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MormonTimes.com: Raiders of the lost Book of Mormon DNA
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Golden Book | 11:00 p.m. May 30, 2008
Hey "Funny," I'm glad you're cheaply entertained by us
simpletons. But, seriously, as hilarious is it may sound to you, once you cross
the line into faith and miracles and the power of God, you have to be open to
crazy things, like changing DNA. I'm not saying he changed the DNA. How do
I know? All I know is that once you believe that Moses split the Red Sea and
turned a river to blood, that Jesus somehow cleansed mankind and made it
possible to have people rise from the dead, well, it's not that much
farther to leap to changing DNA, or hiding it. I mean, The plates were hidden.
And angels came to visit Joseph Smith. So, yeah, let the record show that I
think it's pretty lame you poked fun at Roy. No matter what you believe.
Elephants | 11:11 p.m. May 30, 2008
If elephants (mammoths, mastodons) once lived in Alaska, it is possible
elephants lived in North America. Just because it may seem far fetched today,
doesn't mean it wasn't possible back then.
Also, I sometimes think people don't give those of old enough credit for the things they were capable of doing. For example, pyramids, Stone Henge, etc. No one knows how these people did these things, but some how they did them. Maybe those of old were capable of traveling the seas as well as anyone during the 1700s. There is no reason that there couldn't have been a great ancient civilization in North America. How much knowledge did we loose during the dark ages? If anything the existence of the American continent seemed to have been forgotten and then rediscovered sometime later. The Book of Mormon gives some ideas of what was here.
When the Savior, Jesus Christ was on the earth how many recognized him to be the Messiah? Some did and some didn't. How often did people of old listened to or rejected his prophets? How often today do people listen to or reject his prophets? I guess, today isn't much different from back then.
Also, I sometimes think people don't give those of old enough credit for the things they were capable of doing. For example, pyramids, Stone Henge, etc. No one knows how these people did these things, but some how they did them. Maybe those of old were capable of traveling the seas as well as anyone during the 1700s. There is no reason that there couldn't have been a great ancient civilization in North America. How much knowledge did we loose during the dark ages? If anything the existence of the American continent seemed to have been forgotten and then rediscovered sometime later. The Book of Mormon gives some ideas of what was here.
When the Savior, Jesus Christ was on the earth how many recognized him to be the Messiah? Some did and some didn't. How often did people of old listened to or rejected his prophets? How often today do people listen to or reject his prophets? I guess, today isn't much different from back then.
The Book is True! | 11:11 p.m. May 30, 2008
The Church of Jesus Christ asked a Dr Sami Hanna and his colleague to translate
the Book of Mormon back into Egyptian which it proposes it was originally
written. Dr. Sami Hanna is a friend of my father's, my father asked him to
speak for a church fireside. Dr. Sami Hanna said it was completely Egyptian!
Now, how could Joseph Smith have known Egyptian? He couldn't! Sorry for
all you who don't believe it, the Book of Mormon is 100% true. P.S. They
found the land Bountiful the Book of Mormon talks about and a natural Bellows.
It was completely unknown to the countries leaders. How it was found is two men
followed the Book of Mormon route Lehi and Nephi took and were led to the Land
Bountiful.
Also, Thor Hyerdahl unknowingly proved the book true by his Kon Tiki expeditions.
Lehi's family are from the lineage of Joseph (the coat of many colors Joseph) through the lineage of Manasseh. They've been barking up the wrong tree linking them to Hebrews. Joseph married an Egyptian gal. Ephraim and Manasseh are part Egyptian. Link them to Egyptians! If that turns out to be Asian, there's your link! The Book's True!
Also, Thor Hyerdahl unknowingly proved the book true by his Kon Tiki expeditions.
Lehi's family are from the lineage of Joseph (the coat of many colors Joseph) through the lineage of Manasseh. They've been barking up the wrong tree linking them to Hebrews. Joseph married an Egyptian gal. Ephraim and Manasseh are part Egyptian. Link them to Egyptians! If that turns out to be Asian, there's your link! The Book's True!
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 11:26 p.m. May 30, 2008
They actually found an elephant in Fairview Canyon, Fairview, Utah. They have a
replica of the original in the Fairview museum. My husbands family has pictures
of the dig.
Believing Scientist | 12:26 a.m. May 31, 2008
As a believing scientist (retired), it occurs to me that religion (LDS
specifically-yes,I am biased) is years ahead of science in discovering truth.
For example, the word of wisdom revelation of 1833. It has taken science 175
years (and still counting), to catch up with the science of this revelation.
There are many, many other religious truths taught today that science will
someday "discover". In the meantime, as good as it is, modern science
is a poor subsitute for religious knowledge because we can't afford to wait
for science to catch up. DNA research will someday catch up too, and when it
does, most of us will not be suprised at all. In the meantime, we should be
cautious in assuming that what science teaches us today, will be true tomorrow,
because theories always change but doctrine never does. I put my faith in the
latter but enjoy the former too.
Proof | 1:50 a.m. May 31, 2008
Claims have been made that it is easy to believe the bible to be true because of
the many archaeic finds. Well, why do so many people interpret the Bible so
differently, how many different religions are there based on the Bible.
On the other hand, the Lord has said:
"if you will ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if these things are not true, and if ye shall ask with a sincere hear, with real intent, having FAITH in Christ, behold he shall manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost."
