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Texas fights return of FLDS kids
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Jason | 9:05 p.m. May 24, 2008
All of the CPS workers who were involved in taking these children from their
homes should be taken to jail in handcuffs.
To: Wyogirl | 9:17 p.m. May 24, 2008
an excellent book on history of FLDS is "Under the Banner of Heaven"
by Jon Krakauer.
Anonymous | 9:19 p.m. May 24, 2008
"That fact, the pictures, the statements by members that they obey his
commands, and other evidence, will be enough to overturn the appellate court
ruling."
Wrong. The objection was that the kids were not in IMMINENT danger. There may be plenty danger downstream. But that's not CPS's bailiwick. Looks like Texas has shot themselves in the foot on this one.
Wrong. The objection was that the kids were not in IMMINENT danger. There may be plenty danger downstream. But that's not CPS's bailiwick. Looks like Texas has shot themselves in the foot on this one.
Comments continue below
Reality Check | 9:23 p.m. May 24, 2008
silverman Wrote at: 8:12 p.m. May 24, 2008
... The children should not be allowed to return to their families until EACH AND EVERY family member is investigated and deemed competent. Why people would condone the return of children to pedophiles? I am not saying they all are, but they need to be protected. Until then, keep them where they are! ...
Silverman. Did you actually read what you wrote before you posted ?
You are saying you have no problem with an agency of the government coming to your neighborhood, without any anything more than a suspicion of one, or more, unknown pedophiles, living somewhere in the neighborhood, taking all the children, from each family in the neighborhood, and then "allowing " the parents an opportunity to try to prove they are "competent" to be parents. And by the way if the government likes each parent's answers, maybe, just maybe, the children will be returned in a year - but no promises.
Is that the kind of rule of law you wish to live under, or, would you prefer a little more evidence that a given parent was incompetent before men with guns take kids away.
... The children should not be allowed to return to their families until EACH AND EVERY family member is investigated and deemed competent. Why people would condone the return of children to pedophiles? I am not saying they all are, but they need to be protected. Until then, keep them where they are! ...
Silverman. Did you actually read what you wrote before you posted ?
You are saying you have no problem with an agency of the government coming to your neighborhood, without any anything more than a suspicion of one, or more, unknown pedophiles, living somewhere in the neighborhood, taking all the children, from each family in the neighborhood, and then "allowing " the parents an opportunity to try to prove they are "competent" to be parents. And by the way if the government likes each parent's answers, maybe, just maybe, the children will be returned in a year - but no promises.
Is that the kind of rule of law you wish to live under, or, would you prefer a little more evidence that a given parent was incompetent before men with guns take kids away.
realitycheck | 9:24 p.m. May 24, 2008
Bruce - stop comparing FLDS to catholic priests. It makes you sound like just
another FLDSer making excuses. It's not even close to the same.
Those of you that believe the Supreme court is going to maintain the appellate court ruling are forgetting that there were two warrants served at the ranch. One by CPS and one by the Attorney General. The CPS is who the appellate court ruled on. The criminal investigation is in full swing in the backround - and thats the evidence the Supreme Court is going to see. The lower courts have only seen the CPS evidence, which was slim - on purpose.
The state has just been buying time to put their case together. Lots more to be seen from the state.
Those of you that believe the Supreme court is going to maintain the appellate court ruling are forgetting that there were two warrants served at the ranch. One by CPS and one by the Attorney General. The CPS is who the appellate court ruled on. The criminal investigation is in full swing in the backround - and thats the evidence the Supreme Court is going to see. The lower courts have only seen the CPS evidence, which was slim - on purpose.
The state has just been buying time to put their case together. Lots more to be seen from the state.
realitycheck | 9:34 p.m. May 24, 2008
just an FYI - thats not me at 9:23pm as Reality Check. I totally disagree with
his/her analogy, but then I disagree that every family member needs to be
checked out too.
COSMO | 9:38 p.m. May 24, 2008
Re:wyogirl;There is a very indepth six volume set
of books,Titled" A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
It is very well written and researched.
As far as I understand, the FLDS use the same Book of Mormon as the LDS Church does. Also remember that
after 1890, there was a considerable amount of good,
and honest people committed to their faith and each
other, irrespective of the Reynolds vs U.S. States,
Supreme Court descision. Hope, Faith, and Love are not by nature, logical, and when government gets involved with these dynamics,it usally becomes very
messy. The various Native American Tribes, can testify to this fact. I truly hope this may be of value in you quest. :-)May you find the answers of your heart! :-)
of books,Titled" A Comprehensive History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"
It is very well written and researched.
