Deseret News | Texas says all YFZ kids at risk

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Texas says all YFZ kids at risk

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You go Doug | 9:33 p.m. May 10, 2008

These people do not "get it" because they don't want to. It is easier to jump up and down and scream "religious persecution" than it is to admit that religion has nothing to do with it. This is not a religious group. It is an organization that thrives on pediophilia, child abuse, brainwashing, and whatever else they can twist around to try to justify their deviant behavior. I think that all of the inbreeding, incest and other sickening behaviours have wiped out too many brain cells for these people to see reality.

To J-Man | 9:40 p.m. May 10, 2008

I think that Merrill must be warming up the launch pad in Colorado City, hoping that he will be "lifted off. Come to think of it, the pad may be getting kind of crowded. Most of the men with any kind of authority from the YFZ ranch seemed to have cleared out. Might be worth checking out.

Some Religion | 9:51 p.m. May 10, 2008

This is not a religion, it's a lifestyle under fire. An illegal lifestyle...forced marriage, child abuse, false imprisonment, child abandonment to name a few.

Comments continue below

Angels and Doom | 9:52 p.m. May 10, 2008

Religion poisons everything.

wrz | 10:06 p.m. May 10, 2008

"It's sad that the LDS aren't trying to help these people, rather than kick and spit on them in this disaster; how low, how sad."

The LDS Church has tried and tried to help these people for a hundred years or more, by telling them they are headed down the wrong path... to little or no avail.

K | 10:18 p.m. May 10, 2008

Their mother's aren't raising them. They are being communally raised. That's what is so sad. Did you see the rooms? An obviously adult woman in every room with bunk beds for 4 or more children, some of which are hers and other's not. Some had full beds and bunk beds. Where do you think the consumations took place? An adult in every room yet so many pregnancies of teenage girls with that kind of supervision?
So many families reassigned? I wouldn't be surprised if some kids have no direct parent on the ranch. Particularly those of the still teenage mom's maybe brought in from elsewhere when they "married". Where are all the teenage boys?
Religion isn't an excuse for child sexual abuse.

kk | 10:28 p.m. May 10, 2008

Gosh, in general society, so many girls getting preggo underage, we give them federally funded abortions without parental notification, and all the free contraceptives they want. Is TX CPS so concerned about this dangerous belief system??

As for FLDS, prosecute the lawbreakers, and give the kids back to their mothers! Remember what Janet Reno and the FEDs did to get little Elian Gonzalez back to his mother?

No evidence? | 10:29 p.m. May 10, 2008

FLDS lifestyle is well documented by ex-FLDSer Deloy Bateman and escapees such as Carolyn Jessop, Flora Jessop and many others who have left over the years. The fact that they had to "escape" in the middle of the night in the first place tells you something. These are brave individuals who have gone against everything they have been brought up to believe. They now understand that obeying a false prophet will ruin your life. So quit saying that there's no evidence....at this point they are still gathering data and assessing what they know in the interest of protecting the children. Hopefully this move will force the group to rethink the way they've been doing things or high tail it to Mexico.

Prophecy | 10:40 p.m. May 10, 2008

Before President Wilford Woodruff issued the Manifesto in 1890, prohibiting the pioneer practice of polygamy, he spent much time in prayer. He records that he saw in a dream (you could call it a vision) what would happen if the practice of polygamy were continued--families broken up, the coming of armed men against the people, temples being taken from the people's control. It is interesting that the members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who listened and believed President Woodruff and obeyed his counsel, have not seen this come to pass. BUT the people who refused to listen, those who now call themselves the Fundamentalist LDS, have seen exactly what was prophecied happen.
I have compassion on individual FLDS, but no sympathy with the practices that are illegal and abusive which some of them have followed. I pray for the children.

Bruce | 10:43 p.m. May 10, 2008

"The LDS Church has tried and tried to help these people for a hundred years or more, by telling them they are headed down the wrong path... to little or no avail."