Narrows down the unlimited amount of churches doesn't it..
The Bof M was never meant to be proven. The knowledge only comes by one way shown above.
And to think man in his finite wisdom can hope to out wit, through DNA, through Archeology,etc.. a infinite God who knows all things is at best laughable.
Surely the saying "my thoughts are not your thoughts" is applicable.
On the other hand, the Lord has said:
"if you will ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ if these things are not true, and if ye shall ask with a sincere hear, with real intent, having FAITH in Christ, behold he shall manifest the truth of it unto you by the power of the Holy Ghost."
Narrows down the unlimited amount of churches doesn't it..
The Bof M was never meant to be proven. The knowledge only comes by one way shown above.
And to think man in his finite wisdom can hope to out wit, through DNA, through Archeology,etc.. a infinite God who knows all things is at best laughable.
Surely the saying "my thoughts are not your thoughts" is applicable.
Duff | 4:35 a.m. May 31, 2008
"God could have made changes to DNA". The length some people will go
to believe an un believable story is just amazing.
Willard | 6:52 a.m. May 31, 2008
Just reading the postings of the simple minded fanatics shows the exploitation
and brain washing that religion and church inflict on vulnerable individuals and
communities. It is a sin; it is like child abuse.
Brother Chuck Schroeder | 7:03 a.m. May 31, 2008
Gold Plates - Plates made of gold upon which the ancient American prophet Mormon
abridged the record of his people. Joseph Smith translated the writings on the
gold plates into what became the Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus
Christ. When some people interested in the Book of Mormon ask to see the golden
plates, they are disappointed to learn, that Joseph returned them to Moroni,
than what did Moroni do with them?. Neither Joseph nor any of the witnesses said
that the ancient record was made from solid gold. Nor did they use the term
�gold plates� or
�plates of gold.� All Joseph said is
that they had �the appearance of
gold.�
Interested reader | 7:28 a.m. May 31, 2008
While I neither condemn nor defend Mr. Meldrum's work, it might be wise to
review his actual presentation before making conclusive comments and judgements.
Partiularly if you espouse the valid position of following scientific research
methods. Judging the man and his works by a newspaper article that he neither
wrote nor edited isn't the most scientific or objective approach and may
represent a personal bias of your own. In spite of the conclusions you come to,
Mr. Meldrum has quoted a significant amount of research by competent scientific
sources.
Craig | 7:52 a.m. May 31, 2008
The critics of the BOM come up with all sorts of theories of how Joseph Smith
produced the BOM by simply dictating it to other more educated scribes.
The say it would be easy for Jospeh Smith to have created the BOM, he had years to think it all up.
He had such a wonderful imagination and could spin a yarn from here to Timbuktu.
He probaly had friends that had books and maps that he could consult to fasion his story after.
Ect, ect.
But for all the explination for how Joseph Smith created/wrote the BOM I have yet to see a demonstration of it.
Do the critics of the BOM not have educations, maps, friends, imaginations, 170 years and all the modern day knowledge to show us LDS HOW the BOM was writen?
Instead of talking about it, show us, teach us, provide a duplicate copy of a similar book.
I notice they never address the hows of where did the Doctrine and Covenants come from, was that book plagerized too?
It's easy to sit back and critisize, but the proof is in the doing.
Joseph did his work, now do yours.
The say it would be easy for Jospeh Smith to have created the BOM, he had years to think it all up.
He had such a wonderful imagination and could spin a yarn from here to Timbuktu.
He probaly had friends that had books and maps that he could consult to fasion his story after.
Ect, ect.
But for all the explination for how Joseph Smith created/wrote the BOM I have yet to see a demonstration of it.
Do the critics of the BOM not have educations, maps, friends, imaginations, 170 years and all the modern day knowledge to show us LDS HOW the BOM was writen?
Instead of talking about it, show us, teach us, provide a duplicate copy of a similar book.
I notice they never address the hows of where did the Doctrine and Covenants come from, was that book plagerized too?
It's easy to sit back and critisize, but the proof is in the doing.
Joseph did his work, now do yours.
Brandon | 7:58 a.m. May 31, 2008
Be careful in judging the Book of Mormon too quickly. There are many
discrepancies in the Bible that don't mesh well with science too:
Did God create the world in 6 thousand years?
How does carbon dating fit into the scenario?
Where do dinosaurs fit into the picture?
Why is there so much evidence for evolution?
Why did people live to be a thousand years old?
You could go on and on. None of it meshes with science. If one bases their faith on the Bible because of tradition--then turns around to argue against the Book of Mormon because of DNA evidence-- he becomes a conundrum wrapped up in a tizzy. He contradicts himself. Where is the truth in that?
Admittedly, the "logical" things about the Book of Mormon and church history have been a real burr in my hinder region in the past. Approaching the Lord with an open heart gave me great peace in these matters and brought me to understand that, in the eternal scheme, these things are no more important than David Archuleta wining American Idol or BYU scoring a national champioinship.
Did God create the world in 6 thousand years?
How does carbon dating fit into the scenario?
Where do dinosaurs fit into the picture?
Why is there so much evidence for evolution?
Why did people live to be a thousand years old?
