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Young 'did not order massacre'
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Val | 11:18 a.m. May 26, 2008
Interesting comments. When will the the mormons stop the name calling of anti
and ex when someone disagrees with them? I would suspect if you know your are
right or true about any subject you would not feel the need to argue nor even
post a comment on this post. Victimization runs deep in the mormons and thess
comments are just another example of that mindset. Now you get over it as 99.99%
of the earth does not know ever will ever know of brigham young so you can all
cool your heals on this.
Janelle S. | 11:49 a.m. May 26, 2008
I was wondering the same thing why it always the ex- members, inactive members,
and non-members who always are blamed for everything on these blogs? I am a
member and very active LDS, and I believe possibly Brigham Young did have
something to do with the Massacre. I am not trying to be condemning or critical,
it's just what I believe.
Re: Val | 12:18 p.m. May 26, 2008
Not to say that the name calling doesn't happen but in my opinion and
I've read the article and the entire blog; it's not that ex members,
non members, or even anti mormons have a different opinion, it's that in
most cases whenever an article is written that has anything to do with the
Mormon Church it brings out a lot of hatred and venomous posts from the
previously mentioned and in particular those who were once members. It's
just like Joseph Smith once said.. "you can leave, but you can never leave
it alone" if you read any article the DN ever prints regarding the church,
for whatever reason there are plenty of those who were once members who for some
reason feel the need to come on and post what seems like nothing but hate and
negativity towards the church. Just my opinion
Comments continue below
Mike R. | 2:32 p.m. May 26, 2008
Everyone needs to grown up for heaven sakes. Having a cow over a tragedy that
happened 150 years ago is a bit juvenile.
So what if Brigham did or didn't order it. Nothing in my reading of the book by Juanita Brooks, which I still feel is the magnum opus on the subject, leads me to believe that Brigham had anything to do with it except to help to furment the attitudes of the time.
I for one am far more concerned over what was purpetrated by Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Lenin, Saddam, and any one of a dozen other tyrants and miscreants. They killed 10's of millions.
The Mountain Meadows Massacre happened 150 years ago. It is time for everyone to grow up and move on. None of the survivors have been alive for generations. The constant perpetuation of hate and discontent over this subject blows my mind.
I could be mad at Missouri or Illinois for being responsible for killing some of my ancestors. I'm not. It happened, I'm not going to cry over it. I'm also not holding a grudge.
I'll wait until Turley's book comes out, read it, and then make an informed decision.
So what if Brigham did or didn't order it. Nothing in my reading of the book by Juanita Brooks, which I still feel is the magnum opus on the subject, leads me to believe that Brigham had anything to do with it except to help to furment the attitudes of the time.
I for one am far more concerned over what was purpetrated by Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Mao, Lenin, Saddam, and any one of a dozen other tyrants and miscreants. They killed 10's of millions.
The Mountain Meadows Massacre happened 150 years ago. It is time for everyone to grow up and move on. None of the survivors have been alive for generations. The constant perpetuation of hate and discontent over this subject blows my mind.
I could be mad at Missouri or Illinois for being responsible for killing some of my ancestors. I'm not. It happened, I'm not going to cry over it. I'm also not holding a grudge.
I'll wait until Turley's book comes out, read it, and then make an informed decision.
Victim & Perpetrators | 3:14 p.m. May 26, 2008
Hey Mike R. I agree, No need for people to continue holding grudges. My ancestor
was beheaded by King Henry VIII, and I don't hold a grudge. It doesn't
matter, no one in my family is suffering over it. The hate people have for
Brigham Young and the perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre needs to
stop! We will never know what really happened back then. But I bet you, we would
all be very surprised if we knew the whole truth. It may have not been anything
like what we have imagined it to be. Perhaps the haters of B.Young and the
perpetrators would calm themselves if they new what really happened- IT MAY BE A
TOTAL SURPRISE!
May Gods help find PEACE for the victims families and the perpetrators families living today. It's no ones fault who is living today.
May Gods help find PEACE for the victims families and the perpetrators families living today. It's no ones fault who is living today.
Stephen | 4:41 p.m. May 26, 2008
I agree with Val that the name calling is just amazing when an LDS member does
not agree with LDS theology or disputed its history. The terms are spewed to
come across as a derogatory comments. We recently had the word
'anti's' show up as a compliment to the staples we hear all the
time. Not all or perhaps most disagreement equates anti-mormon; it is merely a
difference of opinion and/or percepective.
