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Plans for FLDS families are not so individual
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AMICRAZY | 9:00 a.m. May 15, 2008
AM I Crazy or do you not see that the state of Texas went into this compound
with good intent on investigating the allegations made. It was the FLDS group
that would not produce ages of the young wemon and boys involved in young
pregnacies. It was the FLDS people who allow (and I mean ALLOW) their young
girls to marry at the demands of their leader. Surely even when you are trying
to do what you see as Gods will you know better than to force your daughter into
a marriage at the age of 14-20 yrs and one she does not want to have!! That
cannot be Gods will because they know God is a God of love.
logic | 9:10 a.m. May 15, 2008
Amen! to David S
Completely salient point.
Completely salient point.
LIlathe | 9:14 a.m. May 15, 2008
CPS's wording is meant to incite. Many girls ages 14-17 are pregnant.
Ok well fine. Age 17 is perfectly legal to have sex in Texas with any aged man. Age 17 is the sexual age of consent. So why are we including 17 year olds in the count?
Also 26 of the girls they claim in the count had drivers licenses and birth certificates to prove they were NOT 14-17 but CPS refused them. They are having to go to court to prove their age even though they had proof? explain that one to me?
So what is the exact count of girls under aged 16 that are pregnant or have children? EXACT COUNT now, not some number CPS is pulling out of its behind and stating as fact.
Ok well fine. Age 17 is perfectly legal to have sex in Texas with any aged man. Age 17 is the sexual age of consent. So why are we including 17 year olds in the count?
Also 26 of the girls they claim in the count had drivers licenses and birth certificates to prove they were NOT 14-17 but CPS refused them. They are having to go to court to prove their age even though they had proof? explain that one to me?
So what is the exact count of girls under aged 16 that are pregnant or have children? EXACT COUNT now, not some number CPS is pulling out of its behind and stating as fact.
Comments continue below
The only spouse | 9:17 a.m. May 15, 2008
I'm sick of reading "These children should be returnred to their
loving mother and father." If only it were so. From what I have read and
seen, including testimony of former FLDS members and the homes themselves at
YFZ, "loving mother and father" is a fantasy. The children are raised
in a dormitory with several housemothers. The mothers and children sometimes
don't know what child came from what mother, so as to eliminate favoritism.
This doesn't represent my idea of a loving family, and I am thankful I
didn't have such a childhood. When I was hurt I could go straight to my
mother.
I didn't have to wait in line to see the nurse-mother, and I didn't have to wait while my mother got permission from the senior wife to abandon her duties to tend to me.
I didn't have to wait in line to see the nurse-mother, and I didn't have to wait while my mother got permission from the senior wife to abandon her duties to tend to me.
Who is the the criminal? | 9:26 a.m. May 15, 2008
CPS, answer the following question:
Who is the suspect in the FLDS case of underage marriage?
A. Babies
B. Children
C. Mothers
D. Fathers
The answer is 'D'.
Now ask yourself which group has been plastered all over the media, shipped off into compounds and foster homes: 'A, B, and C'
If you took all of the fathers in this case, you remove the unsafe environment, therefore making it possible to return the children to their mothers. Why is this so difficult to understand? If you are going to error, error on the side of the fathers, not the innocent kids.
Who is the suspect in the FLDS case of underage marriage?
A. Babies
B. Children
C. Mothers
D. Fathers
The answer is 'D'.
Now ask yourself which group has been plastered all over the media, shipped off into compounds and foster homes: 'A, B, and C'
If you took all of the fathers in this case, you remove the unsafe environment, therefore making it possible to return the children to their mothers. Why is this so difficult to understand? If you are going to error, error on the side of the fathers, not the innocent kids.
Re: Hey barnetto | 9:31 a.m. May 15, 2008
"Some states continue to allow for 14 year olds marrying."
In Texas, the age of consent in 16. As you so rightly pointed out, it doesn't matter what the laws of other states are if the marriages are performed in Texas.
"Where is one boy that has been abandoned in Texas?"
It's not an issue in Texas, yet, because the YFZ residents were hand-picked by Warren Jeffs. The unwanted boys were left back in Utah and Arizona. The disparity in the number of 14-17 y/o girls to boys is evidence of that.
If the FLDS had stayed in Texas another 10 years, the majority of 14-17 y/o boys would have been either kicked out of the YFZ compound into the streets of El Dorado or shipped back to Utah and Arizona to be abandoned there.
It doesn't take a genious to figure out that if EVERY man has to be married to 3 or more wives, there aren't going to be enough girls, if all of the boys ages 14-17 are allowed to stay.
In Texas, the age of consent in 16. As you so rightly pointed out, it doesn't matter what the laws of other states are if the marriages are performed in Texas.
"Where is one boy that has been abandoned in Texas?"
It's not an issue in Texas, yet, because the YFZ residents were hand-picked by Warren Jeffs. The unwanted boys were left back in Utah and Arizona. The disparity in the number of 14-17 y/o girls to boys is evidence of that.