You could go on and on. None of it meshes with science. If one bases their faith on the Bible because of tradition--then turns around to argue against the Book of Mormon because of DNA evidence-- he becomes a conundrum wrapped up in a tizzy. He contradicts himself. Where is the truth in that?
Admittedly, the "logical" things about the Book of Mormon and church history have been a real burr in my hinder region in the past. Approaching the Lord with an open heart gave me great peace in these matters and brought me to understand that, in the eternal scheme, these things are no more important than David Archuleta wining American Idol or BYU scoring a national champioinship.
elephants and such | 8:26 a.m. May 31, 2008
In 1995-1998 near Hemet Southern California a dam was built during excavation,
bones and skeletons were found from extinct mastodons, mammoth, camel, sloth,
dire wolf and long-horned bison.
Many experts say the paleontogic finds of mammoth, mastodon and other Pleistocene Epoch species may well rival those at Rancho La Brea in Los Angeles, California (the world-famous La Brea Tar Pits). Unofficially, the area is being referred to as the Valley of the Mastodons. Fossils from the Diamond Valley Lake site comprise a classic late Pleistocene assemblage which includes the following extinct animals:
Jefferson�s ground sloth, Megalonyx jeffersoni
Harlan�s ground sloth, Paramylodon harlani
Dire wolf, Canis dirus
Black bear, Ursus americanus
Giant Short-faced bear, Arctodus simus
Sabre-toothed cat, Smilodon fatalis
American lion, Panthera atrox
American mastodon, Mammut americanum
Columbian mammoth, Mammuthus columbi
Western horse, Equus �occidentalis�
Small horse, Equus conversidens
Flat-headed peccary, Platygonus compressus
�Yesterday�s� camel, Camelops hesternus
Ancient bison, Bison antiquus
Long-horned bison, Bison latifrons
Alot more variety of animals than one would think. Kinda lets ya know just how much we dont know about the distant past and even the more recent past of the BOM.
Many experts say the paleontogic finds of mammoth, mastodon and other Pleistocene Epoch species may well rival those at Rancho La Brea in Los Angeles, California (the world-famous La Brea Tar Pits). Unofficially, the area is being referred to as the Valley of the Mastodons. Fossils from the Diamond Valley Lake site comprise a classic late Pleistocene assemblage which includes the following extinct animals:
Jefferson�s ground sloth, Megalonyx jeffersoni
Harlan�s ground sloth, Paramylodon harlani
Dire wolf, Canis dirus
Black bear, Ursus americanus
Giant Short-faced bear, Arctodus simus
Sabre-toothed cat, Smilodon fatalis
American lion, Panthera atrox
American mastodon, Mammut americanum
Columbian mammoth, Mammuthus columbi
Western horse, Equus �occidentalis�
Small horse, Equus conversidens
Flat-headed peccary, Platygonus compressus
�Yesterday�s� camel, Camelops hesternus
Ancient bison, Bison antiquus
Long-horned bison, Bison latifrons
Alot more variety of animals than one would think. Kinda lets ya know just how much we dont know about the distant past and even the more recent past of the BOM.
Kenzie | 9:27 a.m. May 31, 2008
The article is interesting in that it questions the current conclusion that all
Native Americans appear to come from east Asian descent. DNA "X" is
certainly a very interesting mystery. However, "X" is the female DNA.
"Q" is the male mystery DNA among Native Americans. Shouldn't
"Q" be the priority subject if we are looking at patriarchal descent?
Straws | 9:43 a.m. May 31, 2008
What kind of god scrambles human DNA and hides potential evidence proving the
historicity of the Book of Mormon? Do you worship a loving Father or a childish
diety who abuses magic powers and finds sport in deceiving his minions? While
you are grasping at straws and starting your sentences with
�what if,� consider that there is one
explanation that has always been present: The BOM was never a literal account
of the inhabitants of America. It doesn�t make the
parables and lessons any less valuable, but it does distort a predetermined
impression of the evolution of Mormonism. The amateur geneticist, Meldrum, is
seeking anything that will validate his pre-conceived beliefs, and by all
appearances many apologists here are doing the same. There is no opportunity
for any of us to learn truth without an open mind... regardless of the outcome.
RE: The Book is True! | 10:00 a.m. May 31, 2008
>>Now, how could Joseph Smith have known Egyptian?<<
Your argument is bizarre. Critics of the BOM do not believe JS ever knew Egyptian or the BOM was ever written in Egyptian, and of course we do not have the original gold plates to examine the linguistics. JS�s knowledge of Egyptian ancient texts was quite evident when the facsimiles were discovered that he used to �translate� the Book of Abraham (NY Times 12/29/1912).
Your argument is bizarre. Critics of the BOM do not believe JS ever knew Egyptian or the BOM was ever written in Egyptian, and of course we do not have the original gold plates to examine the linguistics. JS�s knowledge of Egyptian ancient texts was quite evident when the facsimiles were discovered that he used to �translate� the Book of Abraham (NY Times 12/29/1912).
The Nephite Language Problem | 10:36 a.m. May 31, 2008
The Book of Mormon makes clear that written records were of extreme importance
to the Nephites. They went to great lengths to return and obtain the records of
Laban. Each Book of Mormon prophet assumed the responsibility of a recording
tradition. Therefore, whether the Nephites became a large group of people or
were a small, condensed group - they clearly brought with them and continued a
strong tradition of keeping records in a language that obviously originated from
some combination of Egyptian, Hebrew or other Middle Eastern language.
