Reader comments
FLDS official: No more underage marriages; reunifications begin with the children
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L. G. KIRKPATRICK | 8:19 a.m. June 2, 2008
Thank You, Lord. Thank you, Judge Walther. Thank you, attorneys for the FLDS,
for your fine work and for standing your ground. Thank you, FLDS, for your faith
and courage in eduring these outrages. Thank you, Ben Winslow, for your
fantastic reporting job in this whole mess.
Return the Kids | 8:21 a.m. June 2, 2008
Remove the abusing dads.
mensem | 8:27 a.m. June 2, 2008
I still think the judge should be removed....
Comments continue below
Bruce | 8:31 a.m. June 2, 2008
It will be a wonderful thing for those children to hug their moms & dads.
Thank you FLDS for your example of courage and dignity in the face of tyranny.
May God bless you all.
Thank you FLDS for your example of courage and dignity in the face of tyranny.
May God bless you all.
bilbo | 8:32 a.m. June 2, 2008
Texas....can you spell BANKRUPTCY?
refusing to remove/arrest molesting fathers is a true miscarriage of justice.
refusing to remove/arrest molesting fathers is a true miscarriage of justice.
Teacher and Dad | 8:37 a.m. June 2, 2008
Thank you God.
Think!!!! | 8:40 a.m. June 2, 2008
I'm grateful the children can start their healing process. I pray that
people will stop judging these people, even the fathers and Warren Jeffs until
they know all the facts and they probably won't get them unless they care
more.
VA gal | 8:40 a.m. June 2, 2008
Thank heavens. This has been a travesty from the beginning. Now they will do
what they should have done 2 months ago look into child abuse and not cause mass
trauma of children based on a few allegations.
Just a Mom | 8:43 a.m. June 2, 2008
Are we remembering that most of these parents have not been found guilty of
anything, and that their illegally stolen children have been found to be healthy
and unabused except possibly for five girls ( if they aren't actually 20+
year olds that the CPS is just claiming are children . . .)?
I'm glad the parents are getting their children back, but someone needs to look into why the court can require "parenting classes" for people who have, if anything, been proven innocent by the failure of this witch-hunt to find anything against the vast majority.
(BTW, I'm not FLDS and don't understand why anyone is, but I believe in laws that are designed to protect children and parents from governmental abuse.)
I'm glad the parents are getting their children back, but someone needs to look into why the court can require "parenting classes" for people who have, if anything, been proven innocent by the failure of this witch-hunt to find anything against the vast majority.
(BTW, I'm not FLDS and don't understand why anyone is, but I believe in laws that are designed to protect children and parents from governmental abuse.)
Re: Walther | 8:44 a.m. June 2, 2008
This judge has no business interpreting any law or arbitrating any agreement.
Google gopetition walther.
Anonymous | 8:46 a.m. June 2, 2008
Are you kidding me? You are glad those kids are going home to be groomed for
more abuse?
Wow!
Come to dixie, get to know these people.. Your mind would change..
Texas did the right thing..
Wow!
Come to dixie, get to know these people.. Your mind would change..
Texas did the right thing..
Hopeful | 8:46 a.m. June 2, 2008
Thank you, Judge, for FINALLY following the law.
Now, if the FLDS will abide by conditions they have agreed to, perhaps the truth will be established and genuine abuses will cease. And, hopefully, the trying of this issue by accusations in the media will cease, too.
And, hopefully, the FLDS will look seriously at their doctrine and determine the difference between doctrine and practices and traditions that may have been instituted by men--some of them highly questionable.
Now, if the FLDS will abide by conditions they have agreed to, perhaps the truth will be established and genuine abuses will cease. And, hopefully, the trying of this issue by accusations in the media will cease, too.
And, hopefully, the FLDS will look seriously at their doctrine and determine the difference between doctrine and practices and traditions that may have been instituted by men--some of them highly questionable.
Re: Bilbo | 8:50 a.m. June 2, 2008
Fathers molesting their kids. That's one false accusation that not even the
trigger-happy Texas CPS have made.
To Bruce | 8:53 a.m. June 2, 2008
Bruce, one thing for sure we can be thankful for... Warren Jeffs wont be hugging
these children !
Freedom Mann | 8:54 a.m. June 2, 2008
bibo
After two months there are still NO SPECIFIC CHARGES of ANYTHING against ANYONE; the authorities removed a lot of stuff from the YFZ ranch not to mention that they claim to have had an informant in there for the last FOUR YEARS.