As far as I understand, the FLDS use the same Book of Mormon as the LDS Church does. Also remember that
after 1890, there was a considerable amount of good,
and honest people committed to their faith and each
other, irrespective of the Reynolds vs U.S. States,
Supreme Court descision. Hope, Faith, and Love are not by nature, logical, and when government gets involved with these dynamics,it usally becomes very
messy. The various Native American Tribes, can testify to this fact. I truly hope this may be of value in you quest. :-)May you find the answers of your heart! :-)
FabricatingStories | 9:37 p.m. May 24, 2008
Michael Savage was right! He said stuff to the effect that these feminist
man-haters that run the Texas CPS would start to fabricate stories once it
became evident they had done wrong.
There is no way the photos prove Warren Jeffs is making out with this girl. They doesn't prove the girls age either. Hopefully the Texas Supreme has some common sense. Besides, if this is true, the photo only proves Jeffs kissed a minor on the lips. The photo doesn't prove they made out. Hardly evidence of anything illegal.
This is clearly a stunt by the CPS to get the public back on their side, because right now, most people don't like them.
The sad truth is, there are a lot of Americans who will fall for this.
There is no way the photos prove Warren Jeffs is making out with this girl. They doesn't prove the girls age either. Hopefully the Texas Supreme has some common sense. Besides, if this is true, the photo only proves Jeffs kissed a minor on the lips. The photo doesn't prove they made out. Hardly evidence of anything illegal.
This is clearly a stunt by the CPS to get the public back on their side, because right now, most people don't like them.
The sad truth is, there are a lot of Americans who will fall for this.
Grasping At Straws | 9:45 p.m. May 24, 2008
There WAS a 13 year old who REFUSED to take a pregnancy test at first, so she
was broadcast across America as pregnant. When she finally consented, they made
her take 5 of them. All negative.
5 test!? You think one or two would be enough. I would sue Texas for slander. This one example shows you how desperate CPS is.
That's just one example. We should all be dying to hear the real story behind this photo.
5 test!? You think one or two would be enough. I would sue Texas for slander. This one example shows you how desperate CPS is.
That's just one example. We should all be dying to hear the real story behind this photo.
wyogirl | 10:09 p.m. May 24, 2008
I've read "under the banner of heaven" but it was quite awhile
ago - long before the Texas mess. Maybe I'll read it again - wasn't
that the one about the murder of a young wife and her baby? Thanks for the
suggestion Cosmo, I'll have to check that series out. Anyone know of
anything written by an FLDS author about their theology since, oh the
1950's? A lot of books explain the break the FLDS took from the LDS church
a hundred years ago, but I can't seem to find too much about them in the
last 50 years, although many books about the various polygamous sects mention
the Short Creek raid.
Reality Check | 10:17 p.m. May 24, 2008
Please keep in mind that just because a Texas Government Agency has taken
children away illegally does not mean that some or many or most FLDS followers
of Warren Jeffs are NOT engaged in, or are not covering up, the same types of
child abuse Warren Jeffs was convicted of.
I for one, am more worried about allowing government agencies to take children away on an emergency basis from all the parents in an entire community/neigborhood/1,700 acre ranch without identifying a single person, by name/relationship/etc, as doing something bad to children at that community/neighborhood/ranch.
I agree that the mass media has left me, and everyone else, with the immpression that is likely happening. But I would like to see some evidence from an informer, or a complaining victim, or survelance or a kicked out teenager or something. The government's case seems to be we all know it is true, wink, wink, so we grabbed all the kids and now we will force them to admit it or they will never get their kids back.
However, they can both be wrong, and starting now the government can follow the law and still locate and convict any FLDS child molesters. Ask_Warren_Jeffs.
I for one, am more worried about allowing government agencies to take children away on an emergency basis from all the parents in an entire community/neigborhood/1,700 acre ranch without identifying a single person, by name/relationship/etc, as doing something bad to children at that community/neighborhood/ranch.
I agree that the mass media has left me, and everyone else, with the immpression that is likely happening. But I would like to see some evidence from an informer, or a complaining victim, or survelance or a kicked out teenager or something. The government's case seems to be we all know it is true, wink, wink, so we grabbed all the kids and now we will force them to admit it or they will never get their kids back.
However, they can both be wrong, and starting now the government can follow the law and still locate and convict any FLDS child molesters. Ask_Warren_Jeffs.
Reality Check Duplicate | 10:33 p.m. May 24, 2008
Sorry about using the same name as someone else.
