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FLDS official: No more underage marriages; reunifications begin with the children
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magnus | 11:18 a.m. June 2, 2008
@ Transplant
This article stated that the mothers (and fathers in most cases) not chosing to return to the ranch did so in order to prove their good faith in complying with the courts orders. I read that many of the familys purchased homes or appartments off of the ranch because they where told that would help them to get their kids back and keep them once they did.
It is also well documented that CPS told many mothers when they were initially separated form their children that if they went back to the ranch that they would never see their kids again.
My guess is that there will be a few mothers who take this as an opportunity to leave the FLDS church either alone or with their children. That being said I think the large majority will remain active and faithfull in that church.
These people aren't the mindless brainwashed drones being held captive by masogynistic pedofiles that they are made out to be. They are just a little different, and they have seemingly been lead astray by a bad leader.
This article stated that the mothers (and fathers in most cases) not chosing to return to the ranch did so in order to prove their good faith in complying with the courts orders. I read that many of the familys purchased homes or appartments off of the ranch because they where told that would help them to get their kids back and keep them once they did.
It is also well documented that CPS told many mothers when they were initially separated form their children that if they went back to the ranch that they would never see their kids again.
My guess is that there will be a few mothers who take this as an opportunity to leave the FLDS church either alone or with their children. That being said I think the large majority will remain active and faithfull in that church.
These people aren't the mindless brainwashed drones being held captive by masogynistic pedofiles that they are made out to be. They are just a little different, and they have seemingly been lead astray by a bad leader.
Reasonable Restrictions | 11:17 a.m. June 2, 2008
Enough with all the hyperbole.
The judge placed reasonable restrictions for returning the children so that the state could complete its investigation of possible child abuse.
Saying that the state has to have undenial proof of child abuse before they can investigate allegations of child abuse is assinine.
The judge placed reasonable restrictions for returning the children so that the state could complete its investigation of possible child abuse.
Saying that the state has to have undenial proof of child abuse before they can investigate allegations of child abuse is assinine.
Comments continue below
Law Suit Paradise | 11:17 a.m. June 2, 2008
Can you imagine the money that Texas wasted on this raid? Not to mention the
MILLIONS of bucks that will be paid to the families when the lawsuits start
flying about the illegal raid.
Parenting Classes | 11:22 a.m. June 2, 2008
I think there is a misunderstanding on the Parenting Class thing, it is FLDS are
teaching CPS and others how to be Parents, as they have more Experience and
training in that field. So this is a good thing.
byulaw | 11:30 a.m. June 2, 2008
Polygamy is illegal. That means it's against the law. Remember?
There's evidence of that. Recall that? And the law has precedence over an
allegation that this "sanctioned practice" is justified via religion.
Because it's not. In addition, it's wrong. I'm thoroughly
disgusted by the politically correct mentality of the world and the ignorant,
frankly misunderstood people that support it.
COSMO | 11:37 a.m. June 2, 2008
Re: Gray Wolf; I am glad that the FLDS mothers performed so well for your
viewing pleasure.
I am equally sure, that they did not mind at all, given the fact,that there was NO welfare fraud,lies,
abuse,or convictions. And that (2)TWO, higher courts
clearly said, that Judge Walther, and CPS had been wrong in their actions. To a bigot,those facts don't
mean much,but to those people unjustly uprooted in their lives, I do believe they mean a great deal.
As a point of history,.... never mind, the lesson would be lost on you.
I am equally sure, that they did not mind at all, given the fact,that there was NO welfare fraud,lies,
abuse,or convictions. And that (2)TWO, higher courts
clearly said, that Judge Walther, and CPS had been wrong in their actions. To a bigot,those facts don't
mean much,but to those people unjustly uprooted in their lives, I do believe they mean a great deal.
As a point of history,.... never mind, the lesson would be lost on you.
Old Geezer in Vegas | 11:43 a.m. June 2, 2008
Gray Wolf stated: �The abusers of the welfare system did
not get their way, nor did CPS, nor did the attorneys.�
& �In the meantime, the FLDS will continue to develop
further skills to manipulate the welfare system, have more spiritual wives, more
wonderful innocent children and lives scarred by a misdirected
lifestyle.�
It has been stated many times in the various news articles that the families at the FLDS ranch were on no government assisance of any kind!!
