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Plans for FLDS families are not so individual
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to: Ed | 12:46 p.m. May 15, 2008
Read the report on the Eldorado Success website. The CPS report sent to the
parents states that in Texas, the legal age to marry is 16 with parents
permission. The problem for FLDS is typically the marriages are not legal. It
is also illegal, according to the report, to have sex with an indivdual under 17
with adult who is 3 years or more older than the victim. The parents are
ordered to cooperate, provide DNA evidence or they will lose custody of their
children permanently. The mothers too, since, as stated in the report, are
abusers as well since they allowed their daughters to have sex with older men.
ArizonaNative | 12:49 p.m. May 15, 2008
First off, I am old, an ex-cop and was around during the 1953 Short Creek Raid.
People are saying the FLDS are "brainwashed". The definition of
brainwash is " application of coercive (exploiting fear, anxiety)
techniques to change the beliefs or behavior of people". Many of these
people have NOT been "brainwashed", they have been RAISED in this
environment for generations.
Look at it this way. Say from the time you are born you are told the grass is purple. You BELIEVE it is purple your whole life. You grow up and teach your children the grass is purple. You have not brainwashed your children to believe this, you TAUGHT them. They will not believe someone whom they do not trust who tells them the grass is green. Jerking them from their mothers, jailing their fathers will NOT teach them the grass is green.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS RAID - the State of Texas has SAVED 400+ kids. Half of those kids and adults STILL believe the grass is purple. Showing them the wonderful outside world will NOT change that they believe the grass is purple. It did not work in 1953 and it will not work now.
Look at it this way. Say from the time you are born you are told the grass is purple. You BELIEVE it is purple your whole life. You grow up and teach your children the grass is purple. You have not brainwashed your children to believe this, you TAUGHT them. They will not believe someone whom they do not trust who tells them the grass is green. Jerking them from their mothers, jailing their fathers will NOT teach them the grass is green.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THIS RAID - the State of Texas has SAVED 400+ kids. Half of those kids and adults STILL believe the grass is purple. Showing them the wonderful outside world will NOT change that they believe the grass is purple. It did not work in 1953 and it will not work now.
to j-man | 1:19 p.m. May 15, 2008
Why have the flds leaders fled? I think sound legal representation suggested as
much. I certainly would have along with a refusal to submit DNA by all males.
Only one parent need offer DNA as evidence of parentage. Over 400 children were
removed from the compound without any solid evidence and a questionable warrant.
Nope sorry, I do not wonder in the slightest.
Comments continue below
Re: to j-man | 1:39 p.m. May 15, 2008
Double speak.
No solid evidence and yet the men should be afraid of giving DNA because they might incriminate themselves.
Of what? A crime that they didn't commit? For which there is no evidence?
Two can play that game. When/if the children are returned to their mothers, and no father has been identified, the judge could very well set restrictions that no FLDS men are to have personal contact with the family without first receiving express permission from the court.
No solid evidence and yet the men should be afraid of giving DNA because they might incriminate themselves.
Of what? A crime that they didn't commit? For which there is no evidence?
Two can play that game. When/if the children are returned to their mothers, and no father has been identified, the judge could very well set restrictions that no FLDS men are to have personal contact with the family without first receiving express permission from the court.
arizona native | 2:45 p.m. May 15, 2008
you don't see a difference between teaching a child the grass is purple and
teaching a child polygamy,sex abuse, child rape, fraud is okay?
yeah..arizona native...hildale arizona that is
yeah..arizona native...hildale arizona that is
Grandpa Phil | 2:55 p.m. May 15, 2008
Christina, about a year ago, the FLDS group sent the Texas Board of Education a
detailed description of their curriculum and thier facilities. The response
back fron the Texas BOE was that the FLDS exceeded the texas requirements for
educating their children. I live in NC and have 9 children. My children are
all home schooled for a VERY good reason, that is, to protect my children and
our family from the influences and abuses found in our public school system.
There is no way any of my children would ever go to public school.
Some are honest | 3:06 p.m. May 15, 2008
Thank you , Canadian FLDS
Thank you for speaking out the truth. God bless you.
Thank you for speaking out the truth. God bless you.
Kidnapping | 3:30 p.m. May 15, 2008
What as lot of people fail to realize is how many children in CPS custody have
parents outside of Texas because the FLDS split families up all the time. If
someone is deemed "unworthy" they are kicked out of the
church/community and their children are sent to be raised by other people.
That's kidnapping! A religion just can't take children away from their
legal and biological parents and give them to someone else. Every
"father" and "mother" at YFZ Ranch/Prison raising a child
from some other family is an accomplice to kidnapping.
I think it's so funny the FLDS are crying over their children being taken from them when it's a well-known and documented practice within their religion.