Did not notice it before I saw the denial.
Again sorry for the confusion
Did not notice it before I saw the denial.
Again sorry for the confusion
Reality Check Duplicate | 10:36 p.m. May 24, 2008
Sorry about using a duplicate name earlier.
I did not see any posts by Reality Check before the denial.
Again sorry for the confusion.
I did not see any posts by Reality Check before the denial.
Again sorry for the confusion.
Waco, The FLDS... Next? | 10:44 p.m. May 24, 2008
I think they should go in there with tanks and torch the compound. Oh, wait.
That was the LAST time they took down a religious group. I keep getting mixed up
on which religion Texas is trying to destroy. They have a great track record in
dealing wiht religious orders that are not Born again Christians from the
"bible belt" of religions.
Re: realitycheck | 11:28 p.m. May 24, 2008
In relation to the comment on two warrants--both agencies have access to all of
the information gathered in the raid. There is no special "Attorney
General only" box. Did you read what the CPS asked for in their warrant?
They even got the kitchen sink;)
In addition, as the CPS so generously informed us in their writ for mandamus to the supreme court, the only evidence which can be considered in these appeals is that which was presented in the April hearing.
Writ
In addition, as the CPS so generously informed us in their writ for mandamus to the supreme court, the only evidence which can be considered in these appeals is that which was presented in the April hearing.
Writ
Anonymous | 11:32 p.m. May 24, 2008
First time in this nation's modern history that law enforcement went in and
handily took all of a community's children into custody without due process
of law for each and every case.
Even the Bagwan's Oregon community didn't experience this kind of CPS run amok stuff, but was handled a child at a time on a case by case basis.
Texas is going to going down hard for this one, not because wrong doing didn't take place, but because like its idiot Bush, didn't do a thorough investigation of the probabilities, ramifications and potential outcomes, but instead went in in a heady, self-righteous and above-the-law fashion to pursue their own myopic agenda.
Texas is going down for this one, just like Bush's legacy is going down for not too different kind of thinking and doing.
An interesting observation when you look at it as a metaphor of how to make a disaster happen in a political environment.
Even the Bagwan's Oregon community didn't experience this kind of CPS run amok stuff, but was handled a child at a time on a case by case basis.
Texas is going to going down hard for this one, not because wrong doing didn't take place, but because like its idiot Bush, didn't do a thorough investigation of the probabilities, ramifications and potential outcomes, but instead went in in a heady, self-righteous and above-the-law fashion to pursue their own myopic agenda.
Texas is going down for this one, just like Bush's legacy is going down for not too different kind of thinking and doing.
An interesting observation when you look at it as a metaphor of how to make a disaster happen in a political environment.
Benjamin | 12:10 a.m. May 25, 2008
I really saddened and concerned by so many hateful and derogatory statements
from BOTH sides of this story. This is not a clear cut situation, by ANY means,
so I think everyone should calm down and let due process occur.
From my perspective, it looks like CPS acted inappropriatly, to an extent. It looks like FLDS have acted inappropriately, to an extent.
So what is fair to both sides? How about this...
Remove any girl into state custody that is 10 years or older. Return all other children. Then conduct the investigation thoroughly. To me it appears as if any young girl approaching puberty is eligible to be married and start producing children.
For all of you who are shouting hatred to CPS, please admit that there are some children in this society that appear to be in imminent danger.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious presecution. This is about laws that appear to be being broken. This is about young girls having no choice in the monumental decisions about marriage and bearing children.
If CPS acted inappropriately, then thank goodness we live in a country where the legal system allows us to eventually sort things out.
From my perspective, it looks like CPS acted inappropriatly, to an extent. It looks like FLDS have acted inappropriately, to an extent.
So what is fair to both sides? How about this...
Remove any girl into state custody that is 10 years or older. Return all other children. Then conduct the investigation thoroughly. To me it appears as if any young girl approaching puberty is eligible to be married and start producing children.
For all of you who are shouting hatred to CPS, please admit that there are some children in this society that appear to be in imminent danger.
This has absolutely NOTHING to do with religious presecution. This is about laws that appear to be being broken. This is about young girls having no choice in the monumental decisions about marriage and bearing children.
If CPS acted inappropriately, then thank goodness we live in a country where the legal system allows us to eventually sort things out.
Re: Benjamin | 1:06 a.m. May 25, 2008
I, for one, agree with the appeals court that there has been no evidence
presented any of the girls are in imminent danger. Further, I don't
believe any of them would be in danger while these cases are being investigated.
