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Long litany of legal disputes begins in FLDS raid
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Samme | 1:24 p.m. May 14, 2008
>>The more wives the more spiritual you are.<<
You have to be to keep them all happy.
You have to be to keep them all happy.
Samme | 1:28 p.m. May 14, 2008
>>The State of Texas = Nazis? What about those who subjugate their free
will; believing that another human being is the living prophet of
God...<<
You are not talking about the Catholic Pope here, are you?
You are not talking about the Catholic Pope here, are you?
Comments continue below
hazzahh! and huh? | 1:29 p.m. May 14, 2008
Sharon, couldn't agree with you more. No question that it's a touchy
issue and very complex. But you have a way of cutting through the drivel to
address the tangible realities.
Dear "Gentle Folk": who the heck is "Pastor White"? If you mean Reverand Dr. Wright from Chicago, I'm guessing you wouldn't really be open to hearing his opinion anyway. But nice attempt at slipping some totally unrelated political argument into this discussion! Or maybe you meant Colonel Mustard, in the Compound with the Candlestick?
Dear "Gentle Folk": who the heck is "Pastor White"? If you mean Reverand Dr. Wright from Chicago, I'm guessing you wouldn't really be open to hearing his opinion anyway. But nice attempt at slipping some totally unrelated political argument into this discussion! Or maybe you meant Colonel Mustard, in the Compound with the Candlestick?
Phil | 1:35 p.m. May 14, 2008
Uhm, "Really Confused" sounds......., uhm, confused. First, he/she is
confused as to the nature of a living prophet; I have never heard any of them
say they speak greater truths than any other human can know. The role of a
prophet is to receive revelation from God and to give it to His people (note
that is God's people, not the prophet's people). The scriptures say,
"Surely the Lord God will do nothing except he first revealeth his secrets
unto his servants the prophets". That is King James Version if you're
wondering. Not saying the FLDS prophet is a true prophet (I personally believe
that he is not); however, the FLDS believe he is and they act accordingly. How
refreshing is that in this world?
re: wrz | 1:38 p.m. May 14, 2008
So, if my religion practices human sacrifice, does that mean I am exempt from
murder because my religion mandates I kill? Sorry there is a line and that line
is if a religion practices anything falling outside of the law then the members
of that religion are in violation of the law and can be convicted accordingly.
Just ask Warren Jeffs, he'll tell you all about it.
Sure, you can practice any type of religious behavior you want, but that doesn't mean you won't face the consequences of breaking the law. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. You may think you're above the law and chosen by God, but you still live in a land with laws that is going to hold you accountable for those laws.
Bottom line, the FLDS are guilty of polygamy, fraud, kidnapping, tax evasion, and acquiring property under false pretense and they should be prosecuted accordingly.
Sure, you can practice any type of religious behavior you want, but that doesn't mean you won't face the consequences of breaking the law. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's. You may think you're above the law and chosen by God, but you still live in a land with laws that is going to hold you accountable for those laws.
Bottom line, the FLDS are guilty of polygamy, fraud, kidnapping, tax evasion, and acquiring property under false pretense and they should be prosecuted accordingly.
Re: Really Confused | 1:46 p.m. May 14, 2008
Two wrongs do not make a right. We are concerned about the Consitutional abuse
precedent here..set up to convict the guilty and protect the innocent.
Re: Anonymous
"an adult male that can look at a teen girl sexually is sick"
We would agree, but would you extend this to teen boys to look on a teen girl sexually?
Re: Leroy
According to Grits for Breakfast, the original court statment claimed CPS only had 5 underage mothers. On the day to separate the mothers from the children, 26 were "found" to be minors. Coincidence? Now, these 26 are labled "disputed minors" (probably only until they they give birth, then they are adults) according to CPS records. So, we are left with probably only 5 legit underage mothers. Wow! A lot of sexual rape, abuse, and forced marriages..seems pervasive to me! Go after the 5 perverted men and leave the rest alone unless FACTS can prove other true abuses to the children.
Re: Anonymous
"an adult male that can look at a teen girl sexually is sick"
We would agree, but would you extend this to teen boys to look on a teen girl sexually?
Re: Leroy
According to Grits for Breakfast, the original court statment claimed CPS only had 5 underage mothers. On the day to separate the mothers from the children, 26 were "found" to be minors. Coincidence? Now, these 26 are labled "disputed minors" (probably only until they they give birth, then they are adults) according to CPS records. So, we are left with probably only 5 legit underage mothers. Wow! A lot of sexual rape, abuse, and forced marriages..seems pervasive to me! Go after the 5 perverted men and leave the rest alone unless FACTS can prove other true abuses to the children.
Re: re: Re: Bill | 1:46 p.m. May 14, 2008
Bill, I never said any of that. Go look at my post...wait let me just paste it
below:
"To Bill, do you think the FLDS are going to release the photos of the 60 year old men and 14 year old "wives?" Of course not! They aren't idiots. This is a PR game. They round up all the "normal" looking photos and give them to the press. The press then use the photos and we sit there thinking, "Well, what a nice family. How dare Texas pick on these poor people."
The same goes for the videos on the websites. We see children happily playing on the ranch and then crying in CPS custody. It's all to draw sympathy for the FLDS. They may not be doctors and lawyers, but they certainly are apt at making things appear differently than they are. I don't trust propaganda. You always have to look at the source of the information. Everyone has an agenda."
