!! | 12:09 p.m. June 4, 2008
VA gal:
Thank-you for a breathe of "REAL THOUGHT." Your words are so refreshing.
Thank-you for a breathe of "REAL THOUGHT." Your words are so refreshing.
wrz | 12:09 p.m. June 4, 2008
Re: realitcheck re-wrz
"It has to do with having to opportunity and tools to make informed decisions as you grow up so you can have a future of your own choosing instead to being locked into the future your parents chose."
Everyone is locked into the future their parents chose to some extent. More than you think.
"In order for an FLDS woman to have a future of her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE."
Then escape. The world is full of run-aways who would rather be someplace else doing something else. Would you have them learn the fine art of waitressing or cabaret dancing?
"...she doesn't have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make informed decisions."
Very few do... until about mid-life or beyond.
"The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse."
Abuse is what CPS does. In this case, anyway,
"It has to do with having to opportunity and tools to make informed decisions as you grow up so you can have a future of your own choosing instead to being locked into the future your parents chose."
Everyone is locked into the future their parents chose to some extent. More than you think.
"In order for an FLDS woman to have a future of her own choosing, SHE HAS TO ESCAPE."
Then escape. The world is full of run-aways who would rather be someplace else doing something else. Would you have them learn the fine art of waitressing or cabaret dancing?
"...she doesn't have the tools nor understanding of the real world to make informed decisions."
Very few do... until about mid-life or beyond.
"The parents do that on purpose. That's abuse."
Abuse is what CPS does. In this case, anyway,
realitrycheck | 12:12 p.m. June 4, 2008
some of you keep pointing to the RN in the story yesterday and saying "look
- look - they have jobs and careers..."
well, there are only a few women not going back to the ranch, and they set themselves up to get out. If this raid hadn't happened, she would be trying to figure out how to sneak out in the middle of the night. And we'd be reading her book in a few years.
Stop pointing to the one or two examples of women with a skill, especially since all of them want to get out of the FLDS lifestyle. THATS WHY THEY GOT THE SKILLS - TO GET OUT.
what about the hundreds of teen girls and boys that only know 2 things - how to have babies and how to be afraid of the world. (And afraid of Willie Jessop...)
well, there are only a few women not going back to the ranch, and they set themselves up to get out. If this raid hadn't happened, she would be trying to figure out how to sneak out in the middle of the night. And we'd be reading her book in a few years.
Stop pointing to the one or two examples of women with a skill, especially since all of them want to get out of the FLDS lifestyle. THATS WHY THEY GOT THE SKILLS - TO GET OUT.
what about the hundreds of teen girls and boys that only know 2 things - how to have babies and how to be afraid of the world. (And afraid of Willie Jessop...)
MoJules | 1:05 p.m. June 4, 2008
It is true, they do have Dr.s and nurses, we had Rulon Jeff's come get a
C-Pap years ago, he had a personal nurse and body guards with him. I think they
came in three SUV's, the c-pap didn't work and they wanted a bi-pap,
that would have required him to go to a public sleep study, they said they would
figure something out, they wanted a sleep study in his home. Just like any
religion, there are different classes, but like the communistic countries, the
FLDS doesn't give every member that chance. But it has been stated that
traditionally these people only get about an 8th grade education, if CPS does
nothing else, they can at least enforce proper and equal education. These
people are going to have to learn to work in the world, welfare may not come as
easy.
nezr | 1:21 p.m. June 4, 2008
realitrycheck:
If the society is so abusive and controlling then how would they have gotten those skills in the first place? Are they sneaking out every night to attend college? The nurse in the previos article stated that the reason she is not going back to the ranch right now is because she is hoping that will earn her some goodwill with CPS so that they won't come back and steal her children again.
And if you consider the mere fact that they are limiting their children's exposure to the world as being abuse then you must consider the Amish abusive as well. In Amish society at age 16 you are to drop out of school and get married or else you are shunned.
If the society is so abusive and controlling then how would they have gotten those skills in the first place? Are they sneaking out every night to attend college? The nurse in the previos article stated that the reason she is not going back to the ranch right now is because she is hoping that will earn her some goodwill with CPS so that they won't come back and steal her children again.