I hope in addition to the fraud, tax evasion and abuse charges that kidnapping charges are also filed. Oh, and guess what, moving children without consent from their parents across state lines and even into different countries is a federal offense. If I were an FLDS "leader" I'd be running too.
I think it's so funny the FLDS are crying over their children being taken from them when it's a well-known and documented practice within their religion.
I hope in addition to the fraud, tax evasion and abuse charges that kidnapping charges are also filed. Oh, and guess what, moving children without consent from their parents across state lines and even into different countries is a federal offense. If I were an FLDS "leader" I'd be running too.
Re: Grandpa Phil | 3:49 p.m. May 15, 2008
Did that detailed report describe how the FLDS teach their children dinasours
don't exsit and are a lie or how the FLDS skip over huge chunks of history
or how they don't teach children basic word definitions, such as
"sex" or how lessons on anatomy don't exist or how more than half
of the education they actually receive is religious in nature? Something tells
me the FLDS failed to tell Texsas such, just like they conveniently told Texas
only a few hundred people lived at YFZ ranch/prison when actually over 700
people lived there.
Sure these may be smart kids, but they certainly don't know anything.
Sure these may be smart kids, but they certainly don't know anything.
Jim in Reno, NV. | 4:09 p.m. May 15, 2008
Relax everyone; the search and, purpose of the search under FEDERAL law was:
illegal; (even though the police think they have proof of criminal activity you
can not "look for one thing to find another") The breaking and,
entering for the purpose of kidnap also, was illegal; (as this was based on a
overly broad search warrant based on "hearsay" This case will
eventually arrive at the Supreme Court or, an Appellate Court that understands
that we cannot have a gestapo government runing Texas.
Eventually the local, appellate and, state supreme court of Texas will run out of excuses and, argument and, will have to account for; or, show proof of; their actions to the federal courts.
It will be a shame however that so much time will have passed. "Law... that's why it's called a
practice; we never quite get it right"
Eventually the local, appellate and, state supreme court of Texas will run out of excuses and, argument and, will have to account for; or, show proof of; their actions to the federal courts.
It will be a shame however that so much time will have passed. "Law... that's why it's called a
practice; we never quite get it right"
to kidnapping | 4:12 p.m. May 15, 2008
I agree with you, but unfortunately, the parents did agree that their kids would
move, so it's not kidnapping. It's stupidity and fear, but not
kidnapping. It's too bad it's not illegal to intimidate and
brainwash, since these guys would get life.
give the kids some choices | 4:22 p.m. May 15, 2008
I read some of the posts here and it's obvious some of you believe the
children should just go back to the compound, as is. I guess you care more
about the parent's rights than you do about the childrens future.
The only reason some people brought up public school was to get the kids outside so they could see that there are different ways to live life. Stuck in that compound, they have no choices.
I think 99% of the people here simply want the kids to have some choices as they grow up. Fix that, FLDS, and you're way closer to getting out of this mess.
Just for the record, your way is not the only way to live life. It's not the holiest way nor the worst way. It's just your way. Don't force your way onto the children unless you're going to allow them to see other ways also. Thats not fair to them. Let them out occasionally (or the state will do it for you...)
The only reason some people brought up public school was to get the kids outside so they could see that there are different ways to live life. Stuck in that compound, they have no choices.
I think 99% of the people here simply want the kids to have some choices as they grow up. Fix that, FLDS, and you're way closer to getting out of this mess.
Just for the record, your way is not the only way to live life. It's not the holiest way nor the worst way. It's just your way. Don't force your way onto the children unless you're going to allow them to see other ways also. Thats not fair to them. Let them out occasionally (or the state will do it for you...)
G | 4:21 p.m. May 15, 2008
"Did that detailed report describe how the FLDS teach their children
dinasours don't exsit and are a lie or how the FLDS skip over huge chunks
of history or how they don't teach children basic word definitions, such as
"sex" or how lessons on anatomy don't exist or how more than half
of the education they actually receive is religious in nature?"
Religious teaching compared to what? The Texas school system?
Where theologically inconvenient constructs like evolution are a "controversial theories" and "nobody witnessed it"?
Based on the posts by admitted FLDS members here, compared with the posts by the pro-CPS crowd, there does not seem to be a big difference in basic literacy between FLDS members and the average D-News commentator. Both can be pretty bad, but the most emotional anti-CPS posters seem to be the least coherent.
Religious teaching compared to what? The Texas school system?
Where theologically inconvenient constructs like evolution are a "controversial theories" and "nobody witnessed it"?
Based on the posts by admitted FLDS members here, compared with the posts by the pro-CPS crowd, there does not seem to be a big difference in basic literacy between FLDS members and the average D-News commentator. Both can be pretty bad, but the most emotional anti-CPS posters seem to be the least coherent.