Where do I condemn anyone? I simply answered your question as to why we don't see pictures of the 60 year old men and 14 year old wives. It's a PR game.
"To Bill, do you think the FLDS are going to release the photos of the 60 year old men and 14 year old "wives?" Of course not! They aren't idiots. This is a PR game. They round up all the "normal" looking photos and give them to the press. The press then use the photos and we sit there thinking, "Well, what a nice family. How dare Texas pick on these poor people."
The same goes for the videos on the websites. We see children happily playing on the ranch and then crying in CPS custody. It's all to draw sympathy for the FLDS. They may not be doctors and lawyers, but they certainly are apt at making things appear differently than they are. I don't trust propaganda. You always have to look at the source of the information. Everyone has an agenda."
Where do I condemn anyone? I simply answered your question as to why we don't see pictures of the 60 year old men and 14 year old wives. It's a PR game.
To Bill | 1:48 p.m. May 14, 2008
Bill, you're funny.
The Portrait | 1:52 p.m. May 14, 2008
Look at the family portrait of the Jessops. The dad looks related to the mom.
Phil in NC | 1:52 p.m. May 14, 2008
wrz, is right; the Constitution says it all and, all of you people who think
that CPS was justified in doing what they did to those families will be the
first ones to stand by when the Gestapo comes into your neighborhood and takes
away families; all the while assuring them that they are just being relocated
and that the children can remain with their mothers. When WW II ended, may such
people had to do a lot of soul searching, asking themselves, how they could have
looked the other way and let such things happen. Complicity doesn't just
involve action; it involves inaction also. The more people look on and say,
"Well, they probably deserved it for some reason", the more complacent
they remain when it comes closer to home. Before you know it, there are two
people on your doorstep knocking (if you're lucky) and demanding for you to
load onto the buses.
I will believe this is about abuse when CPS and the State of Texas prove to the world that there was abuse. Innuendo and hearsay are admissible only in Kangaroo Courts. Until then, it is about the violation of Constitutionally protected RIGHTS.
I will believe this is about abuse when CPS and the State of Texas prove to the world that there was abuse. Innuendo and hearsay are admissible only in Kangaroo Courts. Until then, it is about the violation of Constitutionally protected RIGHTS.
Solution | 2:06 p.m. May 14, 2008
I vote to return the children provided the parents refrain from naming any more
newborns "Rulon."
dont believe them | 2:05 p.m. May 14, 2008
Attention FLDS (and supporters) - It is painfully obvious that you people care
more for your religion than you do for your children. If the child
doesn�t do exactly as required by your extremely strict
religion, they are kicked out. And not just kicked out �
they are banished from every having a relationship with you
� ever. That shows a total disregard for your
children�s well being.
So stop with the sympathy attempts. We believe you to be hapless sheep following a crazy �prophet�s� directives and caring much more about yourselves than you do about your children. Otherwise you wouldn�t choose your religion over your own children, which you do every time you let the �prophet� determine your child�s fate and banish your own children from your lives. And if you really cared about your children, you would give them the tools needed to survive in the real world instead of trying to imprison them in your little group. Ignoring child brides, abuse, etc � you are simply not good parents, as you do not let your children become their own person. Texas is being kinder to your children than you could possibly understand.
So stop with the sympathy attempts. We believe you to be hapless sheep following a crazy �prophet�s� directives and caring much more about yourselves than you do about your children. Otherwise you wouldn�t choose your religion over your own children, which you do every time you let the �prophet� determine your child�s fate and banish your own children from your lives. And if you really cared about your children, you would give them the tools needed to survive in the real world instead of trying to imprison them in your little group. Ignoring child brides, abuse, etc � you are simply not good parents, as you do not let your children become their own person. Texas is being kinder to your children than you could possibly understand.
Stop | 2:11 p.m. May 14, 2008
Quit comparing the CPS to Nazis. The FLDS has more in common with
them...starting with their master-race philosophy.
BLF | 2:09 p.m. May 14, 2008
OK, WRZ, that means as long as I say it's about religion, I can rape and
pillage as I please? I can throw teen-age boys out in the street and force girls
to marry grandfathers and have babies when they are still teen-agers? I can,
because I am the "prophet," take one man's family and give it to
another man, order young girls to marry their cousins? Oh, yeah. Freedom of
religion. That's what it is.
Anonymous | 2:18 p.m. May 14, 2008
The problem is there is no commandment such as:
"Thou shalt not have sex with your children."
"Thou shalt not have sex with your children."
Too "Anonymous | 1:10 p.m" | 2:27 p.m. May 14, 2008
What if these girls don't want to get out of this abuse and be kids again?
Do you think it would be affective to FORCE them to become kids again (against
their will)? Is it really possible to force someone to act like a child again
once they are used to living like an adult?
Not condoning what got them in the mess they are in now. Just something to think about when implementing a remedy.
I think when you force someone to do something that is against their core values it rarely works permanetly. For the little kids you may have gotten them early enough to make this work. But taking the teenagers (who are almost adults by our standards who ARE adults by FLDS standards) and forcing them to act like kids again (especially if they fight it) probably won't have the long term result you would expect, mainly because we don't live in a perfect world and no matter how smart our gov is, they can't define what is "Normal" or "Perfect" for everyone and force them to live that way or suffer the wrath of gov crack-downs to force them to conform to the mold.