The Laban story and BofM narrative indicates a Nephite tradition of recording onto plates - evidence of which could have been lost or taken from the earth by God. BUT, North and South American Indian writing traditions largely entail recording on stone walls, buildings, and other solid structures. Wouldn't the Nephites observe and embrace this from of recording in addition to their plates tradition? And yet nothing found to date inscribed on walls or temples or other stone structures indicate anything related to events or teachings found in the BofM (they actually detail a native religion vastly different from what the Nephites brought) or show any Egyptian, Hebrew, middle eastern linguistic influences.
The Laban story and BofM narrative indicates a Nephite tradition of recording onto plates - evidence of which could have been lost or taken from the earth by God. BUT, North and South American Indian writing traditions largely entail recording on stone walls, buildings, and other solid structures. Wouldn't the Nephites observe and embrace this from of recording in addition to their plates tradition? And yet nothing found to date inscribed on walls or temples or other stone structures indicate anything related to events or teachings found in the BofM (they actually detail a native religion vastly different from what the Nephites brought) or show any Egyptian, Hebrew, middle eastern linguistic influences.
Joseph Smith and Egyptian | 10:49 a.m. May 31, 2008
10:00 a.m. already mentioned this but I wanted to add - Joseph Smith's
claim of being able to translate Egyptian is actually one of the more verifiable
criticisms against him. Is all one has to do is to open their Pearl of Great
Price and read Joseph Smiths "translations" of the scroll drawings.
These are very common Egyptian funerary depictions with Egyptian symbols that
any Egyptologists today can easily read. The undisputed result is that Joseph
Smith did not translate one single Egyptian character correctly. I'm not
even talking about the Abraham scrolls issue - I am simply referring to the
interesting pictures found in every members copy of the Pearl of Great Price. I
honestly wish it were not true and that I could just put it all on a shelf and
pretend I never learned it - but almost everything related to Church history and
doctrine from the very different versions of the first vision on down to today
contain many, many difficulties. Plain and simple truths (or history) it is not.
I am not some angry anti. I am a member who wishes with all his heart Church
history and doctrine was not so incredibly problematic.
Questioner | 10:59 a.m. May 31, 2008
An earlier poster when addressing the various "limited geography"
theories stated that the BOM alludes to a huge population of Nephites and
Lamanites both North and South. No one commented on this. What does the chruch
teach, that decendents of Lehi filled the America's or that they just lived
in a small area? It seems it can't be both ways.
Jeff Taylor | 11:04 a.m. May 31, 2008
To many this is an important issue and it has the power to change opinions and
beliefs.
More important than this issue is how we learn individually and what defines "Truth." If we believe in God then shouldn't we wait upon Him for answers. Let's not let anyone's answers become our own without seeking for inspired guidance first.
Our educational system would have us believe that science is superior to religion. These two things will ultimately bear each other out. Scientific methodology is a great way to seek for physical evidence of spiritual truths. Whether you start with the spiritual truth or the physical truth, they will ultimately bear witness of each other.
I applaud Rod Meldrum for seeking answers and having the courage to share them. Don't forget that you individually are accountable for your beliefs. God won't judge you based on what Rod or anyone of these posts has to say. He will judge you based on your heart. Perhaps more importantly, you will judge yourself for what you believe truly limits what you are willing to receive.
God trusts each of us to work out our own way. I encourage you to carefully learn all you can.
More important than this issue is how we learn individually and what defines "Truth." If we believe in God then shouldn't we wait upon Him for answers. Let's not let anyone's answers become our own without seeking for inspired guidance first.
Our educational system would have us believe that science is superior to religion. These two things will ultimately bear each other out. Scientific methodology is a great way to seek for physical evidence of spiritual truths. Whether you start with the spiritual truth or the physical truth, they will ultimately bear witness of each other.
I applaud Rod Meldrum for seeking answers and having the courage to share them. Don't forget that you individually are accountable for your beliefs. God won't judge you based on what Rod or anyone of these posts has to say. He will judge you based on your heart. Perhaps more importantly, you will judge yourself for what you believe truly limits what you are willing to receive.
God trusts each of us to work out our own way. I encourage you to carefully learn all you can.
To: Brother Chuck Schroeder | 11:20 a.m. May 31, 2008
As a non-member I find it very difficult that LDS members actually believe
Moroni, a white-jewish-native-american-resurrected-angel took the gold plates
back to heaven. Why would take them back to heaven, when the Church could have
used them as a great missionary tool?
I find it very convenient when the one thing that could prove the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon has been taken back to heaven?! Why? What does heaven need with gold plates?
I find it very convenient when the one thing that could prove the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon has been taken back to heaven?! Why? What does heaven need with gold plates?
Micheal Bean | 11:25 a.m. May 31, 2008
Why hasn't anyone addressed the Zelph Revelation given to Joseph Smith?
