Deseret News | Reader comments: FLDS mother victorious in court

Reader comments
FLDS mother victorious in court

tl | 4:28 a.m. May 17, 2008

Excellent! Doesn't this show that the justice system is working?

Rubber stamp judges | 5:10 a.m. May 17, 2008

"Authorities are still investigating if the original call was a hoax..."

Why this tired sentence every time? The whole thing is a hoax, including these hearings. It's a rubber stamp of the execrable CPS.

This is a victory? | 5:17 a.m. May 17, 2008

Is this the best her lawyers could do? It's like Nazis saying a mother can accompany her children on the cattle car.

Comments continue below

bartleby | 5:25 a.m. May 17, 2008

Give the children back to their rightful parents. Stop the abuse of children and families now. CPS is kidnapping children every day, in every state, often on the basis of an anonymous phone call.

Anyone with children needs to be very alarmed - this could happen to you - please act now to end the tyranny of CPS. Contact everyone you know and let them know about CPS (do some research on the Internet, you will quickly see how corrupt and Gestapo-like they are).

Start a blog, start a petition, tell your elected officials that unless they support parent's rights, and abolish CPS you will not vote for them, do something before it is too late, and they have kidnapped your child or baby and sent them to an abusive foster home.

bartleby | 5:30 a.m. May 17, 2008

How much better off would the FLDS children be we their parents???? Take a look at these stats:

Children died as a result of abuse in foster care 5.25 times more often than children in the general population. 2.1 percent of all child fatalities took place in foster care. While this may seem like a relatively low number, we must consider the contrast in population between children in the general population versus children in foster care. In 1997, there were nearly 71 million children in the general population (99.6%), but only 302 thousand in state care (.4%) in state care. As state care is supposed to be a 'safe haven', the number of fatalities should be less or at least equal to what it is in the general population of children. By this standard, there should have been less than .4% of child fatalities occurring in foster care, however, there was 5.25 times that amount. (31 states reporting)

*CPS Watch Inc.

Thomas | 5:38 a.m. May 17, 2008

CPS needs to admit the obvious. A majority of the so-called underage mothers are adults. Let the children go home.

John Jankerson | 8:34 a.m. May 17, 2008

I sure hope that those children are returned to their parents. I can tell there is NO abuse. I know it. Texas has done wrong in taking those children. The constitution says religious freedom.

Do the Math | 10:03 a.m. May 17, 2008

Do the math. If this mother IS 18 and has a 3 yr old....so she gave birth before the age of 16? Hello!!!

to: do the math | 10:46 a.m. May 17, 2008

If the husband is within the age limit and there was parental consent it is still legal even if was after they changed the law

realitycheck | 10:55 a.m. May 17, 2008

I'm sure everyone would have no problem giving the children back to the mothers once they agree not to return to the prison - I mean compound - and live amongst the rest of us. In full view, no hiding, no weird stuff going on. No one cares if you have multiple wives or wear weird clothes. We only care that your children not be hidden and they not be taught that everything is evil and if you go out then you can never come back. That they have as much opportunity as possible to do great things in the world. Some of these kids could be great, you know?

Just take them out and about. Let them see the world. We are not all bad people out here, and you may be suprised how kind humanity really is, when we aren't worried about our young citizens. And you can teach us kindness.

Come on - don't be scared. We're not as bad as you think. We're just worried about the freedoms being taken from the youngsters.

protectchildren | 11:11 a.m. May 17, 2008

Everyone has known about the abuse these poor children have suffered at the hands of their 'parents' for years. I am so glad that CPS is finally doing their job!! Protect the children!!

RE: realitycheck | 11:26 a.m. May 17, 2008

When I read your post I know what you are saying, but when I see what has happened to these children I only see that we have proved thier parents right. We did do evil to them, I don't care if it was a good intention it went sour fast and is going rotton now. GIVE THE CHILDREN BACK NOW and then work out solutions.

Notinmyname | 11:39 a.m. May 17, 2008

Taking children from non abusive parents is kidnapping. CPS should meet a higher standard of evidence before they take children. CPS should also be forced to become humane towards the children for whom they are reponsible. This case has highlighted all that is wrong with CPS.