If the FLDS had stayed in Texas another 10 years, the majority of 14-17 y/o boys would have been either kicked out of the YFZ compound into the streets of El Dorado or shipped back to Utah and Arizona to be abandoned there.
It doesn't take a genious to figure out that if EVERY man has to be married to 3 or more wives, there aren't going to be enough girls, if all of the boys ages 14-17 are allowed to stay.
Hey son of Frank | 9:30 a.m. May 15, 2008
Did you know that the state of Texas already stated that it will not prosecute
for polygamy? So there goes your argument.
to illegal legal service plans | 9:35 a.m. May 15, 2008
Thank you for your intelligent comment and explanations. I hope the children
will be returned to their families although the way the service plans are stated
leaves a lot of room for the poor children to be adopted out before the year is
over.
God help us all | 9:34 a.m. May 15, 2008
Why aren't we hearing about what is happening to the children now?
How safe are the children in these foster homes - mentally or physicially" How thoroughly were the hundreds of foster homes screened before the "protected" children were sent to them? How many were allowed to stay with a sibling or neighbor? How many are feeling totally isolated and terrorized? What is being done to comfort them and provide them with a sense of safety? From my experience, some foster homes are very kind and caring, but many others are not! Were the foster parents trained in how to work with these very naive children?
Many of these children have been raised to fear any outsider more than the "boogie man". Now they live with him! From what I have seen the children are very well mannered, shy, soft spoken, and shocked by even "mild" cussing. How many will need therapy for post traumatic stress?
How safe are the children in these foster homes - mentally or physicially" How thoroughly were the hundreds of foster homes screened before the "protected" children were sent to them? How many were allowed to stay with a sibling or neighbor? How many are feeling totally isolated and terrorized? What is being done to comfort them and provide them with a sense of safety? From my experience, some foster homes are very kind and caring, but many others are not! Were the foster parents trained in how to work with these very naive children?
Many of these children have been raised to fear any outsider more than the "boogie man". Now they live with him! From what I have seen the children are very well mannered, shy, soft spoken, and shocked by even "mild" cussing. How many will need therapy for post traumatic stress?
Fought with CPS | 9:41 a.m. May 15, 2008
The plan that CPS has come up with is pretty much used in EVERY state. RE:
parents take parenting classes, psychological exam and a few back flips to prove
how bad the parents want their children back.
The sad thing is a majority of the parents who do everything that CPS requires them to do will not get their children back as CPS finds something else to accuse the parents of and it is usually far worse than the reason why the kids were removed in the first place. I know this because I had my children removed. Did all that they required only to have false allegations brought up against me. They used these allegations against me to keep me away from one of children and then proceeded to terminate my PR to three of my children but not the one who they claim made the allegations. With him they just wouldn't let us see each other. We now have contact and have for the last 3 years. We are healing. My son is planning to sue the state for violating his rights - no stable home enviroment. No contact with mom or dad.
The sad thing is a majority of the parents who do everything that CPS requires them to do will not get their children back as CPS finds something else to accuse the parents of and it is usually far worse than the reason why the kids were removed in the first place. I know this because I had my children removed. Did all that they required only to have false allegations brought up against me. They used these allegations against me to keep me away from one of children and then proceeded to terminate my PR to three of my children but not the one who they claim made the allegations. With him they just wouldn't let us see each other. We now have contact and have for the last 3 years. We are healing. My son is planning to sue the state for violating his rights - no stable home enviroment. No contact with mom or dad.
FLDS_Guy | 9:46 a.m. May 15, 2008
To AMICRAZY:
Yes, I think you are crazy. It was CPS who would not recognize any documentation. They wouldn't believe birth certificates or driver's licenses(until after the baby was born). I mean, how hard is it to call and see if a driver's license is valid or not? Can't any officer tell you that right off?
Besides, most of their documentation was confiscated, making it very difficult for them to prove ages. I honestly do not know of one FLDS person who does not have a birth certificate and Social Security number. Maybe there are some, but I've never heard of it firsthand. I also don't know of a single child old enough to comprehend it, that doesn't know who his or her birth mother and father are.
Yes, I think you are crazy. It was CPS who would not recognize any documentation. They wouldn't believe birth certificates or driver's licenses(until after the baby was born). I mean, how hard is it to call and see if a driver's license is valid or not? Can't any officer tell you that right off?
Besides, most of their documentation was confiscated, making it very difficult for them to prove ages. I honestly do not know of one FLDS person who does not have a birth certificate and Social Security number. Maybe there are some, but I've never heard of it firsthand. I also don't know of a single child old enough to comprehend it, that doesn't know who his or her birth mother and father are.
Re: FLDS_Guy | 9:48 a.m. May 15, 2008
You know very well that every one of those practices has been practiced and
promoted by your leader, Warren Jeffs.