This revelation puts this whole argument to rest. It was divinely revealed that
the Nephites and Lamanites lived and died in North America. LDS members cannot
dispute this revelation. End of Argument.
poor & uneducated | 11:39 a.m. May 31, 2008
If today, archeaologists discovered a city with the sign "Welcome to the
Nephite city of Zarahemla" and there were plates & they were translated
& matched the BofM exactly, and the discovery of Nephite DNA was proven,
would that cause the whole world to become LDS? No of course not! And those who
did believe because they saw a city or plates would their belief stand under
adversity? Probably not! So, just as hard evidence would not cause those who do
not believe to be able to believe, the lack of hard evidence does not cause
those who do believe to not believe. Maybe this is not an earthshaking idea,
and I am not a college graduate or expert in anything, but it was just a
thought.
To: Michael Bean | 11:51 a.m. May 31, 2008
In addition to the Zelph Revelation, Joseph Smith also had a revelation that the
City of Manti was in Randolph County Missouri. LDS members cannot refute this
fact that the City of Manti (from the Book of Mormon) was in Randolph County
Missouri.
Joseph Smith revealed in 1838 that "Huntsville, in Randolph County [Missouri], which has been appointed as one of the Stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti, from the Book of Mormon " History of the Church 1:326.
End of Discussion. Either you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet or not. If you do believe, then you believe that the Lamanites and Nephites lived in North America.
Joseph Smith revealed in 1838 that "Huntsville, in Randolph County [Missouri], which has been appointed as one of the Stakes of Zion, and is the ancient site of the City of Manti, from the Book of Mormon " History of the Church 1:326.
End of Discussion. Either you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet or not. If you do believe, then you believe that the Lamanites and Nephites lived in North America.
bigfoot/BOM DNA | 12:18 p.m. May 31, 2008
JEFF Meldrum-Bigfoot/ ROD Meldrum-Book of Mormon DNA. People people people Rod
Meldrum beleives the Book of Mormon to be the word of Go. It does not say he
does believes Bigfoot to be anything but a myth. How could you have been so
neglectful to not do your research and get the two Meldrum's straight.
To: bigfoor/BOM DNA | 12:34 p.m. May 31, 2008
Bigfoot and the Book of Mormon? They are both myths, however there is more
credible evidence for the existence of bigfoot than the Book of Mormon.
To:" To: Michael Bean" | 12:42 p.m. May 31, 2008
Knowledge based on evidence is better than belief based on no evidence.
Very Interesting Discussion | 12:43 p.m. May 31, 2008
To Poor and Uneducated: I have to disagree with you. The fact that there is
little to no physical evidence (without logic and reason being stretched to
it's limits) to substantiate the BofM narrative is a genuine hurdle that
has damaged my testimony of the truthfullness of Mormon claims. On the same
hand, many archeological finds that substantiate at least the people and places
mentioned in the Bible have greatly strengthened my testimony of that book and
message. There is NO QUESTION that inscriptions found in North or South America
that date to the BofM time period and mention people, places or even teachings
from the BofM would likewise strengthen my (and I'm sure many others)
testimony in that book. Literally thousands of archeological finds have at least
partially mirrored ancient records and documents far older than the BofM and yet
to date little to nothing has been found that does the same for the BofM without
major stretches in logic and reason.
Someone Please Answer | 12:55 p.m. May 31, 2008
I have always found it very interesting and in reality depressing that members
of the Church today can largely disregard teachings of past prophets if they
appear embarrassing or difficult to explain today.
Joseph Smith clearly taught (as well as many other early prophets and apostles) that all the events described in the Old Testiment from the introduction of Adam and Eve into the Garden of Eden up to the flood occurred right here in the United States. JS even pointed out what were the remains of the alter used by Adam and Eve to offer sacrifices to the Lord when expelled from the Garden. This is indisputable. It is not mormon legend or a misconstrued journal entry. Would there not be archeological evidence of generations living in a very defined American location? I get the problem of location regarding the BofM people and events but there is no such ambiguity regarding Adam and his posterity down to Adam. Can anyone help me understand both the lack of any evidence AND what appears to be a complete disregard for this monumental revelation by leaders and members today? I fear we are too embarrassed to acknowledge this important revelation today.
Joseph Smith clearly taught (as well as many other early prophets and apostles) that all the events described in the Old Testiment from the introduction of Adam and Eve into the Garden of Eden up to the flood occurred right here in the United States. JS even pointed out what were the remains of the alter used by Adam and Eve to offer sacrifices to the Lord when expelled from the Garden. This is indisputable. It is not mormon legend or a misconstrued journal entry. Would there not be archeological evidence of generations living in a very defined American location? I get the problem of location regarding the BofM people and events but there is no such ambiguity regarding Adam and his posterity down to Adam. Can anyone help me understand both the lack of any evidence AND what appears to be a complete disregard for this monumental revelation by leaders and members today? I fear we are too embarrassed to acknowledge this important revelation today.
Science and Religion | 12:58 p.m. May 31, 2008
Science would tell you the density of man is greater then the density of water
(and very true), hence you cannot walk on water. But of course we know that not
always to be true.
Science will tell you if you put your hand in a fiery furnace it will burn, but of course that isn't always true either.
Science will tell you if you step off a cliff you will fall at 9.8 m/s squared. and of course we know that this is not always the case either.
Etc, etc. etc...
When will man learn that God, Faith, the Priesthood are not subject to mans/earth frivilous laws.
The laws of Eternity are much greater then the laws of this Earth. We are subject to the laws of the Earth, but the Lord is not.
Hence Science does not always answer the questions created from religion. Nor will it answer the questions created from a religious text, the B of M.
