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FLDS trust demands evidence from raid
35 comments | Read story
Interesting | 7:21 a.m. May 16, 2008
Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Will be even more interesting to
see if and when the IRS becomes involved, especially in regards to their
companies with government contracts, etc.
me | 7:25 a.m. May 16, 2008
Let wolfs fight among wolfs.
Comments continue below
Hmmm... | 7:47 a.m. May 16, 2008
When the legal maneuvers are done, only the attorneys will have tha money and/or
property.
So Sad | 8:06 a.m. May 16, 2008
There is no doubt that by the time this is all said and done, all of the
trust's assets, as well as any assets of individual FLDS faithful who
continue to fight, will have been eaten up in legal fees. I have no sympathy
for the misery that the FLDS have brought upon themselves, but I do have
sympathy for the innocent children, either in the care of their families or in
the care of CPS--it's a no-win for them either way. I just pray that they
stay strong and develop minds that allow them to think for themselves so that
they don't repeat the mistakes of their elders. And I also pray that the
FLDS leadership can overcome their own pride and recognize the consequences that
will befall them and their families if they continue to use fear as a means of
control and lying and hiding as a means to escape punishment for their
wrongdoing. God can see their hearts.
take the ranch | 8:53 a.m. May 16, 2008
I hope they take the ranch for the $8.8M lawsuit. Then these people will have
to live amongst us, get real jobs, see the real world. The women and children
will have options on how they live and grow up, and we can leave these people
alone.
See, no one really cares that these people have multiple wives - no one would even notice out in the real world. But we do mind the women and children having no options in lifeand being brainwashed into servitude. That's gotta stop.
See, no one really cares that these people have multiple wives - no one would even notice out in the real world. But we do mind the women and children having no options in lifeand being brainwashed into servitude. That's gotta stop.
David the Ex-mo | 9:41 a.m. May 16, 2008
I'm confused. The TX authorities went onto the compound because of a fake
phone call. Ultimately the "victim" was found not to be LDS and the
"husband's" warrant was set aside. Then there was the claim of
abuse, but it seems the FLDS have a lower than average number of broken bones.
Then they tried the underage girls issue to find that CPS was listing adults
women as children. Then there was the welfare fraud they were committing until
the welfare department announced that nobody on the compound received welfare
benefits. Now they are doing a fishing expedition on their finances? Is this
really the American justice that we believe in? It appears more of a witch
hunt.
Dear D | 9:46 a.m. May 16, 2008
The FLDS should be quite nervous. If they conspired to create a place wherein
children would be abused, then yes they'd lose their property. Much like
drug dealers can lose cars and houses involved in the deal.
To: D | 10:02 a.m. May 16, 2008
I guess you can't read very well. IT'S THE TRUST not the state of
Texas that is trying to settle it's ever more complex and dire
situation.
But of course you don't REALLY *think* about what you post, do you?
But of course you don't REALLY *think* about what you post, do you?
To - D | 10:07 a.m. May 16, 2008
Yes - I agree. The Lord will take matters into His own hands and His judgements
WILL be different from Judge Walthers.
The judge simply released the women and children from servitude.
The Lord will rain down upon the men of FLDS with a wrath unknown to thee. They will be punished beyond their understanding, and they will kneel before the Lord and ask "why?"
And the Lord shall say unto them - You have preyed upon multitudes of women and children in my name, for your own satisfaction, and thus your souls shall pay for it unto eternity.
Good luck, guys. You will need it.
The judge simply released the women and children from servitude.
The Lord will rain down upon the men of FLDS with a wrath unknown to thee. They will be punished beyond their understanding, and they will kneel before the Lord and ask "why?"
And the Lord shall say unto them - You have preyed upon multitudes of women and children in my name, for your own satisfaction, and thus your souls shall pay for it unto eternity.
Good luck, guys. You will need it.
