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Joyful reunion — FLDS children can't get enough hugs as they join their mom
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To True Beliefs | 10:48 a.m. June 3, 2008
While it is true that girls and boys are born near the rate of 1:1, that
doesn't mean that all the women will want one of their own men. Clearly it
is in the better interest of a child to have the most intelligent, healthiest,
wisest, and most able father to the exclusion of all others. The FLDS women
simply share those superior males. Am I FLDS? Nope, but I understand that is
is better to share a grest man than to have one lousy man for myself.
R` | 10:51 a.m. June 3, 2008
Anonymous @10:09
If you think that way, why are you going by anonymous, rather than using a distinctive screen name?
If you think that way, why are you going by anonymous, rather than using a distinctive screen name?
Oh really...? | 10:56 a.m. June 3, 2008
Hmmmm...I thought that according to the "cultural reference" papers
CPS was using, ALL of the FLDS women were incapable of holding jobs, thinking
for themselves or leaving the ranch? Here is a single mother who was highly
educated and was able to immediately find a (good) job and a home for her
family. Maybe these women weren't quite as helpless as Texas let on.
And on the other hand...now there are women who were able to stay home and be with their kids because of the communal effort and now have to become single, working mothers. Is that better, CPS?
And on the other hand...now there are women who were able to stay home and be with their kids because of the communal effort and now have to become single, working mothers. Is that better, CPS?
Comments continue below
Hey gal50 | 11:06 a.m. June 3, 2008
This mother did not return to the ranch because she was advised, for the time
being, not to return. It seems even her attorney no longer trusts the
"judicial system" and especially CPS.
to pretty story | 11:14 a.m. June 3, 2008
How do you know what the "norm" is among the FLDS?
Ray | 11:59 a.m. June 3, 2008
By the way and elsewhere in the news, what ever happened to that alleged
Canadian girl with no parents at the ranch? Or was she made-up too?
To True Beliefs | 10:48 a.m. | 12:02 p.m. June 3, 2008
You failed completely in answering my questions, but thanks for sharing.
Emma from Illinois | 12:11 p.m. June 3, 2008
I am so happy to see these children reunited with their mother. It's so
easy to see that these children HAVE suffered at the hands of CPS. WHAT? CPS
actually believed that this 37 year old woman was underaged, very hard to
believe. From what these children are saying, and their actions, that they and
their mother have been through a horrible odreal, at the hands of our
government. At least, these children, were able to remain together. The younger
daughter cried every night to her older sister? How EVIL of our society. What
about the many children who were placed in homes without their brothers and
sisters? I feel so bad for these mothers having to run around the whole State of
Texas to regain their children. Where are all the buses, so eager to ship them
out? I am happy to see Dad in the picture, too. It's hard to imagine all of
the abused children, now by CPS, trying to get their lives back to normal. This
mother was lucky to find a job, which she is able to do, many of the other FLDS
mothers may not be so lucky. Happy for this family!
Shawn | 12:19 p.m. June 3, 2008
Just trying to understand the logic of the FLDS. All along they have stated that
they don't have under age brides or force the girls to marry husbands. But
yesterday, "an elder in the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints (FLDS) said church policy going forward will be to forbid any girl to
marry who is not old enough to legally consent in the state where she lives.
Willie Jessop said the church has been widely misunderstood. But he says the
church will not sanction marriages of underage girls and will counsel members
against such unions. Jessop, a church leader, insists marriages within the
church have always been consensual.
This sounds like a change in policy to me, it sounds like up to this point it was allowed.
This sounds like a change in policy to me, it sounds like up to this point it was allowed.
Disgusted | 12:24 p.m. June 3, 2008
Seeing a story/with pictures like this one about Sarah Barlow and her 4 children
warms your heart.She has a house and a job which is wonderful,what most everyone
is afraid of is that they will return to the guarded "ranch" in
Schleicher County.I have lived very close to this place and I assure you --it is
guarded by men that carry guns and they ride the perimeter on a 4 wheeler and
have ever since they admitted who they were.Now that is the part that is scarry.
to shawn | 12:30 p.m. June 3, 2008
To me is sounds like so many people believed the line about underage marriages,
that Jessop merely stated a "new policy" to get CPS and TX off their
backs. The reality is that outside the ranch, girls get pregnant as a
significantly younger and more frequent rate than the FLDS at it's worst
per DHSH statistics. I would be like me saying that I will no longer smoke. I
don't anyway, but it sounds good.