Science will tell you if you put your hand in a fiery furnace it will burn, but of course that isn't always true either.
Science will tell you if you step off a cliff you will fall at 9.8 m/s squared. and of course we know that this is not always the case either.
Etc, etc. etc...
When will man learn that God, Faith, the Priesthood are not subject to mans/earth frivilous laws.
The laws of Eternity are much greater then the laws of this Earth. We are subject to the laws of the Earth, but the Lord is not.
Hence Science does not always answer the questions created from religion. Nor will it answer the questions created from a religious text, the B of M.
poor & uneducated | 4:52 p.m. May 31, 2008
Hi there "very interesting discussion"!(I have to agree with you on
that!) Sorry I wasn't very clear, I was just thinking that finding
"evidence" would not cause EVERYONE to suddenly join the LDS Church.
Of course it would be a great help to some too! To some it would be the only way
they would ever believe. That's OK! (I think it was decided that FORCING
everyone to believe was a bad idea!!) Everyone has to decide for themselves and
"evidence" could make it easier. That's why there's so many
opinions here and such an interesting discussion. I don't think anything
we could say here would cause everyone to believe or not believe, but it sure
gets everyone thinking! (At least the people reading these comments.) I
didn't think anyone would even care about my comment since I'm not any
type of PhD or scholar, so thanks for "listening" and I appreciate
your response! Hope someday you'll find just the evidence your looking
for, whether it's physical, historical or spritual! Hey! The same goes for
everyone else out there!
William | 4:52 p.m. May 31, 2008
Henry, the answer to your wondering is that it's important to investigate
the evidence to find truth that confirms the convictions we hold through faith.
Like, when I look at "Earth" and notice it's 72% covered with
water, why not call it planet "Water" and realizes 3/4 of earth is
still covered with water since the flood? That's evidence of a global
flood to me and confirms my faith in the Bible.
William | 4:54 p.m. May 31, 2008
I really like this part of the article in MORMON TIMES.COM:
Meldrum, however, was intrigued by recent studies that showed another haplogroup appearing in American Indian populations. This haplogroup is identified by the letter "X." The curious thing for researchers is that X is one of several known European haplogroups. It is not Asian.
Meldrum, however, was intrigued by recent studies that showed another haplogroup appearing in American Indian populations. This haplogroup is identified by the letter "X." The curious thing for researchers is that X is one of several known European haplogroups. It is not Asian.
Dr. Scientist | 5:20 p.m. May 31, 2008
"...archeology in the Old and New worlds provide evidence for the Book of
Mormon text..."
Really? According to anyone besides yourself and FARMS, I mean? Where is it?
Really? According to anyone besides yourself and FARMS, I mean? Where is it?
Cece | 6:25 p.m. May 31, 2008
It makes so much sense that the B of M land is in the U.S. because it fits the
description of the "promised land". It is so refreshing to have this
perspective promoted. Thanks, Michael for sharing this info.
Kim | 6:59 p.m. May 31, 2008
The B of M has some real issues when attempting to speak from an historical
percpective. It is what it is; and trying to cookie cut it into a historical
percpective will ultimatley unravel the the church. Leave well enough alone as I
do not think we should try to find out what we do not want to know.
re: Kim | 7:42 p.m. May 31, 2008
You are right on. We should bury our heads in the sand and keep paying tithing.
We do not want to be confused by learning any fact or truth that might be less
than faith promoting. I am sure that someday God will reward our diligence
because we refused to let go of our ingrained beliefs in spite of His gift to
us...our wonderful ability to reason. It�s worked for me
so far...I still believe in the tooth fairy.
Sanity Check | 7:57 p.m. May 31, 2008
I think it is downright stupid to claim that if the Gold Plates were presented
and made public, and if archeologists found clear and obvious references to Book
of Mormon people, places, and events in the archeological records, and other
similar "scientific" proofs, that it would not influence people to
join the LDS Church. Baloney. It certainly WOULD influence people! There is no
question!
But the fact that there is NO such evidence, and NO plates, works the other way around and keeps people from believing the claims of Mormonism. That is only reasonable and rational. To do otherwise would be just plain foolish. To do otherwise would be to abandon reason and give in to any charlatan that comes along wanting 10% of your money in exchange for some miracle potion or story of alien abductions or footprint castes of BigFoot! What hogwash! What nonsense!
And so the Book of Mormon as well as other Mormon claims will continue where they belong: alongside stories of alien abductions, BigFoot, the Loch Ness monster and so forth. They belong in carnivals, freak shows, and tabloids, but not in the minds of sane human beings.
But the fact that there is NO such evidence, and NO plates, works the other way around and keeps people from believing the claims of Mormonism. That is only reasonable and rational. To do otherwise would be just plain foolish. To do otherwise would be to abandon reason and give in to any charlatan that comes along wanting 10% of your money in exchange for some miracle potion or story of alien abductions or footprint castes of BigFoot! What hogwash! What nonsense!
And so the Book of Mormon as well as other Mormon claims will continue where they belong: alongside stories of alien abductions, BigFoot, the Loch Ness monster and so forth. They belong in carnivals, freak shows, and tabloids, but not in the minds of sane human beings.