Sandy & Family | 10:26 a.m. May 16, 2008
It is closed minded judges like some making comments that will take our rights
next. Cut to the chase their finances are no ones business, at least it is not
drug money or something like that. Are you perfect? Is your religion the right
one or do you have one at all? We are not taking the catholics kids because
they are raised to trust the priest,which there is one under investigation
presently for child abuse. We are not taking the homosexuals kids that are
going to be so confused when they grow up they will not even know what is right
and normal. Face it many people have decided to believe all our media crap and
most of it has been a lie. I guess you people really need drama in your
lives!!!! Now they will take my children next because I teach them the Bible
and many things you don't speak out against these days but you want to
target this group because you have decided you don't like them!! If you
have kids then maybe you should lose them so you don't program them to be
closed minded.
Anon | 10:33 a.m. May 16, 2008
Get your facts straight and read the story again. It is not the state of Texas
serving subpoenas but Bruce Wisan, special fiduciary of the UEP Trust. He was
appointed to that position by the courts in Utah.
take the ranch | 10:48 a.m. May 16, 2008
they should take the ranch, and then the women and children can live amongst us
and have true options in life. What the FLDS fails to understand is that really
no one cares if they have multiple wives, as long as they are adults and have
other options if they so desire. Its the lack of options forced upon these
women and children that has all reasonable Americans in an uproar. This is
America, people - free the women and children.
J-man | 11:46 a.m. May 16, 2008
To So Sad:
You hit the nail on the head. These people have been misled and are now paying the price for the misconduct and corruption of their leadership.
Instead of taking responsibility for their actions, their leaders have fled, thus leaving the women to take the heat. That provides a snapshot to the character of these men.
You hit the nail on the head. These people have been misled and are now paying the price for the misconduct and corruption of their leadership.
Instead of taking responsibility for their actions, their leaders have fled, thus leaving the women to take the heat. That provides a snapshot to the character of these men.
All about the Benjamins | 11:56 a.m. May 16, 2008
Ahhh...once money starts getting involved something tells me Jeffs will start to
have some revelations. Suddendly we'll see the reinstatement of pets, the
color red and toys. Women will be allowed to wear pants and shirts and cut their
hair if they choose. Oh, and no more underage marriages.
To sandy | 11:57 a.m. May 16, 2008
they are not taking catholic kids because they are free to choose their own path
as they grow up. They are taking the FLDS kids because they have been given no
choices and were trapped behind 10 ft walls and a guardtower. See the
difference? You teach your children the bible, but as they grow up they are
free to make different choices on their beliefs and their lives. My assumption
is that you don't "program them to be closed-minded." Good for
you. You should wish the same for these poor women and children.
fincenMIB | 2:13 p.m. May 16, 2008
Sales the ranch, pay Wisan the 8 million he is owed, pay Texas the 7.5 million
it cost them to provide services and let Texas bill Arizona and Utah for the
additional cost.
Then we should oust the 5 FLDS members and 3 Independents that continue posting here and on another 2 dozen blogs. The FLDS women are on the front lines, while the low life scum sucking male perverts on on line pretending to be outraged private citizens.
There names are already getting passed around the internet. Just look at the ranch in Mancos Colorado. it has a satelite dish on the roof, a big one! Warren didn't allow TV or Interbet, but the ranches all have access now. Who do you think is defending them?
Look at this simple logic, how many children could you afford? How much do you make? Do you drive a new 4X4 Diesel truck & why not? The FLDS make less $$$ than you and those on the ranches have 30-60 children. Many are builders of Zion, so where does the money come from? If you can't afford, neither can they, god gave you a brain does 2+2 + 3??
Then we should oust the 5 FLDS members and 3 Independents that continue posting here and on another 2 dozen blogs. The FLDS women are on the front lines, while the low life scum sucking male perverts on on line pretending to be outraged private citizens.
There names are already getting passed around the internet. Just look at the ranch in Mancos Colorado. it has a satelite dish on the roof, a big one! Warren didn't allow TV or Interbet, but the ranches all have access now. Who do you think is defending them?