That's correct. What the LDS church has not tried is embracing them as brothers and sisters that share a common heritage.
It all goes back to a disagreement over a revelation recieved by President Taylor. I think that I have made the mistake of a lifetime in limiting myself to the LDS version of the arguement but, since this fiasco, I have open-mindedly researched the history and found that both sides have very legitimate claims.
The LDS church has the clout to reach out and help these peaceful people. What is the First Presidency doing besides reading the news?
As an inactive ex-elders quorum president (disillusioned by the church's secularism), I would encourage any and all to drop the hate, prayerfuly read the history (from both sides), and encourage your church leaders to get off the fence in this matter.
Forget what church member is currently on American Idol and stand up for what is right for a change..even if it's not polically correct.

religion | 10:48 p.m. May 10, 2008

its NOT about religion. look at the texas cps site under "aboutDFPS" then "Financial and Budget Information" $1,137,058,330 for 2009. WOW

Fellow Americans | 10:57 p.m. May 10, 2008

It come to this, Conviction before Investigation, if we lose our civil rights over this issue we donï¿½t deserve them, so ether way you look at it Justice will prevail. I have seen many posts throwing out hate words and accusations, with no evidence to back them up, do you not see without evidence itï¿½s not a fact and it just makes you look like a fool. Please for the good of all readers donï¿½t post unless you have evidence to support your clam. I suggest you look up on You Tube to the audio clip from Mike Savage, and the one from Napolitano, as much as I donï¿½t like arguing talk show hosts, these guys made more sense than any newspaper I have read on this subject.
No American likes abuse, and no Americans likes Human rights being violated, whether you see it or not we are all on the same side. All we ask is that we investigate BEFORE we convict.

hate | 11:05 p.m. May 10, 2008

Its about time we got somebody in this country we could legaly hate again

Mahershalalhashbaz | 11:10 p.m. May 10, 2008

No one here is saying that marrying underage girls or molestation is good. We are outraged that they have not been given a fair speedy trial. Guilty or not, we demand to see that they get a fair and speedy trial by jury!

Under Attack | 11:40 p.m. May 10, 2008

This is not a Religion or a lifestyle under attack; it is a Constitution and a Bill of Right under attack. Plain and simple. Does it matter which minority they are using to attack us with?
If The State would simply follow there own rules, the Public would support them in there efforts.

Jacquie | 12:06 a.m. May 11, 2008

If Warren Jeffs conviction does not convince you that the FLDS belief system fosters abuse I don't know what will. This belief system places no more value on women that many third world countries. They are property to be used for the sexual gratification of a bunch of old men to give birth to children without having any choice in the matter. Some of you speak of "freedom to practice one's religion" how about the groups that believe in human or animal sacrifice? is that alright? after all that is a part of their belief system. This group requires absolute obedience to their so called prophet even if that involves giving an underage girl to an old man without her consent. Though it will be difficult for those raised in this closed society at least they might be able to make their own choices. This group flaunts the law with their so called "plural marriages". If you ever research this group you will see that it is evil to the core as is their prophet. It is obvious that some of your readers have not left polygamy very far behind to approve of this group.

Paradigm Shift | 12:07 a.m. May 11, 2008

I'd accept 'dangerous behavior', but 'belief' is persecution. It takes a lot to come back from a statement like that to prove that it is nothing to do with religion.

I wouldn't support the FLDS actions in a million years. HOWEVER, there is a lot going against Texas here..

First they knowingly searched a ranch with a warrant allowed because of a phone call from Colorado. This is not our legal system. Then someone makes a statement regarding 'dangerous beliefs'.

I understand that Legal or Not isn't always what's right or not. But while it IS CURRENTLY the law not to search the ranch without a VALID warrant given for VALID legal support; it's the law to not judge any beliefs as crime. Then follow the law as written as a BARE MINIMUM requirement.

Constituency | 12:11 a.m. May 11, 2008

The FLDS have no constituency other than delusional like minded souls. That lack of constituency is one reason Texas Government can and will get away with what they have done to these people. Every other thinking secular or non-secular group can usually get away with whatever they want to do as long as enough important someone(s) is(are) sympathetic to their philosophy/practice.