Get Your Facts straight!!!
It has been stated many times in the various news articles that the families at the FLDS ranch were on no government assisance of any kind!!
Get Your Facts straight!!!
Jon | 11:45 a.m. June 2, 2008
I find it interesting that most of the comments on here are black or white, most
people see their side without considering the other. State of Texas homers are
sure that these kids are being abused while FLDS homers or those wary of the
government only see that kids were taken away from their parents for what they
deem illegal reasons.
I think the truth lies in the middle. There probably is some abuse going on. We know there are underaged pregnant girls, right? But at the same time, removing all the kids probably wasn't the right thing to do when it seems the vast majority of them are ok. There's a lot of grey with this issue and I think we'd all be well-served to at least listen to the other side before forming an opinion on this.
I think the truth lies in the middle. There probably is some abuse going on. We know there are underaged pregnant girls, right? But at the same time, removing all the kids probably wasn't the right thing to do when it seems the vast majority of them are ok. There's a lot of grey with this issue and I think we'd all be well-served to at least listen to the other side before forming an opinion on this.
Nick | 11:58 a.m. June 2, 2008
Now, hopefully, the attorneys will return to the Appellate Court and get this
order overturned.
This judge is an embarrassment to her profession.
This judge is an embarrassment to her profession.
re: Grey Wolf 11:13 am | 12:02 p.m. June 2, 2008
There was no abuse of the welfare system at the YFZ ranch!
ZERO of the families at the YZ Ranch are on welfare.
Put down the story book full of lies and half-truths and figure it out, the story book was written to sell! It's a STORY!
ZERO of the families at the YZ Ranch are on welfare.
Put down the story book full of lies and half-truths and figure it out, the story book was written to sell! It's a STORY!
Steve - Too Strong Restrictions | 12:05 p.m. June 2, 2008
Good news, but this is only a so-so win for the families. I'm glad
they're getting reunited as they should (never should've taken them
all in the first place), but I'm not crazy about some of the restrictions.
The entire group is being treated like criminals even though any actual sexual or physical abuse might only be occuring with a very few. It's unfair that they can't leave the state without first getting permission (reminds me of a stipulation for people on probation) and that they all have to take parenting classes.
Parenting classes... who are we to push our way of raising kids on another? Theirs might actually be better in some areas (for example it's been noted that unlike many kids in the world theirs are unfailingly polite).
I can MAYBE see/understand the un-announced visits by child services to check up on them (to make sure there are no pregnant under-age girls for one thing)... but the rest of it is a bit much if you ask me. As long as no crimes are being committed, let them live their lives and religion how they see fit.
The entire group is being treated like criminals even though any actual sexual or physical abuse might only be occuring with a very few. It's unfair that they can't leave the state without first getting permission (reminds me of a stipulation for people on probation) and that they all have to take parenting classes.
Parenting classes... who are we to push our way of raising kids on another? Theirs might actually be better in some areas (for example it's been noted that unlike many kids in the world theirs are unfailingly polite).
I can MAYBE see/understand the un-announced visits by child services to check up on them (to make sure there are no pregnant under-age girls for one thing)... but the rest of it is a bit much if you ask me. As long as no crimes are being committed, let them live their lives and religion how they see fit.
Unibrow Mom | 12:06 p.m. June 2, 2008
We are so pleased that our lovely children will be returning. Our husband has
missed them so...
Old Geezer in Vegas | 12:11 p.m. June 2, 2008
Jon Stated: �I find it interesting that most of the
comments on here are black or white, most people see their side without
considering the other. State of Texas homers are sure that these kids are being
abused while FLDS homers or those wary of the government only see that kids were
taken away from their parents for what they deem illegal
reasons.�
I agree with you and there may be cases of abuse at the ranch. They should be prosecuted but they probably can�t be because of the way the Judge, Sheriff, CPS and others went after them.
There�s a right way and a wrong way to do things and Texas chose the wrong way!!
I agree with you and there may be cases of abuse at the ranch. They should be prosecuted but they probably can�t be because of the way the Judge, Sheriff, CPS and others went after them.
There�s a right way and a wrong way to do things and Texas chose the wrong way!!