Look at this simple logic, how many children could you afford? How much do you make? Do you drive a new 4X4 Diesel truck & why not? The FLDS make less $$$ than you and those on the ranches have 30-60 children. Many are builders of Zion, so where does the money come from? If you can't afford, neither can they, god gave you a brain does 2+2 + 3??
well, well | 3:48 p.m. May 16, 2008
"The trust is now experiencing a serious cash crunch,". Wisan's
lawyers are owed about $575,000 and his own accounting firm hasn't been
paid since April 2007.
Let me see who is mismanaging the fund. Did it exprience such problems before this guy took over it ? And of course lawyers are the ones who make hundreds of thousand.
Sure, take away the ranch. Throw these people on the street, let them expperience the wealth of choices open to them. When did it become illegal to live in a shared group ? Does not look like they were doing badly when left alone. Hard work, folks. Kids look fed and clothed. You figure they will do better in your world ? Why do so many people seem to say that everyone should be like them ? What makes people so mean ? What are they afraid of ?
And no criminal charges have been presented. Is this becoming the American way ? "You are not guilty of anything, you can go freely. But we are going to confiscate your home and take away your chidren. Administrative order, no appeal. And you there, you are underage until we grab the baby". Scary.
Let me see who is mismanaging the fund. Did it exprience such problems before this guy took over it ? And of course lawyers are the ones who make hundreds of thousand.
Sure, take away the ranch. Throw these people on the street, let them expperience the wealth of choices open to them. When did it become illegal to live in a shared group ? Does not look like they were doing badly when left alone. Hard work, folks. Kids look fed and clothed. You figure they will do better in your world ? Why do so many people seem to say that everyone should be like them ? What makes people so mean ? What are they afraid of ?
And no criminal charges have been presented. Is this becoming the American way ? "You are not guilty of anything, you can go freely. But we are going to confiscate your home and take away your chidren. Administrative order, no appeal. And you there, you are underage until we grab the baby". Scary.
to David the Ex-mo | 3:57 p.m. May 16, 2008
next thing, they will be accused of poor personal hygiene. Go prove you are not
guilty of that. Or mental confusion. They will have to agree to
"plans" formulated by the CPS that will require them to prove that
they have a safe residence (who will approve of the safety ? Your guess is as
good as mine, and I don't think that living on the ranch will cut it.).
They will have to prove they have financial means to support their children.
Here taking away their funds will be exteremely critical. Yes, they live in an
unusual financial setting. So what ?
Assault on their finances is likely also intended to starve them of their recources to fight back. Well, they do have a Donate page on their site captivefldschildren dot org. Everyone can help them fight the legal battle - and it will be horrendously expensive (you are already financing the CPS lawyers after all). Let us all see what else comes out of the woodwork. On both sides of this argument.
Assault on their finances is likely also intended to starve them of their recources to fight back. Well, they do have a Donate page on their site captivefldschildren dot org. Everyone can help them fight the legal battle - and it will be horrendously expensive (you are already financing the CPS lawyers after all). Let us all see what else comes out of the woodwork. On both sides of this argument.
transplant | 4:08 p.m. May 16, 2008
These people are either the dumbest most short sighted people since the Mafia or
the cleverest people ever at using the system. There are plenty of assests
hidden in plain site but untouchable as constructed. It must be better
constructed than the Enron tangled web with all their highly paid sic financial
professionals.
to To sandy | 4:07 p.m. May 16, 2008
Honestly none of us knows any of these things you are stating as facts. Unless
you have lived within these people you don't know what their choices and
freedoms are. If they believe their religion and lifestyle so strongly, I guess
it had to be impressed on them at some point. I may not like this personally,
but then what is our argument agains that ? Are we saying then no one should be
taking their religion seriously ? That like much of the nominally Christian
folks everyone should "just get real" about the religion, do their
Sunday thing, and then say "yeah, whatever" as they get in the car to
go home to their "real" lives. Are we disturbed or offended by the
idea that others may actually live their Gospel to the letter ? Are we trying to
take them out of sight lest we feel ashamed of our real disdain got our own Book
? Is that the problem ? You know, the separation of Church and State does not
mean that everyone should get ambivalent about their religion, so as not to
trouble their less observant neighbors. It means that they have the right.