Joe | 8:11 p.m. May 31, 2008
As a few people recently pointed out, Joseph Smith was unequivocal in his
assertion that all native Americans were descendants of the Lamanites. This was
just a single claim made at a single time, but claims made over a lifetime. If
Joseph Smith's claims aren't true, then he simply wasn't a
prophet and the whole thing was a fraud. You can't have it both ways, which
is what modern apologists are trying to do.
RE: Elephants | 8:29 p.m. May 31, 2008
Sure there were some MAMMOTHS in the Americas but there extinction preceeded the
mormon story by about 8000 years. Sure you can make the book look true if you
are careless enough to leave out these types of 'minor' details.
Don't even get me started about Native Americans and some of the conjecture the LDS church has tried to frame them into it's fantastic story.
Don't even get me started about Native Americans and some of the conjecture the LDS church has tried to frame them into it's fantastic story.
Roberta Bryant | 8:41 p.m. May 31, 2008
Congratulations to Mr. M. Groote for having the courage to write this
information for all to read and the opportunity given to them to do some of
their own research from Rod's information before burying their heads in the
sand and congratulations to Rod Meldrum for having the courage himself to share
his research with all of us, knowing he would encounter opposition as do all who
seek the truth and to share it.
There are many out here who know the BOM is true and are not afraid of new truths that have been promised to us in the Latter Days. When has God EVER sent knowledge out by the hands of Scholars and Great Teachers that he himself did not bring forth?
Nope! He keeps it simple! He doesn't clutter it up with lots of theory or maybe's. So don't either of you two courages men stop now! There are too many of us out here seeking truth not HYPE!
By the way, I have also heard Rod's presentation several times.
There are many out here who know the BOM is true and are not afraid of new truths that have been promised to us in the Latter Days. When has God EVER sent knowledge out by the hands of Scholars and Great Teachers that he himself did not bring forth?
Nope! He keeps it simple! He doesn't clutter it up with lots of theory or maybe's. So don't either of you two courages men stop now! There are too many of us out here seeking truth not HYPE!
By the way, I have also heard Rod's presentation several times.
RE: William 4:52 | 9:14 p.m. May 31, 2008
We call this planet �Earth� and not
�Water�, therefore that is evidence
enough for you that there was a global flood???
Seriously? Are you from FARMS?
Seriously? Are you from FARMS?
Sam | 9:21 p.m. May 31, 2008
Why would God be so cruel and deceptive to his 'True Church' by with
holding scietnific evidence and profividing false revelation? Well one answer
could be it is not true.
I am Christian and as a Chrisitan I have no such challenges with my scripture and the historic relevence.
I am Christian and as a Chrisitan I have no such challenges with my scripture and the historic relevence.
Courage | 9:43 p.m. May 31, 2008
Roberta makes a very important point. It takes a great deal of courage for men
like these to go public with their ideas.
But then it takes a lot of courage to go public with the idea that you were abducted and "examined" by aliens.
...and to let people know you honestly believe that the Japanese Mafia is using a weather control machine to create hurricanes in the Gulf Coast.
...and to be public about your beliefs that the Lost 10 Tribes of Israel are actually living in a tropical paradise in the center of the earth (only accessible, apparently, through the North Pole with proper authorization from Santa Claus!)
...and to let sane people know that you honestly believe that a disembodied spirit talks to you to help you find your contact lenses, of to help you perform better on exams, or to find your car keys!
I guess when it comes right down to it, it takes a LOT OF COURAGE TO BE PUBLICLY INSANE!
But being courageous does NOT equal being RIGHT. If it did, 911 proves that radical Islam is the ONLY TRUE RELIGION! They are more courageous than all the Mormons!
But then it takes a lot of courage to go public with the idea that you were abducted and "examined" by aliens.
...and to let people know you honestly believe that the Japanese Mafia is using a weather control machine to create hurricanes in the Gulf Coast.
...and to be public about your beliefs that the Lost 10 Tribes of Israel are actually living in a tropical paradise in the center of the earth (only accessible, apparently, through the North Pole with proper authorization from Santa Claus!)
...and to let sane people know that you honestly believe that a disembodied spirit talks to you to help you find your contact lenses, of to help you perform better on exams, or to find your car keys!
I guess when it comes right down to it, it takes a LOT OF COURAGE TO BE PUBLICLY INSANE!
But being courageous does NOT equal being RIGHT. If it did, 911 proves that radical Islam is the ONLY TRUE RELIGION! They are more courageous than all the Mormons!
Doug Forbes | 10:03 p.m. May 31, 2008
First, Micheal, if you served in The Netherlands in the mid 1980's, shoot
me an email.
Second, who told you that Native Americans have only Asian DNA markers? The primary pre-Columbian male lineage of Native Americans is Q. About 15% of Yemenite Jews are Q; as are 5% of Ashkenazi and Iraqi Jews. Q is found scattered mainly in a huge triangle that has Norway as the western point, Mongolia as the east and the Iranian cities of Shiraz and Esfahan as the southern point.
Second, who told you that Native Americans have only Asian DNA markers? The primary pre-Columbian male lineage of Native Americans is Q. About 15% of Yemenite Jews are Q; as are 5% of Ashkenazi and Iraqi Jews. Q is found scattered mainly in a huge triangle that has Norway as the western point, Mongolia as the east and the Iranian cities of Shiraz and Esfahan as the southern point.
Michael | 10:33 p.m. May 31, 2008
I was wondering how many of you have actually read the complete Book of Mormon?