Not condoning what got them in the mess they are in now. Just something to think about when implementing a remedy.
I think when you force someone to do something that is against their core values it rarely works permanetly. For the little kids you may have gotten them early enough to make this work. But taking the teenagers (who are almost adults by our standards who ARE adults by FLDS standards) and forcing them to act like kids again (especially if they fight it) probably won't have the long term result you would expect, mainly because we don't live in a perfect world and no matter how smart our gov is, they can't define what is "Normal" or "Perfect" for everyone and force them to live that way or suffer the wrath of gov crack-downs to force them to conform to the mold.
John Lambert | 2:43 p.m. May 14, 2008
To the May 14th, 10:18 AM post,
If there are 26 girls with disputed minor status, that gives us 5 girls who are clearly minors and mothers/pregnant.
Secondly, to say "Half th little girls were pregnant" is the most misleading statement I have read this week. When did teenagers become "little girls?". It is half of the females between ages 12 and 17 that CPS claims were pregnant and or mothers (not all actually pregnant) and the calculated percentage will change as CPS is forced to admit they over counted minors.
The longer this goes on the more outraged I am by CPS's disregard for the law. The call was so easy to prove false just by checking with the local doctor, that going into the ranch was a disregard for the rules of justice.
I disagree with the fundamentalists on their view about the status of African-Americans before God, about the acceptability of plural marriage presently practiced, the identity of Heavenly Mother and many other things. However I do not think that people should be inprisoned on false charges and so oppose the actions of the state of Texas.
If there are 26 girls with disputed minor status, that gives us 5 girls who are clearly minors and mothers/pregnant.
Secondly, to say "Half th little girls were pregnant" is the most misleading statement I have read this week. When did teenagers become "little girls?". It is half of the females between ages 12 and 17 that CPS claims were pregnant and or mothers (not all actually pregnant) and the calculated percentage will change as CPS is forced to admit they over counted minors.
The longer this goes on the more outraged I am by CPS's disregard for the law. The call was so easy to prove false just by checking with the local doctor, that going into the ranch was a disregard for the rules of justice.
I disagree with the fundamentalists on their view about the status of African-Americans before God, about the acceptability of plural marriage presently practiced, the identity of Heavenly Mother and many other things. However I do not think that people should be inprisoned on false charges and so oppose the actions of the state of Texas.
Ziana Glo | 2:49 p.m. May 14, 2008
Let's hope she is allowed to get a high school diploma and given the
opportunity to go to college and pursue a career before having a family. If she
is returned to the cult...unlikely. Once you are saddled with 2 or 3 kids with
no survival skills you have no choices, in spite of what the FLDS mothers say.
I ask the CPS in Texas to locate volunteers to mentor the teens in custody.
Even if they are eventually returned to the tribe, hopefully something will
stick. We have a window of opportunity to change this repressive cycle.
Anonymous | 2:56 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: The Portrait
"Look at the family portrait of the Jessops. The dad looks related to the mom."
So you think that's a good reason to take their kids away? I suppose it's as good as imprisoning an adult because you think she looks like a minor.
"Look at the family portrait of the Jessops. The dad looks related to the mom."
So you think that's a good reason to take their kids away? I suppose it's as good as imprisoning an adult because you think she looks like a minor.
J-man | 3:03 p.m. May 14, 2008
Didn't Uncle Warren outlaw the Internet for the FLDS? Then why are so many
FLDS people on here using this blog as a forum for sympathy?
Forget the polygamy issue for a moment. Marrying underage girls is against the law! In normal society, we call the men who do it pedophiles. Has anyone watched Dateline with Chris Hanson when they set up Internet stings and bust dirty old men trying to hook up with teenage girls? The FLDS are doing the same thing, but using religion as the pretense.
AND THERE'S STILL NO CLUE WHERE MERRIL JESSOP IS HIDING...
Forget the polygamy issue for a moment. Marrying underage girls is against the law! In normal society, we call the men who do it pedophiles. Has anyone watched Dateline with Chris Hanson when they set up Internet stings and bust dirty old men trying to hook up with teenage girls? The FLDS are doing the same thing, but using religion as the pretense.
AND THERE'S STILL NO CLUE WHERE MERRIL JESSOP IS HIDING...
Anonymous | 3:06 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: re: re: re: Bill
"To Bill, do you think the FLDS are going to release the photos of the 60 year old men and 14 year old "wives?"
This family happens to be the one in the news.
CPS insisted the pregnant mom was a minor and held her captive on that basis until she had the baby. Then they said, OK your an adult, free to go, but leave the baby, it's now property of Texas.
THAT'S why you're looking at this picture.
Anyway, even if CPS has a photo of a 60 year old with a 19 year old wife, that's still not a basis for removing their kids. The 19 year old has to be forced into marriage or you have no case at all.
Don't hate.
"To Bill, do you think the FLDS are going to release the photos of the 60 year old men and 14 year old "wives?"
This family happens to be the one in the news.
CPS insisted the pregnant mom was a minor and held her captive on that basis until she had the baby. Then they said, OK your an adult, free to go, but leave the baby, it's now property of Texas.