Re: Nick | 12:12 p.m. June 2, 2008
"Now, hopefully, the attorneys will return to the Appellate Court and get
this order overturned."
Highly unlikely, since the Texas Supreme Court already ruled that the lower court could set conditions for returning the children, including, requiring that the children could not be taken out of the state of Texas.
Highly unlikely, since the Texas Supreme Court already ruled that the lower court could set conditions for returning the children, including, requiring that the children could not be taken out of the state of Texas.
Steve - Re: Southern Utah Res. | 12:20 p.m. June 2, 2008
Yes, I've seen that picture of Jeffs kissing the 12 year-old girl. But how
do you know she was raped? Maybe I missed that part. Just because he kissed
her doesn't mean he had or was having intercourse with her. Or has it been
reported that he did with that girl?
And as for arranged marriages... they're quite old-fashioned as far as most of us are concerned, but it's been a practice going on all through history in various countries with many groups of people. I don't agree with it, a person should marry someone they love and want to marry... but let the FLDS have their arranged marriages, so long as the actual cerimony doesn't occur until all involved are old enough by law.
And as for arranged marriages... they're quite old-fashioned as far as most of us are concerned, but it's been a practice going on all through history in various countries with many groups of people. I don't agree with it, a person should marry someone they love and want to marry... but let the FLDS have their arranged marriages, so long as the actual cerimony doesn't occur until all involved are old enough by law.
Citadel | 12:22 p.m. June 2, 2008
Glad the children are going home!
Re: Jon | 12:23 p.m. June 2, 2008
Why is the truth always in the middle? That is a dangerous precident that judges
usually always take. That being said, this attitude of the "truth is in the
middle" penalizes the truely innocent. No innocent person can be innocent
under that. That is why one is INNOCENT until proven guilty..something the
Marxist/feministic CPS violates.
krs | 12:25 p.m. June 2, 2008
So these kids can go home and after 8:30pm can be abused...Sounds like a great
idea!! ( not) i say at least make the surprise visit anytime night or day 367
days a week 24 hrs a day..
Hypocrites? | 12:30 p.m. June 2, 2008
Polygamy is illegal. Child molestation and incest are heinous. And illegal.
Depriving someone of their individuality, personal liberties and freedoms is
immoral and unconstitutional. The support here for religion to trump these
wrongs is apalling. We're not talking 'parenting practices' or
traditions here. They're sex crimes, and worse. Stuff we wouldn't
normally begin to tolerate here.
If this stuff can be excused because you bouff it up, dress it as the 'little house' cast, and call it god's will via the prophet, watch out for what I can justify with the same rationale. We'll get around some of those silly Utah laws yet, god willing.
If this stuff can be excused because you bouff it up, dress it as the 'little house' cast, and call it god's will via the prophet, watch out for what I can justify with the same rationale. We'll get around some of those silly Utah laws yet, god willing.
Re: krs | 12:32 p.m. June 2, 2008
What abuse? CPS still cannot find any.. The final count is a 16 year old and 17
year old pregnant (go to Common Room for links).. That is IT. No spanking, no
molestation, nothing yet. I hope your neighbor's/church member's
teenage daughter does not have a fling with a boy 4+ years and older or that her
father abuses her and you get to have flashlights in your and your
children's face until 2030 at 2 a.m. (True, the FLDS don't have
flings, but you get my point...that restriction is ridiculous for most of the
families involved) and have the government tell you how to raise really great
children (tounge in cheek) and have you evaluated for psych exams and haul your
children to who knows where to be interogated....
Atlman | 12:34 p.m. June 2, 2008
I am very dismayed over all this. From the postings I read, the LDS Church (
members) have made every effort to distance themselves and make a clear
distinction between the Utah based Church and the FLDS. You, in your Christian
charity, even took offense that the judge would request that you assist the
children with prayers and you were outraged that any connection would be made
between LDS and FLDS. But when it comes a chance to cry "persecution
!" of FLDS you jumped in with such anger that a lot of you seemed out of
control. Perhaps it is the LDS who inwardly are "Longing for Zion".
With this ruling in Texas, I strongly suspect there may be a "new
revelation" from your Prophet that the Lord has lifted the ban on Polygamy.