"And where do you get all this information from? "
From numerous reports from authorities and former FLDS members who have observed these beliefs being taught, promoted and practiced by FLDS leaders and members.
Repent from afar, Bleeding the beast, Underage mariages, homeless FLDS boys wandering the streets of St. George (no FLDS girls, however), houses intentionally left unfinished to avoid paying property taxes, women who are married, but claim to be single to collect welfare... I could go on and on and cite dozens of examples, but, you already know what's really going on.
Even though you believe that none of those practices are illegal or immoral.
"And where do you get all this information from? "
From numerous reports from authorities and former FLDS members who have observed these beliefs being taught, promoted and practiced by FLDS leaders and members.
Repent from afar, Bleeding the beast, Underage mariages, homeless FLDS boys wandering the streets of St. George (no FLDS girls, however), houses intentionally left unfinished to avoid paying property taxes, women who are married, but claim to be single to collect welfare... I could go on and on and cite dozens of examples, but, you already know what's really going on.
Even though you believe that none of those practices are illegal or immoral.
LDS | 9:47 a.m. May 15, 2008
Amazing. flds women and children look very virtous, clean, and holy, and they
are....now look at american women, including painted faces of our LDS women, now
look at how muslim women dress, cover their selves...no wonder muslims hate us
and call us the "great satan" Book of Mormon specifically tells our
women to not adorn themselves....I am LDS and stand with our church and Prophet,
but I stand with the flds, and do not believe those children were abused.
period. How many LDS girls get pregnant at 14 or younger in
Utah...?????????????
The Texan | 9:49 a.m. May 15, 2008
Ah yes,
Individual input, something to drag this out even further. 463 children, with 463 attorneys, with 463 case workers, etc. It die under the weight of it own impossible to do.
To Keep your logic. The tests take over a month to do and then you have to sort out hundreds of individuals. I dare you to do it faster. Charges will come when the facts are evident, no sooner.
Murderous thugs on death row are still there are 20 years after due process. And you want what in 8 weeks? Dreamer.
Individual input, something to drag this out even further. 463 children, with 463 attorneys, with 463 case workers, etc. It die under the weight of it own impossible to do.
To Keep your logic. The tests take over a month to do and then you have to sort out hundreds of individuals. I dare you to do it faster. Charges will come when the facts are evident, no sooner.
Murderous thugs on death row are still there are 20 years after due process. And you want what in 8 weeks? Dreamer.
The Texan | 9:55 a.m. May 15, 2008
Let's see:
1. They lived at one address.
2. They lived together in a commune.
3. Parenting responsibilities were assigned per male leaders and may not reflect biological units.
4. Obedience to all commands was demanded.
etc.
And the letter is common to all of them. I WONDER WHY? Seems obvious to even the most un-lettered individual. Read all 9 pages. Live like this, this is the consequence.
1. They lived at one address.
2. They lived together in a commune.
3. Parenting responsibilities were assigned per male leaders and may not reflect biological units.
4. Obedience to all commands was demanded.
etc.
And the letter is common to all of them. I WONDER WHY? Seems obvious to even the most un-lettered individual. Read all 9 pages. Live like this, this is the consequence.
wyogirl | 10:02 a.m. May 15, 2008
Rational people know that CPS is not making money off of this mess - their
intent is to protect children from abuse. I'm sure those social workers
aren't spending their new found millions on boats and Hummers. I'm
not saying they havn't made mistakes, but claiming that they are kidnappers
and tyrants is silly. Why don't they go into inner cities and take those
kids away? 1 - because they don't have "leaders" that tell them
that if they leave they will be damned to hell, and in other ways trap them
behind closed walls. 2 - They do! I'm sure any CPS worker could tell you
that a high percentage of their cases come from poor neighborhoods.
FLDS guy - its pretty hard to say that your religion doesn't preach welfare fraud when 66% of Colorado City residents and an even higher percent of people on the Arizona side of the line RECEIVE WELFARE. Stand up like men and support your families yourselves - people would accept the "plural" lifestyle much more if you paid for it yourselves.
CPS doesn't say anywhere that they have to leave the ranch or denounce their religion. Public schools anyone?
FLDS guy - its pretty hard to say that your religion doesn't preach welfare fraud when 66% of Colorado City residents and an even higher percent of people on the Arizona side of the line RECEIVE WELFARE. Stand up like men and support your families yourselves - people would accept the "plural" lifestyle much more if you paid for it yourselves.
CPS doesn't say anywhere that they have to leave the ranch or denounce their religion. Public schools anyone?
FLDS_Guy | 10:03 a.m. May 15, 2008
"Some girls taken into protective custody in the YFZ Ranch raid were sent
from Canada for this express purpose."
Umm, no. I only heard of one Canadian (maybe there were others), but she was there visiting her grandmother. Anything wrong with that? It seems some of you are just absolutely determined to believe the worst which leaves me wondering: what sort of a mind is it that will twist any sort of innocent situation into thinking it's being used for immoral purposes? We generally judge people from our own hearts. Just think about that for a minute, please.