There has been no charges, no grand jury indictments; NOTHING.
It's just a bunch of bigots making life miserable for some small, weird sect WHO HAVE A RIGHT TO BE THIS WAY.
Yeah, let's all go back to the claim tha the the removed children had a rate of broken bones 18 times higher than the national average; that "tidbit" was released to the press to great fanfare; it never went anywhere because it was a LIE!
The pregnancy rate of very young girls on the ranch was another beaut; even if it was so, it doesn't mean that 50 year old men are the fathers and it's still WAY lower than just about any other group you can statistically profile.
This whole mess is precisely what it is, a witch hunt, promulgated by people who don't like the FLDS and want to use temporal authority to punish them simply because of what they are.
After two months there are still NO SPECIFIC CHARGES of ANYTHING against ANYONE; the authorities removed a lot of stuff from the YFZ ranch not to mention that they claim to have had an informant in there for the last FOUR YEARS.
There has been no charges, no grand jury indictments; NOTHING.
It's just a bunch of bigots making life miserable for some small, weird sect WHO HAVE A RIGHT TO BE THIS WAY.
Yeah, let's all go back to the claim tha the the removed children had a rate of broken bones 18 times higher than the national average; that "tidbit" was released to the press to great fanfare; it never went anywhere because it was a LIE!
The pregnancy rate of very young girls on the ranch was another beaut; even if it was so, it doesn't mean that 50 year old men are the fathers and it's still WAY lower than just about any other group you can statistically profile.
This whole mess is precisely what it is, a witch hunt, promulgated by people who don't like the FLDS and want to use temporal authority to punish them simply because of what they are.
Ray | 8:59 a.m. June 2, 2008
This isn't over by a long shot, but this is the first actual step in the
right direction that we have seen since the whole debaucle started in April!
of course | 9:03 a.m. June 2, 2008
Of course she signed on. Based on the Supreme Court ruling, those were the only
conditions she was permitted to request.
Patience "Mann" | 9:03 a.m. June 2, 2008
The charges are coming and some of Warren's child-raping buddies will be
joining him in the Texas Bars and Grills.
NOBODY has a RIGHT to be a pedophile!!!
NOBODY has a RIGHT to be a pedophile!!!
Iamsure | 9:05 a.m. June 2, 2008
I grew up in orphanages, foster homes and eventually on the street, all of which
were terrible environments for child. I was molested, beat and emotionally
abuses. I am not a member of the FLDS faith, but this is America, we are
guaranteed freedom of religion, and the countenance of those children and
mothers was evident that they were happy and healthy. I would bet we are not
going to hear stories of attempts to convert the children to protestant faiths
and unfortunately, more serious abuse.
re: just a mom | 9:05 a.m. June 2, 2008
Thanks, great comment. Totally agree!
hey anonymous | 9:07 a.m. June 2, 2008
"Groomed for more abuse?" Show evidence that any abuse even took
place. It seems two courts ruled that no such evidence exists.
Momotaro | 9:10 a.m. June 2, 2008
Perhaps things will get better now. It would be a wonderful world if CPS acts on
actual evidence, instead of hoax phone calls and emotions. It would be wonderful
if this experience teaches the FLDS to avoid any hint of abuse.
to hopeful | 9:10 a.m. June 2, 2008
How can abuse cease when after 40+ days in custody, no evidence was found for
abuse?
ediddy | 9:22 a.m. June 2, 2008
I'm glad to see someone pull the reins on this run amok horse, but the
comment that they can pick up their children from foster carem makes me roll my
eyes. As a parent under such abusive mandates, i would be glad to go get my
kids, but CPS transported them all over the state of Texas. Why should the
parents pay the cost to go get them. CPS had Baptist busses waiting when they
took the children. Where are those busses now? This is and always has been about
religious bigotry under state sanction. Texas created this mess. They ought to
have the decency to make it right. Judge Walther is a pathetic example of small
town cronuism gone bad.
Rights Still Violated | 9:25 a.m. June 2, 2008
They are still doing classes for the "guilty" and signed away 4th
Admendment Rights--all of them..not just the abusers. CPS will try to get them
one at a time now.. This is NOT over..
thompson | 9:31 a.m. June 2, 2008
"It would be wonderful if this experience teaches the FLDS to avoid any
hint of abuse."