And if you consider the mere fact that they are limiting their children's exposure to the world as being abuse then you must consider the Amish abusive as well. In Amish society at age 16 you are to drop out of school and get married or else you are shunned.
wrz | 1:26 p.m. June 4, 2008
"...what about the hundreds of teen girls and boys that only know 2 things
- how to have babies and how to be afraid of the world."
And what about not knowing what a crayon is or how to use them?
And what about not knowing what a crayon is or how to use them?
David | 1:34 p.m. June 4, 2008
RC, The women are not permanently "not going back to the ranch", but
living there in part as a requirement by CPS (once they signed their paperwork
they were unable to move back to the ranch or even travel over 100 miles without
48 hours notice to CPS and permission. This was also at the advice of wise
legal counsel based on the egregious action that already took place. But you
knew that and only altered the truth for your own purpose.
And no, they didn't get skills to "get out", but to aid the community. Are you even capable of telling the truth? If women wanted to "get out" they had plenty of opportunities. Six women initially entered "safe houses" until they found that wouldn't aid them in getting their children and immediately bolted. So much for "all wanting to leave."
Please present examples not before me, but before the court of the sole capabilities of "having babies and being fearful". No such evidence was presented by CPS. Again, why lie?
As for the university attended: ask for a refund. You deserve it.
And no, they didn't get skills to "get out", but to aid the community. Are you even capable of telling the truth? If women wanted to "get out" they had plenty of opportunities. Six women initially entered "safe houses" until they found that wouldn't aid them in getting their children and immediately bolted. So much for "all wanting to leave."
Please present examples not before me, but before the court of the sole capabilities of "having babies and being fearful". No such evidence was presented by CPS. Again, why lie?
As for the university attended: ask for a refund. You deserve it.
David | 1:43 p.m. June 4, 2008
Isn't it shocking that children were removed from their homes with mothers
in hysterics and the CPS workers handed the kids crayons and claimed
"children don't know how to use them." In actuality, what child
given that scenario would have wanted to color? Forget that the kids already
had pictures up and drawn prior to that.
And RC, I only needed one example to prove that you were wrong regarding the education of FLDS women. There are many such examples, but oddly or relative to me predictably, you failed to acknowledge such. It would seem that some FLDS men and women are quite educated and some are not. I would wager that some have the capacity for that education, and like yourself, some do not.
And RC, I only needed one example to prove that you were wrong regarding the education of FLDS women. There are many such examples, but oddly or relative to me predictably, you failed to acknowledge such. It would seem that some FLDS men and women are quite educated and some are not. I would wager that some have the capacity for that education, and like yourself, some do not.
But Infants and Toddlers.. | 2:28 p.m. June 4, 2008
But how could the State take even babies and toddlers? What abuse had they been
through to justify taking them from parents at this most formative, sensitive
time of their lives? There was no abuse being perpetrated against these young
ones. This was unconscionable. And a terrible missuse of government power that
should never be allowed to happen again.
realitycheck | 2:49 p.m. June 4, 2008
actually, David, the women are permanently staying away from the ranch. Why is
that so hard for you to grasp? You must not have a very good grasp of the FLDS
religion. It is oppressive, and the women have no rights.
They are not allowed to go to college - those that do have to beg. Now, it didn't used to be that way, before Warren jeffs. But it's that way now. And much worse on YFZ than in Colorado City.
Perhaps your college degree should have been in logic rather than medieval history...
They are not allowed to go to college - those that do have to beg. Now, it didn't used to be that way, before Warren jeffs. But it's that way now. And much worse on YFZ than in Colorado City.
Perhaps your college degree should have been in logic rather than medieval history...
re: No Kidding | 2:51 p.m. June 4, 2008
"Law Enforcement needs to learn it is their job to protect the public
first
Like to serve and protect"
If you dont consider protecting children from pedophiles doing "their job to protect the public", what is your definition of protecting the public?
Like to serve and protect"
If you dont consider protecting children from pedophiles doing "their job to protect the public", what is your definition of protecting the public?
realitycheck | 2:56 p.m. June 4, 2008
ah - David - you love to get in that little jab, huh. Not gonna work, dude.
You'll have to do better than that.
Fact is, there are more examples than one can count of the FLDS making it as difficult as possible to have a life outside the compound.
So - these educated FLDS - where did they go to college? nice try.