JusticeNeeded | 11:52 a.m. May 17, 2008

I'm fine with CPS doing their job as long as they do it in a professional and just manner. If there is evidence of sexual abuse, then CPS should investigate it and deal with the particular individuals involved. The above court action shows that CPS has gone well & way beyond any justified action whatsoever. It's a modern day SS / Gestapo organization. In this case they have done much much more harm than good. I don't agree at all with the FLDS ideas or way of life and any underage sexual practices must be stopped. At the same time that doesn't mean I think their kids should be abused at the hands of the CPS, which is exactly what has been going on. Taking kids away from parents is extreme abuse ... it's an emotional beating at the hands of the state. This kids are going to be scarred for life thanks to the lack of judgment on the part of CPS.

An FLDS Mother | 1:16 p.m. May 17, 2008

realitycheck: We don't call gated communities prisons or compounds.... or do you? YFZ "Ranch" is a gated community. Don't listen to media, its ALL lies. We don't teach the children that EVERYTHING is evil. But we do teach them to keep their bodies covered. Why should we take them out in public to see naked bodies with tatoos and piercings, parents yelling at and hitting their children? Why show them all the trash on TV, sex, abuse, murder?
We do take them out and about. They see some people are nice and good. But they also know, there are plenty of people out there that want to hurt them. Plenty have come into Colorado City and shown the children their true colors. Yell hate things at them, try to climb the fence into the yard saying, "I'm going to get you." and other things.Terrifying the children.
Yes, we teach them to be kind and that we ALL are Heavenly Fathers children and he loves us ALL. We teach them to pray for everyone even those that don't like us. We know that there are good people out there, some are even good friends we know.

Anonymous | 2:34 p.m. May 17, 2008

To: realitycheck
"Come on - don't be scared. We're not as bad as you think."

You violate peoples civil rights, detain them without cause, treat them like animals, abuse the to the point that an infant almost died. And then you tell them don't be scared, you're not as bad as they think.

Listen buddy, I can assure you, they gave you A LOT more credit than you deserved. You turned out to by ASTOUNDINGLY WORSE than they ever imagined.

DD | 4:54 p.m. May 17, 2008

The real problem here is that the State of Texas abused its power. They didn't have sufficient evidence to justify the sweeping action that they took. Even if they eventually get that evidence they still had the cart ahead of the horse at the time. This shouldn't happen in America.

realitycheck | 5:24 p.m. May 17, 2008

to Anonymous and the mom:
dear mom - i understand what you are saying. I don't disagree and I don't have an answer. But you must understand - in "protecting" your children from the "evils" of the world, you are also removing their ability to have a different future. A future of their own choosing. So while I know you truly believe what you are doing is best for your children, you are in fact just ensuring they are just like you, rather than to be their own person. Mind you, that's just my opinion - but rest assured it's also the opinion of the people that took your children, and 95% of America too.

There must be a happy medium you can achieve that allows your children to "spread their wings" yet maintains your vigorous religion. Work it out, girl. We all want you to be sucessful.

Bill Hoffmann | 5:29 p.m. May 17, 2008

Taking children away from parents is wrong. Taking away civil and religious rights is wrong, It is abuse of power. Taking daughters from their homes and giving them physical examinations to see if they have been sexually active is horrible. Who did it; where did the examination take place? I said nothing when it was the Jews and then it was me. Bill a Mormon from Texas. LDS

realitycheck | 6:13 p.m. May 17, 2008

to Anonymous -
I understand that CPS has caused you untold grief. For that, I am truly sorry. But throughout history people have done the wrong thing in the name of freedom. CPS (and I - and most Americans) believe that the women and children were being led down a path of perpetual servitude.
If you all would just not try to hide, I seriously doubt any of this would have happened. And for the record, most Americans don't care how many wives and children you have - only that they are happy and free to choose their future.

I am not your enemy. Your enemy is the shadows...

BlueEyedDevil | 7:38 p.m. May 17, 2008

"Plans of Service", eh? Community "Service" is a punishment in lieu of a fine or jail time FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN FOUND GUILTY!!!

The individual "hearings" are NOT going to be for the purpose of determining guilt or innocence, and then returning the children IMMEDIATELY if the finding is innocent. There will be NO OPPORTUNITY for the mothers to prove their innocence of abuse charges. They have already been declared GUILTY - and not even guilty until proven innocent, but guilty WITHOUT ANY CHANCE to prove their innocence. This is as far removed as you can get from the American principle of INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.

Yo - blueeyed | 7:57 p.m. May 17, 2008

it's not community service, it's service plans explaining what the mothers have to do to get their children back. They won't be that difficult - for an average american.

realitycheck | 8:17 p.m. May 17, 2008

My wife just asked me what I was writing and I told her what was going on with the children. She hasn't been keeping up on this topic so its an impartial view. She just looked out the window and said,

"Making babies shouldn't be the only career choice for those girls."