THAT'S why you're looking at this picture.
Anyway, even if CPS has a photo of a 60 year old with a 19 year old wife, that's still not a basis for removing their kids. The 19 year old has to be forced into marriage or you have no case at all.
Don't hate.
Anonymous | 3:07 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: Solution
No way. I thought Rulon was a cool name.
No way. I thought Rulon was a cool name.
Anonymous | 3:14 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: don't believe them
If the FLDS are kicking out minors, you should tell CPS, because that's not one of their accusations.
Convenient that you are "Ignoring child brides" because that is also not one of the accusations.
Texas AG even stated he will not prosecute polygamy (as if he could even if he wanted to).
The accusations deal strictly with forcing minors to marry and have children with adults. And every family that did that should lose custody of their kids.
You must like to type. You use so many words to make no point at all.
If the FLDS are kicking out minors, you should tell CPS, because that's not one of their accusations.
Convenient that you are "Ignoring child brides" because that is also not one of the accusations.
Texas AG even stated he will not prosecute polygamy (as if he could even if he wanted to).
The accusations deal strictly with forcing minors to marry and have children with adults. And every family that did that should lose custody of their kids.
You must like to type. You use so many words to make no point at all.
Anonymous | 3:16 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: good for the goose
"Renounce their religion?
Isn't that what Mormons have been asking other religions to do?"
Big difference between asking and telling Mr. Goose.
"Renounce their religion?
Isn't that what Mormons have been asking other religions to do?"
Big difference between asking and telling Mr. Goose.
FLDS legal effort | 3:21 p.m. May 14, 2008
It's shrewd of the FLDSers to trot out the non-polygamous families in these
lawsuits (see family photo)and on TV interviews (the Docstaders). When you look
at the Bishops family report they are the exception to the rule. Most men have
numerous wives listed ranging in ages 16 and up. We assume many wives were
younger than 16 when married. It's also facinating that so some men have
older wives and their children living in "Short Creek" while bringing
their younger, more nubile wives with them to YFZ. Take a look at the report.
I found it on the Eldorado Success newspaper website. Is this clear evidence of
polygamy? I believe Texas law says it's marriage if so stated...legal or
not. Start the prosecutions!
Anonymous | 3:34 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: where there's smoke
"Half the little girls were pregnant��
Girls aged 14-17. 27 of them are actually adults. CPS declared them minors so they could hold on to them long enough to snatch their babies when they gave birth.
"People gave multiple names and ages�."
CPS accused them. No corroboration.
"claiming 'God' status"
Not sure what you mean...
"Letting the legal process play out is the only way �"
Agree totally. How about letting the kids stay with their moms in the meantime?
"The DNA evidence may show that everything is on the up and up"
DNA evidence is disputable in court. Remember OJ. You don't think CPS will do it?
Try this: "CPS claims women exchanged cheek swabs�.
"All of the FLDS accounts I've read admit that abuses are going on."
You really expect anyone to believe FLDS are accusing THEMSELVES of abuse?
"If this process gets rid of a some of the child molesters, the FLDS will benefit."
Justice delayed is justice denied. In two years many of the little kids will not even remember their true mothers. I think that's the whole aim of CPS.
"Half the little girls were pregnant��
Girls aged 14-17. 27 of them are actually adults. CPS declared them minors so they could hold on to them long enough to snatch their babies when they gave birth.
"People gave multiple names and ages�."
CPS accused them. No corroboration.
"claiming 'God' status"
Not sure what you mean...
"Letting the legal process play out is the only way �"
Agree totally. How about letting the kids stay with their moms in the meantime?
"The DNA evidence may show that everything is on the up and up"
DNA evidence is disputable in court. Remember OJ. You don't think CPS will do it?
Try this: "CPS claims women exchanged cheek swabs�.
"All of the FLDS accounts I've read admit that abuses are going on."
You really expect anyone to believe FLDS are accusing THEMSELVES of abuse?
"If this process gets rid of a some of the child molesters, the FLDS will benefit."
Justice delayed is justice denied. In two years many of the little kids will not even remember their true mothers. I think that's the whole aim of CPS.
To Samme & Phil | 3:34 p.m. May 14, 2008
Thanks for your thoughts regarding "really confused".
Samme, yes to your question as to who might fit the bill. The "insert your favorite here" can pertain to many individuals who would presume to speak for and direct the actions of individuals based on either religious or secular interpretations of directives; because we mere mortals are too silly or uninformed to understand for ourselves. Does God need a middle-man?
Phil, not sure you understood the point. My assertion wasn't that one wrong justifies another. It is my opinion that when a human being claims to have the "red phone" to God (or another "absolute truth") - and proclaims that God chooses to reveal special things only to said human, so said human can convey them to me and I can adjust my behavior accordingly .... well, my point was that blind faith and following of any leader can run a person far afoul of where he/she might intend to be. The same goes for blindly following the doctrines of a politcal leader or party. The "prophet" and the CPS may be similarly well intentioned, yet their resulting actions are equally suspect. Just trying to get past the GOOD vs. EVIL theme.