G | 4:24 p.m. May 15, 2008
I am sorry, I meant that the most extreme of the pro-CPS (anti-FLDS) are the
least coherent. Of course, getting emotional about the issue probably does a lot
to degrade logical reasoning.
Possibly.... | 4:32 p.m. May 15, 2008
with good
intent, based on the phone calls they received. But when that call was shown to be a hoax, should they not have, at that point, admitted they had overacted and returned the children? It seems they are still hanging on to the hope that they will find "Sarah", although the rest of us can see that she does not exist. As others have said, if it can happen to one religion, it can happen to another.
Another thought: Elissa Wall says she didn't know of any other 14 year olds being "married" for a long time. If this is "pervasive" among the FLDS, why wouldn't someone who is "telling all" tell about it?
intent, based on the phone calls they received. But when that call was shown to be a hoax, should they not have, at that point, admitted they had overacted and returned the children? It seems they are still hanging on to the hope that they will find "Sarah", although the rest of us can see that she does not exist. As others have said, if it can happen to one religion, it can happen to another.
Another thought: Elissa Wall says she didn't know of any other 14 year olds being "married" for a long time. If this is "pervasive" among the FLDS, why wouldn't someone who is "telling all" tell about it?
Arizona Native | 4:35 p.m. May 15, 2008
To the person who said to me at 2:45 p.m. May 15, 2008 "you don't see
a difference between teaching a child the grass is purple and teaching a child
polygamy,sex abuse, child rape, fraud is okay
yeah..arizona native...hildale arizona that is"
You missed the point COMPELTELY! I did NOT say it was okay to teach your children illegal things - and I am not FLDS. I am telling you that JUST taking the children away from the FLDS will NOT stop what they believe. The State of Arizona took their kids away in 1953 and THEY JUST MADE MORE!
People have to address the ACTUAL crimes. PUNISH the ACTUAL crimes.
yeah..arizona native...hildale arizona that is"
You missed the point COMPELTELY! I did NOT say it was okay to teach your children illegal things - and I am not FLDS. I am telling you that JUST taking the children away from the FLDS will NOT stop what they believe. The State of Arizona took their kids away in 1953 and THEY JUST MADE MORE!
People have to address the ACTUAL crimes. PUNISH the ACTUAL crimes.
Suzette | 4:37 p.m. May 15, 2008
Everyone keeps harping on the FLDS for committing FRAUD. If BY LAW you
don't allow them to enter into polgamist marriages, then they ARE single
mothers with kids and they DO qualify for the assistance they get.
You might not like it, but it is NOT illegal in MOST states (except for UTAH) to just live with people you are NOT married to and call each other whatever pet name you like i.e BoyToy, Honeybabe, Wive, Dogcatcher, whatever!
You might not like it, but it is NOT illegal in MOST states (except for UTAH) to just live with people you are NOT married to and call each other whatever pet name you like i.e BoyToy, Honeybabe, Wive, Dogcatcher, whatever!
jt | 4:53 p.m. May 15, 2008
boy am i glad i don't belong to an orgainized religion. i think i will just
live by the bible and His word.
Interloper | 5:01 p.m. May 15, 2008
ArizonaNative, you are much too cynical. Some, probably most children exposed
to normal life after being sequestered in the FLDS compounds will become open to
other experiences. That is more likely to happen to the young ones, from two
to 12 or so. Behavior modification when circumstances change is pretty much a
given. A recent study discovered that immigrant children to the U.S. become
assimilated at a very fast pace.
Speaking of pace, I think the CPS is moving along as quickly as it can. After all, the DNA samples have not even had time for full processing yet, so actual identities of children cannot be established. Some 'mothers' may turn out to be foster parents to children Jeffs had reassigned.
I do not know if the bias in favor of FLDS in stories by Ben Winslow is intentional or just proof of a lack of analytical skills, but it really mars the coverage of the FLDS saga.
Speaking of pace, I think the CPS is moving along as quickly as it can. After all, the DNA samples have not even had time for full processing yet, so actual identities of children cannot be established. Some 'mothers' may turn out to be foster parents to children Jeffs had reassigned.
I do not know if the bias in favor of FLDS in stories by Ben Winslow is intentional or just proof of a lack of analytical skills, but it really mars the coverage of the FLDS saga.
To G | 5:09 p.m. May 15, 2008
I live in the deep south and my daughter's public school science teacher
refused to teach "differentiation of bird beaks" because it conflicted
with her creationism belief which she did manage to teach. This, despite the
fact that the school curriculum required so. Despite complaints to the
superintendent of schools nothing happened and she continues to not teach
science in science class. So, the teaching that dinosaurs didn't exist
relates to non-flds. BTW I had to teach science that year to my own child and
explain that some people also believe in the Easter bunny in the sky.