Umm, no. I only heard of one Canadian (maybe there were others), but she was there visiting her grandmother. Anything wrong with that? It seems some of you are just absolutely determined to believe the worst which leaves me wondering: what sort of a mind is it that will twist any sort of innocent situation into thinking it's being used for immoral purposes? We generally judge people from our own hearts. Just think about that for a minute, please.
Re: LIlathe | 10:12 a.m. May 15, 2008
"CPS's wording is meant to incite. Many girls ages 14-17 are
pregnant.
Ok well fine. Age 17 is perfectly legal to have sex in Texas with any aged man. Age 17 is the sexual age of consent. So why are we including 17 year olds in the count?"
Try using a little common sense.
If a girl just turned 17 and is pregnant, she probably got pregnant when she was only 16 when she was not legally old enough to give consent. CPS also listed mothers who were thought to be 14-17, which means they would have been impregnated before they were legally old enough to give consent.
All possible evidence of statutory rape and of forced underage marriages, which the FLDS members at the YFZ ranch knew was happening and supported.
Ok well fine. Age 17 is perfectly legal to have sex in Texas with any aged man. Age 17 is the sexual age of consent. So why are we including 17 year olds in the count?"
Try using a little common sense.
If a girl just turned 17 and is pregnant, she probably got pregnant when she was only 16 when she was not legally old enough to give consent. CPS also listed mothers who were thought to be 14-17, which means they would have been impregnated before they were legally old enough to give consent.
All possible evidence of statutory rape and of forced underage marriages, which the FLDS members at the YFZ ranch knew was happening and supported.
Strawman | 10:13 a.m. May 15, 2008
Hey everybody! look at any texas highschool! they have somebody pregnant
there....BLA BLA BLA BLA.......
this is weird and you pligs know it!!! you should move to an island to practice your creepy abusive pedophilia
this is weird and you pligs know it!!! you should move to an island to practice your creepy abusive pedophilia
Re: Red | 10:27 a.m. May 15, 2008
"You're confusing belief and action; not uncommon in these
postings."
Previous action coupled with threats to repeat the action can be construed as intent.
The FLDS weren't meerly teaching forced underage marriages, they had actively promoted and practiced forced underaged marriages.
If a man beat one of his children and made threats against the rest of his family, CPS would be fully justified in removing the children from the home and placing them in protective custody.
Although on a larger scale, the same premise applies to the FLDS who have already performed numerous underaged marriages, and were teaching and preparing to perform more. Underage girls who were pregnant or were already mothers is possible evidence that this practice was continuing.
That is exactly what CPS was using as their basis for removing the FLDS children to protective custody.
It's not just a belief, but something that is actively practiced.
Stop making this erroneous argument that the FLDS are simply being persecuted for their beliefs.
Previous action coupled with threats to repeat the action can be construed as intent.
The FLDS weren't meerly teaching forced underage marriages, they had actively promoted and practiced forced underaged marriages.
If a man beat one of his children and made threats against the rest of his family, CPS would be fully justified in removing the children from the home and placing them in protective custody.
Although on a larger scale, the same premise applies to the FLDS who have already performed numerous underaged marriages, and were teaching and preparing to perform more. Underage girls who were pregnant or were already mothers is possible evidence that this practice was continuing.
That is exactly what CPS was using as their basis for removing the FLDS children to protective custody.
It's not just a belief, but something that is actively practiced.
Stop making this erroneous argument that the FLDS are simply being persecuted for their beliefs.
Cults are dangerous. | 10:35 a.m. May 15, 2008
They need to go in and raid every FLDS compound in this country and stop all
these creepy inbreeds from breeding.
Re: TexasRN | 10:40 a.m. May 15, 2008
They won't admit those 26 are adults (most potentially) until after they
can seize their unborn babies, then admit it and AFTER ALL these parents have to
sign "guilty" to start their service plans to get their children. If
they don't sign "guilty" they don't get their children..
Loose loose situation unless Austin judges rule LEGALLY in these upcoming
individual (yeah!) cases for some of the FLDS families. For those young families
fighting for their lives I wish and pray every day for their success. Illegality
in the courts is no excuse for justice.
Re: Re: Abused | 10:46 a.m. May 15, 2008
Your claim of child rape and forced marriage have not been proven with evidence
for THIS Ranch. There must be evidence. So far all these "underage
marriages" are starting to pan out to be within legal ages outside of the
polygamy part. Before you start spreading rumors look for the evidence, which
would and should have been presented in the "cattle call" court case.
Now, all these families have been called guilty on no evidence, only suspicion
and potential. This is a dangerous precedent and if you don't see it, your
public schooling failed you..get your tax money back. There might be one or two
(maybe, we have yet to see) that MIGHT fit this claim of illegality or actual
rape (no woman has claimed this at THIS ranch) but your mindset is punishing all
of them. This can start leaking to all Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, etc that
have contrary views such as homosexuality or authority in the home (much better
than none)and based don the POTENTIAL your children will follow your religious
beliefs that may one day be labeled "abusive", which may be soon they
can sell your child to the highest federal bidder.