Couldn't believe she it summed up the whole issue in one sentence like that. And trust me - she's about the most impartial person you will ever meet.

BlueEyedDevil | 11:51 p.m. May 17, 2008

The "hearings" are not for the purpose of hearing from the mothers. They are for the purpose of the mothers hearing from the judge what their "SERVICE plans" are going to be. In other words they are totally PRESUMED already to be guilty, and these sham "hearings" are really sentencings.

They are solely for the purpose of assigning penances to the mothers, in the form of telling them what they will be required to do in order to cleanse themselves of the GUILT which the State of Texas has decided, WITHOUT A TRIAL, that they have. Meanwhile the State of Texas will continue to keep their children until and unless it is satisfied that they have purified themselves of their GUILT by, among other things, renouncing their religious beliefs.

The State of Texas needs to stop pretending like there is EVER going to be any justice for these FLDS families and, having already ripped their hearts out, just burn these mothers at the stake and get it over with.

BlueEyedDevil | 12:19 a.m. May 18, 2008

"Making babies shouldn't be the only career choice for those girls."

Yes, it's all about feminism and women's "liberation."

The corporate, banking, academic, political, and media power-elite have two main reasons for wanting to stampede the country into raising the marriage age ever higher.

First, it decreases the number of women who will be raising children and who would therefore not be as available to become part of the workforce, thereby leading to a reduction in productivity (for businesses) and tax revenues (for governments).

Second, it helps to keep the middle class population from increasing. And since the ghetto poor will ignore any marriage age requirements - and be rewarded for doing so - it furthers the agenda of eliminating a potentially resistive white middle class, so that the elite can consolidate their position of power over a population of pliant black and brown serfs.

not rocket science | 1:38 a.m. May 18, 2008

blueeyeddevil - the hearings are to determine whether the women can put the children into a safe environment, which is certainly not going to be at that compound. But they can certainly get them back by following some very simple rules - which most of us live by every day. It's not rocket science.

Guess y'all will just have to be normal folk like the rest of us. Oh - the horror of it!!!!!

fuzzy | 5:51 a.m. May 18, 2008

I have heard a little about Mormons here and there through out my 50 years here on earth. I knew a little about how they believed, and honestly I felt that if they were OK with it. It was fine with me. Then this comes up, and so I wonder, and I have watched what was being said. I look at pictures of the FLDS people, and their home, and then I look at my own enviroment. In stores like Wal-mart, or malls I see young girls, and women dressed in tight, and reveling clothes, and many times less than that. In the rare times I watch a TV (I have not owned one since 1972) I see a preponderance of sexualy suggestive shows, and commercials. Even the news brodcasts seem to feel a need to have beautiful women to air our dirty laundry.

Today I read this. "Pastor: minister arrested in sex sting resigned" A Baptist from Texas of all places.

So I look at the FLDS folks, and I don't see the sex thing promoted like we do. Their women are proper. Their familys extended. I think we should be more like them than they like us.

BlueEyedDevil | 8:34 a.m. May 18, 2008

Having one's children taken away is a PUNISHMENT.
A government which follows DUE PROCESS cannot administer a punishment to someone who has not been PROVEN guilty of a CRIME. "Due Process" means proceeding in the following order:

1. Arrest
2. Charge
3. Try

then, if found guilty:

4. Sentence
5. Punish

or, if found innocent:

4. Free

In the case of the FLDS families, Texas has gone straight from 1 to 4 and 5, skipping 2 and 3 altogether! No CHARGES have been filed, and there will be no trial to establish guilt or innocence before imposing punishments. There is only an unchallengeable ASSIGNMENT of guilt by the state.

The founding fathers would be appalled at our terminology. "SERVICE plans." So who are they SERVING? Whose SLAVES are they that they can have their personal privacy blatantly invaded in every conceivable way? Our wonderful DemocoFASCIST government's of course.

re - fuzzy | 8:57 a.m. May 18, 2008

well, if you haven't owned a TV since 1972, I would expect you to want everyone to be like these people, since you are like them. But - welcome to the 21st century. And while you may not have a TV, is it fair to GUARENTEE that these kids will never have one, ever, simply because that's the way the parents decided their lives should be? You're not protecting them, you're denying them.