Not and ex...not an anti ( please let go of those mantras ). I am just puzzled
at your outrage over a group that you SAY you have do not want to be associated
with. Please, let go of the persecution complex( even vicariously ) It is
becoming a broken record. Respect the Texas Supremen Court? Also respect
California Supreme Court.
Utah Resident | 12:39 p.m. June 2, 2008
POLYGAMY IS ILLEGAL!
Do your job and prosecute it Mark Shurtleff.
Do your job and prosecute it Mark Shurtleff.
The View Watcher | 12:40 p.m. June 2, 2008
An employee of a notable national television show just made a comment on a
national morning show to the effect that the FLDS is a scam not a religion.
That person also said that the purpose of the bed in the Temple is that the FLDS
religion requires that a third party witness the consummation of a marriage in
order for it to be valid.
Is that really a tenet of the FLDS religion, or just more over-the-top reporting?
Is that really a tenet of the FLDS religion, or just more over-the-top reporting?
re: Hypocrites? | 12:41 p.m. June 2, 2008
Child molestation and incest are heinous.
False accusations are just as heinous. Go crawl under a rock.
False accusations are just as heinous. Go crawl under a rock.
This raid will become history | 12:47 p.m. June 2, 2008
Even if some convictions are eventually made... This ill-concieved raid will go
down in history as a case study of WHAT NOT TO DO if you are a CPS employee with
some pre-concieved notions about a group of secretive people and then some
evidence is dropped in your lap that confirms your prejudice and makes you feel
justified in acting on your pre-concieved notions without checking on the
varacity of the evidence dropped in your lap.
This case will be covered in social worker classes for years to come.
This story will be told as evidence of what happens when prejudice is allowed to take hold in the imaginations of a whole department of social-workers and the bad outcomes for all involved when an agency considers itself above the law and it's errand more important than the rights of the citizens it was created to protect.
This case will be covered in social worker classes for years to come.
This story will be told as evidence of what happens when prejudice is allowed to take hold in the imaginations of a whole department of social-workers and the bad outcomes for all involved when an agency considers itself above the law and it's errand more important than the rights of the citizens it was created to protect.
Arranged | 12:47 p.m. June 2, 2008
Arranged marriages take place in many cultures and are not illegal. The problem
is the assumption that just because a child is born to a family that choses to
participate in a particular faith or culture, that culture somehow has property
rights over that child and is free to determine his/her fate.
In this country, freedom of choice and freedom of religion means that every individual is free to chose. That includes young girls born into the sect.
The case that landed Jeffs behind bars is a legally documented instance of a young girl being pressured into a marriage she did not want. Her assigned husband was not an old man, but that isn't the point. Her fundamental human right to choose her own path in life was trampled by people who still seem confused about why anyone thinks it was so wrong.
Children of FLDS members are not FLDS property. The FLDS has every right to teach them according to their beliefs, but they have no right to force them into unwanted marriages - at any age.
The state has a right to step in to protect their right to choose.
In this country, freedom of choice and freedom of religion means that every individual is free to chose. That includes young girls born into the sect.
The case that landed Jeffs behind bars is a legally documented instance of a young girl being pressured into a marriage she did not want. Her assigned husband was not an old man, but that isn't the point. Her fundamental human right to choose her own path in life was trampled by people who still seem confused about why anyone thinks it was so wrong.
Children of FLDS members are not FLDS property. The FLDS has every right to teach them according to their beliefs, but they have no right to force them into unwanted marriages - at any age.
The state has a right to step in to protect their right to choose.
Conejo | 12:48 p.m. June 2, 2008
This was inevitable. A group of people can NEVER be punished as a group for what
individuals in the group do. It doesn't matter what belief system they
have. If they aren't individually breaking the law, they CAN'T be
punished. Anyone who has taken a 3rd grade civics class knows this. How is it
the CPS and a judge who supposedly has a law degree does not? Judge Walthers
should pack her bags and retire. I shudder at what decisions she has made in the
past regarding parental rights.
Local | 12:48 p.m. June 2, 2008
Hey anonymous 8:46 am,
"Come to dixie, get to know these people.. Your mind would change..
Texas did the right thing.. "
Really? I have treated their families in my medical clinic for 11 years. I know them as well as an outsider can know them and have found them to be wonderful people. The reason no abuse has been proved yet is that it is pretty rare--you will be hard pressed to find better parents in most cases.