Anonymous | 12:32 p.m. June 3, 2008
"I have lived very close to this place and I assure you --it is guarded by
men that carry guns and they ride the perimeter on a 4 wheeler and have ever
since they admitted who they were.Now that is the part that is scarry. "
What part of riding the perimeter of your property armed is "scarry". The last I looked, that was our legal right as Americans. If it's changed, we Montanans are really in trouble.
What part of riding the perimeter of your property armed is "scarry". The last I looked, that was our legal right as Americans. If it's changed, we Montanans are really in trouble.
foster homes? | 1:05 p.m. June 3, 2008
From what I gather the children are not in foster homes, they are in shelters
for abused children. I have read about the return of the children from several
papers and so far none of them were with private families, all in mass homes.
CPS likes to really abuse the children to the fullest. Better sign the petition
against Walthers. Just google petition walthers. Worth the few minutes it takes
so she does not have any power over powerless mothers and children any longer.
L. G. KIRKPATRICK | 1:07 p.m. June 3, 2008
I have just a few short snippets here.
I also urge all concerned readers to join in the petition to rap Judge Walthers' knuckles. I am not FLDS, and I live in Florida, but I have joined the other signatories to the petition.
I see a couple of snippets of information over on the Salt Lake Tribune boards; one states that Judge Walthers was at the Grand Jury in Schleicher County to swear in the Grand Jurors. I think that any other involvement with the Grand Jury would have entailed a lot more than just one hour of Her Honor's time.
Another mentioned that there has been sexual abuse visited upon the FLDS children in foster care. Has anyone else heard or read of this outrage? If so, can you please provide a link?
Finally, I'd like to suggest to the FLDS parents that whether or not any abuse has been suspected or substantiated so far, please take your precious children to a medical facility NOW and have them checked for any indications of physical or sexual abuse. If substantiated, it will come in VERY handy later.
I also urge all concerned readers to join in the petition to rap Judge Walthers' knuckles. I am not FLDS, and I live in Florida, but I have joined the other signatories to the petition.
I see a couple of snippets of information over on the Salt Lake Tribune boards; one states that Judge Walthers was at the Grand Jury in Schleicher County to swear in the Grand Jurors. I think that any other involvement with the Grand Jury would have entailed a lot more than just one hour of Her Honor's time.
Another mentioned that there has been sexual abuse visited upon the FLDS children in foster care. Has anyone else heard or read of this outrage? If so, can you please provide a link?
Finally, I'd like to suggest to the FLDS parents that whether or not any abuse has been suspected or substantiated so far, please take your precious children to a medical facility NOW and have them checked for any indications of physical or sexual abuse. If substantiated, it will come in VERY handy later.
Red | 1:31 p.m. June 3, 2008
"Texas officials said she was 18 or younger."
You'd think the 13-year-old daughter would give them pause --
But, then this /is/ Texas --
You'd think the 13-year-old daughter would give them pause --
But, then this /is/ Texas --
Re: Ray | 1:48 p.m. June 3, 2008
What ever happened to the bed in the temple, or the kids broken bones, or the
hoax call from Colorado(cant afford caller ID Texas?)
Red | 1:48 p.m. June 3, 2008
True Beliefs | 8:26 a.m."
"since the natural ratio of men to women is 1:1, and since you live in a closed society that attracts VERY few new women, and since some of the men have a dozen or more wives ..."
One way out of your "box" is to marry young girls to older men (why does that sound familiar?).
Works like a Ponzi scheme.
If everyone has, say, ten kids (average: five daughters), then if you "marry down" two generations there are about 25 females for each (grandfather-age) male.
Works like a charm, as long as the population keeps growing.
"since the natural ratio of men to women is 1:1, and since you live in a closed society that attracts VERY few new women, and since some of the men have a dozen or more wives ..."
One way out of your "box" is to marry young girls to older men (why does that sound familiar?).
Works like a Ponzi scheme.
If everyone has, say, ten kids (average: five daughters), then if you "marry down" two generations there are about 25 females for each (grandfather-age) male.
Works like a charm, as long as the population keeps growing.