In addition you are seeing more and more mormons attack themselves on these blog when thought are not directly in line. I'm not how these factions will be labeled but I am sure they will be on levels of rightiousness.
In addition you are seeing more and more mormons attack themselves on these blog when thought are not directly in line. I'm not how these factions will be labeled but I am sure they will be on levels of rightiousness.
I'll never trust them | 6:37 p.m. May 26, 2008
If I live to be a hundred, I will always view a group of people who knowingly,
willfully, and falsely accused the Paiute Indians for the massacre of women and
children, with a huge degree of suspicion, distrust and contempt.
Facts? Where are they? | 6:48 p.m. May 26, 2008
No Indian and no white man knows who "exactly" killed those people, or
who even took the first shot. It's a mystery, so no one should put the
blame on any particular person other then their leader.
Journals of Discourses-B.Y. | 7:00 p.m. May 26, 2008
10:104
In 1857 it is estimated that eleven thousand troops were ordered here; some seven thousand started for this place, with several thousand hangers on. They came into this Territory when a company of emigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of the Company were destroyed by the Indians. That unfortunate affair has been laid to the charge of the whites. A certain judge that was then in this Territory wanted the whole army to accompany him to Iron county to try the whites for the murder of that company of emigrants.
In 1857 it is estimated that eleven thousand troops were ordered here; some seven thousand started for this place, with several thousand hangers on. They came into this Territory when a company of emigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of the Company were destroyed by the Indians. That unfortunate affair has been laid to the charge of the whites. A certain judge that was then in this Territory wanted the whole army to accompany him to Iron county to try the whites for the murder of that company of emigrants.
RE: Journal of Discourses | 9:41 p.m. May 26, 2008
Yeah, BY said a whole lot of things in his discourses, including teaching
doctrines that were inconsistent with Mormon scriptures or were simply not true
and later reversed or flat out denied by other church presidents. BY as a
colonizer, politician, businessman and kingdom builder I can see. I struggle
more in trying to see him as a man who knew the difference between truth and
lies. Besides, since when did we Mormons ever let the truth get in the way of a
good faith promoting story. Given the political situation at the time and BYs
survivalist thinking, I can definitely see his involvement in this tragedy.
to-9:41 | 11:43 p.m. May 26, 2008
Get over yourself!
The truth: | 9:13 a.m. May 27, 2008
This is modern-day Mormon spin on actual historical events they are now trying
to alter to improve their image. The truth speaks for itself: Brigham Young
ordered the murder of all those people, plain and simple.
Here ya go | 10:24 a.m. May 27, 2008
To facts, where are they? 6:48
Last September, on the 150th anniversary of the massacre, Mormon apostle Henry B. Eyring, speaking for the church, formally acknowledged that Mormons is southern Utah had organized and carried out the massacre. "What was done here long ago by members of our Church represents a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching and conduct," Eyring said. A "separate expression of regret," he continued, "is owed to the Paiute people who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occured during the massacre."
Last September, on the 150th anniversary of the massacre, Mormon apostle Henry B. Eyring, speaking for the church, formally acknowledged that Mormons is southern Utah had organized and carried out the massacre. "What was done here long ago by members of our Church represents a terrible and inexcusable departure from Christian teaching and conduct," Eyring said. A "separate expression of regret," he continued, "is owed to the Paiute people who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occured during the massacre."
To Here ya go (Dave) | 10:36 a.m. May 27, 2008
10:104
In 1857 it is estimated that eleven thousand troops were ordered here; some seven thousand started for this place, with several thousand hangers on. They came into this Territory when a company of emigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of the Company were destroyed by the Indians. That unfortunate affair has been laid to the charge of the whites. A certain judge that was then in this Territory wanted the whole army to accompany him to Iron county to try the whites for the murder of that company of emigrants.
Journal of Discourses, by Brigham Young 10:104
DO YOU SEE A LITTLE CONTRADICTION HERE?
THIS KEEPS GETTING STRANGER!
In 1857 it is estimated that eleven thousand troops were ordered here; some seven thousand started for this place, with several thousand hangers on. They came into this Territory when a company of emigrants were traveling on the south route to California. Nearly all of the Company were destroyed by the Indians. That unfortunate affair has been laid to the charge of the whites. A certain judge that was then in this Territory wanted the whole army to accompany him to Iron county to try the whites for the murder of that company of emigrants.