Come get to know these people indeed! Texas blackened the eye of our nation.
"Come to dixie, get to know these people.. Your mind would change..
Texas did the right thing.. "
Really? I have treated their families in my medical clinic for 11 years. I know them as well as an outsider can know them and have found them to be wonderful people. The reason no abuse has been proved yet is that it is pretty rare--you will be hard pressed to find better parents in most cases.
Come get to know these people indeed! Texas blackened the eye of our nation.
No Child Abuse Here | 12:51 p.m. June 2, 2008
To: Steve ... | 12:20 p.m.
"but let the FLDS have their arranged marriages, so long as the actual cerimony [sic] doesn't occur until all involved are old enough by law..."
In the meantime, it's okay for a 50-year-old to rape a 12-year-old girl that he's "spiritually" married to, since he can't legally marry her until she's old enough to give consent?
Warren Jeffs is shown kissing a 12-year-old girl in a photo labeled "First Anniversary," and the FLDS apologists want us to believe:
1. That Warren Jeffs WASN'T married to her.
2. That Warren Jeffs WASN'T having sex with her.
3. That Warren Jeffs doesn't teach and practice underage marriage.
The tortured logic of those who support non-child-abusing pedophiles.
And we thought deNile was the name of a river in Egypt.
"but let the FLDS have their arranged marriages, so long as the actual cerimony [sic] doesn't occur until all involved are old enough by law..."
In the meantime, it's okay for a 50-year-old to rape a 12-year-old girl that he's "spiritually" married to, since he can't legally marry her until she's old enough to give consent?
Warren Jeffs is shown kissing a 12-year-old girl in a photo labeled "First Anniversary," and the FLDS apologists want us to believe:
1. That Warren Jeffs WASN'T married to her.
2. That Warren Jeffs WASN'T having sex with her.
3. That Warren Jeffs doesn't teach and practice underage marriage.
The tortured logic of those who support non-child-abusing pedophiles.
And we thought deNile was the name of a river in Egypt.
Mary | 12:56 p.m. June 2, 2008
There are better and more effective ways to deal with this than ripping 450+
children from their mothers. There are thousands of abusers in this country that
are single parents or men and women with one spouse. They WORK with them to
bring up their awareness up of what is acceptable. These people should not be
treated any other way.
Steve - Re: Atlman | 12:57 p.m. June 2, 2008
Why do you assume that everyone defending the FLDS are LDS? Maybe they're
not. You don't have to be LDS in order to sympathize with these people.
EldoNative | 1:01 p.m. June 2, 2008
Oklahoma Mormon:
It was the bleeding heart liberals that defended the parents and got the children back! Judge Walther is a lot of things but a liberal she is not.
The ACLU is not a right wing conservative organization nor is the RioGrande Legal Aid. They are LIBERALS!!
It was the bleeding heart liberals that defended the parents and got the children back! Judge Walther is a lot of things but a liberal she is not.
The ACLU is not a right wing conservative organization nor is the RioGrande Legal Aid. They are LIBERALS!!
Idaho Watcher | 1:08 p.m. June 2, 2008
If FLDS "religion" called for throwing a virgin into the Snake River
Gorge, would the FLDS backers be just as tolerant and supportive? What about
child brides -- OK, too? And "religion" mandating 15-year old child
mothers? All in the tenets and writings of the "religion." And
polygamy? This is all about power and control and money, and the abuse is to the
children and the women inside, and the taxpayers of Texas and the US who support
these practices with tax dollars Turning a blind eye is the other way we support
this abuse. This roundup doesn't threaten my individual freedoms because I
am not trying to deny freedom to anyone else. There is a reason why these
compounds are surrounded by barriers and isolated -- control and power and
money.
Older Gray Wolf in the Rockies | 1:12 p.m. June 2, 2008
TO: Old Geezer in Vegas | 11:43 a.m. June 2, 2008
You quoted a big paragraph while challenging only one idea. Welfare abuse. I say let's see the records (if the feds can determine the right names).
TO: COSMO | 11:37 a.m. June 2, 2008
I sincerely mean to compliment the virtues of the FLDS mothers. Those virtues have very little to do with the FLDS. A mother's instinct is God given.