In the long run, there is no credible evidence any residents at the Texas compound are getting married at 14 or under. Even 15 is a statistical outlier. Remove those 10 or older from their families? Cut the baby in half, indeed.
Meanwhile, CPS in inflicting real harm on the children(especially the small ones) by separating them from CPS-admitted caring mothers. Those children now share 67 years of foster care between them. Now THAT deserves the monumental designation. Sort things out? Stop the outrage and curb the power of the do-gooders.
Writ
In the long run, there is no credible evidence any residents at the Texas compound are getting married at 14 or under. Even 15 is a statistical outlier. Remove those 10 or older from their families? Cut the baby in half, indeed.
Meanwhile, CPS in inflicting real harm on the children(especially the small ones) by separating them from CPS-admitted caring mothers. Those children now share 67 years of foster care between them. Now THAT deserves the monumental designation. Sort things out? Stop the outrage and curb the power of the do-gooders.
Writ
ed | 1:45 a.m. May 26, 2008
The Texas Dept. of Family Services, like many of its counterparts across the
nation, thinks it is above the law and can trample constitutional rights with
impunity! It is about time to make these agencies liable to civil suit and its
individual agents liable to criminal prosecution! I find the Texas DFS argument
to the court that the children are in danger because the men at the compound
refuse to admit they are doing anything wrong to be laughable at the least, and
enraging at the most. It follows their same line of illegality all along...take
children without evidence of harm; use an accusation against one individual as a
basis to act against and entire community; refuse to return the children because
there is no one who will admit to wrong-doing! How about that for an argument!
"Your honor, we won't return the children because we have no evidence
of abuse and no one will admit abusing the children."
Texas DFS is toast! They have no case; they never had one. They ought to be reigned-in by the court and become subject to severe penalties for their outrageous and unconstitutional conduct.
Texas DFS is toast! They have no case; they never had one. They ought to be reigned-in by the court and become subject to severe penalties for their outrageous and unconstitutional conduct.
Stay in the Real World | 1:10 p.m. May 26, 2008
This investigation is going to continue.
The only question is: Will some ( or all ) the children stay in the hands of the CPS or will they be returned to their mothers while the investigation continues.
The evidence collected at the ranch and the DNA evidence is still valid even if the kid's are returned. The only problem with the case the appeals court had was the court order to remove the kids on an emergency, urgent, and temporary basis before the investigation and a final court decision about permanent custody is made.
The family court can and will, order the children and parents to remain in the state of Texas while the investigation and court hearings continue. If they break the court order and flee that is grounds for bringing them back and removing the kids from them.
Only if the Texas CPS is to lazy to try and prove their case the old fashion way: by obtaining the witnesses, physical evidence, and documents to back up the DNA results will this case end anytime soon.
FLDS men who have immpregnated underage girls and have multiple "spirtual" wives must choose - felony child rape / felony poligamy.
Stay in the Real World | 1:38 p.m. May 26, 2008
The way the Texas CPS has attempted to protect children living on a large ranch in Texas is dipicable and dishonest.
CPS actions include violating the equal protection rights of members of one particular religion who live on that ranch and illegally ( according to a Texas appeals court who has had the final decision so far ) taken very young children ( five and under ) who were clearly not in any immediate physical danger requiring urgent protection ( again according to the appeals court).
Apparently Texas CPS was trying to use the children they had taken, and the mothers hope of getting their children back, as leverage to gain cooperation and admissions of wrong doing from the mothers and fathers of the children.
As bad as the methods used were, the goal of protecting children on this ranch was a good one.
There are many valid reasons to suspect sexual relations with underage girls ( 13, 14, 15 ) have taken place there and may be continuing. It is also reasonable to suspect Felony Poligamy and/or Child Rape has occured.
Texas needs the courage to legally hold all the bad actors fully accountable, judges, CPS officials, FLDS_Felons.
To: Benjamin | 2:43 p.m. May 26, 2008
All very good points. Especially regarding extreme positions for or against the
FLDS and/or CPS.
I do not believe your solution was in the hands of the appeals court.
They did not have the power to modify the trial courts order regarding custody - only to force the trial court judge to vacate that order by "mandamus".
In the perfect world, I believe your solution would have been the farthest anyone could go in trying to err on the side of caution given the lack of evidence. In my opinion the extreme actions by CPS and the trial judge has placed the trial court in a tuff place. Not sure how they keep even girls 10 and under in CPS temporary custody before final judgment. New evidence might allow another hearing for emergency temporary CPS custody.
I do not believe your solution was in the hands of the appeals court.