Oregonian | 2:35 p.m. June 3, 2008
to Pretty Story:
How do you KNOW "Most of the mothers do not have an education and job prospects..." ??? You negative, gossipy people need to get a life.
How do you KNOW "Most of the mothers do not have an education and job prospects..." ??? You negative, gossipy people need to get a life.
re - Oregonian | 3:47 p.m. June 3, 2008
you're kidding, right?
as soon as the woman goes on an interview and tells someone that there's no such thing as dinosaurs, she's lost the job. Give any FLDS mother a standard SAT and they'd badly fail most history and logic sections.
The FLDS purposely keep their people stupid, so there is less chance of escape.
If you can't see it, then you need to get a life, cuz you're in denial. I'm continually amazed at how many people have blinders on here. (Or are FLDS - one or the other) Wait - now that I think about it.... It's probably both. FLDS has had blinders on for a century now....
as soon as the woman goes on an interview and tells someone that there's no such thing as dinosaurs, she's lost the job. Give any FLDS mother a standard SAT and they'd badly fail most history and logic sections.
The FLDS purposely keep their people stupid, so there is less chance of escape.
If you can't see it, then you need to get a life, cuz you're in denial. I'm continually amazed at how many people have blinders on here. (Or are FLDS - one or the other) Wait - now that I think about it.... It's probably both. FLDS has had blinders on for a century now....
To re:Oregonian | 4:16 p.m. June 3, 2008
I live in Georgia and there are LOTS of people that don't believe Dinosaurs
"God planted them." To become an RN you must pass your board exams.
So it is only your logic that fails. The children in custody were above the
state standards for their ages, according to CPS documentation. You base your
comment(s) on gossip over fact.
Anonymous | 4:18 p.m. June 3, 2008
Ya Know, Motherhood IS WORK!!!! Doing it well is worthy and important. In many
workplaces managing as many people as some of these folks have children would
put them in middle management. My heart goes out to this family. I can think of
lots of reasons they might decide to leave YFZ and they have my heartfelt best
wishes wherever they go.
Truth-Sayer | 4:33 p.m. June 3, 2008
I've been around polygamous people my entire life---met them, talked to
them. One time I was camping in southern Utah and was completely surrounded by
dozens of FLDS campers---they were very nice people and they're children
were better behaved than most LDS children I have known.
However said, I cannot justify the practice of polygamy---either from FLDS people or the LDS church's history of it. Why? Because it's not biblically sanctioned by God and never was!
In the Old Testament days (the "old covenant") some people practiced it---but God never commanded a people to do it or sanctioned it. In the New Testament days (under the "covenant" ushered in by Jesus Christ), it was commanded, "one wife for one man."
Whenever God commands something in scripture, there is no confusion or "gray areas" about it---it's said plain and simple!
Polygamy is nothing more than a form of religious-scantioned adultery. Pedophilia and incest are sickening to behold!
Why would God command to do that which he has already said is immorality? Does He contradict himself?
Having said all this, the FLDS people are generally decent people. Get rid of the polygamy doctrine and they're probably better than most!
However said, I cannot justify the practice of polygamy---either from FLDS people or the LDS church's history of it. Why? Because it's not biblically sanctioned by God and never was!
In the Old Testament days (the "old covenant") some people practiced it---but God never commanded a people to do it or sanctioned it. In the New Testament days (under the "covenant" ushered in by Jesus Christ), it was commanded, "one wife for one man."
Whenever God commands something in scripture, there is no confusion or "gray areas" about it---it's said plain and simple!
Polygamy is nothing more than a form of religious-scantioned adultery. Pedophilia and incest are sickening to behold!
Why would God command to do that which he has already said is immorality? Does He contradict himself?
Having said all this, the FLDS people are generally decent people. Get rid of the polygamy doctrine and they're probably better than most!
Interloper | 4:38 p.m. June 3, 2008
Quite a few people on this thread are clearly confused about the facts.
� zxcvbnm, 'Sarah' is a recurring name among the FLDS members. This 'Sarah' was 'spiritually married' to at least one man twice her age. She has at least one other child, possibly by a 'spiritual husband' she was reassigned to.
� The appeals courts found there wasn't sufficient evidence to remove all the children from their alleged parents. That is far different from saying the trial court did not find any evidence at all.