Wild Bill | 10:54 a.m. May 15, 2008
Again I am reading some statements from readers that
assume that the FLDS is guilty of something. First
where is the charges that started this unlawfull action?
As far as parenting plans are concerned, they are proposed by the CPS and parents have verry litle input into the plan.
The CPS agent has already stated that for the FLDS
children to have any contact with the people who love
(parents) they need to renounice there beleiefs.
Again who is abusing whom in this case. I grew up in a foster home. Talk about abuse. Foster homes are not the ansawer. The ansawer is to allow these people to live there beliefs and have them agree to not have any underage or forced marriages.
Simple let the kids go back, have them all agree to this, prosecute any criminal behavior and move on.
The FLDS are much better parents that a majority of Americans. Hey they don't allow TV, wow that is a great start.
It's TV that brain washed Christina who thinks public school should be manditory. It's TV than
tells us who to vote for and what to buy.
Christina, follow the Police to the kool aid.
assume that the FLDS is guilty of something. First
where is the charges that started this unlawfull action?
As far as parenting plans are concerned, they are proposed by the CPS and parents have verry litle input into the plan.
The CPS agent has already stated that for the FLDS
children to have any contact with the people who love
(parents) they need to renounice there beleiefs.
Again who is abusing whom in this case. I grew up in a foster home. Talk about abuse. Foster homes are not the ansawer. The ansawer is to allow these people to live there beliefs and have them agree to not have any underage or forced marriages.
Simple let the kids go back, have them all agree to this, prosecute any criminal behavior and move on.
The FLDS are much better parents that a majority of Americans. Hey they don't allow TV, wow that is a great start.
It's TV that brain washed Christina who thinks public school should be manditory. It's TV than
tells us who to vote for and what to buy.
Christina, follow the Police to the kool aid.
To: Im a Teacher | 10:56 a.m. May 15, 2008
"Every thing that I've seen on the videos and have read about the FLDS
school is evidence to me that it offered a good learning environment. I'm
waiting to hear any proof that it did otherwise."
Just read the transcripts from Oprah (on her website) yesterday and you will see otherwise. History is from their point of view and altered to fit Jeffs world.
After reading the transcript my eyes have been opened a little further into the life of the FLDS.
Just read the transcripts from Oprah (on her website) yesterday and you will see otherwise. History is from their point of view and altered to fit Jeffs world.
After reading the transcript my eyes have been opened a little further into the life of the FLDS.
Re: The Only Spouse | 10:59 a.m. May 15, 2008
We legally allow a child to grow up with no mother but two fathers... I bet you
feel this is okay.. no mother to run to but a choice of two fathers. At least
SOMEONE loves them if your claims are actually true. It seems like some mothers
and fathers are fighting to death to get their children--if that is not love, I
don't know what is. There are too many boys and girls who would give their
right arm to wait for a nurse-mother to care for them...too many children with
no one to hug or run to. Focus your hate on those parents...you are looking at
this DIFFERENT culture through your ethnocentric eyes. MHMR labeled these
children as the most well adjusted children they had seen in a long time. Can
you say that for the children with no mother(s) or father?
Just | 11:02 a.m. May 15, 2008
Just because you believe it doesn't make it true. You believe that the
children are being raised in dormitories, despite the Bishop's records
which show apartments. You think they are "bleeding the beast" yet
Texas reported no welfare recipients among the FLDS. You claim they abandon boys
yet even TX has found not one missing child and actively sought such. You
believe children do not know their own biological mothers. They know their own
mother's and also know other women that love them as if their own...that is
a real horror growing up with more than just a biological mother. Both of my
parents are deceased and they were both without families. So, I am left with
nobody. Sorry, but their extensive families seem a blessing.
Re: The Texan | 11:04 a.m. May 15, 2008
You are comparing a murder in prison for 20 years to a young child??? Eight
weeks to a baby or toddler or young child can seem like a life time and affects
them for life. These children are not the criminals (until the day they turn 18,
then apparently they are). Your reasoning is not logical.. You seem heartless to
the suffering of children and some of these families loosing all for their
children (like Lori Jessop)..
to: Im a teacher | 11:20 a.m. May 15, 2008
It's doubtful that FLDS kids take SAT's since they typically
don't go to college. Thank Warren Jeffs for that. They boys work for the
collective and the girls get married and have babies...at best they have an
eighth grade education...according to ex-FLDS who've gone on record. Their
education is dominated by religious studies...they have no real world
skills...other than farming/construction for the most part. A few of the male
elites will have advanced education, but they are the exception. The girls are
kept dumb and pregnant. So much for No Child Left Behind...