To jt | 5:18 p.m. May 15, 2008
I agree, Religion is for those who need a crutch. Very sad that religion ends up
taking over ones mind. It's called mind control. People stop thinking for
themselves and become zombies.
to sosueme534 | 5:31 p.m. May 15, 2008
You are right that money will decide this one, and the first thing for the se
parents will be to hire their own lawyers, instead of relying on that
court-appointed team that represented them so capably at the circus hearing. Do
you have any idea how much that is going to cost ? I don't think if I could
afford one of such cases, not to mention 460. That's why Donate page on
captivefldschildren dot org is so critical - money speaks louder than words.
Re: to kidnapping | 6:03 p.m. May 15, 2008
I see your point, but in some cases the fathers of the children did not agree to
the seperation. There are well-documented cases where fathers were told to
"repent from afar" and their children were removed from him against
his will. Some of those fathers are actually now trying to work with CPS to get
their kids back.
Anonymous | 8:37 p.m. May 15, 2008
Why is the Deseret News covering this story so closely????? These people are
not from Utah and they are not LDS, therefore there is no connection to the
Deseret News. I'm sick of seeing so many articles on the subject!
Aren't you?
John Lambert | 10:35 p.m. May 15, 2008
Some judge should just suspend these deadlines. It is better to do something
right than to do it in a rushed manner and mess everything up.
Harlan | 11:53 p.m. May 15, 2008
Why is Texas doing this?
Are they now investigating all the pregnant girls in Texas? Is there equal concern about the family activities of non cult members?
There seems to be a whole lot of pregnant underage girls in Texas. Is there equal concern about what they are being taught at home or in their churches?
Are they now investigating all the pregnant girls in Texas? Is there equal concern about the family activities of non cult members?
There seems to be a whole lot of pregnant underage girls in Texas. Is there equal concern about what they are being taught at home or in their churches?
Grandpa Phil | 7:33 a.m. May 16, 2008
FLDS_Guy, actually, even the polygamy part is not valid. In each case where you
find more than one woman in the house, you will find that ONE is legally married
and the rest are Spritually married, meaning they have been bonded together
through a religious ceremony but are NOT legally married. You cannot prosecute
for polygamy unless a man has more than one wife legally married to him under
State law. The rest of the laughable accusations that all of those things are
supposedly accepted practices in the FLDS faith is nothing but gainsaying. It
is people like that that are stirring up irrational hysteria (is there such a
thing as rational hysteria?) against a group of people they despise due to their
religion. Get the FACTS people and stop prosecuting/persecuting these people in
the Peoples' Kangaroo Court.
Grandpa Phil | 8:06 a.m. May 16, 2008
Anonymous..... NO, I am NOT sick of seeing so many articles on the subject. The
more this topic remains in the public eye/mind, the more likely citizens will
stand up and make their views known on the subject. Many would like to see
these articles buried. Many (especially CPS) would LOVE to get out of the
public mind and get out from under the scrutiny of the people. When fundamental
rights are abused and hidden from public view, they sneak up on us and, before
we know it, we are all screaming, "How did it ever come to this?"
Read your history of the rise of Nazism and the Brown Shirt Storm Troopers. No,
we will keep this going as long as it takes to get good people to throw off
indifference and say, "ENOUGH is ENOUGH; this must end, NOW".
Re: Not from Utah? | 8:18 a.m. May 16, 2008
"Why is the Deseret News covering this story so closely????? These people
are not from Utah"
(A comment obviously from some who is either completely ignorant of the history of the FLDS people, or someone who is deliberately trying to prevent more information about this story from being published. My guess would be the later is true.)
Last time I checked Hilldale was in Utah and Colorado City was just across the border in Arizona.
Almost all of the people living at the YFZ ranch are from Hilldale or Colorado City.
(A comment obviously from some who is either completely ignorant of the history of the FLDS people, or someone who is deliberately trying to prevent more information about this story from being published. My guess would be the later is true.)
Last time I checked Hilldale was in Utah and Colorado City was just across the border in Arizona.
Almost all of the people living at the YFZ ranch are from Hilldale or Colorado City.
Sharon | 8:50 a.m. May 16, 2008
REPLY TO FLDS_GUY.
I just have to roll my eyes..reading your posts. Not everyone is as gullible as you hope for them to be. Your almighty prophet in his own words confirmed, to me anyways...just how off the wall his made-up teaching are. In Jeffs videos on YouTube, which you can watch if you'd like, to refresh your memory of course...matter of fact...watch all the videos of ex-FLDS members also, and then tell me these people are lying.