Journal of Discourses, by Brigham Young 10:104
DO YOU SEE A LITTLE CONTRADICTION HERE?
THIS KEEPS GETTING STRANGER!
jared in az | 10:42 a.m. May 27, 2008
Get over it? If they hairs of our heads are numbered and a sparrow's fall
is noted, the MMM cannot be discounted. Any human life is precious, any time,
any place.
The MMM massacre is a fact, like a piece of plastic, metal or leather.
The question is: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?
What you make of is shows what you are.
Is it a reason to:
hate Mormons?
disbelieve Mormon doctrine?
Forgive?
Resolve not to cover up your own sins?
Resolve not to violate your own conscience?
Hunker in the bunker?
BY ordered it, so....
BY did not order it, so...
The MMM massacre is a fact, like a piece of plastic, metal or leather.
The question is: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF IT?
What you make of is shows what you are.
Is it a reason to:
hate Mormons?
disbelieve Mormon doctrine?
Forgive?
Resolve not to cover up your own sins?
Resolve not to violate your own conscience?
Hunker in the bunker?
BY ordered it, so....
BY did not order it, so...
Check out Smithsonian Magazine | 11:34 a.m. May 27, 2008
I have no reason to doubt Mormon apostle, Henry B. Eyring, as he spoke for the
Church last September in apologizing for the blame placed on the Paiutes.
It only stands to reason that the Paiutes could care less about what was going on between the United States government and the war with Utah.
Great stuff in the June issue of Smithsonian Magazine.
It only stands to reason that the Paiutes could care less about what was going on between the United States government and the war with Utah.
Great stuff in the June issue of Smithsonian Magazine.
Rest In Peace! | 1:23 p.m. May 27, 2008
M. M. M. REST IN PEACE! Now, folks GO AWAY! Live your lives and let the LDS
church live theirs!
Anonymous | 3:26 p.m. May 27, 2008
Okay we'll go away.
But first promise you will never, never, never, never, never tell a lie again.
But first promise you will never, never, never, never, never tell a lie again.
No Lie | 4:18 p.m. May 27, 2008
Brigham Young is guilty.
Anonymous | 4:34 p.m. May 27, 2008
More lies from this culture.
Gifts that keep giving and giving and ...
Gifts that keep giving and giving and ...
Steve45 | 4:52 p.m. May 27, 2008
I wish each of you could have shared the warm experience I had of meeting M/M
Harley Fancher on the Sunday when they attended the Harrison, AR Ward where the
L.D.S. Church historian and staff spoke about 2 months ago. They'd spent
much time with the Fancher couple. I looked into Mr. Fancher's (descendant
of Alexander Fancher, leader of the wagon train) moist eyes as he explained his
deep feelings of appreciation for the Church. My wife and I sat beside them,
and we look forward to accepting their invitation to their home this Summer.
For me, this puts any/all previously-written negative comments in perspective.
Abe93 | 7:42 p.m. May 27, 2008
To Steve45,
I wish we could all have the "warm experience" of meeting the decendants of those 120 people who were murdered in cold blood.
If you are so easily pleased with such silly, meaningless actions as sitting through a meeting with a surviving Fancher, then you are too simple minded to understand the huge loss this atrocity created in hundreds of people's lives for many generations.
I wish we could all have the "warm experience" of meeting the decendants of those 120 people who were murdered in cold blood.
If you are so easily pleased with such silly, meaningless actions as sitting through a meeting with a surviving Fancher, then you are too simple minded to understand the huge loss this atrocity created in hundreds of people's lives for many generations.
RE: Blake 10:56 | 8:51 a.m. May 28, 2008
Considering " ... a man who for his entire lifetime exhibited love,
compassion, charity, service to his fellow beings, all the sudden says
"yeah, go ahead and murder a bunch of innocent people in cold blood"
and then goes back to the way he was before. Hmmm...does not make any sense.
"
Sounds like a temporary insanity plea.
Sounds like a temporary insanity plea.
More RE: Blake 10:56 | 10:31 a.m. May 28, 2008
Anyone that considers BY to be "..a man who for his entire lifetime
exhibited love, compassion, charity, service to his fellow beings..." is
sorely mistaken and obviously hasn't read much of the doctrine he spewed or
the history of his life. BY was ruthless, calculating, and manipulative and
accomplished much by being so.