Samme, yes to your question as to who might fit the bill. The "insert your favorite here" can pertain to many individuals who would presume to speak for and direct the actions of individuals based on either religious or secular interpretations of directives; because we mere mortals are too silly or uninformed to understand for ourselves. Does God need a middle-man?
Phil, not sure you understood the point. My assertion wasn't that one wrong justifies another. It is my opinion that when a human being claims to have the "red phone" to God (or another "absolute truth") - and proclaims that God chooses to reveal special things only to said human, so said human can convey them to me and I can adjust my behavior accordingly .... well, my point was that blind faith and following of any leader can run a person far afoul of where he/she might intend to be. The same goes for blindly following the doctrines of a politcal leader or party. The "prophet" and the CPS may be similarly well intentioned, yet their resulting actions are equally suspect. Just trying to get past the GOOD vs. EVIL theme.
Anonymous | 3:38 p.m. May 14, 2008
"Look at the family portrait of the Jessops. The dad looks related to the
mom."
Of course they look alike. They are ALL related. All one big happy family.
There are only about a dozen family lines in the whole FLDS community who have been inter-marrying for a hundred years.
That's why genetic defects such as Fumarase Deficiency are starting to crop up.
There are many, many cases of first cousins marrying first cousins, uncles marrying neices, and nephews marrying aunts.
Incest is just another of the many dirty little secrets that the FLDS don't want the rest of the world to know about.
Of course they look alike. They are ALL related. All one big happy family.
There are only about a dozen family lines in the whole FLDS community who have been inter-marrying for a hundred years.
That's why genetic defects such as Fumarase Deficiency are starting to crop up.
There are many, many cases of first cousins marrying first cousins, uncles marrying neices, and nephews marrying aunts.
Incest is just another of the many dirty little secrets that the FLDS don't want the rest of the world to know about.
odd | 3:44 p.m. May 14, 2008
What I find odd is that on the Bishop's record one man in his 60's was
"married" to a woman in her very late 70's.
Anonymous | 3:47 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: To Samme & Phil
You obviously didn't read the post about the Pope.
You just described Jesus Christ and every Catholic Pope in history.
So why not take away all the children of Catholic parents?
You obviously didn't read the post about the Pope.
You just described Jesus Christ and every Catholic Pope in history.
So why not take away all the children of Catholic parents?
To: Anonymous | 3:49 p.m. May 14, 2008
"DNA evidence is disputable in court. Remember OJ."
The DNA evidence in the OJ case was totally botched. If done correctly, DNA evidence is very reliable and will be able to match every child to his/her parents, IF the parents' DNA is in the samples taken.
If children have been traded to other parents, CPS is going to want proof of legal adoption or legal guardianship before returning those children.
For the FLDS sake, I hope they can produce such proof.
There have been reports that the parents of some of the children are living in Arizona, Utah and even Canada.
The DNA evidence in the OJ case was totally botched. If done correctly, DNA evidence is very reliable and will be able to match every child to his/her parents, IF the parents' DNA is in the samples taken.
If children have been traded to other parents, CPS is going to want proof of legal adoption or legal guardianship before returning those children.
For the FLDS sake, I hope they can produce such proof.
There have been reports that the parents of some of the children are living in Arizona, Utah and even Canada.
Brian | 3:57 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: Anonymous
"There are only about a dozen family lines in the whole FLDS community..."
This is a known sociological phenomenon. In any closed society, surnames disappear at a steady rate. That's why there are 93 Million Chens in China.
"That's why genetic defects such as Fumarase Deficiency are starting to crop up."
The Han Chinese and the Ashkenazic Jews also have certain genetic defects that are pervalent in their populations. Means nothing.
�There are many, many cases of first cousins marrying first cousins, uncles marrying neices, and nephews marrying aunts.�
Texas law on first cousins was passed after FLDS moved to Texas. Even now it is not illegal for first cousins, uncles neices etc. to have sex. And they can still get married with a court order. Of course, the FLDS can�t. No Texan judge would ever give THEM a court order.
"There are only about a dozen family lines in the whole FLDS community..."
This is a known sociological phenomenon. In any closed society, surnames disappear at a steady rate. That's why there are 93 Million Chens in China.
"That's why genetic defects such as Fumarase Deficiency are starting to crop up."
The Han Chinese and the Ashkenazic Jews also have certain genetic defects that are pervalent in their populations. Means nothing.
�There are many, many cases of first cousins marrying first cousins, uncles marrying neices, and nephews marrying aunts.�
Texas law on first cousins was passed after FLDS moved to Texas. Even now it is not illegal for first cousins, uncles neices etc. to have sex. And they can still get married with a court order. Of course, the FLDS can�t. No Texan judge would ever give THEM a court order.
Agree With Stop It | 3:57 p.m. May 14, 2008
There may indeed be a time to compare some US governmental agency actions to
those of the Nazis.
But if we throw that word out any time we don't agree with the government's actions...then it just won't have much of an impact when/if Nazi-like atrocities do occur.
Additionally, to compare what's happening to the FLDS to what happened to the holocaust victims is disingenuous and disgusting.
This isn't the time for speculation or inflammatory remarks. This is a time to hold our government accountable for actual justice regarding the lives of specific individuals. None of us can pretend we know, at this point, what justice will look like in each of these individual cases. Opinions are good, questions are great, discussion and discourse are democratic & educational - but simply screeching previously held convictions doesn't help anyone or any cause.