David S | 11:22 a.m. May 15, 2008
From the Mental Health Workers (yesterday's article--eye-witnesses to the
treatment of the women and children:
� "These lovely women and children were gracious and kind always. They tried to cooperate with every request, even when terrified that they were going to be separated from their children. The mothers are incredibly loving and patient with the children."
� "My observation of the mothers' interaction with their children was one of love, warmth and kindness. Not once did I hear an unkind word, yelling or negative response to a child's behavior. I really feel these women could teach us all a lot about positive parenting."
� "CPS had as their primary focus the sexual abuse that was alleged, rather than the emotional abuse I felt they were creating."
� "Separated from older children (12 and up) and for days not even allowed to wave at them across the open field � told they would never see them again if they continued to wave � threatened with jail for waving at them."
Again, other than prosecuting underage marriage, what can CPS teach these people? Who should teach proper parenting to whom?
� "These lovely women and children were gracious and kind always. They tried to cooperate with every request, even when terrified that they were going to be separated from their children. The mothers are incredibly loving and patient with the children."
� "My observation of the mothers' interaction with their children was one of love, warmth and kindness. Not once did I hear an unkind word, yelling or negative response to a child's behavior. I really feel these women could teach us all a lot about positive parenting."
� "CPS had as their primary focus the sexual abuse that was alleged, rather than the emotional abuse I felt they were creating."
� "Separated from older children (12 and up) and for days not even allowed to wave at them across the open field � told they would never see them again if they continued to wave � threatened with jail for waving at them."
Again, other than prosecuting underage marriage, what can CPS teach these people? Who should teach proper parenting to whom?
Re: To Im a Teacher | 11:22 a.m. May 15, 2008
Go to the Common Room and you will find the documented sources that the Texas
Education Agency labeled these homeschooled children AT OR ABOVE their peers in
education. That is why their education is not being called into question or
monitored by CPS... you know that even if ONE child was behind they would be
plastering the GROUP for this. Why don't you investigate the Saudia Arabia
funded US Muslim schools who teach hatred towards non-Muslims and the United
States-- I bet their "education" would be altered to fit their
imam's point of view... Having a religious tone to a private or homeschool
is not illegal.
Consequences | 11:23 a.m. May 15, 2008
The FLDS'ers must pay the consequences for following the teachings of a
deranged leader, Warren Jeffs. The chickens are coming home to roost,
people.
Warren himself admitted that he was not a prophet, but a fraud.
Warren himself admitted that he was not a prophet, but a fraud.
Anonymous | 11:27 a.m. May 15, 2008
Underage marriage is a crime in our society, the difference in ages between
girls who were being married and their husbands amounts to statutory rape
The difference in age between the elder and the younger spouse is irrelevant, so long as the younger spouse has the consent of his or her parents.
I think you're confusing icky and illegal.
The difference in age between the elder and the younger spouse is irrelevant, so long as the younger spouse has the consent of his or her parents.
I think you're confusing icky and illegal.
to: FLDS Guy | 11:40 a.m. May 15, 2008
No need for your critics to judge from their hearts. The FLDS lifestyle has
been well documented...Several books and interviews by exFLDS members. Court
case evidence. Excellent book "Under the banner of Heaven" by Jon
Krakauer documents long history. The group's own records confiscated by
authorities is corroborating. The problem here is the FLDS has been sheltered
for so long, they don't understand abuse as the mainstream society sees it.
Ed | 11:40 a.m. May 15, 2008
Re: wyogirl 10:02.
You are qualified for the CPS!
Facts: Colorado City is in Arizona and just accross the line from Utah.
You could be on a street and one side of the street is Utah (Hillsdale) and the other side of the street is Arizona (Colorado City).
Underaged marriages: Are they legal and if not what is the issue?
What is the age when you can marry in Texas? Were they married in Texas?
Becareful not to visit Texas. They are not too bright. I should qualify that. The CPS are not too bright!
You are qualified for the CPS!
Facts: Colorado City is in Arizona and just accross the line from Utah.
You could be on a street and one side of the street is Utah (Hillsdale) and the other side of the street is Arizona (Colorado City).
Underaged marriages: Are they legal and if not what is the issue?
What is the age when you can marry in Texas? Were they married in Texas?
Becareful not to visit Texas. They are not too bright. I should qualify that. The CPS are not too bright!
I Man Fraidddd...... | 11:44 a.m. May 15, 2008
CPS is well on its way to burying that compound. YFZ ranch will become nothing
more than a stop on a sightseeing tour.
UT and AZ, please take note ---- this is how you have to crack down.
While the FLDS is ruled by the Men, it relies on a supply of women/females. You break that continuim and the mess will collapse.
Hey, FLDS men might have to start looking fondly upon one another.
UT and AZ, please take note ---- this is how you have to crack down.
While the FLDS is ruled by the Men, it relies on a supply of women/females. You break that continuim and the mess will collapse.
Hey, FLDS men might have to start looking fondly upon one another.