Steve45 | 4:15 p.m. May 28, 2008
I'm thankful we had the chance to meet the current leader of the Fancher
family organization, former president & current MMM organization officer, to
know he's sorted the event out in his mind. It's all that anyone alive
today could ask for. I've been L.D.S. for 48 years, sometimes less-active,
& could still never imagine BY as described by Blake & Co. above. My
great grandmother worked for him, & never reported anything but kind
treatment by him & his family. I'm only 63, so wasn't alive to
know him personally. As a university research scientist myself, Texas A&M
graduate, I would challenge Blake to present his case with original, unbiased
data as is required by all who draft research outcomes. I listened with
particular care to the articulate presentation by Mr. Turley on that Sunday I
mentioned. His team worked exhaustively through all the Fancher Company
relatives for more than 2 years to uncover all evidence. I've never once
found any documents or speeches given by any L.D.S. leader alluding to a
cover-up. I've always been very puzzled by people like Blake & Co. who
seem to spend time to make every effort to offend the L.D.S. Church.
it happened | 5:49 p.m. May 28, 2008
Of course Young had something to do with the massacre.
It wasn't that long ago when LDS people were in denial as to the event even happening.
Face the music.
The truth will set you free.
It wasn't that long ago when LDS people were in denial as to the event even happening.
Face the music.
The truth will set you free.
Gemini | 9:41 p.m. May 28, 2008
To FaithNoMO. How interesting your one sided comment is. Your quick to condemn
the church's investigation and give support to the other. How do you or
anyone else assume you know anything that happened 200 years ago? All anyone can
do is read and study and try to draw a conclusion. Is it full proof? NO!! I
can just as easily call you a tyrant and base my decision on your foolish
statement. That doesn't make it right or wrong. Wake up and grow up!!!
Ralph | 8:17 a.m. May 29, 2008
The LDS church, like most other religious organizations, is all about white wash
and politics of control by manipulation an deceit.
Kent | 8:59 a.m. May 29, 2008
Too many forgeries of documents and testimonies, who knows what to believe. I
think B.Y. Was behind the massacre. He was the leader and no one went against
the leader.
To Kent: | 11:29 a.m. May 29, 2008
"No one went against the leader"? Oh really? Since when? People are
constantly disagreeing with policy or doctrine, and going against the advice of
the church leaders. Joseph Smith had to fight against mutiny every single time
he introduced new doctrine or made a simple human mistake. Once he was dead,
many of the church didn't want to follow Brigham Young as the new leader,
and left the church. Then, once the polygamy policy was rescinded, more people
left the church. When the policy allowing every worthy male to hold the
Priesthood was put into place, even more people left the church. Even family
members of the church leaders have gone against their instruction. And those are
just the most extreme examples. People are constantly second guessing their
church leaders, or disagreeing with one idea or another. Look at how many people
are going against the church leaders in regards to homosexual marriage. Just
because most of the church members trust the Prophet to lead them in the right
direction doesn't mean that EVERYBODY believes that. It happens all the
time, and existing evidence in this case points to it happening again.
Samuel D. | 11:36 a.m. May 29, 2008
The best eye-witness testimony of the event are the writings of John D. Lee. He
says Young knew and condoned the actions. That was his testimony to his dying
day--which came 20 years after Brigham Young helped cover up the MMM! 20 years!
As a beloved "adopted son" of Brigham Young, John D. Lee was taken
care of by BY as long as BY could get away with it. When it became apparent that
BY could not continue the deception, he threw Lee and the others to the legal
wolves - Lee in particular was executed two decades AFTER the MMM because of
BY's complicity in not only the MMM, but also the coverup that followed!
Included in that coverup were acts of animosity ordered by BY, such as
destroying memorials created to mark the spot of the deaths of those innocent
people. Now why would BY order that?
The truth is, regardless of what Church-paid "historians" claim, anyone who has read the original journals and writings cannot help but conclude that BY was "involved" in MMM. And that means he was NOT a representative of God! No way! No how! Period!
The truth is, regardless of what Church-paid "historians" claim, anyone who has read the original journals and writings cannot help but conclude that BY was "involved" in MMM. And that means he was NOT a representative of God! No way! No how! Period!
of course | 12:01 p.m. May 29, 2008
Of course Young knew all about it.
I thought EVERYBODY knew that.