Why is that exactly? So we can all like them more?
What I've learned from this experience is that getting involved with CPS is a nightmare. I would never contact CPS if I had suspicions of abuse. I would only act if I were 100 percent positive.
Why is that exactly? So we can all like them more?
What I've learned from this experience is that getting involved with CPS is a nightmare. I would never contact CPS if I had suspicions of abuse. I would only act if I were 100 percent positive.
Anonymous | 9:32 a.m. June 2, 2008
CPS has too much power in America. All it takes is one phone call from me
accusing my neighbor of abusing their child and zap, kids are taken away until
an inspection is done. However, in this case, CPS was correct in doing what it
did.
Petition | 9:34 a.m. June 2, 2008
Thank you! We signed! Thank you Re: Walther
Sokol | 9:36 a.m. June 2, 2008
Stop blaming fathers again...Those of you who make
these false allegations are guilty of fraud...not
one shred of evidence has been producted that
provides conclusive proof of the fathers being guilty
of any abuse. I know some of you may have won
custody of your kids by makiing these untrue claims,
lets not do that here.
these false allegations are guilty of fraud...not
one shred of evidence has been producted that
provides conclusive proof of the fathers being guilty
of any abuse. I know some of you may have won
custody of your kids by makiing these untrue claims,
lets not do that here.
RandallFox | 9:40 a.m. June 2, 2008
From the story: "Attorneys for FLDS two legal aid firms who successfully
petitioned the Third Court of Appeals arrived at the courthouse at 8:15 a.m. and
submitted their own order for the judge to sign. But Walther had already come up
with her own plan, a slightly modified version of the proposal she made
Friday"
From what I am reading, it appears that the judge signed an order other than the one agreed to by the parents. Lots of legal implications, the most important being that the restrictions imposed by the order can be appealed by the parents. In my opinion, such an appeal would be succesful, and we would see a repeat of direction to vacate and conditional mandamus by the Appeals court.
From what I am reading, it appears that the judge signed an order other than the one agreed to by the parents. Lots of legal implications, the most important being that the restrictions imposed by the order can be appealed by the parents. In my opinion, such an appeal would be succesful, and we would see a repeat of direction to vacate and conditional mandamus by the Appeals court.
Re: anon | 9:39 a.m. June 2, 2008
I have come to dixie,and got to know these people.. My mind has changed. It was
for the better thank you.
Dal | 9:42 a.m. June 2, 2008
CPS has got all the evidence it needs to nail these Dads to the wall with the
DNA. They haven't even touched the surface of the evidence. It's just
a matter of time before this case gets really nasty.
Old Geezer in Vegas | 9:44 a.m. June 2, 2008
I still want to see the first criminal trial for any of these people.
I�m sure that the attorneys have investigators looking in
to the relationships between the main characters behind the raid including the
judge, sheriff, CPS, the hot line, Rozita Swinton, Flora Jessop, Carolyn Jessop
and any others that may be involved, including the local main stream churches.
This raid was based on �hearsay� evidence given by a know adversary of the FLDS. The raid was conducted even after the sheriff knew that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and the phone call was probably a hoax. The state authorities made no secret of the fact that they changed their marriage laws to go after the FLDS and the sheriff has made it known in many interview he�s been after them for four years and this call was all he needed to get a warrant for the raid.
The return of the children may only be their first victory and if it�s proven that the raid was an illegal act by the authorities based on faulty evidence, heads will roll in the Texas justice system.
This raid was based on �hearsay� evidence given by a know adversary of the FLDS. The raid was conducted even after the sheriff knew that Dale Barlow was in Arizona and the phone call was probably a hoax. The state authorities made no secret of the fact that they changed their marriage laws to go after the FLDS and the sheriff has made it known in many interview he�s been after them for four years and this call was all he needed to get a warrant for the raid.
The return of the children may only be their first victory and if it�s proven that the raid was an illegal act by the authorities based on faulty evidence, heads will roll in the Texas justice system.
Southern Utah Resident | 9:48 a.m. June 2, 2008
CPS FAILED THESE KIDS! As someone that knows these people very well I can say
that these children will be brainwashed with Warren Jeffs rhetoric and the young
girls will likely be "assigned" an old man for a husband and then
RAPED (remember the picture of Warren the pervert and his 12 year old victim).
The young boys can look forward to a 4th grade education before being "called" to do slave labor construction jobs. The boys that put up any resistance will be left homeless on the streets of Southern Utah.