Blame Shifting | 11:44 a.m. May 15, 2008
The FLDS supporters are masters at shifting the problem to CPS (who have made
mistakes, but their intention is honorable). I'm also tired of the
"slippery slope" arguments. They are paranoid and delusional.
Welfare Fraud | 11:51 a.m. May 15, 2008
The welfare fraud is occuring in Colorado City. Many of these wives were
recently shipped to YFZ, but their checks are being cashed in AZ. The feds are
looking into it.
Legalize Polygamy? | 11:59 a.m. May 15, 2008
If, and it is only if, polygamy was legalized, these communities would start to
open themselves up to the rest of the world. It is because of polygamy that
they have closed the doors to the outside world and gotten into this mess in the
first place. It would take time, but as the doors to the community begin to
open, women and children will be more free to leave.
Re: Just.... | 12:00 p.m. May 15, 2008
If you want to pretend that their is no connection between the FLDS living in
Utah and Arizona, and the FLDS living in Texas, that's your delusion.
The people living in Texas came from Utah and Arizona, so they are the very same people who were bleeding the beast, committing welfare fraud, abandoning their teenaged boys, etc., etc.
Just because they haven't done any of those things, yet, doesn't mean that won't be doing any of those things in the future.
One thing we do know is that the FLDS in Utah, Arizona and Texas follow the same leader, Warren Jeffs, who actively promotes the most serious offense, child rape, in the guise of forced underage marriages.
THAT is what is being investigated in Texas and THAT is why the children were removed.
That said, you can't dismiss the other practices that these very people were doing before they moved to Texas.
For those whining that there is no PROOF, that's why it's still called an INVESTIGATION.
The people living in Texas came from Utah and Arizona, so they are the very same people who were bleeding the beast, committing welfare fraud, abandoning their teenaged boys, etc., etc.
Just because they haven't done any of those things, yet, doesn't mean that won't be doing any of those things in the future.
One thing we do know is that the FLDS in Utah, Arizona and Texas follow the same leader, Warren Jeffs, who actively promotes the most serious offense, child rape, in the guise of forced underage marriages.
THAT is what is being investigated in Texas and THAT is why the children were removed.
That said, you can't dismiss the other practices that these very people were doing before they moved to Texas.
For those whining that there is no PROOF, that's why it's still called an INVESTIGATION.
Get a life FLDS | 12:00 p.m. May 15, 2008
WOW, it never fails to amaze me how many men post on these FLDS posts who
support child rape. You people are sick! You need to have your heads evaluated
by a professional. Perhaps, you are as well all perpetrators of the polygamy
life style. Theres no doubt in my mind.
To FLDS_Guy | 12:05 p.m. May 15, 2008
FLDS_Guy, your "prophet" is a convicted criminal. He's been tried
and convicted by a court of justice for forcing a 14 year old girl to marry and
have sex with someone against her will. It's a well documented case with
substantial evidence to convict him. What additional evidence do we need that
the FLDS not only practice, but also teach, encourage and FORCE underage girls
to have sex? a jury of 12 found your "prophet" guilty of it?
Get it Straight | 12:09 p.m. May 15, 2008
It seems that many folks posting here are confusing the Texas marriage laws and
what constitutes marriage. Marriage in Texas is still one man and one woman
(thankfully). THESE FOLKS ARE NOT LEGALLY MARRIED IF THEY ARE ALREADY MARRIED
TO SOMEONE ELSE! So, whether the legal age to marry is 14 or 16 is only an
issue for those few cases where the young girl is the first wife. If a
50-year-old man who already has a legal wife takes another "spiritual"
wife who is 17, that's not marriage--THAT'S STATUTORY RAPE!
Re: Anonymous | 12:17 p.m. May 15, 2008
"The difference in age between the elder and the younger spouse is
irrelevant, so long as the younger spouse has the consent of his or her
parents."
The difference in age is a concern, but the real concern is FORCE.
Unfortunately, with the FLDS, they don't think that they need the consent of the girl. She has no say in the matter. This is who you're going to marry sweetie. Even if he's 50 years older than you and a nasty old creep with a dozen wives, just accept it.
This whole nasty affair is on the verge of blowing up and some of the more enlightened women are going to take this opportunity to free themselves and their children from the clutches of these controlling men. Then the truth will become even more evident.
That fear, is what is driving many of the posts from the FLDS men here; not the loss of their children who they have very little personal interaction with anyway.
The difference in age is a concern, but the real concern is FORCE.
Unfortunately, with the FLDS, they don't think that they need the consent of the girl. She has no say in the matter. This is who you're going to marry sweetie. Even if he's 50 years older than you and a nasty old creep with a dozen wives, just accept it.
This whole nasty affair is on the verge of blowing up and some of the more enlightened women are going to take this opportunity to free themselves and their children from the clutches of these controlling men. Then the truth will become even more evident.