Dan | 12:11 a.m. May 11, 2008

If people live in sin and abuse children in the process they will soon or later pay a BIG price. God will not let his children be abused without eventually punishing the ones who are responsible for the abuse---that being the FLDS.

talk is cheap, money talks | 2:05 a.m. May 11, 2008

Folks, so many words here. And we are still awaiting some evidence or criminal charges. Go do something in meantime. Google "captive flds children", check out the site that pops up on top. The other side has set up some interesting evidence, including pictures, videos, and even a letter to President Bush, hand delivered at his ranch. And if you remain convinced they have a leg to stand on, they have a Donate page there. Money talks, talk is cheap. The most efective way for you to make a difference is to get their legal fund explode with money. Get a few friends involved, and watch it happen. That's how a horrified silent majority votes - with their dollars. That alone will send a message, and in meantime it will help FLDS parents fight the impossible battle they have on their hands. DO you know there is no right to appeal to that mass hearing that had their kids removed ? They might be fighting your battle too, whether they like it or not. They have no choice. You (still) have one. You can choose to stand behind other Americans who insist on their rights. Ot you may not.

to Morrison | 2:30 a.m. May 11, 2008

I don't know that the men are in any hiding, much less like rats. Many have apparently moved across the state to be closer to their captive kids and get some visitation. One guy went to court on Friday, driver's license and birth certificate in hand, to argue for release of his 22-year old wife and two children. Wife's due to have a baby on Saturday. He went away empty handed, she remains a "disputed minor". There is a Canadian 17-year-old girl there, whose parents flew from Canada but were not even allowed to see her. They are asked to prove she is not an underage bride trafficked across the border. Well how do you do that ? They say she was visiting relatives. Is she going to be one of those "children whose parents are not even at the ranch" and put up for ADOPTION by some Texas couple ? Why don't you go google "captive flds children" and go the the first site that comes up. See what you think. Maybe decide to donate to their legal defense fund while you are there.

Anonymous | 8:13 a.m. May 11, 2008

I still haven't seen a single charge filed. Isn't that a little fishy to anyone?

ozark_atty | 8:24 a.m. May 11, 2008

The problem is, that the CPS operates under Civil Law, laws that originally were intended to settle property disputes, thus they have none of the burden of proof that criminal laws require.
Civil Laws has been grossly stitched into the family court - where they wield powers -and defacto sentences - beyond those which the worst criminal courts could dream of - separations of families, denial of visits, imposition of wage garnsihments, All very severe penalties - delivered at best on the whim of a judge; at worst - and more commonly -to placate political demands of frankenstien angencies like the CPS.
Family law should be reigned in - and require all the proofs and protections of criminal law, organisations like the CPS have created a judicial-civil monster that needs to be dismantled.
What is passing for family court in Texas could reasonably be termed a 'kangaroo court system' under any definition.
By Definition: "Kangaroo courts are judicial proceedings that deny due process in the name of expediency." this is Precisely what is happening in Texas, and is the cause of all the conflict on boards like this one.

Diane | 9:34 a.m. May 11, 2008

The whole FLDS cult smells fishy to me. wheeeewwwweeeee!

H | 9:52 a.m. May 11, 2008

forcing teenage girls to marry and have sex and have children is wrong. period. the state of texas is completely justified in what they've done. religious freedom does not give one the freedom to do whatever one likes. teenage pregnancy and marriage are ABNORMAL practices. just because one can cite examples of these independently, in this country or any other, does not justify them. (thailand????? please.) if any of you really doubt this, find every teenage girl you know, and inform them that their only option as of today is marriage to a forty-year-old, and immediate impregnation. don't you wish you could go back in time (ladies), and do it yourselves? notice i haven't mentioned religion yet. that's because it isn't relevant. if the authorities had raided a moose lodge, i doubt many of you would have piped up. it has nothing to do with religion; but if it must be, the flds are wrong. you, as lds members, know this. the flds don't come to church. they don't know what free agency means. there's a reason why God doesn't make anybody do anything. get over yourselves and your politics. these are children.

k | 10:03 a.m. May 11, 2008

Finding proof that someone is a victim of a crime is a lot easier than getting a criminal conviction against the bad guys.
I wouldn't be surprised if nobody is prosecuted. It's like trying to get a DUI conviction where the accused refuses a blood alcohol test.