These are disgraceful people.
The young boys can look forward to a 4th grade education before being "called" to do slave labor construction jobs. The boys that put up any resistance will be left homeless on the streets of Southern Utah.
These are disgraceful people.
Re: Sokol | 9:51 a.m. June 2, 2008
Allegation: a positive assertion; specifically : a statement by a party to a
legal action of what the party undertakes to prove.
By definition, an allegation is not a proven fact.
But there is plenty of evidence -- eyewitness accounts, photographs, Warren Jeffs' conviction for accomplice rape -- that suggests that forced underage marriage is both taught and practiced by the FLDS.
By definition, an allegation is not a proven fact.
But there is plenty of evidence -- eyewitness accounts, photographs, Warren Jeffs' conviction for accomplice rape -- that suggests that forced underage marriage is both taught and practiced by the FLDS.
Jim in Reno | 9:54 a.m. June 2, 2008
Jeffs will be released; because the Jessopp Girls et.al. lied and, perjured
themselves; They and, CPS will be sued; Walters Removed and, Swinton will be
jailed. The Texas Rangers will re assign the Ranger Captain and, the Sheriff is
toast... Too bad that Nacy Grace won't be disbarred and, CNN, Fox etc.
won't be embarrassed but, not bad for a day's work.
I'm pleased...
I love the U.S.A. and, our "Checks and, Balances form of Government!
Sometimes it takes time to receive justice but, it does arrive in the "Good O'l U.S.A.!
I'm pleased...
I love the U.S.A. and, our "Checks and, Balances form of Government!
Sometimes it takes time to receive justice but, it does arrive in the "Good O'l U.S.A.!
B.S. | 9:56 a.m. June 2, 2008
This is B.S.
The order requires parenting classes, cooperation in an ongoing child abuse investigation including home visits and interviews between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m.
The order requires all children involved in the custody case to remain in Texas unless they get prior approval from the court. Parents can pick up their children from foster care facilities but must sign affidavits and be photographed.
The order requires parenting classes, cooperation in an ongoing child abuse investigation including home visits and interviews between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m.
The order requires all children involved in the custody case to remain in Texas unless they get prior approval from the court. Parents can pick up their children from foster care facilities but must sign affidavits and be photographed.
Re; S. Utah Resident | 9:58 a.m. June 2, 2008
Unfortunately, the real abusers will go unpunished.
It's easy for adults to hide abuse when it's done in a closed society where the children are kept as prisoners from the "evil" outsiders.
It's easy for adults to hide abuse when it's done in a closed society where the children are kept as prisoners from the "evil" outsiders.
Re: Jim in Reno | 10:10 a.m. June 2, 2008
And the lies and hysteria from the FLDS P.R. machine continue rolling.
It's sad that the FLDS don't understand that many of their "religious" practices involve child rape and child slave labor.
Upton Sinclair would be proud.
Not!
It's sad that the FLDS don't understand that many of their "religious" practices involve child rape and child slave labor.
Upton Sinclair would be proud.
Not!
HAPPY AND SAD | 10:10 a.m. June 2, 2008
Happy for the Children this was a "TEXAS ROUNDUP"
CPS needs to go after the guilty and throw them in Jail with Jeffs.
FLDS STOP THIS PRACTICE OF UNDERAGE MARRAGE !
CPS needs to go after the guilty and throw them in Jail with Jeffs.
FLDS STOP THIS PRACTICE OF UNDERAGE MARRAGE !
Outraged Baptist | 10:23 a.m. June 2, 2008
This is only a partial victory for these families.
What would Thomas Jefferson have to say about this: "Second, the court's order ensures that the state's investigation of abuse and neglect continues with strong provisions in place to prevent interference and ensure compliance by the parents." Insure compliance when they have not been charged with breaking any law. Forcing them to see Psychotherapists who are the high priests of secular humanism.
Wake up Americans! Or do none of us value individual liberty?
I'm no fan of FDLS but do we really want a police state?
What would Thomas Jefferson have to say about this: "Second, the court's order ensures that the state's investigation of abuse and neglect continues with strong provisions in place to prevent interference and ensure compliance by the parents." Insure compliance when they have not been charged with breaking any law. Forcing them to see Psychotherapists who are the high priests of secular humanism.
Wake up Americans! Or do none of us value individual liberty?
I'm no fan of FDLS but do we really want a police state?