I'm willing to be persuaded about no abuse of the welfare system. What do the Federal Government welfare rolls show (if they can determine the right name)
Maybe you were not in on the early part of this sad story. Attempts to thwart the legal process were rampart (according to the same news reports)
You'r dead wrong on the BIGOT part. Bigot and opinions go together NOT BIGOT and a person reminding you that it is against the law to live the lifestyle the FLDS are living...no matter even if their companions are described as spiritual wifes. In a sense, most wives could be considered spiritual. However, MOST of us abide by the law!
The FLDS ranch is not a separate country, but the USA.
You quoted a big paragraph while challenging only one idea. Welfare abuse. I say let's see the records (if the feds can determine the right names).
TO: COSMO | 11:37 a.m. June 2, 2008
I sincerely mean to compliment the virtues of the FLDS mothers. Those virtues have very little to do with the FLDS. A mother's instinct is God given.
I'm willing to be persuaded about no abuse of the welfare system. What do the Federal Government welfare rolls show (if they can determine the right name)
Maybe you were not in on the early part of this sad story. Attempts to thwart the legal process were rampart (according to the same news reports)
You'r dead wrong on the BIGOT part. Bigot and opinions go together NOT BIGOT and a person reminding you that it is against the law to live the lifestyle the FLDS are living...no matter even if their companions are described as spiritual wifes. In a sense, most wives could be considered spiritual. However, MOST of us abide by the law!
The FLDS ranch is not a separate country, but the USA.
Steve - Re: No Child Abuse Here | 1:20 p.m. June 2, 2008
Did I ever say it was OK for Jeffs to rape that 12 year-old "spiritual
wife" or for any teen boy/older man whom any girl is arranged to marry
(before she's the legal age to do so)? No. You only assume that a sexual
relationship is going on between the couple arranged to be married at a later
date. Perhaps the relationship is strictly platonic until the date years down
the road when the marriage actually takes place... I see nothing wrong with
that.
What's so wrong or illegal about an understanding, and JUST an understanding, that a girl will marry a certain man AFTER she comes of age and until then no "hanky panky" is going on? I myself however would of course let my kids marry whoever they choose as is best.
And about the word "pedophile", it's used mistakenly by most. Correct usage of it refers to people who are attracted ONLY to pre-pubecent individuals (usually under 12 or 13). Since most involved here in the FLDS are teens, there's a whole different PC word/lable for them... but they aren't pedophiles (nor is someone who is also attracted to adults).
What's so wrong or illegal about an understanding, and JUST an understanding, that a girl will marry a certain man AFTER she comes of age and until then no "hanky panky" is going on? I myself however would of course let my kids marry whoever they choose as is best.
And about the word "pedophile", it's used mistakenly by most. Correct usage of it refers to people who are attracted ONLY to pre-pubecent individuals (usually under 12 or 13). Since most involved here in the FLDS are teens, there's a whole different PC word/lable for them... but they aren't pedophiles (nor is someone who is also attracted to adults).
Legal Parents Where? | 1:21 p.m. June 2, 2008
How can these people pick up these children.......... They can't even
produce a birth cirtificate proving their births, parents, age, where, or
anything. This is all done in a total unprofessional or legal stadard. If
those mothers would tell who the fathers where, then the welfare system could
make them support the children. Therefore the welfare system would not be out
millions. This whole deal cetainly has got this system figured out. What
happened to being honest and accountable for your actions. The parents
aren't so the children will learn the same additudes. Yes I feel bad for
the children, but, they will simple grow up and do the same thing in the next
generation. The fathers, are shameful to put their wives and children through
this. They are the ones who should be punished.
FLDS Sex Compound | 1:22 p.m. June 2, 2008
Polygamy is a controlled environment, and a practice done by over sexed men. The
FLDS men do not respect the woman in their compound, or they would be supporting
them financially instead of sending them out to collect food stamps from the
government... The whole FLDS is (NOT RELIGION) but pure deliberate evil. And
using GOD makes the FLDS even more repulsive and EVIL.
Lost Boys | 1:25 p.m. June 2, 2008
Too bad their mothers refused to fight for them.
Who did the kid's hair? | 1:35 p.m. June 2, 2008
I'm amazed. How did Texas find foster mothers who knew how to do the funky
FLDS hair-due? Or has the little girl in the picture not had her hair done in
the past 40 days?