But if we throw that word out any time we don't agree with the government's actions...then it just won't have much of an impact when/if Nazi-like atrocities do occur.
Additionally, to compare what's happening to the FLDS to what happened to the holocaust victims is disingenuous and disgusting.
This isn't the time for speculation or inflammatory remarks. This is a time to hold our government accountable for actual justice regarding the lives of specific individuals. None of us can pretend we know, at this point, what justice will look like in each of these individual cases. Opinions are good, questions are great, discussion and discourse are democratic & educational - but simply screeching previously held convictions doesn't help anyone or any cause.
Anonymous | 4:04 p.m. May 14, 2008
To: FLDS legal effort
"Most men have numerous wives listed ranging in ages 16 and up"
A Lie.
Youngest polyg wife is 17. Next youngest is 19. Next is 24. Oldest is 79.
One lie and your whole post is suspect and should be ignored.
"Most men have numerous wives listed ranging in ages 16 and up"
A Lie.
Youngest polyg wife is 17. Next youngest is 19. Next is 24. Oldest is 79.
One lie and your whole post is suspect and should be ignored.
re Sobbing Child | 4:07 p.m. May 14, 2008
while you were at captivefldschildren, I do hope you visited the Donate page and
set the one message that gets heard - money into their legal defense fund.
Writing letters doesn't matter (hey, White House already lost the one they
hand delivered, and Perry did not even respond). The only way for you to make a
difference is to make their fund grow to a very large pile. If each of you
outraged by this controbutes soem and gets a handful of your friends tdo the
same, it will happen. That will send a chill down some spines. These parents
need a large number of very good lawyers who know how to deal with the system.
This is now in the court system. This will take a large pile of money,
multiplied by 450.
to: where there's smoke | 4:10 p.m. May 14, 2008
been to a theatre last night. There was smoke several times, but no fire. It was
all smoke an mirrors. Carefully produced by professional smoke makers.
re: Texan | 8:34 a.m. May 14, 20 | 4:15 p.m. May 14, 2008
"None of this will matter. Texas has already won. It's over."
Lets hope its not over for your sake, becouse if Texas has won, the U.S.A has lost, I dont think its over, I think its Just starting
Lets hope its not over for your sake, becouse if Texas has won, the U.S.A has lost, I dont think its over, I think its Just starting
wrz | 4:18 p.m. May 14, 2008
"So, if my religion practices human sacrifice, does that mean I am exempt
from murder because my religion mandates I kill?"
My advise to you, if your religion practices human sacrifice, is to leave.
"Sorry there is a line and that line is if a religion practices anything falling outside of the law then the members of that religion are in violation of the law and can be convicted accordingly."
So, if the government passes a law that says you can't wear a Christian Crucifix the government can arrest you?
"Just ask Warren Jeffs, he'll tell you all about it."
Jeffs should be acquitted on appeal since there is no proven rape.
"You may think you're above the law and chosen by God, but you still live in a land with laws that is going to hold you accountable for those laws."
The Constitution says that there can be NO LAWS regarding religion or the free practice thereof.
"Bottom line, the FLDS are guilty of polygamy, fraud, kidnapping, tax-evasion, and acquiring property under false pretense and they should be prosecuted accordingly."
Call Texas and tell them it's over. They won.
My advise to you, if your religion practices human sacrifice, is to leave.
"Sorry there is a line and that line is if a religion practices anything falling outside of the law then the members of that religion are in violation of the law and can be convicted accordingly."
So, if the government passes a law that says you can't wear a Christian Crucifix the government can arrest you?
"Just ask Warren Jeffs, he'll tell you all about it."
Jeffs should be acquitted on appeal since there is no proven rape.
"You may think you're above the law and chosen by God, but you still live in a land with laws that is going to hold you accountable for those laws."
The Constitution says that there can be NO LAWS regarding religion or the free practice thereof.
"Bottom line, the FLDS are guilty of polygamy, fraud, kidnapping, tax-evasion, and acquiring property under false pretense and they should be prosecuted accordingly."
Call Texas and tell them it's over. They won.
Let's hope for the best | 4:20 p.m. May 14, 2008
IF they can develop charges against individuals and make them stick I will
praise Texas for what they've done.
I fear the over-zealous and obviously pre-judicial attitude that got this started combined with the decision to cast a very broad net (assuming all FLDS people are guilty of something) will make it harder to get convictions.
CPS made a fool of the judge who signed the search warrant for them based on bogus information (signing warrants that later turn out to be based on junk intel, especially when it becomes clear the person asking for the Warrant AND the judge knew the intel used to get the warrant was bogus) is a big no-no for judges. It makes them look bad (not intelegent, not impartial, etc, all the things a judge needs to be a judge). So future judges will not be as cooperative with CPS and may even lean the other way.
I just hope their cases can withstand all the mistakes they are making. Mistakes made early in a case can be fatal when they eventually go to court and the defense-lawyers tear them apart. In court lawyers make it about the mistakes instead of the crimes.
I fear the over-zealous and obviously pre-judicial attitude that got this started combined with the decision to cast a very broad net (assuming all FLDS people are guilty of something) will make it harder to get convictions.