I just have to roll my eyes..reading your posts. Not everyone is as gullible as you hope for them to be. Your almighty prophet in his own words confirmed, to me anyways...just how off the wall his made-up teaching are. In Jeffs videos on YouTube, which you can watch if you'd like, to refresh your memory of course...matter of fact...watch all the videos of ex-FLDS members also, and then tell me these people are lying.
to Grandpa Phil | 10:25 a.m. May 16, 2008
YES - you're exactly right. We MUST keep this going long enough to get
good people to throw off indifference and say enough is enough! Good post.
Hopefully they will get rid of their Nazism and free the women and children, so we must keep the subject open until that happens.
With Warren in jail, hopefully there are not too many dictators left in FLDS and once they are gone, these women and children will truly be free.
You are 100% correct when you say "when fundamental (sic-women and children's) rights are abused and hidden from view (sic-in that compound), before we know it we are all screaming "how did this happen"?
Yes - enough is enough. Great post, sir.
Hopefully they will get rid of their Nazism and free the women and children, so we must keep the subject open until that happens.
With Warren in jail, hopefully there are not too many dictators left in FLDS and once they are gone, these women and children will truly be free.
You are 100% correct when you say "when fundamental (sic-women and children's) rights are abused and hidden from view (sic-in that compound), before we know it we are all screaming "how did this happen"?
Yes - enough is enough. Great post, sir.
Grandpa Phil | 10:58 a.m. May 16, 2008
To: RE:Grandpa Phil: You seem to be quite an expert of the education levels and
capabilities of the FLDS children. Have you actually met and talked to any of
them? I would match their homeschooled education above the tripe yours get from
public school anytime. Yeah, all that sex education they get in public school
has sure helped hasn't it? Your children may very well fit into the public
norm but then, since when has the public norm ever been good for our children?
That is why all of mine are homeschooled. My oldest daughter was tested by the
local college at age 7 and was rated at the 7th Grade level in math, reading,
reading comprehension, vocabulary, and grammar BEFORE SHE ENTERED HER SECOND
GRADE YEAR. My 4th daughter actually went to public school for one year at age
5. At the end of that year, her reading and comprehension skills got
considerably worse than before she started that year. Never again.
The Texas Board of education signed off on and praised the FLDS homeschool program. I will accept their conclusions over your unsubstantiated allegations ANYTIME.
The Texas Board of education signed off on and praised the FLDS homeschool program. I will accept their conclusions over your unsubstantiated allegations ANYTIME.
mamabear | 11:19 a.m. May 16, 2008
I am quite disturbed by the uninhibited power of the CPS. Maybe, and that is a
big maybe a few girls married young and had babies. My great grandmother
married at 15, my grandmother at 17, my mom at 18 (I married 5 years ago at
22). They are not FLDS, and they had loving marriages. The underage marriage
card is a weak one. CPS needs to have it's wings clipped. Is there no
public figure to stand up and say this raid is illegal and immoral. A few
underage marriages is not reason enough to carry off almost 500 people. This
methodology is dangerous. It means that unvalidated suspicion and rumor are
enough to have children removed from a home. Heaven help us all.
to mamabear | 11:31 a.m. May 16, 2008
500 people weren't taken from a home because of unvalidated suspicion.
They were removed from a compound with 10 ft walls and a guardtower because they
were being imprisoned there. Using religion as a skapegoat, these poor women
and children were being held against their will through mind control. Was the
raid illegal? Perhaps. Was the raid immoral? No - it was exactly the
opposite. The situation on that compound was immoral and freeing the women and
children was probably the most moral and correct action yet.
If you were a mom, and cared about children, you would be up in arms at the thought of all these people being treated as badly as the FLDS men treat them.
If you were a mom, and cared about children, you would be up in arms at the thought of all these people being treated as badly as the FLDS men treat them.
Grandpa Phil | 12:04 p.m. May 16, 2008
One of the things that bugs me is that CFPS will put a good number of these
children into Group Homes during this process. My wife and I worked in Group
Homes in the State of NC for 5 years. Basically, what you have is a large
campus (compound) dotted with a number of houses where house parents will watch
over and care for anywhere from five to 12 children. Since house parents cannot
handle the stress of continuous child care 24/7, they normally switch off with
another set of house parents during the week. The house parents can either be
married couples or just a male and a female that work together in the same
cottage. Work schedules vary between facilities with 7 days on/7 days off, or 8
days on/ 4 days off. That second schedule allowed three couples to work two
cottages. For the couples, it created kind of a nomadic lifestyle as we were
all moving back and forth from home to our workplaces every week. Basically,
for the children, it created a familial situation not unlike what the FLDS kids
live in, except the CPS "couples" are not their parents. Talk about a
step backwards!