� One cannot adhere to the teachings of Warren Jeffs and not break the law. Indeed, it is possible to 'test' whether a member of the FLDS has really changed by asking about him. If the person gives the "He is perfect to me," spiel, that person is still brainwashed and not opposed to child abuse.
Anyone concerned about whether the child abuse will continue should be asking the kind of questions I have.
� zxcvbnm, 'Sarah' is a recurring name among the FLDS members. This 'Sarah' was 'spiritually married' to at least one man twice her age. She has at least one other child, possibly by a 'spiritual husband' she was reassigned to.
� The appeals courts found there wasn't sufficient evidence to remove all the children from their alleged parents. That is far different from saying the trial court did not find any evidence at all.
� One cannot adhere to the teachings of Warren Jeffs and not break the law. Indeed, it is possible to 'test' whether a member of the FLDS has really changed by asking about him. If the person gives the "He is perfect to me," spiel, that person is still brainwashed and not opposed to child abuse.
Anyone concerned about whether the child abuse will continue should be asking the kind of questions I have.
realitycheck | 4:52 p.m. June 3, 2008
It amazes me that posters like Truth-Sayer actually think they know what God
commands.
No one knows. Some have written books trying to say they know, but none really know.
What you need to do is look into your heart for what God commands. And I guarentee you He doesn't want you to hide from a world that He created, and He wouldn't want you to keep your children from finding their rightful place in the world.
So stop pretending that you know, and let your children be free to choose their path. That's how you can truly give back to God for all he has given you....
No one knows. Some have written books trying to say they know, but none really know.
What you need to do is look into your heart for what God commands. And I guarentee you He doesn't want you to hide from a world that He created, and He wouldn't want you to keep your children from finding their rightful place in the world.
So stop pretending that you know, and let your children be free to choose their path. That's how you can truly give back to God for all he has given you....
Choose their path | 5:01 p.m. June 3, 2008
I could not agree with you more, RealityCheck! All children should not be given
any religious training since ALL are abusive. Without a belief in God we
wouldn't have had all the crusades or a holocaust, so the sooner religions
cease to exist the fewer wars we we have. Currently we are at war (iraq)
because of religion BTW
Atheism | 5:10 p.m. June 3, 2008
To reality check - What is Abraham's relationship to Sarah other than wife?
Why did the Lot's daughters children call Lot "daddy?" Why is
it that you don't follow the morals of your holy bible?
Yes, we could do without teaching children about god, then as adults they would be truly free to choose.
Yes, we could do without teaching children about god, then as adults they would be truly free to choose.
Not an Adult! | 7:04 p.m. June 3, 2008
I cannot believe CPS did not think Sarah was an adult. She is 37 years old. What
is wrong with these people.
Re:Truth �Sayer | 7:39 p.m. June 3, 2008
However said, I cannot justify the practice of polygamy---either from FLDS
people or the LDS church's history of it. Why? Because it's not
biblically sanctioned by God and never was!
"In the Old Testament days (the "old covenant") some people practiced it---but God never commanded a people to do it or sanctioned it. In the New Testament days (under the "covenant" ushered in by Jesus Christ), it was commanded, "one wife for one man."
Whenever God commands something in scripture, there is no confusion or "gray areas" about it---it's said plain and simple!"
Why did God give a pass to Abraham and Jacob for practicing polygamy then? The twelve tribes of Israel descended from Jacobs four wives and that means Christ is a descendant of polygamists since Mary was also Jewish. If God had condemned polygamy then why did Christ come through a line of polygamists? If God is unchangeable, how could polygamy be permitted in the OT and then later revoked in the NT. The answer to that question is God can command and revoke anytime he sees fit.
"In the Old Testament days (the "old covenant") some people practiced it---but God never commanded a people to do it or sanctioned it. In the New Testament days (under the "covenant" ushered in by Jesus Christ), it was commanded, "one wife for one man."
Whenever God commands something in scripture, there is no confusion or "gray areas" about it---it's said plain and simple!"
Why did God give a pass to Abraham and Jacob for practicing polygamy then? The twelve tribes of Israel descended from Jacobs four wives and that means Christ is a descendant of polygamists since Mary was also Jewish. If God had condemned polygamy then why did Christ come through a line of polygamists? If God is unchangeable, how could polygamy be permitted in the OT and then later revoked in the NT. The answer to that question is God can command and revoke anytime he sees fit.
zxcvbnm | 8:13 p.m. June 3, 2008
RE Sater....sure God can do what he wants...he is god. It is just amazing that
God sends prophets....men to do the message delivering.