Fact is, there are more examples than one can count of the FLDS making it as difficult as possible to have a life outside the compound.
So - these educated FLDS - where did they go to college? nice try.
mistereporter | 4:38 p.m. June 4, 2008
amber, you posted at 9:36 a.m. that you were "so sick of reading the
comments on the web defending the right of the FLDS to raise their children any
way they want to."
Stop reading the comments, Amber, and you will be sick no more.
The same Creator who endowed the FLDS parents with those certain inalienable rights -- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- gave them the inalienable right to raise their children any way they want to.
Stop reading the comments, Amber, and you will be sick no more.
The same Creator who endowed the FLDS parents with those certain inalienable rights -- life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness -- gave them the inalienable right to raise their children any way they want to.
wrz | 4:40 p.m. June 4, 2008
>>So - these educated FLDS - where did they go to college? nice
try.<<
Most are likely blue collar workers... farming, ranching, woodworking, carpentry, cabinetry, don't need college. They reportedly have lucrative government contracts. How can they do that?
The women? They cook, sew, wash clothes, raise kids. Don't knock it, brother. That's what most Americans do... or did, anyway. That's what my mother did. She had a chance to be a Hollywood star but turned it down. Thankfully.
Most are likely blue collar workers... farming, ranching, woodworking, carpentry, cabinetry, don't need college. They reportedly have lucrative government contracts. How can they do that?
The women? They cook, sew, wash clothes, raise kids. Don't knock it, brother. That's what most Americans do... or did, anyway. That's what my mother did. She had a chance to be a Hollywood star but turned it down. Thankfully.
mypc | 4:40 p.m. June 4, 2008
reality check as usual you must not have read where some lawyers told women that
it would be better to not go to the ranch and cps might close their case sooner.
It would also mean less fear of a raid in the night.... and now the second wife
and children will have no man to help. You see welfare and cps love to break up
families and take a long time and lots of hoops to jump through. they are
fortunate they did not get convicted in court of abuse so no one would hire
them. And job checks will have the criminal case so you cannot get a job where
any child goes. Fast food ,babysitting, even walmart.
Freddie | 4:43 p.m. June 4, 2008
wrz: >
I used to eat my crayons. So what? Proves nothing.
I used to eat my crayons. So what? Proves nothing.
Parents are suppose to choose | 4:44 p.m. June 4, 2008
Every parent chooses to what to expose and protect their child from. You
won't have your child smoke or do drugs so they can "experience"
all choices. Parents choose to shield their children from negative
influences.
The upper-middle class snobs who live in gated areas and send their kids to private schools -you bet there is pressure on these kids to go into certain professions.
The inner city kid who lives in poverty - who's mother can't/won't get a job. There's pressure on a lot of these kids to join gangs.
The Southern kid who's parent would never let them go anywhere but a baptist church - The kid could never feel comfortable being gay.
The upper-middle class snobs who live in gated areas and send their kids to private schools -you bet there is pressure on these kids to go into certain professions.
The inner city kid who lives in poverty - who's mother can't/won't get a job. There's pressure on a lot of these kids to join gangs.
The Southern kid who's parent would never let them go anywhere but a baptist church - The kid could never feel comfortable being gay.
realitycheck | 4:57 p.m. June 4, 2008
parents are supposed to choose...
yes, they are. And that's good - they should choose what influences a child gets in their younger years. But the FLDS takes it a step further by making it EXTREMELY difficult to leave and do something of your own choosing.
All of your examples are of people that could choose to do as they wish. They are not on a guarded compound. They are not told they will go to hell if they don't conform (except the gay Baptist but that doesn't make it right..)
Most parents want their children to grow up and be successful, making their mark in the world. The FLDS parents don't want their children to ever go out in the world. That's the difference (as I see it.)
yes, they are. And that's good - they should choose what influences a child gets in their younger years. But the FLDS takes it a step further by making it EXTREMELY difficult to leave and do something of your own choosing.
All of your examples are of people that could choose to do as they wish. They are not on a guarded compound. They are not told they will go to hell if they don't conform (except the gay Baptist but that doesn't make it right..)
Most parents want their children to grow up and be successful, making their mark in the world. The FLDS parents don't want their children to ever go out in the world. That's the difference (as I see it.)
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