CPS made a fool of the judge who signed the search warrant for them based on bogus information (signing warrants that later turn out to be based on junk intel, especially when it becomes clear the person asking for the Warrant AND the judge knew the intel used to get the warrant was bogus) is a big no-no for judges. It makes them look bad (not intelegent, not impartial, etc, all the things a judge needs to be a judge). So future judges will not be as cooperative with CPS and may even lean the other way.
I just hope their cases can withstand all the mistakes they are making. Mistakes made early in a case can be fatal when they eventually go to court and the defense-lawyers tear them apart. In court lawyers make it about the mistakes instead of the crimes.
a peculiar people | 4:24 p.m. May 14, 2008
No matter how you cut it, the overall perception of Mormons in mainstream
America is just as negative as it always has bee and always will be.
re Phil in NC | 4:24 p.m. May 14, 2008
Yes, I think all homeschoolers should be watching this every minute and try to
do something about it. I home school and can attest to the fear of the CPS that
exists in the community. Just about every homeshooling family I know pays into
the Home School Legal Defense Association fund. And it is not out of a paranoia,
or to deal with speeding tickets. Stories abound.
Check out captivefldschildren dot org site and see if you can donate to their fund. Try to bring this to other home schooler's attention. I think that is the best way to help these folks. I have absolutely no sympathy for abuse, but there are no charges of anything, "you can all go home, but we will keep your chidren" Well, isn't that a parent's worst nightmare ? Who needs jails when this can be done to people ? And this thing is getting even worse with each passing day, as details emerge. That testimony of mental health workers is just incredible. This is being done to Americans in America ? Just like that ?
Check out captivefldschildren dot org site and see if you can donate to their fund. Try to bring this to other home schooler's attention. I think that is the best way to help these folks. I have absolutely no sympathy for abuse, but there are no charges of anything, "you can all go home, but we will keep your chidren" Well, isn't that a parent's worst nightmare ? Who needs jails when this can be done to people ? And this thing is getting even worse with each passing day, as details emerge. That testimony of mental health workers is just incredible. This is being done to Americans in America ? Just like that ?
Wife #2 | 4:26 p.m. May 14, 2008
Reading about these children being taken and seeing the pictures of obvious
treacherous kidnapping by the state makes me physically sick. Especially when
99.9% of these children live in happy, healthy homes. Polygamy does NOT equal
abuse! Raising children in a gay household does NOT equal abuse! Raising
children in a society that has values different than the majority does NOT equal
abuse! I look at the videos of mother handing over their children to CPS workers
and I ask myself how come they aren't fighting? I don't know the
answer but I know this: I am NOT FLDS, but someone comes to take my kids
they'll have to do it after they pry the gun out of my cold dead fingers. I
choose to live in America for a reason.
wrz | 4:30 p.m. May 14, 2008
"OK, WRZ, that means as long as I say it's about religion, I can rape
and pillage as I please?"
Rape? Are you getting this from court proceedings... or is it hearsay?
Pillage? I think the Texas CPS is the prime pillager here.
"I can throw teen-age boys out in the street..."
If you've raised teen boys this procedure is awful tempting.
"...and force girls to marry grandfathers and have babies when they are still teen-agers?"
You mean like Baby Jesus, who's mother was reportedly 14?
"I can, because I am the "prophet," take one man's family and give it to another man..."
If that occurs take your family and leave. Nothing stopping you.
"...order young girls to marry their cousins?"
If they do, then sue... and write a book. Like Elissa Wall (reported in the DNews today). Could make you wealthy and famous.
Rape? Are you getting this from court proceedings... or is it hearsay?
Pillage? I think the Texas CPS is the prime pillager here.
"I can throw teen-age boys out in the street..."
If you've raised teen boys this procedure is awful tempting.
"...and force girls to marry grandfathers and have babies when they are still teen-agers?"
You mean like Baby Jesus, who's mother was reportedly 14?
"I can, because I am the "prophet," take one man's family and give it to another man..."
If that occurs take your family and leave. Nothing stopping you.
"...order young girls to marry their cousins?"
If they do, then sue... and write a book. Like Elissa Wall (reported in the DNews today). Could make you wealthy and famous.
G | 4:34 p.m. May 14, 2008
"It's been more than a month since this all started and yet there are
no charges being filed. I think that Texas better put up, or return the
children. Where is the evidence that there was law breaking going on? Heaven
help those that destroy families."
That's because in order to have a criminal case you need FACTS. Not the speculation and innuendo CPS shamelessly feeds the press.
I'm not predicting that nobody will end in jail over this--if you have a 1% abuse rate and CPS takes 400 kids somebody will end up behind bars. But it sounds like Texas is spinning its wheels.
This could also be hard to prosecute, given that FLDS has only been in Texas a few years. A lot of the alleged abuse, if real, probably happened in other states.
That's because in order to have a criminal case you need FACTS. Not the speculation and innuendo CPS shamelessly feeds the press.
I'm not predicting that nobody will end in jail over this--if you have a 1% abuse rate and CPS takes 400 kids somebody will end up behind bars. But it sounds like Texas is spinning its wheels.
This could also be hard to prosecute, given that FLDS has only been in Texas a few years. A lot of the alleged abuse, if real, probably happened in other states.