To: Jacquie | 10:18 a.m. May 11, 2008

Actually, yes the Supreme Court has allowed sacrifice of animals as a protected right! Sorry you don't agree but this is America.

Do you know what else they ruled? Children can not be removed because of the beliefs they are taught - only from the actions of the parents.

The District Court Judge had a duty to follow these rulings. The fact she blatantly disregarded these shows that she has no respect for the Federal Government.

To: Ozark Atty | 1:29 p.m. May 11, 2008

The conflict on this board is MOSTLY caused by the FLDS's propaganda machine trying to revive Short Creek and running head on into common sense.

Ronnie Bray | 1:43 p.m. May 11, 2008

After all is said and done, the question remains whether any children have been abused, and, if so, whether any other children remain at risk of being abused.

The best time to judge is when all the evidence is in, but not before.

When a social welfare agency neglects to investigate allegations or suspicions of child abuse and the child in question is either seriously harmed or killed, then the cry is, "Why didn't they do something?" Texas is at least doing something.

The question is, "Is there abuse, past, present, or future?" And, whatever your position it is well to remember that that is the main issue, and all the rest is mere commentary.

JJ | 3:49 p.m. May 11, 2008

This is a State approved religious witch hunt. While there are good people in Texas, it isn't a place where one will feel comfortable if you don't belong to one of the few majority religions. My job takes me through Texas for extended periods several times a year. I have never experienced such bigoted or ignorant intolerance in my life as I have there. Once I declined invitations to attend various religious activities, explained that I would be attending my own church and revealed which church it was, one would have thought I had advocated ritual human sacrifice. Last time I checked it wasn't part of the Russian Orthodox Church, but hey, I guess I have yet to be "Saved" by the proper authorities.

It amazes me to see so many people fall for the propaganda CPS throws about and how many condemn with such hatred while ignoring any proofs that may contradict their preconceived beliefs about the case. Check out the San Antonio article about what the health workers hired to assist the women and children have to say. It may prove a bit enlightening.

zoar | 6:54 p.m. May 11, 2008

This is not about religion nor is it about abuse. It is about trampling on the constitution in order to punish the guilty. Not all of those 463 children have been abused nor are all the parents guilty of any abuse.
Yet they are kept in foster homes for their security. That is like making the fox in charge of guarding the hen house.

titania | 2:36 a.m. May 12, 2008

we do "groom young girls" for sex. But we also groom them to say no. FLDS teaches girls they can't say no. They are to be meek and keep sweet and accept reassignment from husband to husband.

In mainstream society only 10% of girls become pregnant as teens, not 30%. But in FLDS over 30% do, because there's nothing else in life for them to do.

Every family, if the prophet ordered them to marry their 13-year-old daughter off, or dump their 14-year-old son off alone in the city with no money, would do it without hestitation. How do you deal with that?

Multiply that child by 30. That's 60 guilty parents (not counting sister-wives.) And as many as 30 guilty husbands. How, exactly, do you follow procedure with the 30 abused girls, without ending up taking children away from everybody?

Add to that the fact that most of the little boys are going to be dumped before they're 18, and these families are being investigated for child abandonment, neglect, and abuse because of the boys.

Anonymous | 2:42 a.m. May 12, 2008

Sorry-now it's something like 50 girls that were pregnant or had kids underage. That's way more than 5% of this group--more like 30%.

When every girl has 5 or 6 parents, and 50 girls were abused, forced into sex and childbirth at too young an age, who's left in the community, that isn't an accomplice? I saw maybe 4 couples in the whole Bishop's report, who looked innocent of statutory rape.

But it would have been better to order the men off the ranch--if only they had their names.

The Constitution must prevail | 10:14 a.m. May 12, 2008

Two of the last three paragraphs are legally persuasive. You cannot extrapolate to an entire population from a small percentage (5%).

Due process was absent in this case and the court of appeals must so rule or it will make a mockery of the justice system. If the Court of Appeals does not rule properly a superior court will surely reverse.

Red | 10:22 a.m. May 12, 2008

gal50: "CPS truly does not know the names of the parents of these children."

Sad indictment of Texas bureaucrats' competence, if true.

All they have to do is read the affadavit filed by the FLDS moms in their appeal of the Walther malfeasance.