Foolish People | 10:25 a.m. June 2, 2008
Foolish CPS, Foolish Judge, Foolish religion, and Foolish FLDS. You people are
tiresome! Some out there need to get life.
Old Geezer in Vegas | 10:28 a.m. June 2, 2008
I know that many people on this board think that this raid was legal and quote
various Texas authorities that are trying to save their jobs. No, this raid was
based on an attack on the FLDS religion!!! The judge said that the reason the
children were being held was because of �their pervasive
belief system�. (i.e. �Religious
Beliefs�!!!)
Based on what I�ve posted before and the fact that I�ve never heard of any judge in the USA that has been so brazen as to order a wholesale confiscation of all legal papers, pictures, computers, cell phones and church records of a community or the entering of a house of worship at gunpoint for the same reason. The judge kept calling the ranch �one household�. No, it was a private community with separate houses and the temple. (i.e. �A HOUSE OF WORSHIP�) They sure didn�t do this with the Catholics where there were many proven cases of abuse!!!
Disagree? Show me one other instance than this that it�s been done in the United States!!!
Texas will loose this big time but if they�d done it right, I think that they could have prosecuted some of the FLDS men!
Based on what I�ve posted before and the fact that I�ve never heard of any judge in the USA that has been so brazen as to order a wholesale confiscation of all legal papers, pictures, computers, cell phones and church records of a community or the entering of a house of worship at gunpoint for the same reason. The judge kept calling the ranch �one household�. No, it was a private community with separate houses and the temple. (i.e. �A HOUSE OF WORSHIP�) They sure didn�t do this with the Catholics where there were many proven cases of abuse!!!
Disagree? Show me one other instance than this that it�s been done in the United States!!!
Texas will loose this big time but if they�d done it right, I think that they could have prosecuted some of the FLDS men!
deaf ears | 10:31 a.m. June 2, 2008
Texas CPS Gestapo wins! More blackmail conditions to get children freed from
state custody. This is not exactly the outcome CPS wanted but it is almost as
good. Remain in Texas by court order, continued unwarranted search and seizures,
forced parenting classes, forced medical exams, stealing evidence for future
prosecutions, near bankruptcy of the parents and blackmail. Time to get the kids
back then sue Texas for deprivation of civil rights. Walther's court
ordered return conditions could be overturned in Federal court as
unconstitutional.
HeatherD | 10:45 a.m. June 2, 2008
ediddy is right. Where *are* the Baptist buses that were so eager to help out?
transplant | 10:56 a.m. June 2, 2008
Local Houston station reporting that 18 mothers are choosing not to return to
the ranch. They must be adults if they are able to make this choice for
themselves. How is it that this is being left out of the articles and reports?
Where are they going?
spiritree | 11:01 a.m. June 2, 2008
Texas will return children under conditions? Do all parents in Texas get to
have there kids only if they meet some made up conditions? And why are they not
bring them back. Why do they have to pick them up. If they can take them they
should at the very least take them home to their parents. Same on Texas
continues!
Anonymous | 11:02 a.m. June 2, 2008
No way are the FLDS going to go along with the parenting classes and visits.
They are going to leave Texas as soon as possible. And I think that's what
Texas wants, get them out of their hair and someone else's problem to deal
with.
Oklahoma Mormon | 11:03 a.m. June 2, 2008
Too many strings attached by a crooked judge and bleeding heart liberals. No
case of abuse was ever uncovered and the kids should be returned post haste and
the lawyers need to start lawsuits for violations of civil rights. Read between
the lines on this.
deaf ears | 11:11 a.m. June 2, 2008
If any good has come from the Texas CPS kidnapping of over 450 FLDS children and
denial of their civil rights, it is the exposure of how criminal State CPS
agencies operate. If we as Americans value our families and our freedoms to
raise children as we see fit why should we have to look over our shoulders for
CPS coming to take our children away because someone disagrees with our
parenting methods or beliefs! Morality police, social engineers, agenda driven
state agencies have no role in a free society. There are already laws in place
to handle physically abusive parents without the aid of State CPS agencies.
It�s time to review CPS role in our so called free society
and give them the boot.
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Eric Gay, Associated Press
Nancy Dockstader, left, a member of the FLDS Church, embraces her daughter Amy, 9, after they were reunited at the Baptist Children's Home Ministries Youth Camp near Lulling, Texas, Monday.
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