They did not have the power to modify the trial courts order regarding custody - only to force the trial court judge to vacate that order by "mandamus".
In the perfect world, I believe your solution would have been the farthest anyone could go in trying to err on the side of caution given the lack of evidence. In my opinion the extreme actions by CPS and the trial judge has placed the trial court in a tuff place. Not sure how they keep even girls 10 and under in CPS temporary custody before final judgment. New evidence might allow another hearing for emergency temporary CPS custody.
Bill | 9:15 p.m. May 26, 2008
These "child protectors" all over the country only know how to use
lies, manipulation, and deceit to supposedly "protect" children...
And protect them from who(m)?
** Why aren't they raiding high schools all over Texas and rouding up the pregnant teens?
** Part of their response is that because they didn't ADMIT to abuse, it IS abuse? Orwellian Newspeak insanity from the uber-socialists...
We're from the government, we're the "parent police" and we're here to take your children!
** Why aren't they raiding high schools all over Texas and rouding up the pregnant teens?
** Part of their response is that because they didn't ADMIT to abuse, it IS abuse? Orwellian Newspeak insanity from the uber-socialists...
We're from the government, we're the "parent police" and we're here to take your children!
Lovingmom | 10:41 p.m. May 26, 2008
Reminds me of that town in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang where the children lived in
the sewers because the evil King had them rounded up and imprisoned. The child
catcher came with candy and lollipops and locked them in a cage. GEE..
Didn't realize that was USA when I saw that movie. Cannot believe this is
what our country has become.
Living somewhere else.
Living somewhere else.
ROB | 5:40 a.m. May 27, 2008
NOTICE SOME OF THE BUSES FOR TRANSPORT WERE BAPTIST CHURCH BUSES?
InTheNameOfChildren | 8:36 p.m. May 27, 2008
Approximately one in three girls in the USA is molested as a child.
Given that information, I think what the US government needs to do is, take all the children from every single family in the USA. Then the government needs to investigate each family individually to make sure that there is no child abuse going on. No child shall be returned until it has been proven that there is no abuse going on! We need to protect the children. Military style raids should be justified! Martial law should be initiated so we can protect the children from all the child molesters in the USA!
Do you think this is extreme? While the statements above are meant as a joke, it's what Texas is doing to these FLDS members right now. It is also the mentality of those who support the raid.
Texas needs to return these children right now! They can still investigate the allegations without ripping every last child from their parents.
Given that information, I think what the US government needs to do is, take all the children from every single family in the USA. Then the government needs to investigate each family individually to make sure that there is no child abuse going on. No child shall be returned until it has been proven that there is no abuse going on! We need to protect the children. Military style raids should be justified! Martial law should be initiated so we can protect the children from all the child molesters in the USA!
Do you think this is extreme? While the statements above are meant as a joke, it's what Texas is doing to these FLDS members right now. It is also the mentality of those who support the raid.
Texas needs to return these children right now! They can still investigate the allegations without ripping every last child from their parents.
Con Cerned American | 9:50 a.m. May 29, 2008
FLDS beleive in the Bible, the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants
precisely as they read. Go ahead and find out anything to the contrary in how
they live, including long hair and keeping their bodies covered. They are
trying to "LIVE AS CHRIST LIVED", not just believe in Christ.
Texas is attacking religious freedom in America. Notice our governemnt taking the Ten Commandments out of the courthouses, "IN GOD WE TRUST" off the money, prayer out of our schools. Our nation is becoming anti-Christ. They will attack any religion that professes to believe in Christ sooner or later. ARE YOU NEXT? When will they come for you Babist? or you Methodist? or you LDS?
The german Swastika is a symbol of a broken cross. In other words anti-Christ! What has happened at YFZ is frighteningly parallel to the Natzi movement. WAKEUP AMERICA!! All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Will you stand by and watch your fellow Americans lives and freedoms destroyed? Fine then, sit back and wait your turn.
Texas is attacking religious freedom in America. Notice our governemnt taking the Ten Commandments out of the courthouses, "IN GOD WE TRUST" off the money, prayer out of our schools. Our nation is becoming anti-Christ. They will attack any religion that professes to believe in Christ sooner or later. ARE YOU NEXT? When will they come for you Babist? or you Methodist? or you LDS?
The german Swastika is a symbol of a broken cross. In other words anti-Christ! What has happened at YFZ is frighteningly parallel to the Natzi movement. WAKEUP AMERICA!! All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Will you stand by and watch your fellow Americans lives and freedoms destroyed? Fine then, sit back and wait your turn.
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