What if one of the boys wants to be a professional dirt bike racer? What if one of the girls wants to be a doctor or scientist? What if (heaven forbid) one of them wants to get a tattoo? - but for that one simple act, they are banished forever from their family. Thats not a family bond, thats a religious zealosy - it's fanticism. When religion is more important than the children, that's wrong. And thats where the FLDS stands. They shouldn't be suprised at CPS heavy-handedness since both groups have the same mindset... - my way or the highway - no middle ground.

No one likes a fanatic......

lifeethics.org | 10:47 a.m. May 18, 2008

We in Texas raised our age of consent in order to make the parental notification and consent in the State consistent. We had 3 different codes prior to 2005, one for the Family code, one for the criminal and marriage certificates. Sexual predators were getting girls pregnant, then dumping them at the abortion clinic and the clinic workers weren't reporting, using the different versions of the law as an excuse.

Furthermore, I know that the authorities were recruiting women doctors to take care of the children, and that most of the work was done by San Angelo doctors who volunteered even before I could.

re - blueeyeddevil | 10:47 a.m. May 18, 2008

if you're going to mention slaves, then make sure you point out that the FLDS had their own little women and children slave thing going on (including trading slaves for favors.)

Anonymous | 9:21 p.m. May 18, 2008

Taking girls to be examined by respectful female doctors and nurses, to see if they are pregnant, have special medical needs, or if they have been sexually abused, is not "horrible," it's what you have to do when there are allegations of sexual abuse.

What's horrible is to force a girl under 16 to marry a man twice her age and have sex whether she wants to or not.

titania | 9:24 p.m. May 18, 2008

These women & children are "reassigned" at the Prophet's whim. Anytime he decides a man's not righteous enough to deserve the highest degree of heaven, that whole family gets reassigned.

And enough of these Nazi comparisons. The Nazis were out to kill the Jews. Nobody wants to harm these children or their parents--quite the opposite. Taking the kids isn't a "punishment," it's a precaution. If Sarah had turned out to be real, you'd all be criticizing CPS for reacting too slowly.

Donna Holtin | 11:26 a.m. May 19, 2008

Of All the letters I've read here, I would like to respond to "Reality Check". Believe me, those children have NOW entered OUR world. They've probably been exposed to more shocking knowledge about sexual things, than they've ever seen in their lives. They are in foster homes, where even though most are good, many are not. It's wrong, wrong, wrong to take ALL of those children from their homes. Why didn't the police go in and check the homes...ask the questions and do real "police work" instead of going in those homes like Nazis. I'm not a FLDS, I am a member of the Church of God, but I tell you if this is how our government is doing things now...we'd better ALL watch out!!

Nicole | 12:56 p.m. May 19, 2008

I agree that girls should not be raised to become young women who lie down on their backs whenever their husband commands them to or risk being given heavy chores or no desert if they refuse to.

This is America. People can be different but must be raised to know that they have a choice which means-a birth certificate, not being told that 'everything' and 'everyone' outside their ranch is evil.

It seems to me that the FLDS would like to be considered their own country. Even some oppressive countries allow their citizens to come to America.

realitycheck | 1:31 p.m. May 19, 2008

to Donna -
first - they did check out the home - it's all one home - one address.
second - well, it's good they're seeing the real world, although it may be temporary - hopefully they will remember it. Maybe they'll get to see a movie (Transformers is great for the teens) and remember that it was FUN! They may see a career that they would like (other than making babies).
Can't believe some of you "moms" find it acceptable that the child's whole future is already set - to be lived inside a compound with no glimpse of all life (and the world) has to offer - that's just aweful. To those parents that find this acceptable - in keeping your children in that compound, you are putting your children in your homemade prison with little hope of escape. Hope you can live with yourselves.

to realitycheck | 2:50 p.m. May 19, 2008

"And trust me - she's about the most impartial person you will ever meet."

I trust you. But most likely I will never meet he.

to realitycheck | 2:54 p.m. May 19, 2008

went to my kids's dance school ballet performance this weekend. I thought you might want all FLDS kids, girls especially, to be forced to take a year of ballet school, complete with a performance on stage in front of a 1000 people. Nothing quite as liberating as those tutus. Literally. You might like to try it too.

realitycheck | 7:47 p.m. May 19, 2008

to the ballet comment -
I would hate for the children to be forced to take ballet lesons. But if she (or he!) wanted to, and you can afford it, then great!

But don't deny them from ever even SEEING ballet. That's the problem with the Texas compound - the kids would never even know what ballet is....

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