David S. | 1:41 p.m. June 2, 2008
This is awesome, it's a great day in America!
Atlman | 1:45 p.m. June 2, 2008
RE:Steve @ 12:57
I stand corrected. I should have been very specific in that I was referring to the LDS who were defending the FLDS. Thank you for pointing this out. I realize that broad stroke assumptions are wrong. However, my comments still stand regarding LDS and FLDS affiliation problems. Thank you.
I stand corrected. I should have been very specific in that I was referring to the LDS who were defending the FLDS. Thank you for pointing this out. I realize that broad stroke assumptions are wrong. However, my comments still stand regarding LDS and FLDS affiliation problems. Thank you.
Re: Pedophilia | 1:49 p.m. June 2, 2008
"Correct usage of it refers to people who are attracted ONLY to
pre-pubecent individuals (usually under 12 or 13)."
Legal definition of pedophilia: an obsession with children as sex objects. Overt acts including molesting children.
Legal definition of child: a person 14 years and under.
Whether the forced underage marriages are with children or youth, if the girls are under the age of consent, it's still statutory rape, whether they're spiritually married or not.
The FLDS men are marrying these child brides for the specific purpose of fathering children with them.
Anyone who thinks that they would marry these young girls and then wait until they reach the age of consent to consumate the marriage is simply not willing to face reality.
Legal definition of pedophilia: an obsession with children as sex objects. Overt acts including molesting children.
Legal definition of child: a person 14 years and under.
Whether the forced underage marriages are with children or youth, if the girls are under the age of consent, it's still statutory rape, whether they're spiritually married or not.
The FLDS men are marrying these child brides for the specific purpose of fathering children with them.
Anyone who thinks that they would marry these young girls and then wait until they reach the age of consent to consumate the marriage is simply not willing to face reality.
John | 1:51 p.m. June 2, 2008
If no abuse is happening how are girls under the age of 18 having babies? Did
anyone ask them if they wanted to have kids with their relatives?
Age guessing not good evidence | 1:53 p.m. June 2, 2008
The statement at the end of the article caught my eye...
[Texas child welfare authorities had claimed to have as many as 31 pregnant or underage mothers in custody. They were young women the FLDS insisted were adults. On Sunday, Shockley told the Deseret News that the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services has declared all but four or five to be adults"].
And now that we know that only 4 or 5 of the original 31 they claimed were underage are still under CPS suspicion And CPS wants us to continue to trust their guess work? CPS hasn't shown a great ability to guess people's age if you ask me.
[Texas child welfare authorities had claimed to have as many as 31 pregnant or underage mothers in custody. They were young women the FLDS insisted were adults. On Sunday, Shockley told the Deseret News that the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services has declared all but four or five to be adults"].
And now that we know that only 4 or 5 of the original 31 they claimed were underage are still under CPS suspicion And CPS wants us to continue to trust their guess work? CPS hasn't shown a great ability to guess people's age if you ask me.
No Abuse??? | 2:04 p.m. June 2, 2008
"Natalie E. Malonis, a guardian ad litem who represents a child who is also
a mother in state custody, has filed an an emergency motion to prevent the
return of her client, saying the court's order will cause "immediate
and irreparable harm to the physical safety and welfare of the child."
The threat, she said, is because the female is an identified victim of sexual abuse."
No evidence of abuse???
Let the denials begin...
And, while you're at it, add Malonis to the ever growing list of liars.
The threat, she said, is because the female is an identified victim of sexual abuse."
No evidence of abuse???
Let the denials begin...
And, while you're at it, add Malonis to the ever growing list of liars.
Texas Mom | 2:33 p.m. June 2, 2008
First of all, the way I read it, Natalie Malonis represents "a child who is
also a mother". Could it be the little girl doesn't want to go home?
Good job for this guardian standing up for her "child client".
Second, I keep hearing there is no evidence of abuse. There are 450 children here. How many young parents did you see on TV, newspapers, etc in the past few months since this whole thing took place? I only saw older women and very few men. How did all of these children get here?
Abuse is not always visible. It seems like many of you are looking for bruises, broken bones, etc. Speaking from personal experience, sexual and mental abuse is not visible. It will be buried under the happy face for many years, sometimes never to be brought up again.