Anonymous | 4:38 p.m. May 14, 2008
Living proof that Mormons will be run out of every state (but Utah)if they
don't stop practicing polygamy.
re new Anonymous | 4:42 p.m. May 14, 2008
Pope? Yes, I did read the post and yes I did intentionally potentially describe
the Pope and Jesus (and Mohammed, Buddha, and even that guy living in AZ right
now who swears he is the Messiah) ... IF, and this is the important part here,
IF people take their words as something to be blindly followed without
individual question, reflection or reason; usurping one's own personal
relationship with God ... that is the topic I was discussing.
You ask: "Why not take away all the catholic kids?", I'll add Muslim kids, Hindu kids etc, etc. You're mixing up issues here. The religion of these FLDS kids or parents really has nothing to do with the criminal allegations. Though I will admit that the two issues are intertwined to an extent that it makes discussion difficult.
I was lifting up the notion for conversation that either a government or a religion can (left unchecked) commit atrocities in the name of righteousness. It has happened many times in the past and will continue to happen as long as we are willing to be blindly lead by other human beings.
You ask: "Why not take away all the catholic kids?", I'll add Muslim kids, Hindu kids etc, etc. You're mixing up issues here. The religion of these FLDS kids or parents really has nothing to do with the criminal allegations. Though I will admit that the two issues are intertwined to an extent that it makes discussion difficult.
I was lifting up the notion for conversation that either a government or a religion can (left unchecked) commit atrocities in the name of righteousness. It has happened many times in the past and will continue to happen as long as we are willing to be blindly lead by other human beings.
D | 4:55 p.m. May 14, 2008
I'm praying God does something for these dear people because the
Constitution is being so stomped upon. I want to cry and cry and cry for these
mothers and families...
Justice, justice, justice! Let there be justice! CPS and the State of Texas has some major apologies and compensations to make and they will never ever make amends for these outrages crimes against the American civilians...Just like they can never make amends for the deaths at Waco, what thing was in their plan originally.
God will vindicate His own, maybe sooner than we think!
Let them alone, unless they broke the law, first prove that! Fire the lousy, and I do mean super-lousy judge who is a criminal in breaking the laws of the land. Hooray! Mental Health personelle and CPS should be shamed for firing them for telling the truth!
Justice, justice, justice! Let there be justice! CPS and the State of Texas has some major apologies and compensations to make and they will never ever make amends for these outrages crimes against the American civilians...Just like they can never make amends for the deaths at Waco, what thing was in their plan originally.
God will vindicate His own, maybe sooner than we think!
Let them alone, unless they broke the law, first prove that! Fire the lousy, and I do mean super-lousy judge who is a criminal in breaking the laws of the land. Hooray! Mental Health personelle and CPS should be shamed for firing them for telling the truth!
to Anonymous | 4:55 p.m. May 14, 2008
on dont believe them:
I really don't care why CPS took the children - just that they took them out of there. I don't agree with the heavy-handedness, but it needed to be done. These children were being abused. Maybe not the way everyone else is looking at it, but these parents were taking away these childrens future. What don't you get? Instead of worrying about the parents rights, why don't you think of the childrens rights? Cuz you're FLDS, thats why. We can tell.
And I wouldn't even mind if CPS didn't do it. Send in the Seabees to knock down the wall and guardtower (that was built to keep them in, not to keep us out.) Make the children go outside the walls 2 afternoons a week. I don't care. These kids deserve a future and staying in that compound was taking every bit of future away. They were to become enslaved by the only people they trust (since they are told every day from birth that everyone else is evil.) You get my point this time? I hope so, because maybe now you can explain it to your friends at the ranch in Texas.
I really don't care why CPS took the children - just that they took them out of there. I don't agree with the heavy-handedness, but it needed to be done. These children were being abused. Maybe not the way everyone else is looking at it, but these parents were taking away these childrens future. What don't you get? Instead of worrying about the parents rights, why don't you think of the childrens rights? Cuz you're FLDS, thats why. We can tell.
And I wouldn't even mind if CPS didn't do it. Send in the Seabees to knock down the wall and guardtower (that was built to keep them in, not to keep us out.) Make the children go outside the walls 2 afternoons a week. I don't care. These kids deserve a future and staying in that compound was taking every bit of future away. They were to become enslaved by the only people they trust (since they are told every day from birth that everyone else is evil.) You get my point this time? I hope so, because maybe now you can explain it to your friends at the ranch in Texas.
Loodie | 4:57 p.m. May 14, 2008
Re: good for the goose
FLDS members are NOT, I repeat NOT, MORMONS. They are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, anymore than Baptists are Catholics!!!!
FLDS members are NOT, I repeat NOT, MORMONS. They are not members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, anymore than Baptists are Catholics!!!!
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Rene Haas
Clockwise from top, a family portrait of Joseph Steed Jessop Sr., Lori Jessop and their children; Ziana Glo Jessop, 4; Joseph Edson Jessop, 2; and Joseph Steed Jessop Jr., who turns 1 on Thursday. The FLDS family went to court to block the separation of the mother and infant child.
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Constitution. What does it say?<<
It says: "Congress (and the includes governments at all levels including federal, state, and local agencies such as CPS) shall make no law (and that includes rules, regulations, procedures, requirements, etc.) respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." Article I
It also says: "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated..." Article IV
That's what it says.