Get a life and one wife | 4:17 p.m. May 16, 2008
TO* ADULTERERS*
The only evidence that anyone needs here about FLDS, is that evil is evil!
The only evidence that anyone needs here about FLDS, is that evil is evil!
Back To Sandy | 4:32 p.m. May 16, 2008
You state we don't know what choices and freedoms these people had....
WOW. You really believe that?
These women and children are told every day that if they leave they can never see their family again. They have no skills and don't know anyone that would help them if they left. That has got to be totally scary for a 23 yr old mother of 4 (which is the avg there).
Am I disturbed or offended? Yes and Yes.
You see, I have no problem with people practicing their religion, in any way they see fit, as long as they don't force it upon others. And the men of this "religion" have forced it on the women and children for decades. When you take young people and teach them that their lot in life is to produce children, and you start them out into it without showing them any options, they become locked into the cycle.
Do all these women want to get away now? No, probably not. If they had exposure to the real world, would they want to get away? ABSOLUTELY. They stay because of mind-control, which started many years ago and continues to this day.
These women and children are told every day that if they leave they can never see their family again. They have no skills and don't know anyone that would help them if they left. That has got to be totally scary for a 23 yr old mother of 4 (which is the avg there).
Am I disturbed or offended? Yes and Yes.
You see, I have no problem with people practicing their religion, in any way they see fit, as long as they don't force it upon others. And the men of this "religion" have forced it on the women and children for decades. When you take young people and teach them that their lot in life is to produce children, and you start them out into it without showing them any options, they become locked into the cycle.
Do all these women want to get away now? No, probably not. If they had exposure to the real world, would they want to get away? ABSOLUTELY. They stay because of mind-control, which started many years ago and continues to this day.
I hope | 4:31 p.m. May 16, 2008
I hope that when all the lawsuits are done they will be sitting on billions of
dollars of damages from Texas.
However, this will not do squat for the children who were dragged away from their mothers. That four year old that got lost in she scuffle and was only found the nect dey in the empty Colliseum will be scarred for life. Any of you out there with a four year old child, imagine him or her hiding somewhere alone, all night, no food, no nothing. Imagine your own kid there. And if they only discovered that child the next day, while cleaning the place, I think that speaks volumes about how good a track they had of their charges. Apparently they did not miss that child right away. What about medical histories, possible allergies ? Anyone recorded that ? Or was that simply "the risk they were willing to take" ? "A price worth paying" ?
However, this will not do squat for the children who were dragged away from their mothers. That four year old that got lost in she scuffle and was only found the nect dey in the empty Colliseum will be scarred for life. Any of you out there with a four year old child, imagine him or her hiding somewhere alone, all night, no food, no nothing. Imagine your own kid there. And if they only discovered that child the next day, while cleaning the place, I think that speaks volumes about how good a track they had of their charges. Apparently they did not miss that child right away. What about medical histories, possible allergies ? Anyone recorded that ? Or was that simply "the risk they were willing to take" ? "A price worth paying" ?
to Get a life and one wife | 4:34 p.m. May 16, 2008
Um, I think most people actually want to see evidence, and not someone's
wild fantasies.
The statement "evil is evil" is factually true, but does not say anything new. It is deviod of information. And in no way relates to the FLDS.
The statement "evil is evil" is factually true, but does not say anything new. It is deviod of information. And in no way relates to the FLDS.
to to To sandy | 5:00 p.m. May 16, 2008
YES ! Religion cannot be allowed to interfere with the flow of commerce. What if
everyone just lived at home, built their own house, made their own clothes,
homeschooled their kids. Just imagine, they may not even need BANKS. Credit
cards. Mortgages. Newspapers. Advertisements. Think about the movie industry.
The pharmaceutical industry. What, they trust The Lord so much they don't
buy life insurance ? How subversive.
Looks like this lifestyle is a mortal threat to our society. Some reason or another had to be found, best of all one that stirs people's most secret fantasies and shameful dreams.
Looks like this lifestyle is a mortal threat to our society. Some reason or another had to be found, best of all one that stirs people's most secret fantasies and shameful dreams.
to Back To Sandy | 5:10 p.m. May 16, 2008
Yes, I do. I have seen no evidence, and I have no way of getting inside their
heads. NO, I don't know what is was like.