False prophets..real prophets.......or we prophets unto ourselves. Chose your prophet.
I chose to read, interpret, and live my life as an individual/ I have help from my church when I ask for it(Catholic).
When I meet God he and or she will decide how good a job I have done in interpreting his-her wishes.
In the meantime I don't need government interfering in the communication and or interpretation.
This country acknowledged my God given right to worship as I please....now leave me alone to worship. Caesar is dead...we chose our own path.
False prophets..real prophets.......or we prophets unto ourselves. Chose your prophet.
I chose to read, interpret, and live my life as an individual/ I have help from my church when I ask for it(Catholic).
When I meet God he and or she will decide how good a job I have done in interpreting his-her wishes.
In the meantime I don't need government interfering in the communication and or interpretation.
This country acknowledged my God given right to worship as I please....now leave me alone to worship. Caesar is dead...we chose our own path.
Lynn | 9:41 p.m. June 3, 2008
This is a happy day! I have been praying that the children will be reunited
with their mothers and fathers (not all of them were abusers, I'm sure).
This article clears up a few things. First, obviously, not all the mothers are or were underage! Sarah was 24 when she had her first child. I was only 20, when I had my first of six children! When I went to the Navy Hospital in Charleston to plan my pre-natal care, with my third pregnancy, at the age of 24, the Corpsman thought I was only 15! Looks can be deceiving. CPS would do well to stop guessing ages, and start believing documents, such as those birth certificates, driver's licenses, and tax forms that these mothers gave them. That might have avoided some of this mess, and some of the embarrassment. It's things like this that make CPS look silly. Second, apparently these women are not all just mindless Step-ford wives, with no education. It took some training and experience for Sarah to be an RN, and to be hired as an ER nurse.
I wish the best for Sarah, her family, and other families that are now together again.
This article clears up a few things. First, obviously, not all the mothers are or were underage! Sarah was 24 when she had her first child. I was only 20, when I had my first of six children! When I went to the Navy Hospital in Charleston to plan my pre-natal care, with my third pregnancy, at the age of 24, the Corpsman thought I was only 15! Looks can be deceiving. CPS would do well to stop guessing ages, and start believing documents, such as those birth certificates, driver's licenses, and tax forms that these mothers gave them. That might have avoided some of this mess, and some of the embarrassment. It's things like this that make CPS look silly. Second, apparently these women are not all just mindless Step-ford wives, with no education. It took some training and experience for Sarah to be an RN, and to be hired as an ER nurse.
I wish the best for Sarah, her family, and other families that are now together again.
K | 10:18 p.m. June 3, 2008
If you need 3 for heaven, why do some have 12 or more? If marriage is forever,
why are there reassignments? Especially when "prophets" do the
arranging. Are they false? Wouldn't they see that a man would be a disgrace
and the women and children would have to be reassigned? Then why go through the
original forever marriage in the first place?
I'd hate to be 14 year old living in that life. Male or Female.
If it's a willing, nonforcible choice why are brides in their mid to late teens at their first forever marriage?
How many adults, hadn't been adults when they were first married?
Why do they have no birth records, why didn't the children know their mother's? Why did they lie about their names? Why did so many refuse the DNA? So they can make it difficult to prosecute. That's why.
Why was there any teen pregnancy with a "mom" in each room with several bunkbeds for the kids; some of which were hers and others not? How is that not communal living?
I'd hate to be 14 year old living in that life. Male or Female.
If it's a willing, nonforcible choice why are brides in their mid to late teens at their first forever marriage?
How many adults, hadn't been adults when they were first married?
Why do they have no birth records, why didn't the children know their mother's? Why did they lie about their names? Why did so many refuse the DNA? So they can make it difficult to prosecute. That's why.
Why was there any teen pregnancy with a "mom" in each room with several bunkbeds for the kids; some of which were hers and others not? How is that not communal living?
It is their right! | 11:57 a.m. July 19, 2008
I am a muslim women who hppens to agree with the FLDS life style and choices! I
myself am much more interested in how they came to live "sected" out.