Please pray then read the book of mormon. It just might open your eyes to the
mysteries of God. Peace be with you.
Educated Belliever | 11:54 p.m. May 31, 2008
To all those who dismiss Meldrum's research out of hand as he is not a
"scientist" better learn what a scientist actually is. Meldurm
engaged in a METASTUDY. If you do not know what a metastudy is, you have no
business discussing the validity of his reaserach. A metastudy is a synthesis
of exisiting reasearch on a particular subject, and drawing conclusions by
triangulating multiple studies. Rodney Meldrum's research is a valid
example of a a very common, useful, and widely accepted research method.
Not to give the guy to much credit, but Einstein's "thought experiments" were also a good example of metastudy. Also, it is not like Einstein was a credentialed member of the scientific community. Further, it is not like the "credentialed community" has not engaged in some extremely horrendous science with global warming.
Not to give the guy to much credit, but Einstein's "thought experiments" were also a good example of metastudy. Also, it is not like Einstein was a credentialed member of the scientific community. Further, it is not like the "credentialed community" has not engaged in some extremely horrendous science with global warming.
1 Who No's | 7:42 a.m. June 1, 2008
"Educated Believer" -- what an oxymoron! And a moronic comment!
Albert Einstein was formally educated in the subject in which he made his historic contributions. He was surrounded by colleagues who were luminaries in the field, and he worked closely with them as a peer even while he worked the job at the patent office to make ends meet. His "thought experiments" were NOT "metastudy" (it is called "meta-analysis"). [And contrary to popular myths, he DID NOT fail or "struggle" in elementary or secondary school or with math).
Neither is Rod Meldrum's research a valid meta-analysis. Rod Meldrum is also NOT affiliated with luminary colleagues in the field of genetics who are checking his work and collaborating to ensure valid scientific methodologies are being followed. His research is not quantitative, and to the degree that it can be classified as "qualitative", it fails miserably to adhere to agreed standards of qualitative research. The bottom line is Rod's research is a hack-job and a biased conglomeration of twisted and distorted information bits. There is no peer review (of qualified peers) or independent verification or adherence to proper methodology. It is a joke, and he will do nothing but embarrass the Church.
Albert Einstein was formally educated in the subject in which he made his historic contributions. He was surrounded by colleagues who were luminaries in the field, and he worked closely with them as a peer even while he worked the job at the patent office to make ends meet. His "thought experiments" were NOT "metastudy" (it is called "meta-analysis"). [And contrary to popular myths, he DID NOT fail or "struggle" in elementary or secondary school or with math).
Neither is Rod Meldrum's research a valid meta-analysis. Rod Meldrum is also NOT affiliated with luminary colleagues in the field of genetics who are checking his work and collaborating to ensure valid scientific methodologies are being followed. His research is not quantitative, and to the degree that it can be classified as "qualitative", it fails miserably to adhere to agreed standards of qualitative research. The bottom line is Rod's research is a hack-job and a biased conglomeration of twisted and distorted information bits. There is no peer review (of qualified peers) or independent verification or adherence to proper methodology. It is a joke, and he will do nothing but embarrass the Church.
Bryan | 7:50 a.m. June 1, 2008
I find it amazing that despite facts, evidence, nearly universal lore, or
anything else we as human beings can find - there are always those who only find
fault. Some very smart people in this world can't even find God - do you
believe them? So it looks like we believe what we are willing to believe, even
if we are shown proof. If we had the gold plates today and they were proven
genuine by science, I don't know that it would make any difference because
people would still have something to find fault in. "OK, so that's
true, but what about this, and this..."
I personally am having an amazing journey looking for BOM evidences among the Hopewell ruins - and finding many. Rod's research was just a springboard to get people started on their own journey if they are willing to look. So believe what you want to believe - in the end it will all be revealed, and as long as we are not found fighing against God, it will be well with us.
I personally am having an amazing journey looking for BOM evidences among the Hopewell ruins - and finding many. Rod's research was just a springboard to get people started on their own journey if they are willing to look. So believe what you want to believe - in the end it will all be revealed, and as long as we are not found fighing against God, it will be well with us.
1 Who No's | 8:26 a.m. June 1, 2008
Bryan,
Neither you nor Rod nor anyone else has provided "evidence". Where is this "evidence"? Universal Lore? You must be joking! Are you seriously going to 1) try to claim that there is "universal lore" supporting BOM claims, and 2) ignore all the other "universal lore" that is directly contradictory to BOM claims?
You are wrong about people in general. If proof were provided, people would believe. That is the nature of people, and history supports that fact. History also supports the fact that in the absence of proof, people will exploit one another with fables, myths, and lies. Only when science comes to the rescue are people empowered to escape ignorance and the exploitation it enables.
Neither you nor Rod nor anyone else has provided "evidence". Where is this "evidence"? Universal Lore? You must be joking! Are you seriously going to 1) try to claim that there is "universal lore" supporting BOM claims, and 2) ignore all the other "universal lore" that is directly contradictory to BOM claims?
You are wrong about people in general. If proof were provided, people would believe. That is the nature of people, and history supports that fact. History also supports the fact that in the absence of proof, people will exploit one another with fables, myths, and lies. Only when science comes to the rescue are people empowered to escape ignorance and the exploitation it enables.
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