Grandpa Phil | 12:22 p.m. May 16, 2008
TO: "to mamabear". The walls weren't there to keep people IN,
the walls were there to shelter these people from the outside world. Based on
what we have seen lately and what they have experienced lately, I'd say
that was a good call. DO your homework better; there was no
"guardtower"; there was a tower being constructed but unfinished.
It's purpose is speculative. Funny you should claim that all of these
women and children were being held against their will; there is certainly
nothing to substantiate that - merely more anti-FLDS gainsaying. And, you can
change that word "Perhaps" to a definitive "Yes". The raid
was illegal and, the aftermath of that is what is legally known as the fruit of
the forbidden tree. Never before in our legal processes have we ever condoned
the adage, "The ends justifies the means". On the contrary, many
legal cases have been overturned because the means violated the rights of the
individuals. Sometimes that was good and sometimes not; however, those
protections were made a part of the legal process in order to protect us all.
After all of this, I, for one, do not feel our families are the least bit safer.
Hey Sharon | 12:58 p.m. May 16, 2008
I have watched the ex-flds videos, interviews and books and I came to a very
different conclusion. I find them to be inconsistent at best. I have written
this over and over and the best you can do is to claim me FLDS. I am not, but I
am agnostic. You cannot claim that women cannot think for themselves, then
mention an example of independent thought one from another. You cannot claim
"lost boys" then to go on to say that they are runaways that you took
in without notifying their parents. You never took a moment to consider how you
would feel as a parent given the same scenario. You fill up with ex-flds
information but fail to look at those that were in, then left, then returned
with Fawn Holms and Betty Jessop as examples. Fawn Holms did the talk show
circuit tour calling FLDS a cult only to return. Betty was 13 when she left
with her mother Caroline only to return at age 18. Why did she not note the
horrific abuse of children that her mother claims? If you only look to one side
you won't have a complete story.
re - hey sharon | 1:54 p.m. May 16, 2008
you talk the talk and walk the walk.. of FLDS, yet claim agnostic. I am in
fact agnostic, and I cannot imagine anyone in their right mind being ok with
women and children being confined to a compound and not allowed to choose their
own path as they get older. You are a hypocrit. Perhaps if you REALLY cared
about the FUTURE of these women and children, you would take a different stance
on this.
And that applies to all of you supporters of FLDS. The fact is that the only reason you find this way of life acceptable is because you truly BELIEVE in it and you believe in your "prophet. I've said it once and I'll say it again. that makes you sheep, being led to slaughter. Good luck with that.
And that applies to all of you supporters of FLDS. The fact is that the only reason you find this way of life acceptable is because you truly BELIEVE in it and you believe in your "prophet. I've said it once and I'll say it again. that makes you sheep, being led to slaughter. Good luck with that.
Grandpa Phil | 3:02 p.m. May 16, 2008
Hey "re-hey sharon" ....... sorry, I had to stop laughing before I
could type. I agree with Hey Sharon; no matter how thin the batter, there is
always two sides to a pancake. Not everyone who writes in support of the FLDS
believe in their doctrine or their prophet. I don't. In fact, I can say
for a certainty that he is not a prophet, but it doesn't matter. None of
that matters. I know a crime when I see one and what the State of Texas has
done to those families is a crime - a crime against us all. Even you. But,
some people learn to live with abuse or even revel in it so, you go ahead and
remain snug in that comfy cocoon called
"I'm-OK-with-it-as-long-as-it-happens-to-people-I-hate-and-not-me".
One day, some of us will be in here discussing how unfair it is that the
authorities mistreated you and those like you and took your kids just because
someone with an agenda decided to call them and make allegations about you.
And, you won't be here to defend CPS because you will be too busy fighting
them to get your kids back (assuming you have any)- too little, TOO LATE.
Sharon | 4:45 p.m. May 16, 2008
Grandpa Phil...do you have any idea at all...how many people wish the CPS would
of taken their grandchild..or a child from an abusive x-spouse away.Wish is all
they can do ...seeing that its to late, the little one is dead now, because CPS
didnt step in.....THATS WHAT I CALL A LITTLE TO LATE ! I will defend the GOOD
CPS people, but the bad apples in the bunch have no right to even be around
children, and they need to be dealt.
again to Re Hey Sharon | 4:45 p.m. May 16, 2008
Nope, still not FLDS still quite thoroughly agnostic. What you seem to miss is
ALL the facts and not the ones that tug at your heartstrings. You quickly claim
a strawman that I mustn't care about the future of women or children. Who
exactly raised those MEN that run the FLDS compound? It was women/mothers that
brainwashed those boys turned men...or did you forget about that part? You
claim that I "find this way of life acceptable." It is for them. Could
you discount ANY of the information I presented? No, instead you claim me a
horror when I only restated what ex-flds stated for themselves, in contradiction
with other words they spoke.