I thought EVERYBODY knew that.
Kevin | 12:12 p.m. May 29, 2008
TO TO KENT 11:29
Militia-NEVER, NEVER, NEVER go against orders. That would be treason. Give me a break. Are we dealing here with Mormons or morons?
Militia-NEVER, NEVER, NEVER go against orders. That would be treason. Give me a break. Are we dealing here with Mormons or morons?
To Kevin: | 12:22 p.m. May 29, 2008
The Mormon militia went against Joseph Smith's orders on several occasions.
One of the members even betrayed the entire membership of the church, which led
to them the siege of Far West and the eventual removal of the Mormons from yet
another town with nothing but what they had on their backs. What's to say
they didn't also go against Brigham Young?
Cover Up | 1:07 p.m. May 29, 2008
It's really simple folks.
Yes, of course there has always in history those who go against orders and, even those who commit mutiny.
But those people will eventually be found, tried, and punished.
Brigham Young, didn't punish them, the law did, and what's the give away of his involvement is that he actually protected them.
Protecting the sin of murder by someone who preaches the word of God that abhors the slightest intent of committing murder, well, it's not hard to add two and two together.
But of course, the Mormons have a different scripture to calculate numbers. Because they have the true math calculating system given by God.
Yes, of course there has always in history those who go against orders and, even those who commit mutiny.
But those people will eventually be found, tried, and punished.
Brigham Young, didn't punish them, the law did, and what's the give away of his involvement is that he actually protected them.
Protecting the sin of murder by someone who preaches the word of God that abhors the slightest intent of committing murder, well, it's not hard to add two and two together.
But of course, the Mormons have a different scripture to calculate numbers. Because they have the true math calculating system given by God.
a revelation? | 1:30 p.m. May 29, 2008
So, do you think Young said,
"I've had a revelation. Kill all the people from Arkansas." ???
"I've had a revelation. Kill all the people from Arkansas." ???
Anonymous | 2:23 p.m. May 29, 2008
This is a one sided cover up. I don't care. The rest of the world knows the
truth. Shame on those who cover a cowards tracts.
no surprise here | 2:57 p.m. May 29, 2008
What else would you expect from an entire culture that lives a lie?
Truly Sorry | 3:14 p.m. May 29, 2008
I had an ancestor who was in the Mormon militia that you people are writing
about. My Mormon ancestor never ran from the law, and he never tried to hide the
fact that he was there and near the M. M. M. He was a faithful follower of
Brigham Young and Joseph Smith. I don't know what else I can say to you
people, except, that, me and my family are truly very sorry that Mountain
Meadows Massacre ever happened. Truly very sorry.
dinner's on me! | 5:31 p.m. May 29, 2008
Finally, an honest Mormon (Truly Sorry)
I'd like to buy you dinner sometime.
There may still be hope yet for the possibility of a peaceful and understanding co-existence between Mormons and ... non-mormons (sorry, I refuse to label myself as a "gentile."
I'd like to buy you dinner sometime.
There may still be hope yet for the possibility of a peaceful and understanding co-existence between Mormons and ... non-mormons (sorry, I refuse to label myself as a "gentile."
Truly Sorry | 6:18 p.m. May 29, 2008
Re: dinner on me,
Thanks for your offer. Not everyone is as kind as you.
I hope there will be peace for all the victims, families and their descendants, and a peace of mind for the perpetrators descendants as well. Many perpetrators descendants suffer over this tremendously and what took place 150 years ago. Perhaps we can all come together in love and peace someday.
God's Blessings
Thanks for your offer. Not everyone is as kind as you.
I hope there will be peace for all the victims, families and their descendants, and a peace of mind for the perpetrators descendants as well. Many perpetrators descendants suffer over this tremendously and what took place 150 years ago. Perhaps we can all come together in love and peace someday.
God's Blessings
Ing | 10:27 p.m. May 29, 2008
I was heartened to read the exchange between
Truly Sorry 3:14, dinner's on me! 5:31, Truly Sorry 6:18.
After all the name-calling and venom here, that was a breath of fresh air. It's nice to see that some people are still civil and open-minded.
Everybody else...take a lesson!
Truly Sorry 3:14, dinner's on me! 5:31, Truly Sorry 6:18.
After all the name-calling and venom here, that was a breath of fresh air. It's nice to see that some people are still civil and open-minded.
Everybody else...take a lesson!
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