That fear, is what is driving many of the posts from the FLDS men here; not the loss of their children who they have very little personal interaction with anyway.
J-man | 12:30 p.m. May 15, 2008
To FLDS_Guy:
Just one question. If there hasn't been any wrongdoing by the FLDS in Texas, then why have the FLDS leaders fled?
Just one question. If there hasn't been any wrongdoing by the FLDS in Texas, then why have the FLDS leaders fled?
To Blame shifting | 12:33 p.m. May 15, 2008
If is an "honorable intention" to defend with a gun, someone that is
being robbed, but when you shoot that gun and miss the culprit but hit a
bystander...you suffer the consequences.
CPS has overstepped its bounds, not just among the FLDS, but nationwide. Why are their check and balances in other governmental agencies, but none with our most precious resource..the children? Why have so many children within custody of CPS been mortally injured, raped, sodomized and etc with little to no consequence to the system. That is all many that post on here ask....you don't have to be FLDS to smell injustice and overstepping of Rights without checks and balances.
CPS has overstepped its bounds, not just among the FLDS, but nationwide. Why are their check and balances in other governmental agencies, but none with our most precious resource..the children? Why have so many children within custody of CPS been mortally injured, raped, sodomized and etc with little to no consequence to the system. That is all many that post on here ask....you don't have to be FLDS to smell injustice and overstepping of Rights without checks and balances.
CPS Service Plan | 12:36 p.m. May 15, 2008
Read the Plan that Deseret has posted. They are assuming that EACH family has
sexually molested, broke their child's bones, and emotionally abused them
AND neglected them!!!! How ludacris! Their plan is based on the FACT that this
occurred. They also carefully worded things such as "are believed (not
proven) to be 14-17 years of age" and "broken bones suspect of
physical abuse (not proven)" and that older boys are molesting every boy in
this plan. This is condemning the village for one hut's problems... very
unconstitutional.. How would we like to be under this "plan" if this
was going on next door?
Re: Blame Shifting | 12:43 p.m. May 15, 2008
Yes, CPS may have intentions that are "honorable" but skewed. Do a
little research on families that are not involved in this case but have had
dealings with CPS (some have even posted here) and you tell me if we are
"paranoid and delusional". These stories (outside of this Eldorado
one) are scary and inhumane. Pick up "Forgotten Children" by Texas
Comptroller Carol Strayhorn and you will see how "paranoid and
delusional" we are. Even she saw the abuse of power and mistreatment of
children--even recorded them in her own words. There are MOUNTAINS of stories of
families who have been at the hands of CPS and have done everything to get their
children back to have TPR.. There is even documented evidence of neighbors
placing "orders" to adopt neighborhood kids and these agents (not all
are bad, but the few ones who are make life torturous) said they would get them
for these families. You seem to not have dealt with the dark side of CPS--which
is dark indeed. I thank them for lives they saved but I detest them for the
ones they have destroyed. There are a lot more "destroyed" lives than
you would think from CPS
Canadian FLDS | 12:46 p.m. May 15, 2008
From the article about the Canadian FLDS:
"While Jeffs' followers stick to fundamentalist practices, [Former FLDS bishop Winston] Blackmore has liberalized his family and followers, discouraging forced marriages and young brides; he no longer requires women to wear specific dresses but urges them, instead, to dress conservatively."
"Several women who have left describe a flow of underage females across the border, through Idaho, sent from Bountiful to the Texas compound for arranged marriages. Canadian officials say at least one of their citizens was seized by Texas authorities in last month's raid; Bountiful residents said there were at least several more."
"But some women who have left the sect, including Debbie Palmer, say girls as young as 14 have been forced to marry older men. Palmer, whose father had six wives, is the oldest of 47 children. She said that many residents know of no other life. She left in 1988."
To anyone with half a brain, it's painfully clear that the practice of forced underaged marriages is not only taught in Texas, but is actively practiced by the FLDS living at the YFZ ranch.
"While Jeffs' followers stick to fundamentalist practices, [Former FLDS bishop Winston] Blackmore has liberalized his family and followers, discouraging forced marriages and young brides; he no longer requires women to wear specific dresses but urges them, instead, to dress conservatively."
"Several women who have left describe a flow of underage females across the border, through Idaho, sent from Bountiful to the Texas compound for arranged marriages. Canadian officials say at least one of their citizens was seized by Texas authorities in last month's raid; Bountiful residents said there were at least several more."
"But some women who have left the sect, including Debbie Palmer, say girls as young as 14 have been forced to marry older men. Palmer, whose father had six wives, is the oldest of 47 children. She said that many residents know of no other life. She left in 1988."
To anyone with half a brain, it's painfully clear that the practice of forced underaged marriages is not only taught in Texas, but is actively practiced by the FLDS living at the YFZ ranch.
Re: Blame | 12:45 p.m. May 15, 2008
I hope to the good Lord you don't get a false call to CPS on your children
to see and prove how paranoid and delusional we are.
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