Each mom's kids are listed.

Valery | 12:35 p.m. May 12, 2008

I agree with SHADOW!

sosueme | 7:13 a.m. May 13, 2008

Is this our country? Are we the people so stupid that we can not see that if we allow this to happen we are as guilty as any abuser? The texas cps and the judge and the sheriff that presented this call as evidence, should all be fired, and those children should go back to their parents RIGHT NOW. This is enough time talking, someone has got to organize and get these children back home with parents who love them now. The constitution of our great nation is not here for bushes interpitation or anyone elses. It stands on its own and is the law we live by in this great country. It covers all people no matter what religion they are , what colour thay are and damn it please someone tell us what we can do to stop this travisty on the flds people? I am not flds and not one of you had better call me a pro baby raper it is not up to any of you to decide it is up to an impartial judge and I do not think walthers is qualified. Now as americans we are duty bound to stop this.

Sally | 5:02 p.m. May 13, 2008

But, Sosueme, there is NOTHING WE CAN DO. The State has spoken. If you speak too loudly, then you are FOR the FLDS and against the government and you need to fear for your own children.

I think is why so many Regular Mormons do not speak up.. they are watching and they see their own history repeating itself. I do NOT expect the LDS church to officially say anything, but the members - they watch and wonder and worry.

Interested | 9:44 p.m. May 13, 2008

The decision by CPS do define the entire community as one family is astounding. It is an interpretation of the power given to CPS that was never forcasted. Also and equally astounding is the ruling that CPS has made in regard to religous beliefs and those beliefs being the cause of imminent danger to the young children.
These things are a clear example of a branch of the government overstepping it bounds and deciding within it self how much power it has.
Where is the balance of power that our government is supposed to have built into it?
I agree with previous posters: if we allow this to happen within our nation we are responsible for the results that will follow. We need to all go to our state legislatures and change the power we have so foolishly given to CPS. This and many other cases show clearly that they have overstepped the bounds that we intended when first we set out to do something about child abuse.
Now we have many proven cases of abuse comming from CPS and their agents.
Let's step forward and change these things.

Re Interested | 8:58 a.m. May 14, 2008

First:
The decision was made by FLDS when they did not sub-divide their property. One piece of property = one home/family. It does make a difference.

Second:
CPS has "overstepped" for many years. If they decide you are a bad parent only they can decide you are "OK" to parent. If you have a CPS case against you ONLY someone at CPS can clear you. They police themselves which is VERY dangerous.

Third:
I am VERY much against child abuse! I hate the thought of any child being forced to marry or be homeless. That said the "reasons" to keep the children are quickly turning into religious reasons. That is a great concern to me. I am not interested in removing constitutional rights for any CPS action. I will not stand by and watch the US Constitution as it is being destroyed.

To the FLDS | 9:00 a.m. May 14, 2008

I WILL NOT SEND YOU ANY MONEY!!!

You and your leaders are wrong! I am only sorry that as a direct result of the obvious bigotry in this case your children and possibly many others will now be left to unrighteous dominion and abuse. The Supreme Court Justices will have no choice but to tie the hands of CPS.

Mike Richards | 1:50 p.m. May 14, 2008

I've been casually browsing the Internet since Texas decided that it was legal to take children from families when the State could clearly see that those children would someday grow up to be 'problem' people in their society.

Some of the things that I've found:

San Angelo, Texas, where the raid on the FLDS compound took place was noted for prostitution, gambling and saloons. It was a place where military officers could not walk its streets after dark.

San Angelo, Texas has a higher teenage birthrate than other Texas communities, and Texas ranks among the highest in the nation.

Texas had 101 teenage pregnancies per 1,000 in 2000 while Utah had 53 per 1,000.

Texas had 69 births per 1,000 teenagers in 2000 while Utah had 39 per 1,000.

Texas had 17 abortions per 1,000 teenagers in 2000 while Utah had 6 per 1,000.

What the numbers mean is that Texas cannot raise its own children. It cannot teach them to properly conduct themselves. It cannot keep them from violating themselves. And yet, Texas has decided that it can enforce its lifestyle on others. The hypocrisy is unbelievable.

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