Did Carolyn's daughter return at age 18, though out of the FLDS for 5 years? Verify that for yourself with Carolyn's own quotes. Verify for yourself that Fawn Holms did the talk show circuit using words like "cult" but then later returning. Real Choice is allowing others to follow that which you don't agree. It's all verifiable and has nothing to do with me but confirmation of facts. A real agnostic bases information on facts, not burning in the bosom. It makes me doubt your claim.
Did Carolyn's daughter return at age 18, though out of the FLDS for 5 years? Verify that for yourself with Carolyn's own quotes. Verify for yourself that Fawn Holms did the talk show circuit using words like "cult" but then later returning. Real Choice is allowing others to follow that which you don't agree. It's all verifiable and has nothing to do with me but confirmation of facts. A real agnostic bases information on facts, not burning in the bosom. It makes me doubt your claim.
The agnostic on the board | 4:54 p.m. May 16, 2008
Thank you GrandPa, I appreciate your words. I find it noteworthy that though
the claim went from spousal abuse (fraudulent phone call interestingly similar
to Lawrence V TX) to child abuse (broken bone rates lower than the average
population) and underage marriage (CPS has admitted to listing women known to be
adults as children) to now investigating funding of the FLDS compound. I simply
do not understand how anyone finds this acceptable practice. Perhaps it is
because they are those insane cultists while we are not...apparently most do not
understand the "slippery slope" of misjustice. They don't
understand that this egregious action could next be targeted at citizen John
Smith, average guy as just "following a precedent set in the FLDS V TX
case." I sigh at the eroding of a system that while not perfect, worked
quite well.
Sharon | 4:58 p.m. May 16, 2008
Reply to Hey Sharon 12:58 May 16,
All I can give my point of views on...are the interviews with ex-flds members I have watched...the books I have read...The videos I have watched. I have never mentioned Fawn Holms or Betty Jessop, because neither one has ever came forward and told their story why they went back, and untill they do...I cant say anything about them.
By the way since you brought up their names....do you know why they went back?
All I can give my point of views on...are the interviews with ex-flds members I have watched...the books I have read...The videos I have watched. I have never mentioned Fawn Holms or Betty Jessop, because neither one has ever came forward and told their story why they went back, and untill they do...I cant say anything about them.
By the way since you brought up their names....do you know why they went back?
To Grandpa Phil - Sharon | 5:08 p.m. May 16, 2008
I too am having a hard time keeping a straight face in reading your remarks.
No one will come and take my kids. I teach them my beliefs and GUIDE them down a path. I instill upon them the many opportunities and freedoms this great land has to offer. I DO NOT tell them that everyone else is evil, since that destroys their ability to survive in the real world (not to mention it isn't true). I raise thinking people, not sheep. I provide them with the tools to be good, and teach them that all people are created equal, and should be treated with respect and dignity.
I do not hate the FLDS, I pity them, because they are true believers in a hateful religion. I pity them because they believe that by keeping their women "sweet" and pregnant, they will have a greater place in heaven, yet they fail to realize that no God would let the servitude of women and children be a path to rightiousness.
It's a shame that once one TRULY believes in something, no matter how harmful to others, they cannot be convinced otherwise. I waste my breath. Good luck to you, sir.
No one will come and take my kids. I teach them my beliefs and GUIDE them down a path. I instill upon them the many opportunities and freedoms this great land has to offer. I DO NOT tell them that everyone else is evil, since that destroys their ability to survive in the real world (not to mention it isn't true). I raise thinking people, not sheep. I provide them with the tools to be good, and teach them that all people are created equal, and should be treated with respect and dignity.
I do not hate the FLDS, I pity them, because they are true believers in a hateful religion. I pity them because they believe that by keeping their women "sweet" and pregnant, they will have a greater place in heaven, yet they fail to realize that no God would let the servitude of women and children be a path to rightiousness.
It's a shame that once one TRULY believes in something, no matter how harmful to others, they cannot be convinced otherwise. I waste my breath. Good luck to you, sir.
To Sharon | 5:31 p.m. May 16, 2008
Generic grandparents wishing a now dead child, removed from a home is not
relevant to the case. That leap of logic is a vast cavern. I guarantee that in
your neighborhood there are cases of gross child abuse. It is statistically
sound to also suggest that based on 1 in 4 females being rape, if I look at your
neighborhood I will also find that. The problem is that invading a neighborhood
using CPS to find that abuse is ILLEGAL...unless of course you are FLDS in TX.