A mother or father allowing their underage daughter to be married to an older man and have sexual relations and children through him is abuse. A mother or father kicking their teenage son out because he is a threat to the old men who want the little girls for themselves.
Second, I keep hearing there is no evidence of abuse. There are 450 children here. How many young parents did you see on TV, newspapers, etc in the past few months since this whole thing took place? I only saw older women and very few men. How did all of these children get here?
Abuse is not always visible. It seems like many of you are looking for bruises, broken bones, etc. Speaking from personal experience, sexual and mental abuse is not visible. It will be buried under the happy face for many years, sometimes never to be brought up again.
A mother or father allowing their underage daughter to be married to an older man and have sexual relations and children through him is abuse. A mother or father kicking their teenage son out because he is a threat to the old men who want the little girls for themselves.
zxcvbnm | 2:39 p.m. June 2, 2008
Now we will begin to hear of the CPS interrogation tactic as the children talk of their confinement.
We see no photos of the quilts or bikes given to the children by concerned groups......is it because the children resent their treatment and want no reminders of it, or just that the goodies weren't loaded in the car before the photos were taken.
Now we will see just how the CPS deals with the FLDS and a spotlight will be on their every move. CPS Lawers are already trying to ammend conditions for some families.
Will CPS have a case worker rotation designed so that someone is on the ranch "investigating" 12 hrs. per day.
Now the real game begins. The stall worked for 2 months......now the nitpicking phase will follow.
Scam artists | 2:47 p.m. June 2, 2008
To Texas Mom
Do think anyone the FLDS men would admit to sex abuse of a child if they had to face going to prison? NOT ON YOUR LIFE! The FLDS men wouldn't want to end up like their phony FLDS prophet warren jeffs? FLDS are liars and believe in ripping off the government. FLDS believe God almighty told them to go commit whoredoms and perversions, and all manner of abominations under the cloak of religion.
Do think anyone the FLDS men would admit to sex abuse of a child if they had to face going to prison? NOT ON YOUR LIFE! The FLDS men wouldn't want to end up like their phony FLDS prophet warren jeffs? FLDS are liars and believe in ripping off the government. FLDS believe God almighty told them to go commit whoredoms and perversions, and all manner of abominations under the cloak of religion.
Oh brother texas mom | 2:47 p.m. June 2, 2008
The guardian ad litem is only trying to stall. Perhaps, as just happened
another 29 year old will be ruled an adult. What you see on t.v. is only what
the media wants to represent. Odd that you don't understand propaganda
since you feed into it. Cps tried listing physical abuse until it was obvious
that wasn't the case. And why do you insist on believing that underage
girls marrying old men is the norm? Nothing supports such except your own
fantasy. Girls are mostly marrying men their own age. They aren't though,
getting pregnant at the rate of other Texans. In TX a 14 years olds get
pregnant every 10 hours.
The reason they moved where they did off the ranch was to be closer to their kids and are now forced to stay there per the order or lose the kids. Their religion isn't an issue, but obeying the legal requirement is the rule.
The reason they moved where they did off the ranch was to be closer to their kids and are now forced to stay there per the order or lose the kids. Their religion isn't an issue, but obeying the legal requirement is the rule.
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Eric Gay, Associated Press
Nancy Dockstader, left, a member of the FLDS Church, embraces her daughter Amy, 9, after they were reunited at the Baptist Children's Home Ministries Youth Camp near Lulling, Texas, Monday.
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The greatest demonstration of good has been the mother's devotion to their children!
They demonstrated one of greatest virtues of a mother,the willingness to fight for a child.
On the other hand, their practices of lies, part truths and a willingness to not cooperate with authoritiess came to a crashing end.
The abusers of the welfare system did not get their way, nor did CPS, nor did the attorneys. A classic compromise was struck. However, Texas authorities have all the infomation they need to pursue further individual investigations. They have accomplished their objectives!
In the meantime, the FLDS will continue to develop further skills to manipulate the welfare system, have more spiritual wives, more wonderful innocent children and lives scarred by a misdirected lifestyle.
Let's hope they do not flee the state of Texas as they would be pounced on like a cat on a mouse after all of this publicity. Perhaps a muslim country would accept their multiple wife lifestyle, but the lies would have to stop.