"These women and children are told every day that if they leave they can never see their family again."
How ironic. Isn't that what just happened to them ? So they have been destroyed in order to ba saved. You know, I hope you don't find out something I need to be liberated from.
"as long as they don't force it upon others"
But this happens inevery setting. We do force, ir imprint our beliefs on our children. We also hope that they live them. At this point it all becomes very subtle and near impossible to decide. Where is is still encouragement, and where it becomes compulsion. I would not want state to get involved in settling that. That is a very big can of worms.
"They have no skills and don't know anyone that would help them if they left."
True. Millions of people like that. Set up shelters and real help networks. Word will spread, those who want to get out, will do so. Don't sledge hammer them.
"These women and children are told every day that if they leave they can never see their family again."
How ironic. Isn't that what just happened to them ? So they have been destroyed in order to ba saved. You know, I hope you don't find out something I need to be liberated from.
"as long as they don't force it upon others"
But this happens inevery setting. We do force, ir imprint our beliefs on our children. We also hope that they live them. At this point it all becomes very subtle and near impossible to decide. Where is is still encouragement, and where it becomes compulsion. I would not want state to get involved in settling that. That is a very big can of worms.
"They have no skills and don't know anyone that would help them if they left."
True. Millions of people like that. Set up shelters and real help networks. Word will spread, those who want to get out, will do so. Don't sledge hammer them.
to Back To Sandy (2) | 5:18 p.m. May 16, 2008
"And the men of this "religion" have forced it on the women and
children for decades."
I suspect you are a man. You seem to underestimate the power of women. A common mistake.
"they become locked into the cycle."
Lost of cycles out there. Go give them options, make them available to them. Do not force it. That only makes people clam up. Even the FLDS used to be a pretty modern people until some raids and ppersecution like this case in the 50s. Than they retreated. Can't hardly blame them. External repression breeds excellent opportunities for tyrants.
"Do all these women want to get away now? No, probably not."
And who is to tell them they are wrong ?
"ABSOLUTELY"
How about maybe. some. perhaps. we don't know. It is their life. We have no idea. Let them be. If there is a violation of the law, go do something about it. Until then, let them be.
"They stay because of mind-control, which started many years ago and continues to this day."
We are all under some mind control. Tha't just the way life is. Let them find their own way. Support them if you care so much.
I suspect you are a man. You seem to underestimate the power of women. A common mistake.
"they become locked into the cycle."
Lost of cycles out there. Go give them options, make them available to them. Do not force it. That only makes people clam up. Even the FLDS used to be a pretty modern people until some raids and ppersecution like this case in the 50s. Than they retreated. Can't hardly blame them. External repression breeds excellent opportunities for tyrants.
"Do all these women want to get away now? No, probably not."
And who is to tell them they are wrong ?
"ABSOLUTELY"
How about maybe. some. perhaps. we don't know. It is their life. We have no idea. Let them be. If there is a violation of the law, go do something about it. Until then, let them be.
"They stay because of mind-control, which started many years ago and continues to this day."
We are all under some mind control. Tha't just the way life is. Let them find their own way. Support them if you care so much.
to Back To Sandy | 5:32 p.m. May 16, 2008
How do we as parents satisfy the apparent requirement to give our children a
choice ? If we homeschool, are we not denying them choice ? If we don't pay
for piano classes, don't we deny them an opportunity ? Shall we teach them
a phrase "I'm a free person, and I have all the opportunities I ever
desire, I can become anything I desire" and have them recite it in Court ?
What happens when they learn that that is not true ? Because you know as well as
everyone else that their choices are limited.
Lots of unusual people out there, you know, hiding behind blinds in all those suburban homes. Shall we go after Indians, who still commonly, if quietly, arrange their children's marriages ? Shall we go after Harley people who "might" teach their children values we don't agree with ? Their kids might be mind-controlled into thinking that gays are deviant. As a matter of fact, that is likely to happen to many Christian kids. Shall we go enlighten them ? Start with putting them into foster care ? If not them, why FLDS ?