Next, look at the evidence. There is NO suggestion of abuse. What CPS found
was a lower than average number of broken bones. There is no suggestion of rape.
Underage women, as per CPS, are now being proven legal adults. None of those
"fishing" expeditions worked so the new search is financial records.
So, TX moves from investigation spousal abuse (fake phone call) to a search
through financial paperwork. Is that really what you want your government to
have the ability to do to your family? Again, all began with a fraudulent phone
call that my caller I.D. would have found. Yup, suspicious all especially given
Lawrence v. TX.
I agree | 8:37 p.m. May 16, 2008
I agree with "again to Re Hey Sharon", that real choice IS allowing
others to follow that which you don't agree. We as Americans have the
right to choose the way we want to live and the responsibility to stand up in
defense of these rights when they are trampled on, even if it's not the way
we would choose to live. If we don't defend defend those rights, we are
setting ourselves up to lose them altogether. Don't think that this
couldn't happen to just anyone.
JiminIndiana | 10:54 a.m. May 17, 2008
Well let's look at constitutional and social rights and responsibilities
and statements the Texas CPS has made:
1. Even though the call was a "hoax", it had to be investigated.
See a young-looking mother in your neighborhood? You have a duty to report it to CPS and they need to investigate it, using the "eyeball" test and refusing any presented ID as "forgeries", taking the child into custody regardless of the child's age.
2. CPS will get a judge to order DNA testing of child, mother, and putative father, put the child under CPS protection for a year or possibly terminate parental rights if you don't agree to every CPS "requirement."
3. Too many incidents in neighborhood-take all minor children in the neighborhood!
14th Amendment-Equal Protection
1. Even though the call was a "hoax", it had to be investigated.
See a young-looking mother in your neighborhood? You have a duty to report it to CPS and they need to investigate it, using the "eyeball" test and refusing any presented ID as "forgeries", taking the child into custody regardless of the child's age.
2. CPS will get a judge to order DNA testing of child, mother, and putative father, put the child under CPS protection for a year or possibly terminate parental rights if you don't agree to every CPS "requirement."
3. Too many incidents in neighborhood-take all minor children in the neighborhood!
14th Amendment-Equal Protection
Loretta | 7:25 a.m. May 18, 2008
"Bleeding the Beast" - I see people have been reading up on this and
now have a new phrase in their vocabulary because they are using it over and
over and over.
I am not sure what world people have been living in, but this "bleeding the government" for every dime you can get out of it is commonplace. As a Community Activist, I have seen it in a number of housing projects. Single, unwed mothers living together all collecting welfare and assistance; pooling their money to raise their standard of living. They know who their "Baby's Daddy" are, but they don't name them. In many cases the men are still in their lives, coming over and still sleeping with them, but they're rather "proud" to say "heck, I don't know could have been anyone". They get assistance for school, WIC, hit the food banks, the local churches, you name it - they know how to work the system. I know of one case where the mothers "split" up the kids on their tax forms with someone who had no kids for the child credit. Not sure how the IRS correlates this data or if they would even catch it.
I am not sure what world people have been living in, but this "bleeding the government" for every dime you can get out of it is commonplace. As a Community Activist, I have seen it in a number of housing projects. Single, unwed mothers living together all collecting welfare and assistance; pooling their money to raise their standard of living. They know who their "Baby's Daddy" are, but they don't name them. In many cases the men are still in their lives, coming over and still sleeping with them, but they're rather "proud" to say "heck, I don't know could have been anyone". They get assistance for school, WIC, hit the food banks, the local churches, you name it - they know how to work the system. I know of one case where the mothers "split" up the kids on their tax forms with someone who had no kids for the child credit. Not sure how the IRS correlates this data or if they would even catch it.
Hey Jiminindiana | 8:03 a.m. May 18, 2008
How odd that the phone call was thought to be legitimate when even I have caller
I.D. that would have identified the caller. Read about Lawrence v TX and you
will see a suspicious similarity. Do the investigators really not have access
to the technology that I, Jane citizen has ready access?
Odd that if all this horrific abuse is taking place that they are ignoring it and looking at FLDS financial records.
Odd that if all this horrific abuse is taking place that they are ignoring it and looking at FLDS financial records.
Hey Amicrazy | 1:32 p.m. May 18, 2008
As the adage goes: "The road to hell is paved with good
intentions."
Odd that TX claims they were trying to rescue an underage girl from her abusive spouse and when that was proven false they decided to target FLDS funds. It seems their intentions were all about money and not rescuing.
Odd that TX claims they were trying to rescue an underage girl from her abusive spouse and when that was proven false they decided to target FLDS funds. It seems their intentions were all about money and not rescuing.
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