Meaning, how did they raise the funds to start. My heart goes out to all the
mothers and fathers and mostly the children who had to tolerate this mess. God
will truly bless you all, as this was mearly a test, that I myself would say you
all passed! I feel that God allowed women to start the menstrals at a certain
age for reason. And there also is a reason that age is different for everyone.
Marriage this young went on HERE in the USA far longer then it has with people
having to be 18. The only thing I would say is that as long as the young lady
wants to marry this man, and he has the means to take care of her and his other
wives ( meaning they are not on welfare or being forced to work) then so be it.
Wake up America and read the BIBLE this so called "FREE" country is
found apon! Flds women way to be REAL MOTHERS! Congrads!
Amanda | 9:33 a.m. Oct. 28, 2009
I am a 27 year old Christian woman who thinks it's none of the
government's business how many wives and children people have, or at what
age people marry. I don't agree with polygamy. I think it would be
miserable, but I do NOT think it's morally or ethically wrong.
My best friend got married when she was 17. It was her choice. She has 5 beautiful children and is totally happy and fulfilled as a mother. Several of my close childhood friends were married before age 18 ( I have never been married) and have large families. It should be a personal decision.
I think the seizure of these kids opened up a door we do not want opened. People can;t even spank their kids in public anymore. And now kids are being taken from their parents for no good reason. It's ludicrous.
My best friend got married when she was 17. It was her choice. She has 5 beautiful children and is totally happy and fulfilled as a mother. Several of my close childhood friends were married before age 18 ( I have never been married) and have large families. It should be a personal decision.
I think the seizure of these kids opened up a door we do not want opened. People can;t even spank their kids in public anymore. And now kids are being taken from their parents for no good reason. It's ludicrous.
t zamen | 12:23 a.m. Oct. 29, 2009
Unfortunately, Christians have a big problem understanding the religions and
they keep giving their perceptions agianst muslims marrying 3 to 12..! like 1400
yrs ago there was nothing but humiliating mankind everywhere the Prophet (PBUH)n
fact gave shelter & for your kind info. married those who were widows &
divorced by their deranged men and so on...! IS IT BAD TO GIVE A SEHLTER OR
SUPPORT TO A ANYONE..?
By the way , how do treat a woman in US..? Just ponder and then you may speak against others.
Mind you first sweep in your own doors.
By the way , how do treat a woman in US..? Just ponder and then you may speak against others.
Mind you first sweep in your own doors.
Anonymous | 1:44 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009
Any religion that incourages sexual, mental and physical abuse needs to be
punished by the full extent of the law, I was born in this religion and there is
more than what meets the eye. Its not about sex it is about control and wanting
the end of the world they are only a step away from being suicide bombers.
THEeyepatch | 3:46 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009
Shows that love will always defeat the foundation of EVIL! Then again maybe EVIL
wins for.......
legalize | 10:16 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009
I think it would be smart to legalize plural unions. I think the state could
better filter and protect women if this is the case. This is a free country it
is not our job to approve of another's lifestyle. By legalizing plural
marriage we could moinitor those involved to prevent child abuse.
Mrs.Zee | 10:29 a.m. Oct. 30, 2009
Let's look at the world we live in today. The children r as young as ten
yrs.of age is having sex with boys twice there age and having babies out of
wedlock.young woman get the feeling to want to explore sex early than a young
men we say it's okay for them to have sex behind our backs but when they
get pregant we look at or self and wonder what have we done wrong and now here
is a child raising a child with no help because now mommy has to provide for the
both. Here is a place were the families help take care of each other. I ask this
how many murders happended how many homless people live in they community how
many disrespectful children.The only thing is that the way things were done
that's it.
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The Temple is not considered a landmark in San Diego! Maybe if your LDS but...
I think anyone would lose there Job for having sex on the clock. And those...
Writting a song celebrating Hanukkah in no way removes Christ from...
Wealthiest generation in the history of the world. Even Americans living in...
To Trevor | 1:48 p.m. Protests and boycotts CAN be bullying. Especially...
Do it, BYU isn't going anywhere
Well we won't get SS on our home floor, but we do next week in Kanab. Too bad...
To Jayeg, I would have no problem if a Muslim mosque was built on the...
The study has the same validity as the survey of skydivers who have just...
...remember SynCrete?
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