So far, no criminal charges, just lifestyle attacks.
Lots of unusual people out there, you know, hiding behind blinds in all those suburban homes. Shall we go after Indians, who still commonly, if quietly, arrange their children's marriages ? Shall we go after Harley people who "might" teach their children values we don't agree with ? Their kids might be mind-controlled into thinking that gays are deviant. As a matter of fact, that is likely to happen to many Christian kids. Shall we go enlighten them ? Start with putting them into foster care ? If not them, why FLDS ?
So far, no criminal charges, just lifestyle attacks.
Back to Back to all Sandy | 5:56 p.m. May 16, 2008
You speak in riddles, my friend. You know exactly what I am saying and I have
no clue what you are trying to say except that you find it acceptable to teach
children in a manner that removed their control of their lives and puts control
of their entire existance into your hands.
Release your control, dude. Let these women and children make their own choices, in a free and OPEN society. Stop using methods that control their lives and let them live as they wish.
You may then have some followers (as other religions have) or you may find no one follows you. Either way, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that those that follow you do so because they want to, not because that is all they know.
Release your control, dude. Let these women and children make their own choices, in a free and OPEN society. Stop using methods that control their lives and let them live as they wish.
You may then have some followers (as other religions have) or you may find no one follows you. Either way, at least you have the satisfaction of knowing that those that follow you do so because they want to, not because that is all they know.
To: to Back To Sandy | 6:32 p.m. May 16, 2008
you say: "So far, no criminal charges, just lifestyle attacks."
--------------------
In due time.
Of course, continue to rant and rave and excuse the abuse and attack and pretend or sulk and _fill in the blank_
--------------------
In due time.
Of course, continue to rant and rave and excuse the abuse and attack and pretend or sulk and _fill in the blank_
to Back To Sandy | 7:20 p.m. May 16, 2008
In due time.
Of course, continue to rant and rave and excuse the abuse and attack and pretend or sulk and _fill in the blank_
You lost me here. Are you trying to be rude ? Why ?
Of course, continue to rant and rave and excuse the abuse and attack and pretend or sulk and _fill in the blank_
You lost me here. Are you trying to be rude ? Why ?
Joe McManus | 10:42 p.m. May 16, 2008
The state needs to swiftly assign all of these children to loving foster parents
permanently injunct their natural parents, the ABUSERS, from ever contacting
them again. Then the state needs to get the plural wives clinical
deprogramming. Finally, it needs to prosecute those men that abused any of the
women and children. And deprogram the rest. Amen.
dixiegal | 11:24 p.m. May 16, 2008
Most of you are missing the point. Mr. Wissen is trying to get the evidence he
needs to force Warren Jeffs and friends to show how they came by the money to
build the temple and compound in Texas. Seems pretty reasonable when if you
have seen these folks up close and personable as I have. I've said it
before and I'll say it again: I bitterly resent having to support these
families with my tax dollars so they can drive their new SUV's,
Cadilac's, and luxary vehicles to the local Costco or Walmart to shop with
their food stamps in hand. My spouse and I work too darn hard for what we have
and believe in paying our own way. Too bad they can't say the same. Our
Medicaid system would sure have thousands and thousands of dollars available if
it wasn't sent directly to Hildale/Colorado City. I don't mind
assisting those in need that are willing to work for themselves but the FLDS are
so crooked and dishonest it Pathetic....
Good Luck Mr. Wissen...hope you get all the info you need!
Good Luck Mr. Wissen...hope you get all the info you need!
LordofMisrule | 6:44 a.m. May 17, 2008
Utah does not have to worry about the FLDS cash flow. After the civil rights
lawsuits against Texas. The FLDS will have all the money they will ever need.
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The President is no help as he is a practically a dictorator just waiting to happen.
The laws are failing us already, and we should really be concerned about these person's Constitutional rights as our own rights are on the line as well. We must protest and we must quickly!
The Lord may take these matters into His own hands and when He deals out His judgements, they will be different than these from Judge Walthers because they will be just!